Requests for clarification and amendment

Initiated by Ferahgo the Assassin at 21:14, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected

Race and intelligence arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Ferahgo the Assassin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by Ferahgo the Assassin

Note: I am making this request as per the recommendation I received from the Arbitration Committee Mailing List, after having contacted the list with this question. I will repost the relevant bits of the question I emailed them below, with personally identifying information redacted.

I was recently included as a party on a Clarification Request that was declined and closed without my participation. The clarification request concerned the scope of the Race and Intelligence topic ban, which also applies to me. (The current version of my editing restrictions can be found here) My understanding of my topic ban is that I am prohibited from editing articles related to "the race and intelligence topic, broadly construed".

What is covered under "broadly construed"? I am concerned about whether editing pages related to the "heritability of psychological traits” is considered to be a violation, or even the “psychometrics of intelligence” on its own. My understanding since my restrictions were given was that I was only prohibited from editing topics concerning both “race” and “intelligence”.

I should mention that my real-life circumstances have changed considerably since my restrictions were given. I'm now in my second year of the Ph.D program in behavior genetics at a prestigious university. My research specifically involves the heritability of intelligence, which so far has been very well received by my peers. (I sent the mailing list a link to an award I’ve received for my research.) The vast majority of research in my field has nothing to do with race, and most researchers do not want to touch the topic with a ten-foot pole.

It seems arbitrary to prohibit me from editing anything that has to do with the heritability of psychological traits, particularly when doing so would close off major potential improvements that I could bring to the encyclopedia to topics in my area of expertise. I am also currently finishing up a research project on mental chronometry that I plan to present at an upcoming conference, and was hoping that I could finally get around to making major improvements to the mental chronometry article with what I've learned over the course of this research and its background.

Can you please clarify the extent to which my topic ban covers the area in which I am developing professional expertise, and the rationale for which topics are covered?

@ Brad:

I did not think it was worth including & notifying anyone else, since this was intended just to be a request for clarification of what my own topic ban was intended to cover. But here is a brief history of my situation, if it’s helpful:

1. Original topic ban from R&I in October 2010, for violation of WP:SHARE policy, documented here.

2. This was followed by a 1-year site ban, in May 2012, for violation of WP:SHARE, documented here.

3. Suspension of this ban in March 2014 is documented further down, here. My request for appealing the site ban occurred via email, originally sent to the committee on March 6, 2014. In this appeal, I mention that Occam and I no longer share an IP address—and haven’t since (and still don’t).

4. My ban was lifted under the condition that in addition to the topic ban, I was restricted only to articles about “paleontology of birds and dinosaurs” and associated talk and process pages. I appealed this specific restriction in September 2016, and this was rescinded as documented here. Which leaves me under the original topic ban and the two-way interaction ban, as documented in the most recent link.

@ Euryalus:

Appealing my topic ban wasn't my intention in submitting this request, but if Arbcom thinks lifting the ban is the best solution, then I'm happy to have that considered. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 01:52, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if Arbcom decides that my topic ban applies to articles about the heritability of intelligence in general, then I'd like to request for my topic ban to be lifted. I know there are plenty of other articles to work on, but I have a unique ability to improve articles about the topic that I'm getting my Ph.D in. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 02:30, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Capitals00:

With all due respect, if people want to scrutinize my edits that are 8 years old, it might be good to look at the whole discussion in context before drawing a conclusion. That being said, I think it’s fair to say that my explanation for these edits is simply that they were 8 years ago. My current hope is only that I be permitted to improve articles like Polygenic score and Gene-environment correlation, which are directly related to my research. If you want to see how I can contribute to topics outside this subject, I invite you to look at Specimens of Archaeopteryx and (longer ago) The Origin of Birds (a GA). Grad school has (quite predictably and, I hope, understandably) limited my time and energy for reading on topics outside of my field.

As for the comments about short leash, six month trial period, etc, I have no problem with these suggestions. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 16:18, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have no current plans to edit anything about Richard Lynn, his books or his research. Anything I do edit will be fully compliant with both the letter and the spirit of Wikipedia policy, regardless of whether my topic ban is lifted or not. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 20:40, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Capitals00: Again, there isn’t any specific article related to race and intelligence that I’m aiming to edit. My preference is to edit articles on topics I’ve researched or am researching currently. I would start with Mental chronometry, Gene-environment correlation, and Polygenic score. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 21:41, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MastCell: Well, any time we do genetic studies, we have to worry about population stratification. I’m happy to go into more detail about my research privately to Arbcom. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 21:41, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Beyond My Ken

@Newyorkbrad:

• Race and intelligence case: Findings of fact 3.5: Ferahgo: counselled, topic-banned and blocked
• Race and intelligence case: Findings of fact 3.6: Ferahgo and Occam are topic banned
• Race and intelligence case: Remedies 2.1: Ferahgo the Assassin and Captain Occam site-banned
• Race and intelligence case: Modified by motion 2: (Ferahgo the Assassin's site-ban suspended)

I believe that covers everything to date. Links to original discussions are in each section. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:03, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• On the clarification request, since Ferahgo the Assassin claims to now have some professional expertise on the subject of the "heritability of psychological traits", I personally see no problem with her editing in that subject area, very narrowly construed, as long as she doesn't touch on anything whatsoever regarding race, and assuming that her editing is based on citing suitable neutral reliable sources, and not on her own personal knowledge, which cannot be verified, or opinions, which are disallowed as WP:OR. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:03, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• On lifting the ban, I think that would be OK, as long as FtA was made aware that she was on a very short leash, and that the topic ban would be restored at the first sign of a problem in her editing. I think the question that would need to be answered is: in that circumstance (i.e. topic ban lifted, problematic editing, topic ban restored) would FtA's site ban be restored as well, considering the conditions under which the site ban was lifted? [1] Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:00, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Capitals00

I am not supporting that topic ban should be lifted because Ferahgo the Assassin has made just 400 edits on main articles since 2014 and I maintain that it doesn't matter how long ago the topic ban was imposed because I would like to see how FTA can really contribute in topics outside this subject.

I have removed a lot of WP:UNDUE content from Nations and intelligence dedicated to theories of Richard Lynn that are controversial and pseudoscientific. FTA's edits[2][3] related to Richard Lynn show that she probably thinks otherwise. I would like to hear some explanation of these edits and also how she will represent Richard Lynn or his researches whenever she will edit these articles. Capitals00 (talk) 12:19, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Ferahgo the Assassin: You still haven't answered my question. I asked how you "will represent Richard Lynn or his researches whenever" you will edit any articles that are related to him. I am waiting for your reply. What is your firm opinion about Lynn and his researches? Tell me which articles you would prefer to edit that are related to race and intelligence once your topic ban has been removed and how do you think you will improve those articles. Capitals00 (talk) 16:32, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Ferahgo the Assassin: Your answer to the question regarding Richard Lynn and his researches seems satisfactory. I had also asked that "which articles you would prefer to edit that are related to race and intelligence once your topic ban has been removed and how do you think you will improve those articles". Waiting for your reply. Capitals00 (talk) 14:40, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JzG

I wrote Wikipedia:Broadly construed on April 6. Seems timely. Perhaps we can fix this by fleshing that out a bit? Guy (Help!) 17:12, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MastCell

Ordinarily, I'm of the opinion that an editor's real-life academic qualifications (or lack thereof) are irrelevant here. But since Ferahgo presents hers as a central component of her request, I think they're worth discussing.

Ferahgo writes: My research specifically involves the heritability of intelligence... The vast majority of research in my field has nothing to do with race, and most researchers do not want to touch the topic with a ten-foot pole. The realist cynic in me can't help noticing that this formulation leaves out a key detail: Ferahgo, does your research touch on race as it intersects with intelligence? MastCell ^Talk 23:30, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by RegentsPark

I'm not sure I like this. Not only because I'm not a big fan of "I have a unique ability to improve articles about the topic..." because that usually also comes with a unique agenda, but also because the sequence of events that I'm seeing here is disconcerting. Captain Occam returns to Wikipedia. Captain Occam edits in areas that are apparently intelligence related but not race related. Captain Occam gets indef blocked. Ferahgo the Assassin shows up requesting permission to edit in those very intelligence related areas that got the Captain indef blocked. Nope. Not an encouraging chain of events. --regentspark (comment) 08:47, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Race and intelligence: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Race and intelligence: Arbitrator views and discussion

• Awaiting statements or other input (although it's not clear just who should be notified of this request). Could Feragho the Assassin or someone else please provide more specific links to the prior discussions that led to the topic-ban and site-ban, to the extent they are visible on-wiki, and any other on-wiki material we should review? Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:00, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Also awaiting any further input, and thought it worth clarifying if this is ultimately a request for amendment as well as clarification? If clarification only, then standard advice: topic bans can never be prescriptively defined, so if in doubt about whether an article is on the border of a ban, assume it is and find something else to edit. The examples referred to above are on the border of the ban; if you edit them I'd say there's a sanctions risk. However your request also has elements of an actual appeal against the ban, including for example your mention of the passage of time and your academic work. There's always a generic case for very old sanctions to be reconsidered, so it'd be worth clarifying if that's a part of this ARCA to make sure we consider all parts of the request. -- Euryalus (talk) 00:53, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• @Ferahgo; thanks for the reply - not sure if it's the best solution, just checking on whether its part of what's proposed (in which case it deserves consideration along with the clarification request). If this was just about clarification then I'd say construe the ban pretty broadly and stay away from those borderline topic areas - there's five million articles to work on, and plenty to do in other spaces. -- Euryalus (talk) 02:05, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Noting the comments in this section and by Beyond My Ken, what do people think about suspending the topic ban for (say) six months, with authority for reinstatement by any uninvolved admin if problems arise, but otherwise expiring completely by October if no problems occur? Views particularly welcome from other editors in the "race and intelligence" space, with whom Ferahgo the Assassin would presumably then work alongside. -- Euryalus (talk) 09:13, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• I think this request and the previous one basically boil down to a clarification on whether this individual is topic banned from articles about "race and intelligence" (e.g. articles that have to do with both at the same time) or articles about "race or intelligence" (e.g. articles that have to do with race and also, separately, articles that have to do with intelligence). If the former, then editing articles about intelligence as the filing editor describes would generally not be an issue, so long as nothing in the article had anything to do whatsoever with race. Looking back on the case, I think the former was clearly the intent. It's worth noting that the former was the bounds of the topic area originally given for discretionary sanctions, and this topic ban was initially implemented as a discretionary sanction, so I actually don't see how the latter could be correct from a procedural perspective. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 13:41, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• My thoughts mirror Euryalus' genrally - from a clarification point of view, the edits described would be on the edge of the ban and depending on the content and context might well lead to a sanction. That said, looking back at the history, I would support lifting the topic ban which has been in place for 4 years, but I would be interested in hearing community views on that matter. Worm^TT(talk) 19:42, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• My opinion on the clarification aspect of this mirrors those above - I think the topics you indicate in your request are on the border of the topic ban. Whether they'd violate it would depend on the specific material, but it's risky considering that the general view on topic bans is that they should encourage an editor to work on something completely unrelated, not on something very close. On the appeal aspect - well, I realize that I'm hardly one to be looking down my nose at low activity given my own sluggish editing rate lately, but I do notice that the low number of edits since the 2016 appeal makes it a bit difficult to judge the success of that decision. Still, I'd be willing to consider a suspension given the age of the sanctions. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:06, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Initiated by Anythingyouwant at 23:01, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected

[4] (AE)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. [5] (my user talk)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• Anythingyouwant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• NeilN (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• MrX (talk · contribs)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• diff of notification NeilN
• diff of notification MrX

Information about amendment request

• [6] (my user talk)

• The desired modification is that I am no longer indefinitely topic banned from all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people, broadly construed. A lesser sanction would be less objectionable.

Statement by Anythingyouwant

This is the edit at issue to the Donald Trump article. And this is the edit at issue to my user talk page.

Regarding the article edit, I don't recall that any admins in this case disputed that I was correcting an extremely obvious BLP violation; I also don't recall any of the admins disputing that the BLP violation was biased (3RRNO exempts "Removing violations of the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy that contain libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material"). Based on this AE proceeding, I gather that correcting even the most obviously biased BLP violation will not be exempt from sanctions unless the violation is simultaneously very extreme (like replacing Trump's image with that of a chimpanzee), and I promise to infer this from 3RRNO in the future, though I urge that 3RRNO be edited to actually say so. Please note: I took this to the article talk page after citing "WP:BLP" in an article edit summary only once, so it’s obvious I wasn’t jamming the material back in repetitively.

Regarding the comment at my user talk page, I have always known that user talk comments can be blockable if they are nasty or irrelevant enough, but I don't recall getting any civility warning in the past regarding comments at my user talk. Once I realized that my user talk might arguably be subject to the Trump-page sanctions or the post-1932 sanctions (i.e. more than usual civility restrictions) I deleted this relatively mild comment,[7] and told NeilN I had deleted it.[8]

Neil notes that, "On January 20th they were given a one month topic ban from Donald Trump." Here's a link to that January proceeding at AE. That one-month block was not for any edit I made to any article or any talk page, but rather was for an allegedly inaccurate edit summary, which I honestly and reasonably thought was indeed accurate. Anyway, jumping from that kind of narrow, limited-duration topic-ban at the Trump page to this kind of broad topic-ban is a huge and unwarranted leap under the circumstances. Incidentally and FWIW, I do enjoy editing other non-political areas of Wikipedia, but only in combination with the political ones, so it seems that this would be a lifetime ban from the project. It's rather punitive given that I removed my user talk comment and will consider myself warned about that, and given that I also promise to interpret 3RRNO as exempting correction not of all obviously biased BLP violations, but rather only the most egregious of those violations. Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:01, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Beyond My Ken, you were involved at AE.[9] Am I supposed to also list everyone involved at article talk? Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:45, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve shortened the list of involved parties per suggestion of BMK. So not everyone who was involved in the AE discussion is now listed here. Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:29, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:NeilN, you place great weight upon the January proceedings at AE. Here are the two article edits I made: [10][11]. Are you really saying now that I was not fully entitled to make those edits, putting aside what I said in the edit summaries? As best I recall, no one alleged that I was not fully entitled to make those two edits, and if they did allege that then I disagree, because there is no reason why I would not have been entitled to make those two edits. A new section had been added, so I cut and pasted it elsewhere. That's it. The only controversy was because I believed that no one would be entitled to put it back in the original location without consensus per the discretionary sanctions (which forbid restoration of reverted material without consensus). So I tried to indicate that in the edit summaries. User:MelanieN, for example, acknowledged that those two edits were fully permissible, putting side the edit summaries. I am glad to obey the January consensus that moving the material should not be considered a revert within the meaning of the discretionary sanctions, but my moving the material was itself perfectly fine. Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:24, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:NeilN, if you're going to heavily rely upon and quote from the January matter, please at least answer my brief question: Are you really saying now that I was not fully entitled to make those edits, putting aside what I said in the edit summaries? No need to relitigate, just yes or no would be fine. Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:35, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:NeilN, my personal belief that Wikipedia hosts numerous POV-pushers and propagandists, along with many other good people, ought to have exactly nothing to do with the present matter. Your argument would be more plausible if you’d acknowledge that (1) the comment I made was at my user talk, (2) you have not cited any past civility issues or warnings involving me, (3) I deleted my user talk comment immediately when I realized that the Trump discretionary sanctions and the post-1932 discretionary sanctions might arguably apply to my user talk page, and (4) I have consistently advocated reasonable solutions to the systemic bias problem in Wikipedia’s political articles including at the very AE proceeding that is now being appealed. Banning me for believing Wikipedia has a systemic bias problem does not make a lot of sense to me. NPOV violations and BLP violations usually do not happen by accident, and if there are enough editors at a particular article who support those violations then they often succeed. Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:06, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:MelanieN, during the January AE proceeding, you said “Anything, I might well have done the move in two edits. But my edit summaries would have said that was what I would [sic] doing: ‘deleting section preparatory to a move’, ‘moving’.”[12] Thus, regardless of what Melanie finds it convenient to say now, she only objected then to my edit summaries. Whether I moved the material in one edit or a series of two consecutive edits (which was easier), I was entirely entitled to move the newly-added material, and entirely reasonable in thinking that removed or moved material could not be restored to its original placement without consensus per the discretionary sanctions. The proceeding in January at AE was incredibly nasty and punitive, including when I was blocked for merely correcting a small typographical error in my own comment at AE (the block was overturned as you can see in my block log). Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:32, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Volunteer Marek, Neil says here at this page (referring to my edit inserting Trump’s denial): “Anythingyouwant was not sanctioned for that edit....” So there doesn’t seem much point in discussing it further than what I already said above. Regarding the Moore BLP, I agreed with User:GoldenRing: “this is not Anythingyouwant pleading BLP against the whole world; there are other editors in good standing who agree with him and so we should AGF and not dismiss the BLP claim out of hand.... we should not be in the business of sanctioning editors for clarifying that someone has not confessed to a crime.” Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:38, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:My very best wishes, usually I don’t come to ArbCom, because it’s not such an onerous penalty, and anyway (frankly) I don’t have huge confidence in ArbCom. But, as Neil said here at this page, this is “[p]robably the best place for this one as WP:AE would largely be a rehash and WP:AN would likely become a mess.” Anyway, where are your best wishes for me??? Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:25, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@User:My very best wishes, anyone can read what the admins said at AE, so I haven't tried to summarize. You on the other hand, have given an inaccurate summary here at this page: "At the end of this AE discussion, two experienced admins agreed with NeilN and one suggested a softer restriction." That's false, and anyone can go see that more than three admins responded to Neil. The admins commenting there were Sandstein, RegentsPark, Masem, Bishonen, GoldenRing, and Fish + Karate. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:57, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by NeilN

I'm going to copy some of my rationale for the topic ban here: "...I had another look at Anythingyouwant's editing history. On January 20th they were given a one month topic ban from Donald Trump. On January 27th they took a break from editing. They returned on April 13th and went back to Donald Trump a couple days after. On the 19th they started the attacks that landed them here. This indicates they will simply wait until their topic ban expires and then continue their disruption. When reading their "discretionary sanctions applies to user talk pages? really??" comments above, I was struck how similar this was to their behavior outlined in the last case here. Same gaming, same wikilawyering. I don't think a short block will work here based on their Jan-Apr editing history but an indefinite topic ban might. Let them edit in other areas to show they can contribute non-disruptively and have them appeal rather than having the ban simply expire. I'd go with a blanket American Politics ban."

No admin agreed that Anythingyouwant's edit could claim the BLP exemption and there is a civility restriction on the article, making their comments both on their talk page and at the AE request unacceptable. I originally proposed a three month topic ban on Donald Trump but their subsequent comments, along with those of other participants in the request, changed my thinking. In particular, Anythingyouwant asserts and continues to assert above that his one month topic ban "was for an allegedly inaccurate edit summary". Looking at the appeal, members will see that admins unanimously rejected this thinking, with Timotheus Canens stating, "We have indeffed people for shenanigans like this". Given Anythingyouwant had approximately fifty-sixty edits in total between the time the topic ban was imposed and the start of the enforcement request in question, and that they simply stopped editing for over two months, I believed the sanction should not be time-limited so it could be simply waited out but rather indefinite so any appeal had to be bolstered by evidence of constructive contributions in other areas. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:08, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Anythingyouwant: I'm not going to re-litigate the January enforcement action and appeal unless the arbs indicate I should do so. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:29, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@James J. Lambden:

1. Yes.
2. Yes with strong caveats. The "yes" is not an invitation to claim BLP until every section, paragraph, and sentence is perfectly balanced to an editor's satisfaction. This is not reasonable.

Anythingyouwant was not sanctioned for that edit but for stating, "Wikipedia is the biggest propaganda outfit on Earth, thanks to folks like [MrX]" soon after their return. Hours of editors' time, numerous enforcement requests, and pages and pages of discussion have resulted in the current version of the article. If Anythingyouwant believes that it's blatant propaganda then their view of NPOV is decidedly at odds with the general community and they shouldn't be editing in the area. If it was hyperbole, then the attack came almost immediately after they returned to the area after being forced to take a one month break. If that is acceptable then we might as well revoke the civility restriction and get rid of decorum. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:05, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Volunteer Marek: Appeal instructions say this is a possible venue. Probably the best place for this one as WP:AE would largely be a rehash and WP:AN would likely become a mess. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:52, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr Ernie: Are you really arguing that user talk pages are anything goes zones where behavioral expectations don't apply? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:33, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Masem

I commented on the AE related to the fact that while one can argue that the edit was resolving a BLP violation, 3RRNO does not consider it the type that is exceptional under 3RR or for any article under a edit-warring DS concern. While I fully agree with the edit, 3RR is pretty clear that edit warring over it was not appropriate. Some type of action was necessary, and AYW's prior record here (the previous 1 month ban in the area) does warrant a longer one That said, the jump from a suggested 3 month topic ban to indef makes little sense based on the AE discussion, particularly given that the edit AYW did was eventually accepted and added to the page after talk page discussion. I feel this is punishing AYW for having a certain POV, which from their edits seems difficult to necessarily identity, outside of the fact they end up not disagreeing with the majority of editors in that space. I do agree their behavior at their previous appeal [13] feels like gaming and agree with how that closed, I'm just not seeing anything like that here. They felt omission of a certain statement violated BLP, did a 1RR to retail it believing they were right per 3RRNO, and then went to the talk page. That's not gaming anything. Some short topic ban is needed, but not an indef. --Masem (t) 23:48, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Beyond My Ken

Since I have never edited Donald Trump [14], and I have never edited User talk:Anythingyouwant [15], I have no idea why I'm listed as a party to this request. Unless something tying me to this dispute can be presented, I would ask that my name be removed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:29, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like I did comment on AYW's AE action below, but commenting on an AE discussion doesn't make one a party to the dispute which is the subject of that discussion. Allowing AYW to include everyone who commented there is a very bad precedent to set, as it could have the effect of inhibiting people from commenting freely. I would suggest that everyone thrown into the list of parties for that reason alone should be removed, and AYW trouted for adding them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:46, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am not involved. I am removing myself from the parties list. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:54, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MelanieN

I am an involved editor with regard to the Donald Trump article. I am commenting here since I was pinged by Anythingyouwant. I would like to set the record straight. Anything’s description of my input at the January discussion is incorrect. He claims that I found his two edits “fully permissible” and disapproved only of the edit summaries. The truth is that I described his two edits as a “cute trick” and an “attempt to game the DS sanctions.” His goal was to move material within the article - a move that had been disputed at the talk page and consensus had not been not reached. His method of moving it was, first to delete it as a “challenge by reverting,” claiming the material was riddled with bias and POV pushing - and then to immediately re-add it, without any changes, to the location where he wanted it to be, with an edit summary saying that nobody could put it anywhere else in the article without consensus. I regarded this as basically fraudulent and said so. The fact that he is now trying to re-litigate that situation by blatantly misrepresenting my input does not argue well for a relaxation of his sanctions. --MelanieN (talk) 03:44, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Atsme

I am not a party to this dispute, but I did comment at the AE discussion, have made a total of 7 edits to Donald Trump since September 2017, and have participated on the TP of that article. I much prefer editing equine articles where the whole horse is the topic. ^[FBDB] I did request leniency for Anythingyouwant at AE as evidenced by this diff, and will repeat the crux of my comment: "My perception of AYW's attempt to add the denial to the lede was that it was a GF edit based on NPOV and BLP. AYW did go to the article TP in an attempt to discuss the inclusion. I don't think irritating another editor at a TP justifies a block or TB. My interest in this case is more focused on the NPOV argument which I see as being inseparable from BLP. Prior to this case being filed, I posted a tough question on the TP of TonyBallioni hoping to get some thoughtful input. The diff I used in that same discussion included AYW's edit as an example." I quickly learned that AP2 articles can be highly controversial, so stepping over the DS restriction line is not unexpected; however, in this case, I truly believe it was done inadvertently. ^{Atsme📞📧} 03:40, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Excellent points, James J. Lambden. ^{Atsme📞📧} 19:29, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Good question, Volunteer Marek - perhaps AE and DS are not the best options, especially if it opens the doors to gaming, and stifles improvement/expansion of articles that may have fallen into the clutches of dominant OWN behavior, which almost always has a negative impact on editor retention. It is extremely difficult to save a political article from a dominant POV despite trying to strictly adhere to NPOV. I think a big part of the problem is the ever-present ambiguity in some of our policies and the varied perceptions of editors. I empathize with our admins and what they have to deal with - it is not an easy task to decide who/what is actually at the root of the disruption when one lives under RL time restraints which afford them just enough time to see a limited view of the whole picture. I understand that disruptive behavior is not conducive to a collegial editing environment, and action must be taken. I also understand that it typically stems from content issues. Admins do not focus on content issues so what we really need are content admins (wishful thinking); however, I'm still of the mind that we need to focus more on the root cause rather than the resulting symptoms which may/should open the doors to a bit more leniency. Our job at WP is to maintain the quality in our articles and per NPOV, to assure that significant views are included in our articles, the latter of which has been an effort that is barely a centimeter shy of being a root canal. TBs and blocks to end disruption may have inadvertently favored one POV, an opinion strictly based on appearances, but the results seem to support it. Please prove me wrong because the fence post I'm sitting on is very uncomfortable. Perhaps this data collation will shed more light on this issue. ^{Atsme📞📧} 22:08, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Ok, so I was thinking the BLP edit was the reason for Anythingyouwant's indef TB from AP2 but now realize that it was for telling another editor to stay off his TP per this diff, adding what NeilN said above that triggered an indef TB from AP2. Quite frankly, I have been the target of far worse and no action was taken against the offending editors, but that's beside the point. What I don't understand is what justifies an indef from AP2 for something he said on his own TP?? How is it even related? Are we subject to AP2 DS civility sanctions on our own TP? ^{Atsme📞📧} 11:58, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by James J. Lambden

Today in an AE complaint against editor "KEC" one of the responding administrator said:

"I think KEC's belief that the edit was supported by consensus was at least defensible and reasonable, even if it's possible it was mistaken. I don't see a need for any action here."

To assist those responding in offering informed commentary, can administrators who commented here (or in the original complaint) please clarify:

1. Whether in their opinion Anythingyouwant believed he was correcting a BLP violation
2. Whether in their opinion such a belief is defensible and reasonable

Thank you. James J. Lambden (talk) 19:13, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Volunteer Marek

First, this isn't a "Request for Clarification and Amendment". Is there something unclear about the sanction (which would need clarification) or self-contradictory (which would require an amendment)? No. This is a straight up APPEAL of the sanction. And the place for APPEALS is WP:AE itself.

Second, this is becoming a pattern. Fairly recently another user - Dheyward - also got sanctioned, then appealed to like fifteen different venues (yes, that is a purposeful but illustrative exaggeration), then finally came here and you guys granted his appeal (though it's not really your job to do so, except in extraordinary circumstances). I warned you then this would happen. Anyone who gets sanctioned at WP:AE will now come running to ArbCom with an appeal - if they can't get one anywhere else - which sort of defeats the whole purpose of WP:AE in the first place (which was, if any of you where around long enough to remember, precisely so that ArbCom wouldn't have to deal with this kind of stuff and could concentrate on the "big stuff"). If you persist in second guessing admins at WP:AE (and god knows they make mistakes), what's the point of having WP:AE? Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:45, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NeilN, sure, it is "possible". Still bad practice.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:26, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As to the "the user believed it was a BLP issue" issue - I can't recall of the top of my head, so I'm not going to say it was Anythingyouwant specifically without double checking, but there have been users who have tried to WP:GAME both the standard 3RR restriction as well as imposed discretionary sanctions by claiming BLP many many many times before and it didn't fly. Presumably the admins at WP:AE already took into consideration whether or not it was really a BLP issue or whether the user is just making up an excuse. This, in my opinion, is NOT a clear cut BLP issue, it's a judgement call. I see no reason for ArbCom folks to second guess AE admins here. Appeals, if they're going to be heard by ArbCom - since this is what this is - should focus on review of potential procedural errors (was the user notified of DS, was there reasonable consensus of admins, etc.), rather than a re-litigation of the underlying issue.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:35, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Right, here it is. At least one previous instance where Anythingyouwant tried to do the exact same thing, claim BLP to get his way, when in fact it was pretty clear he was trying to just GAME the DS restriction: "Since Sandstein has asked that I handle this, and there does seem to be agreement that this was not BLP exempt and that Anythingyouwant knew what they were doing, I'll go ahead and resolve this: Anythingyouwant is placed on 0RR for 1 month on Roy Moore and any topic related to the United States Senate special election in Alabama, 2017, broadly construed. ". Closed by User:TonyBallioni.

Now, given that this exact sequence of events unfolded before (sans winding up here) what do you think are the chances that when Anythingyouwant made their latest-DS-violating-edit that led to their ban, they were thinking "gee shucks, I can't possibly be violating discretionary sanctions here because this is such an obvious BLP issue no one will ever object by golly!" The dude did exact same thing before and got sanctioned for it. He was trying again (you got to ask him why he though it'd work this time). It didn't work this time either. Hell, if anything he deserves another sanction for trying the same game twice (points off for lack of originality!), just as a lesson to be more creative about his WP:GAMEing in the future.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:46, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by My very best wishes

The issue here is not the diffs provided by Anythingyouwant in their statement, but this AE discussion about Anythingyouwant. Was anything improperly done by admins? At the end of this AE discussion (at the very bottom of the thread), two experienced admins agreed with NeilN and one suggested a softer restriction. No doubts, such sanctions are always a matter of personal judgement (the "discretion"), and the judgement can be different. According to current rules, such sanctions do not require a consensus of admins. Thinking logically, everyone who has been sanctioned on AE should complain to Arbcom in a hope that the consensus of Arbcom administrators will be different from the good faith judgement by a few or a single AE administrator. But of course not everyone runs immediately to Arbcom, because at least some people tend to admit their own mistakes and value time of other contributors.

Should such complaints be encouraged? Yes, if there is an obvious error of judgement by an AE administrator. However, when it happens, the most appropriate way is to make an appeal directly on WP:AE. In this particular case, I think Anythingyouwant knew that his appeal on WP:AE will not be granted because the sanction was a reasonable judgement by several admins, and it would be harder to argue his case here after the decline of appeal on WP:AE. Therefore, Anythingyouwant went directly to Arbcom. My very best wishes (talk) 16:50, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mr Ernie

Sanctioning administrator User:NeilN makes it explicitly clear above that AYW was sanctioned for a comment on his talk page. However, since that talk page is not under discretionary sanctions, then the sanction placed as “arbitration enforcement” seems out of process. Many editors, including a couple who have commented here, have certainly made somewhat uncivil posts recently. Are we really going to be sanctioning editors on this basis? Mr Ernie (talk) 17:29, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Galobtter

I don't know why so many people seem to think that user talk pages are somehow exempt from DS, but, while yes Anythingyouwant's entire talk page isn't under DS, certain edits are per: standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. Thus, Anythingyouwant's edit on his talk page was certainly about American Politics, and thus under the discretionary sanctions, and under the many other policies we have.

Even beyond the wording, the point of DS is reduce this sort of crap — bad faith accusations of POV pushing, subverting the rules etc— and to instead have have decorum where we can constructively build the encyclopedia with civil discussion. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:45, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Anythingyouwant: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Anythingyouwant: Arbitrator views and discussion