Wefa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

After two attempts at subtle POV pushing on Talk:Libs of TikTok [1][2] they dropped all pretense of editing in good faith or respecting NPOV and posted this:

I have given up on this article. The discussion archived above has amply shown that the cognitive divide has reached such an extent that we seem to live in different universes. Apparently there exists a sizeable minority or even majority here who is complete unable to concede that the term "gender affirming care" (which includes not only primary sex surgery but also things like mastectomies and chemical castration (aka puberty Blockers) is an ugly euphemism for mutilation of children (which by definition is always involuntary since children can not possibly give informed consent to something destructive and far reaching like that). So while folks like me, who are disgusted and revolted by what these hospitals do to children, see LOT as a courageous whistleblower and critic, the above mentioned group sees her as a hatemonger and is motivated to paint her in the worst light possible. There is no middle ground here - "gender affirming care" is the new lobotomy craze, and its practitioners are the Mengeles of our time. You either get that or refuse to.

In such a situation, especially with the "paint in worst light" part, Wikipedia's policies just do not work. The admin-supported left wing rules by majority, even though there is no policy allowing such, NPOV on this particular topic is even hard to define, let alone implement, in such spirit, and this part of Wikipedia has essentially been captured as the left's propaganda arm. I came here with a good faith suggestion to make this article more NPOV, and that was roundly rejected. Now, given there is no consensus, I would have as much right to be bold and just change things as all the left wing "owners" of this article who do this all the time, but the practice is different. While non-consensus changes by me would, given enough persistence on my part, result in me getting banned, the exactly same actions by the lw majority would and constantly do have no such consequences. The mostly lefty administrators and the various informal councils make sure of that.

And that is that. We as Wikipedians collectively get the Encyclopedia we collectively deserve, and right now, that picture is less than pretty. All I can say on this point is good luck with this article. Wefa (talk) 14:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Which to me says that they're not just done editing that talk page but its time for them to say goodby to the project as a whole, I guess I would accept a topic ban from anything related to sexuality, gender, or politics but they appear to intend to disrupt more than just those topic areas. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:28, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have left a DS notice for WP:ARBGSDS. Not looked into the comment much more than to see it was under the scope of that DS. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 14:38, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This person hasn't disrupted anything, and they're arguing for NPOV, so I don't see any reason to ban them from anything. Korny O'Near (talk) 18:34, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is not an argument for NPOV. In fact, it's the opposite, a call to slant the article towards the conspiracy theory. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:13, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is hardly evidence of anything. In my personal experience, no person who ever tried to go against NPOV in any serious capacity (i.e. not straight up vandalising) did so by openly stating that they have an axe to grind. Ostalgia (talk) 20:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's a poor look, IMHO, to hand someone a topic ban (or worse, an indef) for no other cause than that he's expressed sentiments on the talk page that you don't like. The best way to refute Wefa's belief that the Thought Police are running Wikipedia -- and seeking to suppress opinions they don't want anyone to hear -- is not to prove him right. Ravenswing 00:19, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a fair point, and I am not sure I favor a ban, but when you start accusing your interlocutors of being in league with "Mengeles," to my mind it is something more than expressing a sentiment that people don't like. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 01:28, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unless they set off carving a path of distuption across the encyclopedia, there doesn't seem to be any point blocking, and while they have been playing at the edge of stuff that can get users banned, they haven't gone there yet. Based on what they've said, they might have been NOTHERE (on that page anyway), but they apparently aren't there anymore anyway (i.e. they left). Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 06:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That was yesterday and they didn't leave, they were removed[3]. Note User talk:Shibbolethink#you hid my talk page text on Libs of Tiktok where Wefa castigates @Shibbolethink: for removing their rant from the talk page. Also note they're now disrupting their own talk page, how is this not carving a path of disruption across the encyclopedia? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:26, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Treating them preferentially because they've invoked baseless conspiracy theories is a bad look, its effectively a get out of sanctions free card. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They aren't commenting here but they don't seem all that worried about our enforcement action... From their talk page (emphasis added):

You are basically making my point. That article is constantly changed without consent, against the objections of a the conservative editors present, and no editor nor admin saw need to call out, let alone threaten, the editors doing that. AGF was immediately violated by other editors who called my position transphobic; "transphobic" itself is a left wing fighting term trying to pathologize dissent. There is no such phobia, conservatives simply recognize that there are men and women, and, if we ignore the extremely rare cases of biological nonbinaries, nothing else.

But as soon as I point out the discrepancy, as well as the fundamental problem with editing Wikipedia under such circumstances, several people jump at me, you with all your administrators might threaten me on my own talk page. Where was such threats/warnings for those who called all conservatives "transphobic"?

Yep. Thanks for making my point. Wefa (talk) 18:31, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Fringe editors who can't set aside their fringe beliefs have no business editing the encyclopedia because they are incapable of consensus. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:26, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you're referring to this user's apparent belief that people with XY chromosomes are men and people with XX chromosomes are women, I don't think that can be called fringe for any standard definition of "fringe". Korny O'Near (talk) 16:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Generally wikipedia's definition of WP:FRINGE is things which aren't accepted by mainstream medicine, science, and/or academia. Such as the opinions you just elucidated. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wew, you're just going for every checkbox on the "how do I get banned" bingo, aren't you? — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:48, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, I agree with editors here that Wefa's conduct is disruptive and pretty clearly not here to build consensus. It amounts to the my way or the highway style of argument. But I also agree that the best way to deal with this editor is to stop giving them what they want. This user engages in long drawn out time-wasting culture war arguments. So why don't we all stop engaging? Either they will run out of steam, or they'll edit article space against consensus or in a disruptive manner, thereby justifying their own WP:NOTHERE block. If they, instead, decide to edit more productive and less vitriolic areas of the encyclopedia, it's a win for everybody. To summarize: WP:DFTT. Honestly I would apply this same logic to several other users in the space as well. If they bludgeon, edit against consensus, or otherwise break rules, then that should be dealt with appropriately. If all they’re doing is spouting out loud culture war arguments in support of their conspiracy theory, then collapse, delete, or ignore.— Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 16:44, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

you would be wrong in your assumption. My note on that talk page was to explain why I would refrain from further editing the article, and was prompted by someone else's comment on the talk page asking for my input. Unfortunately someone had deleted my comment from the talk page near instantly, so the majority of editors there probably did not even see it. Wefa (talk) 16:03, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree that the best course of action is to just let it go. I'm not seeing anything particularly actionable. I just see an editor who is tired of being contested, which is fairly understandable. When you get into the weeds of controversial or political topics on WP it's hard to internalize that we aren't here to preach the truth, we're here to aggregate information from public sources. I think just letting them storm off is best for everyone. GabberFlasted (talk) 17:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• @Wefa: It's best to just not make such editorializing comments on talk pages. Just state your opinion about the content dispute and move on. That's all you can do. If you continue to make such comments you will likely be topic banned rather soon. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 01:49, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• that is basically clear to me, too. I just underestimated how fast the Wikipedia landscape on that matter had changed. Only a few years ago there was a consensus that mutilating children was completely out of question and unacceptable for the Trans community, but on the progressive side of things that seems to have changed 180 degrees. I explained here - clearly I think - why in the context of Wikipedia, its rules, and the people currently interpreting and enforcing those rules, editing under such circumstances leads nowhere. I originally came there to make a suggestion to improve NPOV, but went down in flames quickly.

BTW - thanks for the ping - I had missed this debate here completely. Wefa (talk) 16:03, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's unfair to claim that Wefa is NOTHERE. They've done good work on a wide range of articles through the years. That doesn't mean that they aren't about one poorly-worded comment from a long-term DS block, though. Stop comparing other people to Nazis, take a break, edit articles that aren't going to raise your (and everyone else's) blood pressure, and keep being a valued member of the community. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:29, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"There is no middle ground here - "gender affirming care" is the new lobotomy craze, and its practitioners are the Mengeles of our time. You either get that or refuse to."

That is one of many such comments, and though you do not say it explicitly, I would caution against seeing this as weighing their other "good work" to this disruption. The net positive fallacy is pervasive, and is unhelpful.

The comment, and others, aren't even an attempt to discuss what's supported by reliable sources, it's pure culture war soapboxing. It should be considered in the context of the harm caused, not in the context of their other work.

It's one thing to disagree on how we include reliable sources, it's another for Wefa to compare people to Nazis when they disagree with him. Accusing other editors of being part of "the left's propaganda arm" when consensus is against them, is also not constructive, nor are the many other implicit and explicit accusations of bad faith.

The trend here, i.e. Wefa's insistence that people either agree with him or are acting in bad faith, is not indicative of intent to contribute constructively to Wikipedia. Vermont (🐿️—🏳️‍🌈) 17:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I don't weigh the other good work against the disruption. I just say that the other good work tends to invalidate the NOTHERE accusation. You can be HERE and disruptive at the same time. Wefa has been very thoroughly warned of the community expectations at this point: it's their choice if they're going to listen or if they need to be separated from the community for a time for the good of the encyclopedia. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:22, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thats fair but someone can also be NOTHERE and have made productive contributions to the project. This isn't exactly new behavior though, two years ago they were at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard with a very similar rant about "The current debate climate is not conductive for a solution. For the time being we have to live with Wikipedia's erosion of NPOV, and see it slowly become Leftopedia on political matters. And that includes the constant low key disparaging of conservatives in their respective BLPs."[4] Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2018 at Talk:Rape in Islamic law "the article goes to great lengths to 'not' spell out what Islamic Law thinks about the rape of slaves, even though we can guess it from peripheral parts. This is unencyclopedic"[5]. From what I'm seeing in their edit history the vast majority of their edits are not constructive at least from 2018 to the present. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:40, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support WP:NOTFORUM/WP:NOTSOAPBOX warning. Levivich (talk) 20:28, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Considering the message posted by Horse Eye's Back, and their decision to continue that kind of narrative here, a topic ban from gender and sexuality seems more appropriate. Isabelle ^🏳‍🌈 20:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Agreed. I’m in support of a topic ban from gensex with a warning for wider soapbox issues. Vermont (🐿️—🏳️‍🌈) 21:32, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• We have lots of editors in the GENSEX topic area, of all manner of POVs, who are good at separating strong private feelings from their encyclopedia editing. This does not strike me as such an editor, and an indef GENSEX TBAN under DS seems reasonable. I've been minimally involved (viz. I made two "gain consensus first" reverts) in a dispute over whether puberty blockers are chemical castration, so probably shouldn't be the one to impose that sanction, if only to avoid an appearance of impropriety; but if another admin wishes to do so, I think that would be in keeping with recent "jurisprudence" in the GENSEX area [6] [7]. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 22:11, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Whilst I did suggest that a siteban or siteblock wouldn't be helpful, a TBAN most certainly should be on the cards. If they aren't going to voluntarily keep out of a contentious area which they have obvious issues with editing in accordance with policy on (including soapboxing on article talkpages and their own talkpage), they need a TBAN. I'd say that, in WP:ARBGSDS, they show signs of not being there to build an encyclopedia, but in others, they are definitely constructive. By stopping the distracting stuff, hopefully they will be more helpful in the areas where they are HERE. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 07:29, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm really struggling to find helpful edits in any area post 2018, it almost looks like two completely different editors. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:24, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Most of 2021 looks fairly reasonable. What am I missing?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:00, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  That there are only 19 edits in all of 2021 perhaps? Their very first edit in 2022 was POV pushing at Soy Boy[8]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:19, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I think a GENSEX TBAN is a bit tough at this point. At least give them another chance. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 00:16, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I actually don't think it's a bit tough. I just really want to give them a chance to fix things themselves. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:13, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GENSEX TBAN: Wefa

I feel like it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other whether to move this to WP:AE or make it a community sanction, but since we already have multiple opinions expressed above, I'll go with the latter (although I do think it would still be acceptable for any uninvolved admin to issue a DS TBAN). Proposed: For repeated comments in the topic area not oriented toward building an encyclopedia, Wefa is indefinitely topic-banned from gender-related disputes and controversies and associated people.

Already expressing opinions above: Ravenswing (generally against), Vermont (for), Mako001 (not against), Iamreallygoodatcheckers (against), SarekOfVulcan (not against). -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 20:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as proposer. I'll reïterate my comment above that we've already had two DS TBANs this year for similar conduct. [9] [10] -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 20:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - Wefa has acknowledged the issue and have been adequately warned. I have no reason to believe more restriction is needed to prevent disruption to the encyclopedia. Give them a second chance. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 22:24, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  How is Wefa coming to ANI to say "Only a few years ago there was a consensus that mutilating children was completely out of question and unacceptable for the Trans community, but on the progressive side of things that seems to have changed 180 degrees." at all describable as having "acknowledged the issue"? Or this comment, the other response to this ANI thread. It's the exact behavior that resulted in Wefa being brought here and it's this singular interest in discussion over ideology rather than sources which necessitates a TBAN. Vermont (🐿️—🏳️‍🌈) 00:48, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The editor made a couple soapbox edits on one talk page. When he was confronted about it here he said that it's "basically clear" to him that he needs to stop. The quote you mentioned is Wefa explaining how they view Wikipedia and the topic have changed recently; he hasn't been editing much in the last few years. It's reasonable that he might be a little rusty and ignorant to Wikipedia standards today. There's no evidence of sustained disruption in the GENSEX area by this user. Therefore, a topic ban would be more punitive than preventative. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 03:30, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  So, he doesn't understand what is acceptable in a GENSEX discussion, and he has come to AN/I to continue to show that he doesn't understand what is acceptable in a GENSEX discussion, but no disruption would be prevented by banning him from GENSEX discussions? -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 03:52, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  "he has come to AN/I to continue to show" isn't accurate; he was brought here, he didn't come here to continue to show anything. It'd be different if he had inserted himself into a dispute that didn't involve him. Levivich (talk) 14:54, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - I've read through the proceeding discussion, and some of Wefa's other contributions. I think a topic ban from GENSEX content is the right call here. To editors who believe we should not topic ban for just talk page contributions, I'd point out that actually in practice we do. To quote/paraphrase from another AE case (comments by admin Joe) where an editor was topic banned because of their talk page contributions; it is abundantly clear from the initial diffs that we have an editor who a) has a strongly held, minority view on gender; b) has proved themselves incapable of putting that aside and contributing to the topic area without causing disruption; and c) made several comments that disparage trans people (conflating gender affirming care as mutilation of children, likening health care professionals with Josef Mengele, asserting that transphobia does not exist, denying that trans and non-binary people are who they say they are) in a way that is contrary to the UCOC and the civility policy. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:37, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Wefa lacks the sensitivity and tact required to edit in this topic area productively and collaboratively. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:59, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose: I'm not seeing where -- and there haven't been any diffs to demonstrate -- (a) Wefa has made ban-worthy objectionable edits to articlespace, or (b) where he's continued to make objectionable and explosive comments to article talk pages in this line. I'll reiterate my statement from above: the best way to refute Wefa's belief that the Thought Police are running Wikipedia -- and seeking to suppress opinions they don't want anyone to hear -- is not to prove him right. Ravenswing 10:28, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The thing is, we are discussing a topic ban, not a site ban. It is clear from Wefa's talk comment quoted above that they disagree profoundly with both the enwiki community consensus and the consensus of reliable sources on key questions in the GENSEX topic area, to the extent that they are willing at least to make a public thought experiment about crusading against consensus reality. In this context, what purpose is served by allowing an editor to contribute to a topic area within which any contribution they make is bound to be counter to policy, and therefore disruptive? The whole point of sanctions is to prevent future disruption, is it not? This isn't about "thought crime", it is about contributing to a collaborative project. Wefa's comment - conservatives simply recognize that there are men and women, and, if we ignore the extremely rare cases of biological nonbinaries, nothing else - is essentially an assertion, against all the sources on the topic, that transgender identity does not exist. Editors can believe what they like, but bringing their pastafarian or flat earth beliefs into the determination of article content in this way is inherently disruptive. Newimpartial (talk) 18:36, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  No, and this is the sort of thing your side is tripping over when it comes to "thought crime." That green quote does not state that transgender identity does not exist. It states that conservatives believe it doesn't exist ... which, in point of fact, many do, and there are a whole whopping lot of concurring academic and scientific sources, so perhaps you can spare us the insinuation about "all" the sources on the topic; they are merely "all" the sources with which you agree. In a field dominated in several directions by personal belief, declaring a side to hold the only settled, objective truth is at best badly premature.

  There are many subject areas on Wikipedia involving conflicting beliefs: religion, politics, history, race relations. We do not seek to impose orthodoxy: not on whether Sunni or Shia is the legitimate strain of Islam, not on which entity legitimately owns Kosovo, not on which percentage of African descent makes an American "black," not on hundreds of other contentious questions. To call the mere introduction of such a view "inherently disruptive" ... well, perhaps disruptive to a side wanting its view of things to be considered unquestioned orthodoxy, sure. Is that genuinely the Wikipedia you want? Ravenswing 18:08, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Meh, Wefa had made all of 20 edits in 2022 before this. AFAICT, ~1,500 edits over 18 years and there apparently has never been a problem before, until Sep 19, 2022, when Wefa made one offensive forum/soapbox-y article talk page comment and a second, similar user talk page comment; the sentiments were repeated a third time in this ANI thread above. Wefa hasn't edited in the past week. I don't think going straight to a TBAN for two disruptive edits (not counting ANI) is merited, particularly for an editor who barely edits. What are we preventing? I see no reason to think this problem will be repeated, and if it is, the proper mode of action is a full NOTHERE site ban (or block), not a TBAN. But for context, here's a perfectly fine comment from earlier on Sep 19, and another from Sep 11, I do not see any kind of ongoing pattern outside of two edits on Sep 19. They barely edit; most of their edits are fine; the disruption is limited to two comments posted on one day; I continue to support closing with a warning but a TBAN is too much paperwork for this. Levivich (talk) 15:11, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support are we seriously just going to give this user a slap on the wrist in this topic for comparing transgender care to Josef Mengele? There is no way Wefa can edit this area in a civil or reasonable manner. Dronebogus (talk) 04:58, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• It's bizarre to see opposes based on "too much paperwork" and what amounts to WP:DENY. Not only does Wefa compares their fellow editors to a Nazi figure and denies the existence of trans people, they clearly refuse to work within our policies and guidelines and sources go against their point of view, which can be seen on this report and on this earlier discussion on a topic in the same DS area. They are clearly a net negative on this area. Isabelle ^{🏴‍☠️} 10:13, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  It might be bizarre if any opposes were based on the premise of "too much paperwork." Would you care to point any out? Ravenswing 19:02, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I guess she's quoting me, but I don't really oppose a TBAN, so much as I just think a warning would be better than a TBAN ("too much paperwork" == "not worth the editor time to administer"). (What I really oppose is no action.) Levivich (talk) 15:22, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Warn per Levivich, although further disruption would merit a topic ban. starship.paint (exalt) 10:18, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per Tamzin. —VersaceSpace 🌃 16:50, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Wefa has shown they do not have the neutrality necessary to participate in this sensitive area. Should they develop that sensitivity at a later date, they the community can always re-evaluate, but for now- they are not a net positive contribution in this area and I am not convinced they have realized what the problem even is. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:36, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak Support Let me make it clear that I think a topic ban is completely appropriate…if we had an active editor here. The lack of activity on a long term account suggests that this isn’t going to prevent that much disruption. With all that said, I don’t think Wefa would be able to edit collaboratively on that topic should they become more active, so I’m supporting the ban. I also want to make it clear that it’s okay to have opposing views regarding stuff like this, and a TBAN simply for different views would be invalid. However, when you express those views in a soapbox post on an article and user talk it is no longer appropriate, just like it wouldn’t be if someone made the opposite argument in a soapbox comment on a talk page. Talk pages are to discuss improving the Wiki, the comparison to Mengle is nowhere near that. FrederalBacon (talk) 22:33, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per above, and the fact this thread is still going with no resolution — haven't we sunk enough time into this? — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 22:36, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per the above. AKK700 02:46, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose after seeing an editor above repeating "he doesn't understand what is acceptable in a GENSEX discussion" a couple of times. Since when is only one opinion acceptable in a discussion? A discussion requires people from both sides of the aisle, so to speak, being allowed to express their opinions, not just one side humming in unison. TBANning someone for daring to express an opinion that is very far from being fringe, and shared by a very large number of people violates the principle of freedom of speach, and Wikipedia is supposed to be free, and not censored. And please don't call me transphobic or anything like that for daring to oppose a TBAN based on the principle of freedom of speach, because you have no idea where I stand on GENSEX matters. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 15:13, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  One opinion is not acceptable in a GENSEX discussion, but more than one opinion is also not acceptable in a GENSEX discussion, because WP:NOTFORUM and WP:NOTSOAPBOX means that nobody should be giving their opinion about GENSEX issues in a GENSEX discussion. The only acceptable GENSEX discussion is one about RSes. The posts at issue here were straight-up preaching a political viewpoint. Wikipedia is free and not censored -- that's the mainspace articles -- but talk pages are not free, and they are censored, e.g. by WP:NOT policy and the WP:TALK guideline. There is no freedom of speech on talk pages. The reason I support a warning (and oppose no action) is because it is not OK for an editor to express their political opinions on article talk pages. (The reason I prefer a warning over a TBAN is because it's a first offense and hasn't been repeated since.) Levivich (talk) 15:21, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @Thomas.W: are you saying that a very large number of people believe that doctors who provide healthcare to transgender people are the equivalent of Josef Mengele? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:24, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I hate to say it HEB, but that's probably true. First, trans people aren't exactly widely accepted in the US or in the West--in some parts, sure, but a majority? Not sure. Second, think of the rest of the world. A majority of the world still doesn't accept homosexuality; I doubt a majority accepts even the concept of gender identity (as distinct from biological sex). Heck, I doubt a majority of the world even accepts interracial, interreligious, or interethnic marriage. Sad but probably true. Levivich (talk) 15:29, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Theres a difference between not accepting it and thinking that contemporary doctors are in general comparable to the absolute worst that industrialized, putatively civilized, man is capable of. I will desist because dwelling on it puts me in a dark mood. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:46, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  We don’t pander to cultural relativism on Wikimedia. There was one admin on Amharic WP that was extremely homophobic, as is typical in Ethiopia (where Amharic is principally spoken) and he was still banned from WM. If you’re a vocal bigot, you’re out. Dronebogus (talk) 11:35, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  lol, "pander to cultural relativism" is a funny way of saying "tolerate other people's cultures". I guess it's just your culture we should tolerate? This is why I (and others) don't support promoting NONAZIs beyond an essay. Sure we can all agree about being tolerant of people regardless of their gender identity (or sexual orientation or ethnicity), but what about... [insert list of divisive cultural issues]? This is a slippery slope. That's why our "rule" isn't "you must agree with Western values," it's WP:NOTFORUM/WP:NOTSOAPBOX, as Tamzin explains below. "Bigot", like beauty, is too often in the eye of the beholder. Levivich (talk) 14:16, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I don’t see why I’m supposed to take seriously someone whose first word in their response is “lol” Dronebogus (talk) 08:29, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Well, it's a good thing then that transgender existence and transgender health, like evolutionary biology and vaccines, are topics where WP's content is to be based on reliable sources and not on opinion polling. Newimpartial (talk) 18:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  To be clear, this isn't about TBANning someone for having the wrong opinion. Plenty of people edit constructively in the GENSEX area—as all areas—despite having strongly-held controversial views. It's not even per se about admitting to having that opinion in a talkpage discussion. I don't think we'd be here if he'd said, in passing in a discussion, "Personally I think all of this should be illegal"; that would go against NOTFORUM, but not in a way that usually leads to sanctions. No, this is about someone using talkpages to rant about their political views. The fact that those views are divisive makes it worse; it is immaterial whether they are right or wrong. If someone were saying "All people who oppose puberty blockers for transgender youth are doing so purely out of a desire to drive them to their deaths", and then doubling down as Wefa has here, I would support sanctions there too. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 00:41, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree with you Tamzin but if you read DB's comment above, it isn't at all clear that this isn't about TBANing someone for having the wrong opinion. DB is expressly saying the opposite. Levivich (talk) 14:16, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  No, I was refuting that your apparent appeal to the majority and appeal to cultural relativism to excuse (but not endorse) an egregious statement (that transgender care is morally equivalent to Nazi human experimentation). I might’ve been wrong to say “bigot” instead of “bigotry” (since it’s the offensive, extreme statement itself which is the problem here, not what the user and their opinions) Dronebogus (talk) 08:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I would’ve let this slide if Wefa hadn’t brought godwin’s law into this mess; personally I find their general subject commentary grating and inappropriate but not ban worthy. Dronebogus (talk) 08:39, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I haven't excused anything and don't try to turn this on me because I disagree with you. Levivich (talk) 14:08, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support due to their comments here. Gusfriend (talk) 11:52, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - I find it ridiculous to consider banning a user for making a single talk page post that, as far as I can tell, does not violate any policies. I'll grant that Wefa's language is somewhat hyperbolic, but their basic view - that performing surgery or hormone injections on children under 18 in order for them to look more like the opposite sex is immoral - is a significant mainstream view, and probably even the majority view around the world. Not that I'm a fan of banning people for their views in any context, but to ban someone for holding this particular view makes no sense. And no, I don't think they disrupted anything. Korny O'Near (talk) 00:42, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  An editor who trivializes and ridicules gender-affirming surgery ("getting surgery is a choice, just like running for president") should probably not be offering their opinion about what forms of POV advocacy are or aren't disruptive, and it is questionable whether such an editor ought to be participating in GENSEX TBAN discussions, at least not by !voting. Newimpartial (talk) 18:06, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not sure you know what "ridicule" means. Korny O'Near (talk) 21:41, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'd go with the act of making fun of someone or something in a cruel or harsh way. Comparing access to gender-affirming surgery to being eligible to run for POTUS strikes me as both cruel and harsh. Newimpartial (talk) 21:48, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I think that comment reasonably disqualifies their opinion in this matter, not that their argument (based on opinions on the perceived reasonableness of Wefa’s views on transgender care, ignoring the fact that they’re delivering them in a WP:BATTLEGROUNDy way) was all that great. Dronebogus (talk) 16:41, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. IMHO, just the idea to put transgender care and Josef Mengele in the same sentence would justify a TBAN from all gender-related materials. —Sundostund (talk) 00:55, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• 'Oppose no serious violation, he expressed himself, let's move on instead of targeting him for his opinion.Lmharding (talk) 08:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Wikipedia is not a free speech forum. Dronebogus (talk) 16:41, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - the statement Apparently there exists a sizeable minority or even majority here who is complete unable to concede that the term "gender affirming care" (which includes not only primary sex surgery but also things like mastectomies and chemical castration (aka puberty Blockers) is an ugly euphemism for mutilation of children is essentially a statement that Wefa's feelings about the topic take precedence over what reliable sources actually say about the topic, and that because editors are unable to concede that the sky is actually puce, that this is a problem with the Wikipedia community. Elaborating such solipsistic views on WP Talk pages is inherently disruptive, and people who are unable to concede that their personal reality has diverged from the reality documented in reliable sources are not qualitied to participate in WP in areas where they are unable to restrain themselves in expressing their, umm, idiosyncratic POV.
• I would ask those placing "Oppose" !votes why they think the TBAN is a bad idea - do they want to see Wefa make more such comments so that we come back here again? There is no suggestion that they are likely to comport themselves any differently on this topic in future... Newimpartial (talk) 15:27, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  As one of the "Opposers" - I see no problem with the way they have comported themselves, either in talk pages or in articles. We accept people with all different political opinions here, as long as they make reasonable edits, and that seems to be the case with this user. Korny O'Near (talk) 15:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  It probably doesn't hurt that you share their opinion about the immorality of trans healthcare. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The admin-supported left wing rules by majority, even though there is no policy allowing such, NPOV on this particular topic is even hard to define, let alone implement, in such spirit, and this part of Wikipedia has essentially been captured as the left's propaganda arm. I came here with a good faith suggestion to make this article more NPOV, and that was roundly rejected. Now, given there is no consensus, I would have as much right to be bold and just change things as all the left wing "owners" of this article who do this all the time, but the practice is different. While non-consensus changes by me would, given enough persistence on my part, result in me getting banned, the exactly same actions by the lw majority would and constantly do have no such consequences.

  This is not a reasonable edit - it expresses the editor's opinion that their personal intuitions, rather than a discussion of sources based on WP policy, ought to determine what NPOV means in a specific (ACDS) domain, and that because the editor is right about this, they would be justified in edit warring against consensus reality even though it could result in a community ban. (Even the editor's opinion that their individual dissent is sufficient to deny consensus to article text already represents a degree of solipsism.) This is not a reasonable edit by an editor who is able to contribute to a collaborative project, at least not in this domain. Newimpartial (talk) 16:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The user was clearly making a rhetorical point about double standards, not actually threatening to engage in an edit war. Ironically, by calling for banning them, I think you're making Wefa's point even better than they could themselves: people on the other side of the argument (about Libs of TikTok, etc.) do routinely revert changes without consensus, but this user risks being banned for just talking about doing the same thing. Korny O'Near (talk) 16:41, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  You are nicely sidestepping the question, "what is the consensus among the reliable sources on this topic?", which is where the "two sides" WP:FALSEBALANCE civil POV argument goes to die. Newimpartial (talk) 16:48, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Depends on the topic, of course. Given that this user doesn't seem to have made any bad edits to any articles, this seems like a strictly theoretical discussion. Korny O'Near (talk) 17:32, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  There is no reason to excuse disruptive POV rants on Talk just because an editor doesn't follow through in article space. Newimpartial (talk) 17:46, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose: I tend to agree with Ravenswing's view here. I would warn them per Levivich but removing them the first time they screw up in expressing their views isn't going to result in articles written from a wide ranges of edits. If they haven't been taken to ANI in the past them give them some leeway and help them learn what is/isn't OK. Springee (talk) 18:28, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Their statements are simply explanatory toward them not being able to properly edit in this topic area. Also, what I've gathering from the comments above is that we have a significant amount of editors (at least in this discussion) that are openly bigoted toward the LGBT community. A lot of this is very mask off in showing said editors' true colors. Silverseren^C 22:57, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. It's clear from their comments here that this is not an area in which they are capable of constructive collaboration, and I think some gentle guidance towards topics they are more suited for would be helpful. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:46, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Warn This is complex and I have a lot of sympathy for the arguments from the support side. Beyond the hate speech, I read Wefa's words more in terms of "resignation", someone who considers themselves defeated, but will remain unbent no matter what...one great big middle finger at consensus...but that appears to be it...I'm struck that to date, we've not been presented with evidence of disruptive activity in the realm of content creation or content discussion (please correct me if I'm wrong). So, what is the consequence? We are asked to support this on the basis of preventative action, but we have no evidence of acts ... we are asked to infer that these statements are strong indications of a willingness to act (whereas the words, on face value, reflect the opposite). I'd argue the subtext to Wefa's outburst is to seek to prove that no dialogue (by their definition) is possible - by being "censured" they are confirmed in their point of view. They more or less consciously recognise they cannot meaningfully dispute scholarly consensus on the issue and they are unable to dispute community consensus. So this gesture. I would support a TBAN if there was evidence of them being shown to impede content creation or content discussion. I'd note that the London Review of Books last month published a letter in the most prominent position of the letters' page from a transphobe with a cogent, critical reply. It's a fine line, but talk pages and ANI are not a school, a public library, a newspaper, a university, or a board room ... it's the engine room (or maybe ANI is the janitor's closet). We should place this in the context of the consequence of the action, not our own perceptions of the somewhat nebulous possibility of where this might lead. Yes to admonish and warn, at this point, but refrain from stepping beyond our own frameworks to provide this editor with that they seek: proof of their righteousness. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 08:49, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose or Warning, at the most. I agree with Ravenswing and Levivic. I don't see any disruptive behaviour - they didn't touch the article namespace, they just expressed their views on the talk page. Reminding them about WP:SOAPBOX would be enough as really there's nothing sanctionable here. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:48, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support The issue to me is not one of hate speech or having the wrong opinions but simply whether the user is here to build an encyclopedia, and in particular whether they can be trusted to edit the topic area constructively. Therefore, to say that they have been "warned" about their comments is insufficient because it's not really about whether they'll say them again or not, it's that by those comments they have already shown that they will not be able to edit constructively in the GENSEX area. Pinguinn 🐧 07:47, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as premature: they haven't edit warred or pushed their opinions into any articles, so a topic ban would be an overreaction imv. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 00:02, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I will appreciate your insight here on the article Parga. Despite expressing my opposition to the use of extremist source, Xhufi, an extremist far-right Albanian politician known for his extreme bias against foreign countries and nations and for his nationalist propaganda, editors keep edit warring to have that scholar used regardless of whether other editors have expressed their legitimate concerns about that particular source. Furthermore, they haven't waited for consensus on the talk page, and are quick into reinstating the disputed source to the article even though they were supposed to discuss, not brute-force their new source to the article. - ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:19, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

SilentResident. This is obviously a content dispute that is currently being discussed on the article talk page, as you know. ANI does not adjudicate content disputes. If edit warring is going on, file a report at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. If you believe that a work by Pëllumb Xhufi is not a reliable source, make your case at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. You also have various forms of Dispute resolution available to you. Cullen328 (talk) 00:41, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328: as an uninvolved admin, can you please tell SilentResident to stop calling Xhufi a "extremist far-right Albanian politician"? I am not involved in that content dispute and I would not prefer using Xhufi as a source, but calling a living notable person on Wikipedia that way is a breach of WP:BLP IMO. That part of the comment should probably be deleted. Xhufi does not belong to the far right and is not an "extremist" at all, whatever that term is supposed to mean here. Ktrimi991 (talk) 09:38, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• SilentResident, weren't you going to do a report to determine that Xhufi is not a reliable author? Why do you expect users to be okay with the removal of his works when the report hasn't been made? Super Ψ Dro 12:03, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Third party academic scholars informed me that they are preparing a detailed analysis on Pëllumb Xhufi's reliability. That's why I am not rushing right away for the RSN because more material on the politician, can prove always helpful for Wikipedia to understand whether this person is reliable as a source. Not that the content and evidence found already thus far, isn't sufficing for the RSN to determine.

You stated "Why do you expect users to be okay with the removal of his works when the report hasn't been made?" but you are reminded that a growing number of WP:RS already disputed and challenged Xhufi's credibility but the users chose to ignore this, insisting -without presenting proof to Wikipedia- that Xhufi is reliable. How is Xhufi reliable when editors havent provided any WP:RS supporting Xhufi in face of the WP:RS that have discredited Xhufi's objectivity as a scholar? This is not okay I am afraid. Until the RSN concludes on Xhufi, the legitimate concerns over Xhufi's reliability may not be ignored and the legitimate concerns of editors are not less legitimate. There is no such guideline stating such a thing. In our case here the users wanting to use Xhufi's work, are fully aware about the WP:RS disputing Xhufi as a WP:RS and have two options: 1) to either provide WP:RS defending Xhufi as a reliale author, or 2) provide WP:RS debunking the other RSs discrediting Xhufi's reliability as an author. The users have done nothing of that. Instead, they chose editwarring to add Xhufi without wp:consensus to the articles and by ignoring the concerns of verification. The editors are reminded that WP:VERIFY is a core content policy in Wikipedia and when there is no consensus for using a particular source, then the editors are asked to provide independent third-party sources verifying that information provided by the extremist politician. This helps addressing any editorial concerns adequately IMO.

If it is wrong to have legitimate concerns over an author (whose credibility is questioned by other scholars) and to ask just for any third party independent RS, then please correct me because I have read again and again the Wikipedia's guidelines on WP:VERIFIABILITY and there is no such a thing as a guideline recommending that this Core Content Policy can be superseded by personal editorial POV(!) which can ignore the WP:RS(!) discrediting an extremist politician. This is just the pure definition of "not okay", if you ask me.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 12:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: this is exactly what I am talking about when I say that this whole thing is worrisome: just now, at Parga, another Albanian account came from nowhere, from a different topic area and reinstated the new additions to the article they have never edited previously in their life, all this just to add Pëllumb Xhufi back to the article [11] through brute-forcing and without participating in the talk page nor providing any third-party reliable WP:RS. The fact that too many Albanian accounts are working together persistently to brute-force content while disregarding Wikipedia's WP:VERIFIABILITY and not working through WP:CONSENSUS-building at the talk page is exactly part of the broader issue of Albanian WP:TAGTEAM to which User:Coldtrack has pointed out recently [12] at the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:52, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of talking about "tagteaming" and "Albanian accounts" here, try one of the dispute resolution ways. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:02, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The dispute resolution is supposed to be followed by all editors, not edit war to brute force your unreliable sources instead of waiting for dispute resolution like how you did now. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:38, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What? I am not involved in that content dispute and I did not revert you. It seems that you are very confused at this point. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:47, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are. Sorry. Lack of direct editing on the specific article doesn't exactly make you any less involved. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:07, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You must be kidding. I hope you are not blaming an "Albanian account" for the actions of another "Albanian account". In any case, it is not clear what you are trying to say and what do you seek here at ANI/I, and it is clear nobody will solve your content dispute here. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:11, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Per the points raised here by SilentResident, I remind all editors who wish to include material originating from Xhufi that per WP:ONUS, "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content". It doesn't say force it on until a consensus disapprove of it. --Coldtrack (talk) 18:14, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

PS. As regards the denialism that Xhufi represents far-right extremist viewpoints, perhaps objectors could enlighten the community by distinguishing the views of far-right Albanians from the views of Xhufi, and where they are on record as opposing his works. --Coldtrack (talk) 18:16, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

SilentResident, perhaps you are correct and works by Pëllumb Xhufi should not be considered reliable. I do not know. But the place to make that determination is at WP:RSN as you know. Asserting over and over that he is unreliable without going to that noticeboard is not acceptable. So, either go to RSN or drop the subject. It is also not acceptable to belittle other editors for being Albanians. Do not ever imply that another editor should be disregarded simply because of their ethnicity. That is unseemly and disruptive. Cullen328 (talk) 18:28, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

P. Xhufi is quite active in local national rhetoric (in TV shows etc.). Statements such as this [[13]] show clearly that he is personally involved in promoting a national agenda: he does not hesitate to accuse the Greek government (since the creation of the Greek state) of anti-Albanian activity. Definitely this isn't the kind of neutral scholarship.Alexikoua (talk) 18:54, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Have you considered posting a RSN? Cullen literally said "the place to make that determination is at WP:RSN". Alltan (talk) 19:02, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cullen328 Without prejudice over anybody's national identity, I have read every comment on this thread including the all-important original post. I infer that SilentResident was basically using this noticeboard to say, "the behaviour of numerous editors is unacceptable" and may have hoped that admins take a deeper look into who is doing what. Although conventionally it seems that this project page is normally focused on one accused person. This time he was saying that a team of about three are slithering their way across multiple articles and posting dubious material. To that end it is not an ANEW matter in the strictest sense, and with regards RS debate, it is definitely the case that no less than one person is violating ONUS as I stated above. So in SilentResident's situation, I'm not sure myself where to have gone to raise complaints about one cabal operating widely. --Coldtrack (talk) 19:07, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328 and Coldtrack:Thank you both very much. Now if you allow me, just for clarity: as soon as I get my hands on the new Autumn 2022 reports on Xhufi by Western scholars who view that politican as unreliable scholar, you have my word that I will make haste for the RSN. Just like how you said, there is no Wikipedia guideline suggesting that consensus is not necessary until the RSN. And to clarify that when I say "Albanian accounts": I am specifically talking about accounts focusing specifically on the two Albanian Topic Areas: Albania and Kosovo; It is important to make a clear distinction on what the term Albanian refers there. All the accounts involved into brute-forcing Xhufi into Wikipedia, share a common characteristic in the sense that they are mainly editing the 2 Albanian topic areas. Its important to make this clear because - my mistake- I assumed everybody would understand that, since obviously it makes no sense to refer to them as "Albanian accounts" in an ethnic sense - that makes no sense, since I can't verify the nationality of editors nor it matters for Wikipedia, nor I know anyone here caring at all about Ethnicities. But I am referring to these accounts in an Topic-Area context: it is a common characteristic of the WP:Balkans that accounts from one topic area, often share views and cooperate to this end, which, at first glance, is not harmful to Wikipedia, yes, but when a great deal of it involves ignoring WP:ONUS and WP:RELIABILITY, then it is worrisome and goes against the Wikipedia project's goal which is to steer away from nationalist authors and dubious sources. Next time I will use the term "Topic Area" to avoid any potential misunderstandings again, and will mention this again only if from a technical perspective (i.e. whether it is important for Admins to understand what is going on there). Good day.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 19:09, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Coldtrack: There is large scale tendency to promote sources such as Xhufi, while on the other hand removing multiple academic publications that don't fit with Xhufi's POV. One example is the removal of published works by A. Spiro (linguist of the University of Tirana) with the excuse that he doesn't agree with the national POV as Ktrimi explained [[14]]. Removals&reverts are performed in wp:TAGTEAMING fashion, as shown here: [[15]]. Also several wp:RS have been removed due to the same as part of the same fashion (to name a view scholars: Skendi, Vakalopoulos, Hasiotis, Tsiknakis, Kofos) in favor to POV narratives by Xhufi. Those editors that insist on the removal of those authors never filled an RSN they just resort in TAGTEAMING.Alexikoua (talk) 00:52, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Peloponnese

@Cullen328 and Coldtrack: I think it is getting out of control and spilling over even more articles: the accounts from the Albania Topic Area are again brute-forcing their new additions to more articles, such as Peloponnese today, and that's only one day after the similar incidents at Parga, where, once again, they disregarded any need for achieving WP:CONSENSUS on the talk page, having ignored what WP:ONUS says. Even if I agreed/disagreed with the new additions and intervening the one way or the other, I have no faith that my voice matters anymore in Wikipedia in front of this large WP:TAGTEAM of editors who always get things done their preferred way through edit-warring instead of WP:BRD and following the guidelines by seeking WP:CONSENSUS and WP:DISPUTERESOLUTION at the relevant talk pages. IMO, the whole editiorial behavior of disregarding Wikipedia's rules, is in my opinion really worrisome, since it is extremely disruptive and shows that the one side with numerical superiority has become unstoppable and is acting as if it WP:OWN Wikipedia, and can do whatever it wants, disrupting the normal editorial progress. And of course, I can't think of where myself to go complain about that new incident! Technically, they didn't violate 3RR, so the 3RR Noticeboard is not really an option here, so Coldtrack's words: "I'm not sure myself where to have gone to raise complaints about one cabal operating widely." echoe now louder than ever. I am posting here for one last time, because WP:DISPUTERESOLUTION, the policy in Wikipedia for such behaviors in disputes, states that: "Issues of conduct may be addressed at the incidents noticeboard, and may be taken to the arbitration committee for more complex disputes.". Any help from the Admins will be really appreciated. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 19:37, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

SilentResident, please name the members of this "cabal" or "tag team", provide diffs of the most problematic edits, and inform those editors of this discussion. Cullen328 (talk) 19:44, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cullen328 Sorry to bother you but may I ask if the diffs have to be from a specific article only? Because the issue spans multiple articles such as Parga before Peloponnese, and even Greek War of Independence before that, and more. I'm mentioning these 3 articles here for now because they are fresh in my memory and happen to be the most recent cases, all of them occuring during the current month, September 2022). If any clarity is provided on the criteria for the diffs you seek as to determine the range of diffs allowed to present here, that will be appreciated and I will try to do my best. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 20:01, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

SilentResident, no, the diffs do not need to be limited to one article, but they should clearly show the problematic behavior. Cullen328 (talk) 20:12, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Those are disputes where many editors from Greece and Albania find an interest to edit. SR will only show some diffs of "Albanian accounts" reverting "Greek accounts". @Cullen328: why do not you ask SR why they see a "cabal" or "tag teaming" only among "Albanian accounts" and not among "Greek accounts" too? I am not saying there is "tag teaming" among "Greek accounts", there is no evidence for any kind of "tag teaming". I just think that these "tag teaming" accusations are personal attacks against perceived opponents. As such, without clear evidence of a "cabal", they should result in a block for personal attacks or at least a warning. These "tag teaming" accusations have become common among some Balkan editors. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:38, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ktrimi991, that is why I am asking for evidence. Cullen328 (talk) 20:43, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ktrimi991, if you are aware of any issues of editorial misconduct, then it will be appreciated if you bring them to the admin's attention.

Now, if you allow me, I can't help but express my concerns about your reply's tone suggesting a culture of collective responsibility by pointing that "other sides did that too". You are reminded that no side has immunity from the project's rules - everybody here is to be scrutinized for their actions, including me (per WP:BOOMERANG) and that's a fact.

In case you missed what my concerns here are: is the fact accounts appearing collectively in certain articles the Greece topic area on articles which most of these accounts never edited before (since their focus is mainly the Albania topic area), yet are quick to edit war instead of discussing and seeking a compromise, at the expense of Wikipedia's guidelines, consensus and dispute resolution procedures. Resulting in all these articles in the Greece topic area having currently a revision not reflecting a talk page consensus, and the newly-added content to them isn't the result of compromises between the sides, is rather a revision imposed. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 21:28, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of such walls of text, post what you think is evidence of "tag teaming". Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:32, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cullen328 I am working on it, and will have something to present very shortly. It is a fair amount of work, so please bear with me. Khirurg (talk) 04:18, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This report has been open for 2-1/2 days, and so far, we have:

• no lists of alleged "cabal" or "tag team" members, and
• no required notifications to the accused, and
• no reports to the reliable sources noticeboard, and
• no reports to the edit warring noticeboard, and
• no set of diffs showing a pattern of disruptive editing.

Instead, we have unsupported assertions that an Albanian academic is unreliable (maybe he is and maybe he isn't) and unsubstantiated accusations that unnamed editors who work on Albanian topics are misbehaving. To say that I am unimpressed at this point is an understatement. Maybe I will wake up tomorrow morning to find ample evidence. But so far, nothing. Cullen328 (talk) 06:23, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You have my sincere apologies for making you wait. It is not intentional, just I am back from my work in real life and I do not have access to my PC from work. Since you clarified to me that the report doesn't have to be limited to a select few articles, and since the issue spans more articles than the fingers of our hands, its obvious that I will need some time to prepare the large report. In this context, I was hopeful that the ANI can give me the required time to work on the reports on an issue that has been spanning in time range not a single month but whole years? If the ANI is eager to close the current discussion, thats fine, I can open a new one once I have it ready. I speak only for myself though, I cant speak for editors Khirurg and Ktrimi991, though, whether they got their/any reports to submit and if they can do that even faster than me, then maybe the ANI can give them a chance.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 07:16, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am not willing to make "tag teaming" accusations here; after all those are controversial Balkan topics that can easily attract attention from editors. Editing an article is not illegal. In any case, I am waiting for the evidence you and Khirurg will provide. If admins judge it is of value, I can enrich it with more evidence. There are many cases to be discussed in that case, not only among "Albanian accounts". But I really doubt admins will find your evidence of value; as I said, articles are open for editing to every editor. Just editing an article does not make you part of a "tag team". And even if one does see "tag teaming", proving it is extremely difficult. Cullen328, for the record, last November Khirurg was warned and then blocked by User:Bbb23 after making accusations including "tag teaming" accusations. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:35, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the slow reply. I don't know what happened between you and Khirurg last November, but I have my serious concerns and I am not alone here; such concerns are shared on the ANI by least 2 other editors too, which itself is more than enough to require ANI attention this time. If indeed there is no tag-teaming as you claim, then there is nothing the other editors may be afraid of. The report will be submitted and left upon the Admins to evaluate. If the Admins deem these incidents to not be a case of Tag-teaming and conclude that there is no such behavioral pattern, then the filler ought to trust and accept their judgement and offer a honest apology to the other editors for which these concerns are about. In mean time, it is recommended that all editors familiarize and abide by the Wikipedia's guidelines, because even if the Admins do not deem these incidents or what happened at Peloponnese to be a case of tag-teaming, still is a serious disruption violating Wikipedia's guidelines regarding dispute resolutions and consensus-building, not a mere "Just editing an article" as you might think here. Now if you excuse me, expect no more responses before the report's submission. It is just "walls of text" as you said. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:07, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Its not the first time you make such accusations and like I said sometime ago, this is just WP:WITCHHUNT! I hope this time ends once and for all because I am sick of it. Taking part in those hot Balkan topics is normal for anyone. All of you do the same even in Albanian related topics from the north to the south and no one has accused any of you of Team Tagging. Some of you has taken part in discussions about the name of some unknown towns in Kosovo, which to me is quite bizarre to say the least, but no one has ever accused you of something. Now you are accusing "Albanian accounts" why the take part in Albanian related topics? Several Admins has intervened in lot of those discussions and for the most part, changes were confirmed and the articles were improved. Have a good day! -- Bes-ARTTalk 16:42, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence

OK, here we go. There is a group of editors who all share a similar background, as can be seen by their contribs, that behaves in a matter best described as WP:TAGTEAM on Balkan articles. The main purpose is to circumvent 3RR so as to prevent insertion of undesired material, and insert disputed material by brute force. It has been going on for a long time (off the top of my head I would say it started in early 2020), but it has been getting steadily worse in that past few months, when Çerçok (talk · contribs) returned from a 3 month break, and has reached an absolute crescendo in recent days (the first six examples are from the past few days alone). Now, while it is very common for editors who share interests to participate in the same disputes, as the evidence below will show, the nature of the behavior in question is of markedly different intensity and quantity. Particularly noticeable are instances of editors who have never shown the slightest interest in an article showing up to revert within minutes or even seconds, suggesting some form of coordination, possibly via live chat. Also of note is the fact that some of these articles are absolutely peripheral to the Albania topic area, yet the intensity of the behavior is the same as if they were core articles. The evidence below is arranged roughly chronologically. I am aware it is very long, but just to give you an idea of the intensity of the disruption, this is what I was able to gather quickly going off my memory, and even then this list is not exhaustive. As this evidence was gathered somewhat hastily, if you see any mistakes please point them out and I'd be happy to correct them. If the below evidence is too much and you just want to focus on the most egregious examples, I'd say those are International Recognition of Kosovo, Greek War of Independence, Himara, List of Albanians in Greece, and Messapic language. Update: Since I filed this report, my watchlist has been extremely quiet. I don't think it's a coincidence. Cullen328, Coldtrack, I was wondering if you had a chance to view the evidence and had any feedback, in particular as to what might contribute an appropriate venue for it (ANI does not appear to be the right venue).

• 0. Kitsos Tzavelas Article history: When Botushali got involved in an edit-war at Kitsos Tzavelas, Alltan shows up to revert within minutes at an article he had never edit before [16]' or shown any interest in previously. These are the same two users that used identical edit-summaries with seconds of each other at another article [17] [18]. He is then backed up by User:Ahmet Q. [19], who has also not edited the article previously.

• 1. International Recognition of Kosovo, 7 reverts in ~48 hours by 5 different users. Article history: Initial, non-revert edit by Uniacademic [20], revert by Ktrimi991 [21], Maleschreiber [22], S.G ReDark [23] (a relatively new user who had never edited the article before), Ktrimi again [24], Ahmet Q. [25], Ahmet Q. again [26], followed within minutes by Durazz0 [27], who prior to that hadn't edited in weeks. Durazz0 in particular is not very active lately [28], but always shows up at just the right time to revert [29] [30], !vote [31], or complain to an admin on behalf of another user [32] [33]. Attempt at dispute resolution in the talkpage was initiated by the other party [34]/

• 2. Greek War of Independence, 12 reverts by 5 different users in a 4 day period (not including 3 days of page protection). Article history: Cercok [35], Excine who had never edited the article before, Ktrimi991 [36], Ktrimi991 [37], Cercok [38] (as soon as the page protection expired, Alltan [39], Alltan [40], Ahmet Q. [41], Ahmet Q. [42], Ktrimi991 [43], Ktrimi991 [44], Ahmet Q. [45].

• 3. Amantia, 2 reverts by 2 users who had never edited the article before, within 12 hours. Article history: Ahmet Q. [46] (never edited the article before), Lezhjani1444 who had never edited the article before, within minutes.

• 4. Parga, 5 reverts within ~24 hours by three different users, one of whom had never edited the article before. Article history: Cercok [47], followed by Alltan [48], Alltan [49], Uniacademic who has never edited the article before, Cercok [50].

• 5. Himara [51]: Maleschreiber [52], Maleschreiber [53], Ktrimi [54], Cercok [55], Cercok [56], Lezhjani1444 who has never edited the article before, Alltan [57], Botushali who has never edited the article before, then very interestingly Alltan shows up a few seconds later with a nearly identical edit-summary, then Cercok [58], then Cercok again [59]. The use of an identical edit summary by Alltan and Botushali seems to sugges that they had agreed upon this edit-summary off-wiki (e.g. via live chat) and Botushali beat Alltan to it by a few second. Something similar happened back in June at Kosovo between Uniacademic and Truthseeker2006 [60].

• 6. Peloponnese, 6 reverts by 3 users in 3 hours. Article history: Ahmet Q. [61], Ahmet Q. [62], Maleschreiber [63], Alltan within three minutes even though he has never edited the article before, Alltan again [64]. Attempt at dispute resolution initiated by me.

• 7. Arvanites [65]: Ahmet [66], Ahmet [67], Botushali [68].

• 8. Epirus revolt of 1611 [69]: Cercok [70], Alltan who had never edited the article before, Cercok [71], Alltan [72], Cercok [73]. Then again several days later: Maleschreiber [74], Alltan [75], Ahmet Q. [76], Cercok [77].

• 9. Dropull [78]: Lezhjani1444 [79], Lezhjani1444 [80], Lezhjani1444 [81], Alltan [82], Alltan [83], Ktrimi991 [84].

• 10. List of Albanians in Greece [85]: Ahmet [86], Ahmet [87], Maleschreiber who had never edited the article before, Ahmet [88], Maleschreiber [89], Durazz0 who had never edited the article before, within minutes, Ahmet [90]

• 11. Template:Greeks in Albania [91]: Ahmet [92], Alltan [93], Ahmet [94], Alltan [95], Ahmet [96].

• 12. Struga [97]: Alltan [98], Durazz0 [99], Durazz0 [100], Durazz0 [101], Botushali [102], Botushali [103].

• 13. Bratonozici [104]: Botushali [105], Botushali [106], Alltan [107], Alltan [108], Botushali [109], Durazz0 who had never edited the article before.

• 14. Piperi (tribe) [110]: Botushali [111], Alltan [112], Botushali [113], Durraz0 [114].

• 15. Kuči (tribe) [115]: Maleschreiber [116], Ahmet [117], Alltan [118].

• 16. Bjelopavlici [119]: Botushali [120], Alltan [121], Alltan [122], Botushali [123], Durazz0 [124].

• 17. Pristina [125]: Maleschreiber [126], Ktrimi [127], Ktrimi [128], Alltan [129].

• 18. Messapic language [130]: [131] (note the source falsification about "dialect"), Βατο [132], Βατο [133], Durazz0 who had never edited the article before, Ktrimi991 [134], [135]. In this instance, they ganged up on the hapless 3knolls, who had not idea what he was dealing with.

• 19. Bar, Montenegro [136]: Ktrimi991 [137], Ktrimi991 [138], Maleschreiber [139], Durazz0 who had never edited the article before, Maleschreiber [140], Ahmet [141].

• 20. Illyrian Emperors [142]: Ahmet [143], Βατο who had never edited the article before, Maleschreiber who had never edited the article before.

Of note is that Ahmet Q. (talk · contribs) has on several occasions asked users to activate their wikipedia email, ostensibly so as to "share sources" [144], but soon after this was done, the user Ahmet Q. instructed to activate emails starts showing to !vote [145] at RfCs and RMs that Ahmet Q. had just !voted, sometimes within minutes [146], despite these articles being relatively obscure. Ahmet Q. also did the same thing on Wikimedia Commons [147] with user Cercok on August 25. It could be a coincidence, but it is my impression that the intensity of the tag-teaming has been especially strong since then.

Also of note is that as a result of the tag-teaming on the Montenegrin tribes articles (Piperi, Bratonozici, Bjelopavlici etc.), Boki (talk · contribs) eventually became discouraged and gave up [148]. While a bit rash and inexperienced, this user seemed competent and promising, and this is a good example of the kind of result that tag-teaming can result in.

In closing, I'd like to point out that while I fully expect the accused parties to come out guns blazing and counter-accuse, there is a fundamental asymmetry here: Articles such as Greek War of Independence and Peloponnese are central to the Greece topic area, but peripheral to the Albania topic area - in 15 years of editing wikipedia, I have not seen editors from the Albania topic area edit these articles, until now, that is. So while it is to be expected that any perceived POV-push in these articles will result in a response from Greek topic area editors, given that many will have these articles watchlisted, it is highly unusual to see an even more intense response from Albania topic editors. Individually, it could be that some of the instances of apparent tag-teaming I have described could just be coincidences with a perfectly sound explanation, or just garden-variety edit-warring, but when the evidence is viewed in its totality, I strongly believe something is going on here. Whether it is off-wiki messaging (as I think is the case with at least some participants), email, or just contribs-following and a tacit agreement to back each other, I cannot say, but clearly something's up here, this isn't normal. I've been editing for 15 years, and I've never seen anything this intense, this massive, and this coordinated for so long. Khirurg (talk) 20:48, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As an editor not mentioned, but who very well could be, and someone who 90% of those articles mentioned above have it in his watchlist and followed all the discussions in question (mostly not intervening at all) I can say without a doubt that in absolutely most of the cases the editors were invited in the talk page to discuss the reverts or the changes. And many of them were resolved there with consensus by the editors in question. See for example Struga, Himara, and others' talk pages. What you have forgotten to put here are articles that you have taken part in yourself and resulted in you getting blocked or being warned about it because of your language used against the same editors in TP discussions. All you do whenever you don't like a change or sources like Xhufi is open discussion like this one, remove it at all costs, get the editors blocked, and restore the versions you like. And when no admin supports you, you just start another conspiracy against "Albanian accounts". -- Bes-ARTTalk 22:27, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Khirurg:, do not forget to notify the editors you are mentioning in your report. They will want to know. Add the following code to their talk pages please: {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ Thank you. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:39, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Khirurg: when you post accusations, you should at the very least notify said accused users, (an admin asked both you and SilentResident to do so many times already). Now, all the articles which Khirurg mentioned are under the scope of WikiProject Albania, and some of them are of top importance. I dare to consider myself one of the "veteran" users (been here for about 2 years) and I don't see what exactly the problem is that Khirurg is supposedly so concerned about. Articles which are under the scope of a small WikiProject will, at one point or another, inevitably concern most active users which are interested in such subjects. There are in total maybe 15-20 or so active “Albanian users”, so it's all too normal that they'll end up editing the same articles eventually. This is being made by Khirurg to sound as if the cases where they tend to agree show that they always agree with each or that they all support the same edits, but this is simply a misrepresentation by Khirurg. There are countless cases where some editors who agree on one thing, disagree on another or don't even edit similar articles. Even Khirurg's examples show such a thing because he has just cherry picked cases where some users will agree on a small issue, but there's still no overall agreement across all articles. What he has decided to leave out includes all the other cases where the same users who agree one thing, disagree with each other as is normal for all humans who don't cooperate. For myself I'll note that in Aliko, one of the articles which belong to the same subject as the articles listed by Khirurg, an edit I made [149][150] was reverted by Maleschreiber[151]. Other recent examples of Maleschreiber reverting me which come to mind include [152] and [153], this being one of the articles used as “evidence” by Khirurg. I also recall a case of me being reverted by Botushali, which happened just this July [154]. So when Khirurg then brings up an edit summary which I copied from Botushali's previous edit during an edit conflict, it's a distortion of reality which ignores that I both have disagreed and agreed with him and have been reverted by Botushali. Is this what people who are tag-teaming do, or is it what people who share similar interests but both agree and disagree occasionally do? It’s more likely the latter and not the former. Most of these subjects are very closely related, so when Khirurg claims that an edit of mine is the "first" I've ever done in the article Peloponnese(region of Greece), he somehow leaves out that I have hundreds of edits in articles which involve Albanians in Greece. Since August all 6 new articles I've created are about the history of Albanians in Greece [155]. This is a subject which I'm very passionate and interested about, but Khirurg presents my edits as if I just learned about the subject a minute before I made the edit. Another thing which Khirurg omits is what the disputes are about. In most of the cases, they exist because a couple of users (which in 9/10 cases include Khirurg) want to remove WP:RS from articles. Now, these reliable sources don't come just from Albanian historians, but are in fact most of the times works by ‘’Greek’’ historians whom some users are always trying to remove. My edit in Peloponnese exists solely because the same users who are always doing such things tried to remove Georgios Liakopoulos, a respected Greek historian from the Max Planck institute from the article: [156][157][158]. What exactly is illegitimate about my edit? Is Khirurg saying that some users can remove reliable sources, but users who have spent hundreds of hours writing about these subjects can't even edit related articles? This isn't even the first report by Khirurg where he tries to invoke interests in common subjects by people who have the same cultural background as a reason to ask for someone to get sanctioned. In an SPI against Ktrimi991 [159] Khirurg claimed that he is a sock of a banned user, essentially because both are Albanians and are interested in Albanian history.

So what is Khirurg's evidence? A series of edits which show that sometimes user’s who have similar interests, will agree with each other. In the same articles in which Khirurg finds agreement between some users, he should note all instances where all those who agree with each other either don't get involved in an article or actively disagree. In addition, he should note all instances where we find agreement on the "opposite" side of the aisle between users from WikiProject Greece and in fact in all instances (like the Peloponnese article) two or more users from WP Greece will do the same exact edit/revert (including Khirurg). This isn't "tag teaming" or disruptive when done by Khirurg, yet when other users have partially similar interests do it, it can only be disruptive and can never mean just a genuine interest in a subject.

In conclusion, I see one more content dispute which involves Khirurg and other long time users devolving into accusations by Khirurg that they are tag teaming just because they disagree with Khirurg about subjects which (as far as I remember) many of the mentioned editors always disagreed with him. Khirurg has repeated the same accusation in the past when he was blocked and this is the reply he got by admin Bbb23: "Second, you have accused other editors, some who have been around here for a long time (as have you), of tag teaming just because they disagree with you. That constitutes a personal attack. I strongly urge you to amend your behavior, or you will find yourself blocked." [160]

So yes Khirurg, this is indeed yet another outrageous case of editors who are interested in Albanian-related subjects editing articles related to Albanian subjects. A troubling development indeed.Alltan (talk) 00:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This way tl;dr, but just to note that of the 20 articles I've listed, only half are within WikiProject Albania. And that anyway does not explain the lightning quick reverts to articles you have never edited before, like Peloponnese (within three minutes). Khirurg (talk) 03:44, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Khirurg has listed twenty articles, out of which I (accused of tag-teaming) have edited only four. 4 out of 20... And I am often in disagreement with the people Khirurg accuses me of being in league with, see:

- with Ktrimi here: [161]

- with Maleschrieber here: [162]

- with AlexBachmann here:[163]

I contribute to Wikipedia as I know best, following wiki guidelines and adding RS content. I do not coordinate with anyone. I agree or disagree with each editor based on the merit/reliability of their edits. I am sure I am not an exception. Khirurg seems to have misportrayed the contributions of other editors here just like he has mine. These accusations are simply ridiculous. Çerçok (talk) 13:45, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The wp:TAGTEAM pattern is way too obvious but what surprised me personally was a strategy of full coordination as in the case of Himara Revolt of 1596: taking turns in the TAGTEAM process. So the revert sequence here is:

• [[164]] Cercok,
• [[165]] Alltan,
• [[166]] Ktrimi (who never participated before and without trace at talkpage), and then again
• [[167]] Alltan
• [[168]] Ktrimi
• [[169]] Alltan

After his 2nd revert Ktrimi991 immediately filled a report against me in order to block me for 3rr, but no wonder this disruptive pattern has been immediately noticed by uninvolved editor @Coldtrack: [[170]] [[171]]

Ktrimi also provides support to the more hesitant (revert)-editors of this team by removing warning messages in their talkpages: Here [[[172]], after Uniacademic performed a rv although he never showed any trace in article and tp before [[ [[173]]]] (as Khirurg noted above). The same support is also provided by Alltan [[174]]) obviously to encourage a more massive and coordinated campaign of this kind.

It is crystal clear that their main purpose is to increase their revert-warring fire power in order to promote a certain national POV and at the same time discouraging multiple editors from productive editing.Alexikoua (talk) 00:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: First of all, if my name is going to be brought up, I’d greatly appreciate being notified. Now, in regard to this report, I am actually offended that I am even being mentioned as a part of such a thing. The diffs of me on pages about Montenegrin tribes of Albanian origin are particularly annoying; if you bothered to check those diffs, you will find I was actually the first account to initiate the change on the article that there was a subsequent edit war over which was resolved in the TP. In fact, if you check my edit history, you will notice a lot of my work focuses on Albanian tribes. I have created multiple pages based on this topic and revamped or worked on several other pages also in this topic. Regarding Struga, I really do not see what is wrong. I participate heavily in Albanian-related topics in North Macedonia, which is why there is overlap between me and Alltan, who also seems to participate heavily in such topics. If you check the edit history there, it becomes extremely clear that I have contributed a lot to the page over time, not just for those diffs.

Arvanites is obviously extremely related to the Albanian topic area considering it literally is an article on the historic Albanians of Greece – my contributions to the Souliotes (another tribal-like Albanian community in Greece) page should clearly indicate that I am already involved in such matters. Himara is also of interest, I have monitored that article for a while and have been looking for sources on a particular matter; nonetheless, it is a site that seems to have played a role for Albanians in the Middle Ages, which is something I have also done much work on.

To conclude, the accusations made against me here are baseless, illogical and outright wrong. Furthermore, this accusation of multiple editors in the Albanian topic area working in collusion I find to be a clear application of double standards; multiple Greek topic area editors seem to collude and combine their efforts on small villages and the like in Greece and southern Albania, not that I am accusing them of tag teaming, but it is the same principle. However, what I find revealing is the collaboration of editors who focus on Greek topic areas when it comes to articles in Kosovo, or better yet, Serbia. When regarding the city of Niš in Serbia, which I have added to, Khirurg somehow randomly began to participate in the discussion – despite not being involved in the slightest in the Serbian topic area – petitioning for the removal of sources that discuss the existence of Proto-Albanians in the region [[175]].

Now, there have been many Kosovo RM’s, most of which I have played a role in, in recent years. Khirurg and other Greek editors have shown up together to vote !oppose and have never shown any interest to improve said articles, let alone participate in the general topic area of Kosovo. What should I do in my case? Complain that Khirurg and these other editors are tag-teaming against RMs? Khirurg's post boils down to the fact that there are many editors who are interested in the same subjects in the Balkans and the large majority do not agree with Khirurg regardless of their background. This isn't a problem of wikipedia and it's certainly not a reason to report anyone, but it is particularly interesting to see these editors in the Kosovo topic area. When I was looking at previous RM’s in preparation for my own requests, I noticed editors from the Greek topic area involving themselves in these RM’s which I found extremely strange:

• RM of Peja [[176]], users of note who voted !oppose in this discussion were Khirurg, Alexikoua, and SilentResident.
• RM of Lipjan (initiated by me) [[177]], Khirurg and SilentResident voted !oppose
• RM of Vushtrri (initiated by me) [[178]], surprise surprise, Khirurg and SilentResident voted !oppose here too.
• RM of Malisheva (2020, not initiated by me) [[179]], users who voted !oppose were Khirurg and Alexikoua
• RM of Malisheva (2021, not initiated by me) [[180]], users who voted !oppose were Khirurg and Alexikoua

For such small, unknown towns to receive convenient attention from the Greek topic area editors during RM requests seems awfully intriguing. Nonetheless, just wanted to get this out there so that all admins may observe the double standard here and perhaps something else at play. Botushali (talk) 01:19, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Botushali: you provided very few and sporadic edits that go back more than two years ago, nevertheless Khirurg provided solid clear evidence and this concerns quite recent activity. It's easy to conclude that your reply is too weak to oppose the huge amount of evidence provided above (not simply on voting but on revert warring). Most important this TAGTEAM pattern is massive and quite active as uninvolved editors have immediately noticed.Alexikoua (talk) 01:36, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alexikoua, just as you have the right to edit, revert, remove content so do others and I'm one of the people who has written the most content about these topics, so what's the accusation? I'm editing what I always edit or is the accusation that in this article Cercok and I agree, even though we disagree other times? If that's the accusation, then why you don't you mention all the (daily) articles where you are in disagreement with someone active in WikiProject Albania but nobody else joins the dispute? Where was a tag-team to support Ktrimi when you had a dispute with him in Lefter Talo just two days ago? While we're on this topic why don't you add all the diffs where you and Khirurg monthly do the same reverts? Parga: Alexikoua [181] Khirurg [182] Vuno: Alexikoua [183] Khirurg [184] Albanians in Greece: Alexikoua [185] Khirurg [186] Why doesn't tag-team apply to the two of you but applies to everyone else who you disagree with? Don't all others have the right to agree with each other in some topics or are you and Khirurg the only users who have the right to agree with each other?:Alltan (talk) 01:27, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Alltan, Khirurg filled a detailed report that concerns wp:TAGTEAM, a disruptive pattern that was also noticed by uninvolved editors at the Himara Revolt of 1596. This is obviously not just about edit, revert or remove content, but reverting in wp:NINJA fashion without trace of participation at any discussion as part of wp:TAGTEAM & BRD breaching while even encouraging such a disruptive activity (i.e. removing warning messages from the talkpages) among more hesitant members of the (TAG)TEAM is a serious accusation.Alexikoua (talk) 02:02, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alexikoua, I already mentioned once that decorating your comments with Wikipedia policies and with strong wording such as "crystal clear" do not make your arguments stronger. In your latest comment above this one, you said nothing of importance to attempt and refute Alltan's comment. If you will not engage in real debating, I ask you to desist from writing these comments; what you're doing is called WP:BLUDGEON. This report is already large enough. Super Ψ Dro 20:21, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alexikoua, saying that something is ”solid, clear evidence” does not make it so. In fact, this whole report is a besmirchment of many solid editors included myself, and I expect Khirurg to apologise for even mentioning me in such a way when I devote so much of my time to Wikipedia as a volunteer. Besides the fact that certain editors from the Greek topic area, including yourself, randomly collude at convenient times in completely unrelated RM’s of relatively unknown towns in Kosovo to vote against name changes to the Albanian form (interesting, right?), I also have below a list of recent cross-editing which you would call “tag-teaming” when it doesn’t concern you (again, double standards):

• 18th August 2022, Dropull article: Khirurg [187], Khirurg [188], Alexikoua [189], all in the space of 2 hours
• 13th September 2022, Himariote dialect article: Alexikoua [190], Khirurg [191]
• 25th-27th August 2022, Epirus Revolt of 1611 article: Khirurg reverts changes by Alltan made to an addition initially added by Alexikoua [192], Khirurg [193], Alexikoua [194], Khirurg again [195]
• 16th-18th August 2022, Chameria article: Alexikoua [196], Khirurg [197]
• 22nd September 2022, Himara article: Khirurg [198], Alexikoua [199], Khirurg [200]
• 15th September 2022, Himara article: Alexikoua [201], Khirurg [202]
• 6th September 2022, Souliotes article: Alexikoua [203], Alexikoua [204], Alexikoua almost violating 3RR rule [205], Khirurg [206]

Now, is this evidence of tag-teaming, or is it only tag-teaming when it is not involving Alexikoua and Khirurg? As far as I am concerned, this is exactly what I have been supposedly called out for, but I am not “tag-teaming”. I am editing topics that are relevant to WikiProject Albania, as I have always done, and nothing more. I am awaiting Khirurg’s apology for slandering my name and completely disrespecting the time and effort I put into Wikipedia – such accusations should not be taken lightly. I’ve noticed that he has already been in trouble for this behaviour prior to this report. Hopefully an admin can take control of the situation and stop this once and for all. Perhaps a block or even topic ban would be in order so that Khirurg may finally halt these behaviours that completely disrespect and devalue other editors here on Wikipedia. Alexikoua, baseless statements like “It's easy to conclude that your reply is too weak to oppose the huge amount of evidence provided above” do not prove anything – above I have provided reverts as well, but is it still too weak simply because it mentions your name? If you are going to accuse me of tag-teaming, I will be disappointed and will expect an apology from you too should an admin clear my name. Using strong wording doesn’t make your opinions or comments superior to anyone else’s, and you cannot simply dismiss things with no valid reasoning. The reverts may not be so bad – but the voting is extremely suspicious and I urge an admin to look into it. Botushali (talk) 02:15, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm actually there was no 3rr breach on Souliotes if you mean that. You also ignore to state that the above edits were always accompanied by tp participation: in most cases you point there was no more than 1rv per 24h and strictly following wp:BRD, no drive-by reverts or accounts that came from nowhere and simply wanted to support a supposed common national campaign as in the case of Khirurg's extensive report.Alexikoua (talk) 02:53, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Support a supposed common national campaign..." do you know how ridiculous that sounds? What exactly are you trying to implicate? Even then, most reverts I make I involve myself in the TP discussions for, unless it's not necessary. If you're innocent according to what you wrote above, then so am I. Very flawed report, very flawed comments and very flawed rebuttal of what I have put above. You RV'ed the same change three times (so correction on my part, almost* violating 3RR), and to prevent you from going to four, Khirurg came in to do the RV. If that's the case, I do not know, but had it been me or any other accused editor here, you would consider it evidence of "tag-teaming" due to the double standards you have quite clearly shown during the course of this report. Furthermore, I see that there was no comment in regards to the voting? You know the votes that uninvolved editors from the Greece topic area - who do not edit, comment or patrol pages in WikiProject Kosovo and have never done so - somehow randomly casted (same vote every time by the way, always !oppose) whenever an RM request was made to move a page to its common, official Albanian name? Very strange phenomenon, isn't it? Botushali (talk) 03:15, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What I don't see in the above walls of text is an explanation for how come you reverted at Himara within 14 minutes, even though you had never edited that article before, and how come literally seconds later Alltan showed up with an identical summary (but the edit was blank because you had already reverted). Khirurg (talk) 03:41, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not even sure why you're asking me. I've edited many other articles like Himara and I have it on my watchlist - as I said above I've been monitoring it for a while. Why shouldn't I revert there if I disagree with an edit? Why Alltan copied my edit summary is something which he should reply about but he already has done so as I can see above ("So when Khirurg then brings up an edit summary which I copied from Botushali's previous edit during an edit conflict, it's a distortion of reality which ignores that I both have disagreed and agreed with him and have been reverted by Botushali"). What's the accusation? Unlike you and Alexikoua who always have the exact same reverts, I have been in actual content disputes and disagreements with Alltan and I have reverted him. [207] just a few months ago. Botushali (talk) 04:33, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've edited many other articles like Himara doesn't explain how you showed up to revert within minutes at that article, despite never having shown any interest before. Your claim that you had been monitoring it for a whileis not verifiable. Your revert of Alltan occurred after first reverting me and insulting me Example text and the matter was referred to ANI [208]. So much more likely that was the reason, than any purported "disagreement". Khirurg (talk) 02:39, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have the article in my watchlist, bud. I've shown interest many times before in articles in which Albania and Greece overlap. Perhaps me monitoring it cannot be verified, but neither can me not monitoring it. The revert - if you look at the source, it did not even indicate what was said, so that's why I reverted Alltan. ANI didn't even do anything about what I said to you because it really wasn't that bad - especially in comparison to you and your track record of disrespect that you have littered throughout TP's and edit summaries towards your fellow editors. This whole report disregards the hard work of the editors you are accusing, including myself. I also would like to point out that you are yet to explain why you and other editors here have voted !oppose on articles that have nothing to do with the Greek topic area - rather, it is a topic area you have never attempted to improve, work on or add to, but conveniently you decide to vote !oppose when RM's are made attempting to move said articles to their rightful Albanian title. All in all, your unfounded conspiracy theories are getting boring and simply tiring - what's next? Tin foil hats? Botushali (talk) 02:12, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Be sarcastic all you want, but rest assured this is just starting, and there will be admin feedback, no matter what. By the way my watchlist has been extremely quiet literally since I filed this report. I wonder why. Khirurg (talk) 03:16, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good, I hope there's admin feedback, and I hope the admin tells you to quit this nonsense. That last line is exactly what I am talking about, not everything is a big conspiracy against you. It's just becoming a joke at this point... Botushali (talk) 03:28, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: I do not think that the aforementioned articles and diffs constitute "evidence of tagteaming". Someone might do a reasonable assumption that there is tagteaming going on, but the most profound explanation (Occam's razor) is that the users accused are watchlisting the pages. Albanian and Greek history intermingle too much and areas of debate (either mostly Greek or mostly Albanian) attract the attention of both Albanians and Greeks that are interested in history. Cinadon36 10:07, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The major problem with the report is that it is invoking WP:TAGTEAM which is neither a policy, nor even a well-defined concept. This is made clear in the first sentence of WP:FACTION: Tag teaming (sometimes also called an editorial camp or gang, factionalism, or a travelling circus) is a controversial[note 1] form of meatpuppetry in which editors coordinate their actions to circumvent the normal process of consensus. note 1: Controversial as there is no consensus regarding the merits of this essay in namespace. Editors have voiced a concern that the "characteristics" of tag teams can easily be applied to editors who share a common practice of editing in accordance with policy, and that the essay can be used as a weapon against editors who are acting in accordance with Wikipedia's editing policies to cast aspersions on their good work In this context, there's nothing to discuss in terms of policy because there is no policy to debate about. We can still use the discussion to define it in better ways so that it's not invoked as in the report. I think that for WP:TAGTEAM to exist it has be shown that a group of editors a)have a consensus which they push around by b)circumventing official channels of consensus-building. Point b) cannot be shown in this report because there are many discussions at all talkpages about finding a consensus and one is usually found eventually. The problem which Khirurg seems to have is that there are many more editors who support specific revisions and few who support specific other revisions. This isn't a problem of policy. Consensus tends to reflect the desire of the majority of editors to the extent that they can back it back up with sources and policies. There will never be a case where consensus will reflect what just 2 editors want (e.g. Khirurg and Alexikoua) but not what 20 others want to the extent that it can be backed with sources and policies(WP:NOTDEMOCRACY). There are many editors active in articles under the scope of WikiProject Albania and they don't coordinate and they certainly don't agree with each other on many subjects, but it's natural that to a degree a common cultural background will translate to a similar understanding of some subjects. This partial commonality is what Khirurg's diffs reflect in the same way that diffs which show Alexikoua's and Khirurg's common reverts highlight another partial commonality in reasoning. Point a) is where major flaws can be found because there is no consensus which these editors share. Others highlighted instances where they revert or disagree with each other. It can't be shown that a "WP:TAGTEAM" - even in a colloquial, non-policy manner - exists if the "members" of the team don't share the same consensus. Khirurg has created a narrative which I'm certain that he himself knows that it can't stand upon scrutiny. I'll highlight some instances which mention me in a very inaccurate way:
  • Illyrian emperors - according to a Khirurg I placed a revert in this article even though I had no prior edits. This makes it seem as if my only purpose for reverting was to support other reverts. In fact, for the past 2 years I have been re-writing parts of articles about individual Illyrian emperors[209][210], so me placing a revert at the list article about them is quite ordinary.
  • Kuči (tribe) is one of the main articles related to Albanian tribes and all editors involved in improving relevant articles have engaged with it. I have written close to 40% of that article and Alltan 14.5%.
  • Bar, Montenegro: Some were reverts were listed, but there was a discussion at RfC about these changes and the majority of editors supported them. There was disagreement and consensus-building which produced results(Talk:Bar, Montenegro#RfC). Consensus-building wasn't circumvented or ignored.
  • Epirus revolt of 1611: Khirurg leaves out the fact that I disagreed with Cercok too [211][212] and changed his edits as well. I've written 28% of the article. How is it possible that two users are acting as WP:FACTION if they disagree and change the edits of each other? A key problem when we perceive any situation in us vs them terms is that we often fail to see that the Others are separate individuals. That 2 editors disagree with a third editor doesn't mean that they agree with each other. This discussion absorbed much time from several editors for no reason and it should at least with a warning that if someone has an issue with a specific editor they should report just that editor to AE where the activity of both can be scrutinized instead of dragging in many other irrelevant editors. Long discussions shouldn't be repeated at ANI without a clear context based in policy. There's always a huge backlog at all boards because of such discussions.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:45, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  At Illyrian Emperors, you had zero edits to the article prior to reverting, and yet you reverted within minutes. Your explication that you have been re-writing parts of the articles about individual Illyrian emperors does not cut it. At Kuci, it doesn't matter what % of the article you have written: What matters is that we see the same pattern as all the other articles, namely, you and the others reverting round-robin fashion to prevent changes you do not want. It's the same pattern in all the articles. As for your disagreements with Cercok, those are trivial. Anyone can have disagreements like that. But none of that changes the central finding of this report. That you and a group of editors with similar views have engaged in round-robin reverting to either ram through changes by brute force, or to prevent undesirable additions. And in all these cases, neither you nor the other editors initiated attempts as dispute resolution (talkpage discussion, RfC, DRN, etc.). It was always the other party. Khirurg (talk) 02:20, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I have Illyrian Emperors in my watchlist as I've worked on most articles under that list. What is abnormal about me reverting when I was online about a subject I'm heavily involved in? Articles about Albanian tribes like Kuçi are some of the most high traffic articles under WikiProject Albania. I don't know what makes you think that this article could only get attention because of WP:TAGTEAM. It's interesting - from an anthropological perspective - that you consider "trivial", disagreements and reverts between two other editors but when you're reverted, that's when you consider it important. You spent too much time which you could have spent in better ways to write a long post about something which isn't a policy and you couldn't evidentiate even in the colloquial sense. The problem stems from your perception of "us vs. them". You just have to accept that everybody agrees and disagrees with everybody over a long period time. When they disagree with you, it isn't qualitatively more important as to be linked to something more than a disagreement.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:17, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I have Illyrian Emperors in my watchlist - I'm sure you do now, but it strains the imagination that you had back then, and there is no way you can prove that, so it's easy to claim. But it's not just one article, it's a whole bunch of articles, and the pattern is always the same. The problem stems from a group of highly motivated and organized users that see everything as "us vs. them", and the diffs clearly show this. And not coincidentally, all this madness started in early 2020. Btw, Botushali only reverted Alltan because I brought the issue to ANI and he was afraid he'd get blocked. The rest of your post is the perfect example of what is known as gaslighting. Khirurg (talk) 03:37, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Can you stop acting like you know everything? I reverted Alltan because he misused a source, which is something I discovered upon closer inspection. You didn’t bring the issue to ANI - ElderZamzam did, but it is interesting that you immediately got involved there, and that Elder recently brought up the Xhufi discussion in a completely unrelated article despite me not being involved in the slightest with the Xhufi discussion. Are you trying to admit something here? I wonder why you implicate yourself as the person who brought the issue to ANI. Additionally, another extremely curious thing to note is that you have not discussed why you and other editors from the Greek topic area have showed up in waves on completely unrelated RM requests in WikiProject Kosovo to vote !oppose against an Albanian-titled article - keep in mind, you nor these other editors have ever shown interest in improving pages regarding Kosovo, you haven’t edited, added to or created articles in the scope of this project but somehow still manage to show up in a group to conveniently vote !oppose when an RM to an Albanian toponym is being voted on. Stop dodging the question and answer truthfully about what is going on there. If it’s plausible, although I strongly doubt it will be, fair enough - I won’t do what you do and act like I know everything whilst dismissing every ounce of reasoning as some big conspiracy towards me, gaslighting (funny that you brought it up) other people in this thread and utterly disrespecting my fellow editors. Like I said, once my name is cleared, you owe me a big apology for wasting my time on your conspiracy theories and shunning my name and reputation here. Botushali (talk) 04:21, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah sure, it must be a coincidence that you reverted me with an insulting edit-summary, then as soon as ElderZamZam reported you to ANI, you "discovered something upon closer inspection" and reverted Alltan. Yes, must be a total coincidence. Then there's the extremely interesting coincidence that you and Alltan used the same edit summary within seconds of each other The almost 40 years old source is refuted by 21st century sources and archival records present on the talk page. The almost 40 years old source is refuted by 21th century sources and archival records present on the talk page.. Come on, what's going on here? As for your accusations, I can assure you that me and ElderZamZam are not the same person (you can file an SPI if you think so), and that contribs logs are public. Khirurg (talk) 17:27, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I’ve already explained to you that this question can only be answered by Alltan, and as I’ve mentioned previously, he seems to have discussed it in his comment - genuine question, are you senile that you have to keep bringing it up when Alltan has already discussed it AND I’ve already told you that you should be asking him that question? Truly a genuine question and not a personal attack, because you seem to be running circles here with no real argument and just baseless conspiracies. Also, the first part - that ANI report was complete bogus which is why no admin did anything about it, bringing it up is just embarrassing because it didn’t affect me in the slightest. It’s not a coincidence that I make sourced edits and reverts/removals on false information - check my edit contributions. Again, you failed to answer the whole voting in Kosovo RM’s spontaneously in groups thing, must be because you have no response that you can plausibly falsify - we both know something is up there, stop dancing around in circles and answer me now for the fifth time (maybe more), why have you and other editors here (who seem to show up in all articles together with the same exact viewpoints) voted in Kosovo RM’s despite not being interested in the topic, nor having edited or created articles under said topic? Is it only to vote in spite of what you deem to be “Albanian editors” or is it only to vote against the common name simply because it’s in the Albanian language? And better yet, why is it more than just 1 of you consistently showing up for these spontaneous votes? Botushali (talk) 18:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Nah, the only explanation for the fact that you guys used the same summary within seconds of each other is that you shared it offline (Discord? Whatsapp? Signal? Doesn't matter I guess). But youbeat Alltan to the revert, which is why his edit was blank. This is what's called a "smoking gun". Don't be smug that the report hasn't been actioned yet. That's only because it's too long and complex for ANI. But rest assured there are appropriate venues for it, and that's where it will go, and it will be actioned. Hurling insults ("senile") is not going to help you, and in fact is only making things worse for yourself. Same goes for your counteraccusations, especially considering that are years old. You really need some fresh material, but you got nothing, so that's why you are engaging in "diff archeology". Khirurg (talk) 00:15, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  These responses get more and more absurd as time goes on - off-wiki collaboration? Really? Way I've read Alltan's explanation is that they copied my summary, but you seem far too stubborn to accept that not everyone is out to conspire against you. I am not smug about this report not being actioned - I was referring to the report against me specfically - as I do truly hope this report gets actioned so that the admins may tell you off for your behaviours and these foul accusations you keep throwing. If anything, the votes on Kosovo RM's that date from 2020-2021 show consistent collaborative meddling on pages that you have never been involved on and have never had an interest in improving - they are not "years old", and I do not need "fresh material" when you are simply refusing to explain and account for your suspicious actions on said RM's. I also hope the admins read this and see how much you dodge the topic, continuously reverting to things I or others have already explained. Botushali (talk) 00:55, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Why copy an edit summary for a null edit? No, it's because he went to revert with the agreed upon edit summary. But your revert had already gone through a few seconds earlier, so there was nothing to revert, hence the null edit. As for "meddling" and "no interest in imporving", that applies to your edits in the Greek topic area, where it seems all you're interested in doing is "flag planting" and other petty POV-pushing. Khirurg (talk) 03:18, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  How about you actually ask Alltan since they made the edit? They might've just wanted to add the little ending on the end my edit summary, you'd have to ask them. Brave claims to say I push POV and the like in Greek articles, also very hypocritical coming from you. I've worked on multiple articles in the project, unlike you in the project for Kosovo, where you have done nothing. Again you avoided the question, must be guilty of something. Botushali (talk) 03:26, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Report

Page:
Anti-Ottoman revolts of 1565–1572 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Comment:
Editor Çerçok added on 31 August an unreliable source (Pëllumb Xhufi) to the article (back then, it was titled Greek revolt of 1567–1572) but the edit was reverted as other editors with a long standing, 15+ year-long experience in the Greece topic area, who are fully aware that Xhufi is an extremist^{(the admins who cannot wait for the RSN report, may simply assess what for example the Austrian Scientific Academy does sat on Xhufi: [[[213]]: In contrast to the differentiated opinions in Greek history, institutionalized Albanian research on the Epirus question has a defensive (Beqir Meta), but often aggressively nationalistic tone (Pëllumb Xhufi). Close connections between science and politics, which are particularly evident in the person of Xhufi, hardly contribute to an objectification of the discussion. In recent years, Xhufi has specialized in anti-Greek or anti-Orthodox rhetoric. Xhufi also published material-rich, but unfortunately nationally one-sided scientific essays such as Manipulimi i historisë: rasti i Epiriti This is published by the Austrian Scientific Academy at 2015])} politician and objected to him being added as a reliable source in Wikipedia: [214]. Despite reverting as there being no consensus for using Xhufi,[215] Cercok attempted to reinstate the scholar back to the article without consensus [216]. When Xhufi was removed again, editor Alltan intervened to help Cercok in re-adding Xhufi again back to the article [217] despite the other editors at talk page opposing this. Xhufi was removed -again!- and then reinstated -again- [218]. The cycle goes on and after some days of no fruitful results at the talk page in reaching an agreement about Xhufi, I have attempted to remove the disputed author and have the article reflect only on consensus, [219] but another editor, Ahmet Q. from the Albania topic area stepped in to help Cercok and Alltan: [220]. Result? As of today, and in violation of any Wikipedia's rules on WP:ONUS and WP:VER and WP:CONSENSUS, WP:RS, and WP:NPOV, Xhufi is still on the article: [221]. The editors from the Albania topic area disregarded any legitimate concerns the opposite side has expressed in the dispute, ignored what wp:onus states that they should be doing, and brute-forcibly added the dubious scholar to the article where he remains to this day today without wp:consensus.

My own reports also included the following articles: Greek War of Independence, Parga and Peloponnese, all occurring on September month as well, as well as the other articles where similar incidents occured in the past months such as Epirus revolt of 1611 (August) and so on. Since they are now covered by editor Khirurg above who beat me in the race, I am dropping them. However, the purpose of my report remains unchanged nevertheless: which is to highlight my serious concerns that on month September -alone-, Wikipedia witnessed such large scale disruption across multiple articles of the Greece topic area with editors from the Albania topic area coming there and disregarding & ignoring our legitimate concerns, not following the normal dispute resolution procedures and wp:ONUS, and brute-forcing their changes to the articles without consensus. This has heightening my fears that this might be something the Admins may have to look after and is the reason I came here for. Sure, the other editors may be right and I am not experienced in identifying accurately whether this kind of disruption is with certainty a case of tag-teaming, but that's why there are these procedures for. For this reason, I will really appreciate the Admin's attention in evaluating, as a third party, whether this is really the case as suspected. Certain editors here counter-argued that this behavior is not Tag-teaming because it is a usual WP:BALKANS behavior; however We are not exactly experiencing everyday such a surge (if I may describe it as such) of activity by editors that aren't naturally editing this topic area, yet are going to great extend to edit-war their way to the preferred version of articles in spite of consensus and Wikipedia's other core content policy guidelines. If the admin feels that there is no such kind of disruption and that my concerns are inflated, illegitimate, or I am just seeing things where there aren't supposed to be, then I am willing to apologize to the editors for that, and also to the Wikipedia's community for wasting their valuable time. In this case, I will have no other option but refrain from raising similar concerns in the future and/or listen to any suggestions/advice on what to do if I feel there is such a pattern arising again in the future. Also, if the admin deems that my concerns were disruptive to the Wikipedia community and/or I have violated the guidelines, then I am willing to face the consequences. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:25, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I added content from at least four sources, one of which was Dr.Xhufi's book. Most of the content was from Malcolm. Dr.Xhufi has been twice unsuccessfully reported by editors who disagree with the historical facts found in his verbatim representation of primary archival sources. Dr. Xhufi's book is an academic publication that has gone through peer review and has been cited countless times in top journals.

I wish added content could be discussed based on its reliability per wikipedia guidelines, not on personal like/dislike of it. Çerçok (talk) 00:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are two RSNs about Xhufi which didn't conclude that the source is unreliable, as I have explained to SR already in previous discussions. [222][223] Xhufi is a medievalist who is a member of the Academy of Sciences of Albania. Arbërit e Jonit was published by Onufri, a leading academic publishing house which has received many excellence awards and it has been positively reviewed in Studime Historike, Albania's leading historical journal by medievalist Ardian Muhaj. It checks all boxes for RS. We can't just cherry-pick one opinion to disregard someone's work. The quote which SilentResident picked is by an author who has even contributed to the same anthology with Xhufi [224]. The source which constantly and without stop SilentResident has been trying to remove from all articles is a respected living academic and comments such as "racist, "nationalist", "ultranationalist", "extremist", ([225][226] [227][228][229][230]) which have been written about him by SilentResident are a violation of BLP for which SilentResident has been warned to stop by admins and open a RSN (Drmies[231], Cullen328[232]) and they even have redacted her comments [233][234]. Alltan (talk) 01:11, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

SilentResident has provided the necessary scholarship that mentions Xhufi's work as being: "aggressively nationalist". There is no BLP violation on providing this information. However, an RSN needs to filled in order to have a clear image on this but there is too much extremist speech on TV shows etc. and scholarship doesn't hesitate to reject his claims (Arbërit e Jonit has been also considered non-RS even inside Albania).Alexikoua (talk) 01:20, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A longtime Wikipedia user calling a living academic racist, extremist, nationalist, tendentious, ultranationalist etc. (see diffs above) and doing this multiple times over a protracted period of time even after being warned is in fact a severe BLP violation.

Xhufi's work has received excellent reviews in Albania and abroad. It's listed as a main source for a Cambridge University Press source as of 2022[235] SilentResident can't pick a random quote from someone who has even written an article in the same anthology as Xhufi who hasn't been "rejected" anywhere. Falsely claiming that a living academic is promoting "extremist speech on TV shows" is in and of itself a BLP violation. You can't go around and call anything "extremist speech" without evidence or a source which calls such speech extremist. Admins need to know that in the previous RSN there was an attempt to distort a historical comment by Xhufi and make into the opposite of what it said [236]. There is a clear targeting of this author by several users who have to stop using wikipedia as public space to attack living authors Alltan (talk) 01:36, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Being cited in sporadic occasions doesn't make RS his work, in fact this means nothing about the author and his work in general. I have seen several nationalistic works that have been cited for various reasons in serious scholarship. Please don't mix up those two. SilentResident mentioned the conclusion of high quality scholarship about works on the topic Xhufi is specialized (Albanian history and Greek-Albanian relations) and definitely Xhufi's work should be treated with heavy precaution. [[237]] Himara has always been Albanian, Greek government launched a 200-year old Anti Albanian agenda and several other motos of this fashion can't meet RS.Alexikoua (talk) 03:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've opened an RfC on Xhufi at RSN [238]. This thread should be about the alleged tag-teaming, and nothing more. Khirurg (talk) 04:40, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

SilentResident, please consider this a firm warning that you are at immiment risk of a long term block if you keep engaging in WP:BLP policy violations regarding Pëllumb Xhufi. If you do not stop attacking and besmirching this academic without filing a report at WP:RSN as you have been repeatedly been asked to do, then a block will be the inevitable result. The idiom is "put up or shut up". I truly hope that you understand, and will conduct yourself in accordance with policy going forward. Cullen328 (talk) 04:53, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328: I am heeling to your warning. And not just that, but also I am trying to understand the line between WP:UNRELIABLE and WP:BLP to make sure that when describing an unreliable source for the nature of their unreliability (i.e. unreliable due to their extremist views), doesn't result into WP:BLP violations. For decades, I had the impression that sources can be subject to scrutiny and criticism in Wikipedia, provided that it is based on WP:RS. But apparently this isn't the case and this is what I am trying to understand. Understanding a policy's principle, helps a lot not just to avoid repeating the policy's violations in the future but also the approach to questionable sources. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:00, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cullen328, adding to my confusion expressed on my comment just above, regarding the precise line between WP:UNRELIABLE and WP:BLP, another Admin just intervened at the RSN stating that editor Alltan is doing an inaccurate invocation of WP:BLP regarding the criticism against Xhufi. The RfC at RSN also has non-neutral wording, and is advisd to be closed and moved to Dispute Resolution Noticeboard instead,[239] an advise the filler stated that they will follow. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:44, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:SilentResident, it is inaccurate invocation of WP:BLP to say the criticism of Xhufi in academic books is a breach of WP:BLP. But calling him an extremist or things like that is indeed a violation of WP:BLP. In other words, you can quote academcs who criticize Xhufi, but you can't call him an extremist, far right politican (he does not belong to the far-right) etc. Xhufi for some edits can be unreliable, for others can be reliable. It is a bit hard I know, but what can else we do? Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Thank you! --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:32, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328: Not only is Khirurg accusing me of "tag teaming" (last time he accused me of "tag teaming" was in November 2021 and he was warned for that and then blocked) but he is using the inflammatory term "gang up". It is very insulting: I am a Wikipedia volunteer, not a street gang trying to bully people. Even worse, there have been cases where I have supported Khirurg's position againt editors I am supposely "tag teaming" with. For instance, Khirurg accuses me of "ganging up" with Çerçok, but just 6 days ago I supported Khirurg's position in a content dispute with Çerçok [240]. I can cite other such examples where I disagree with editors cited as part of the "tag team". I urge you to intervene to make sure Khirurg never makes such false accusations against me again. Btw, Khirurg noted that Ahmet Q asked editors to exchange emails; well Khirurg too has asked several editors to exchange emails. Even writing those requests for email exchange in Greek though here editors are supposed to write only in English. I frankly do not see any issue with asking someone to exchange emails, Idk if there is a policy against it. Ktrimi991 (talk) 08:02, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since you deem it inflammatory, I've struck the term (it's unnecessary anyway). Now, can you try and address the topic of the report at hand? Btw, is this you calling a veteran editor an "edit-warrior" in an edit-summary [241]? Not only is this a clear WP:NPA violation, but also a violation of WP:SUMMARYNO, which explicitly states Avoid incivility. Snide comments, personal remarks about editors, and other aggressive edit summaries are explicit edit-summary "don'ts" of the Wikipedia Civility policy. Attacking editors in edit-summaries is especially bad because they cannot be edited. As a sign of good faith, would you be willing to ask the edit-summary be redacted by WP:OVERSIGHT? Thanks. Khirurg (talk) 14:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warrior is someone who is edit warring. If I keep edit warring, I am an edit warrior. The editor breached the 3RR three times within a month. I reported him and he got warned by an admin. Then he kept reverting and placed a warning template that is used for disruptive IPs and newbies on my tp just because I reverted him twice. In the edit summary he claimed that I was not participating on the tp, but the history of the tp shows that is not true. Will you ask him to get his edit summary deleted? Anyways, some admins who use the term "edit warrior" in edit summaries for example [242] [243][244]. Even the WP:EW page uses the term "edit warrior". Do not expect any more responses by me here. I waited for the evidence of "tag teaming" but you just posted some random reverts of "Albanian accounts". Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:24, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ktrimi991, indeed there is no trace of you in the talkpage [[245]] although you kept reverting. By the way the result of your report was "user(s) warned" since your disruptive editing was noticed by uninvolved editors there. As such you owe a sincere apology for this pattern. Indeed you are reverting without talkpage participation in a wide variety of articles considered that you support editors that agree on your national agenda (another recent example of reverting sourced information [[246]] and no trace in tp [[247]], same situation in Pecë [[248]][[249]] and nothing in tp [[250]] apart from my comments).Alexikoua (talk) 19:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Salviogiuliano, the admin who warned Alexikoua (for breaching 3RR thrice in a month) [251] made it absolutely clear you were the only user edit warring and the only one warned. [252]Yes, I only warned him, but the template automatically closes the report as "warned user(s)". As I said during the discussion, Alex was edit warring and Alex was warned. Ktrimi991 explained this to you already in a discussion [253]. So why are you, being aware that this is not true, still asserting this? Alltan (talk) 20:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The full report is found here [[254]] and no wonder an uninvolved editor noticed immediately Ktrimi's disruptive pattern. After the first comment by Coldtrack Ktrimi desperately responded to wp:ADMINSHOP tactics: [[255]] and [[256]].Alexikoua (talk) 02:42, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Moderated Discussion

A thread was opened at RSN concerning whether Pellumb Xhufi should be considered a reliable source. An RFC was briefly started, but it was then stopped by User:Rosguill, who advised that the issue be taken to DRN for moderated discussion to focus the discussion better. I have created a subpage for the discussion, which will take place at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Pellumb Xhufi. If there is agreement that this is a dispute about the reliability of a source, which is a content dispute, then this thread can be closed. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:35, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have a question: will anyone actually read this monster of a thread? Minkai (talk-contribs-ANI Hall of Fame) 18:17, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:JulieMinkai - What monster of a thread? This thread in WP:ANI? This thread in WP:ANI is a specimen of a species of monsters, ANI threads that become monsters. That isn't required. The editors are being asked to comment at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Pellumb Xhufi, and I have started by asking them to state what the source reliability issue is. When I conduct mediation on an article content issue, I start over, rather than rehashing tens of page of article talk page discussion, and I am starting this reliability discussion over rather than rehashing the WP:ANI discussion. I am not asking that they read the monster thread. You do have a point, which is that I am not getting responses to my invitation to discussion. If the editors who are quarreling about the reliability of Pellumb Xhufi just go away at this point, then the problem will have gone away. If the quarreling then breaks out somewhere else, an admin can tell them that they missed their chance at moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:19, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Couple of questions: What happens if one side of the dispute does not show up at the DRN, as appears as of this writing to be the case? The main issue of this thread is not Pellumb Xhufi, but the evidence I have presented that a group of users appears to be tag-teaming in edit-wars across Balkan articles. IT could be that ANI is not the right venue for this due to complexity, so what I would like to know is what would be a good venue for something like that? Thanks. Khirurg (talk) 02:30, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Khirurg - The two admins whom I know have looked at this dispute are User:Rosguill, who asked to take the dispute to DRN, and User:Cullen328. Maybe one of them can provide guidance. In the meantime, I am waiting for any other editors to reply, and for the editors who have replied, including yourself, to answer my question. What can be done if only the critics of Xhufi show up is to better formulate the question of whether he is an unreliable source. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:05, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am responding here because I have been pinged. I have no opinion one way or another about whether or not sources by Pellumb Xhufi should be considered reliable. I will point out that there is no requirement that reliable sources must be neutral and unbiased. We deal with the bias of sources by summarizing and citing the full range of reliable sources. So, if Pellumb Xhufi is part of reasonable academic discussion and debate on these matters, then his perspective should be included and summarized. If, on the other hand, the vast majority of other academic sources denounce and repudiate his academic work as spurious, then he should be treated as a fringe source. I am speaking in hypothetical terms because I lack the topic specific expertise and language skills to do that analysis myself. Cullen328 (talk) 05:29, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Khirurg's question about tag-teaming in edit-wars across Balkan articles, that would be a case for WP:ANI or WP:AE since at that point we're talking about conduct, not content. In the absence of a clear consensus on Xhufi's usability, however, you would need some very strong evidence of clear-cut edit warring, canvassing, or other inappropriate forms of collusion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:07, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Robert McClenon, I will respond to your question at the DRN within 24 hours. The issue of tag-teaming is largely separate from the issue of Xhufi though - it predates it and is much larger in scope. I've presented evidence of this behavior across twenty articles (and could find more if needed) in the "Evidence" section above. The problem with AE for this is that the 20 diff and 500 word limit. That's why I have brought it here at ANI. Khirurg (talk) 04:55, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The tag-teaming continues, evidence added here: [257]. Khirurg (talk) 04:10, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Khirurg and others - I am stating at the DRN subpage that there are a content issue, the reliability of the source, and a conduct issue. The discussion that I am trying to moderate is only about the content issue. However, I hope that discussion of the content issue will make it possible, if not to resolve the conduct issue, at least to defer its discussion so that the content issue can be resolved. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:47, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If the conduct issue persists or resumes after both this monster of a thread and discussion of the source reliability issue, ArbCom may have to be asked to conduct a fact-finding review of the conduct issue, which doesn't appear to be getting resolved by the community. So let's try facilitated discussion of the content issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:47, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The conduct issue is persisting as we speak [258] [259], literally. It has nothing do with the source reliability issue, it's much larger and widespread. Khirurg (talk) 23:57, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Editor Locke Cole is edit warring against consensus on multiple templates Template:Bit and byte prefixes Template:Quantities of bits Template:Quantities of bytes (including a possible 3RR violation [260] [261] [262]), disrupting talk pages (here’s one example [263]) and carrying out personal attacks [264] [265]. Some editors are trying to hold a discussion at Template_talk:Quantities_of_bits, but the discussion is continually disrupted by Locke Cole's edits. Can someone take a look? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 22:53, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Dondervogel 2: You have failed to notify Locke Cole of this ANI filing, as the red notice on top of this page and when editing clearly require. I have done so for you this time. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 00:15, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@TheDragonFire300 He did notify Locke here, but was reverted here. ~~~~ ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 00:21, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to apologise, in that case. I was going to check shortly after I made the comment and notice, but forgot to. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 01:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Without commenting on the possible edit warring and general discussions I find it odd that the discussion for Template:Quantities of bytes is being held at Template_talk:Quantities_of_bits#New_proposal:_Legacy as part of a proposal that appears to have gained consensus and been implemented in November 2021. The only reason that I was able to figure out to go there was the fact that there was a November 2021 message on the Quantities of bytes template Talk with a link. The same goes for Template_talk:Quantities_of_bytes (where the previous talk items date to 2015). This discussion appears to have been going on for multiple years in different forms both on individual pages and collectively. I also note that the templates link to Kilobyte and other pages where the nomenclature should align with what is in the templates otherwise it is going to get even messier and the discussion will migrate there or the Template discussion will be used to support viewpoints elsewhere.

With all of this I suggest that a formal proposal be started at the Wikipedia:Village pump with messages left on the template talk pages alerting people and whilst the discussion is being undertaken the templates should be left in a stable form. Apart from anything else:

1. That will gain a wider viewership and input than on a single page.
2. Changes based on consensus at the Village Pump are easier to support and require an equivalent level of consensus to change to something else.

Gusfriend (talk) 00:53, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, this should have been held at WT:MOSNUM, as one of the templates under discussion (Template:Bit and byte prefixes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)) is transcluded at WP:COMPUNITS (part of WP:MOSNUM; thus making it a MOS change, not simply a template change). As to the November 2021 "consensus", the TL;dr version is, Dondervogel 2 drags out discussions, waits a month or longer to reply, apparently in an attempt to force their POV. It worked this time because I and other editors who would oppose it did not notice the "new" discussion (you can see I was heavily involved in other discussions in that main section; the proposal they made nearly two months after the last meaningful discussion in that sub-thread was quickly closed in only six days when they got what they wanted (with no attempt to ping or reach out to other editors they knew were heavily invested in the discussion)).

It is my intention to collect evidence of this disruptive behavior by Dondervogel 2 (back to when they edited as Thunderbird2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) which goes back literally over a decade, present it here, and suggest a WP:BOOMERANG wherein Dondervogel is restricted from editing pages in any namespace that have any relation with units of measure that involve computers or technology. If you want just one taste of how they treat this topic as a WP:BATTLEGROUND, look at the full edit history of User:Thunderbird2/The case against deprecation of IEC prefixes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) which they have religiously updated for fourteen years. —Locke Cole • t • c 01:12, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment)If I'm reading correctly, a header at WT:MOSNUM indicates that this is under ArbCom discretionary sanctions, so any editors involved in a dispute about this topic should beware and tread lightly, yes? Elizium23 (talk) 06:27, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notice the failure of Locke Cole to assume good faith in his post of 25 September, justifying the comments by Quondum and Zac67. Further examples can be found by following the link provided by Quondum. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 23:03, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to Locke Cole's editing against consensus, disrupting the discussion chronology and edit warring, I'd like to direct attention to his severe lack of WP:AGF, frequent allegations of lying and generally rude tone at least bordering on harassment. A productive discussion is impossible. I'd seriously appreciate an admin calling him to order officially. --Zac67 (talk) 06:48, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please also note the recent, open edit warring on NTFS.[266][267][268][269] Locke Cole's edits were reverted for the sole reason of introducing ambiguity and not following WP:MOSNUM. --Zac67 (talk) 18:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This ANI thread is about disruptive behaviour by Locke Cole, and as I see it, any comments relating to the merits of the debate and forum (for example by Gusfriend above) will only distract from the purpose here. I confirm Zac67's observation above: there is a long history on this topic, including (section 'Should it be there at all?') accusations of lying, failure to assume good faith on the part of other editors, and generally being unpleasant to interact with. Included are accusations such as the one above against Dondervogel 2. This unpleasantness by Locke Cole and the failure of the community to censure him caused me (about a year ago) to decide to leave WP. I will no doubt leave again, but for now, I'll see whether the WP community can restore a little my faith in managing this disruptive behaviour. What is needed to deal with this? —Quondum 15:20, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you knew anything, anything at all, about technology it would be amazing. Instead you're going against our sources AND WP:COMPUNITS by reverting changes to bring our articles into reality. Truly amazing to see you all feel like victims when you're the belligerents here. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:36, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Too much drama. This is a long-running dispute between essentially two warring parties. Claims of “editing against consensus” should be looked upon with critical scrutiny as they can often be a tactical move that is the Wikipedia equivalent of leaving Novichok on a doorknob to remove inconvenient obstacles. On this long-running war (over whether Wikipedia should adopt terminology like “gibibits” instead of "gigabits”) “consensuses” tend to actually comprise just one complainant and a fatigued friend extracted from the woodwork who barely cares. Were someone to induce just one or two more people to somehow care and join these discussions, purported consensuses simply swing the other way.

This dispute truly had a consensus many years ago with very many editors weighing in and a consensus discerned and declared with an admin supervising. At that time, Dondervogel 2 (then known as Thunderbird, if I recall correctly) didn’t accept that consensus and doesn't agree today with the current policy that sprang from that consensus. Nothing has since changed other than drama persists. Greg L (talk) 01:54, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Quondum said above that there is a long history on this topic and Greg L says that it is a long-running war. As I mentioned above, the way to solve the underlying root cause, the best way of getting more involvement in the discussion and stop having this pop up again in a few months and a few months after that is a formal RfC at the WP:Village Pump which then becomes a formal consensus at WP:MOSNUM. Once it is there it applies everywhere in the project, people can be referred to the MOS in correcting their edits and sanctions can be applied to those who continue to act against consensus. Gusfriend (talk) 08:41, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Gusfriend: I wish to add canvassing to the list of Locke Cole's disruptive activities. He has summoned Greg_L at least twice [270] [271], knowing that Greg_L would support his position. Except when summoned by canvassing, Greg_L was not involved in the discussion on any of the templates since [2008], when he supported the disruptive activities of the socks Fnagaton and Glider87. With this in mind, you might wish to ask Greg_L how he became aware of this ANI thread. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 23:42, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Dondervogel 2: He has summoned Greg_L at least twice 2021-06-21T19:06:37 2022-09-28T21:50:37, knowing that Greg_L would support his position. (original edited to add dates to diff links) As to the first linked diff, that comment was posted over a month after Greg L had already participated in the same discussion: 2021-05-07T23:27:25. As to the second diff, I provided Dondervogel 2 with an explanatory diff (2021-06-23T01:45:08, where Greg L had participated in a discussion at Quantities of bytes regarding header titles), and instead of dropping the stick and stepping away, they doubled down by casting aspersions (see Special:Diff/1113072411). As Greg L was involved in the discussion at the Quantities of bytes template, you made his involvement important when you used a separate talk page as justification for making changes he had previously opposed: Special:Diff/1056250211. With this in mind, you might wish to ask Greg_L how he became aware of this ANI thread. Sort of like how Quondum just showed up randomly here I presume.

Now that we've settled Dondervogel 2's latest attempts take issue with my behavior, can we please address their behavior in so far as WP:FORUMSHOP, WP:CANVASS (for the Quondum canvassing) and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT goes? I'm still preparing my WP:BOOMERANG proposal, but clearly if they're going to escalate to casting aspersions about me, this needs to be stopped now.

@Dondervogel 2: I see you can spend time here making more aspersions against me that are unfounded, can you spare a moment to reply to my question on your talk page? —Locke Cole • t • c 00:05, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose it’s time for a reality check and history lesson since this tendentious behavior by Dondervogel 2 isn’t going away and occurred so long ago, almost no one currently on Wikipedia remembers.

First off, I’m a senior mechanical engineer at a major electronic manufacturer, where I help establish engineering standards for the company. Although I’m close to retirement, I’m not yet retired and have better things to do with my life that spend time here dealing with tendentiousness that makes Wikipedia’s articles look foolish.

Secondly, no one “summons” me. I seldom visit Wikipedia anymore to edit and happened to notice an “1” badge on my alert bell because my name had been mentioned on that template page.

An objective look at the most recent 100 of Dodgervogel 2’s edits shows him to be a near-single-purpose account user with an apparent obsession over how Wikipedia should be using terminology like “kibibytes” and “mebibits.”

The consensus hammered out years ago, which resulted in the current MOSNUM policy was one that Dondervogel 2 (then known as “Thunderbird2” or something like that) vehemently disagreed with. Sometime after the consensus went against his position, Thunderbird 2 dropped off the radar… I don’t remember when and the circumstances, just that there was no disruption for a while.

Now, newly reincarnated as Dondervogel 2, he spends an unusual amount of time on Template:Quantities_of_bits, which links to an uncanny amount articles, and where Dondervogel 2 seems to always have a presence.

Wikipedia doesn’t need those tables featuring the “gibibit” terms if the price is continual disruption. Those units are largely ignored by the mainstream computer world and the computer press; Dell doesn’t use them in their literature or packaging. Same for Apple. ‘PC World’ and ‘MacWorld’ don’t use them… unless perhaps it is an article of a proposed standard that never took off. Spell checkers from Apple—a tech company—don’t even have those terms in the dictionary… when I try to type “gibibits,” my spell checker tries to auto-correct it to giblets.

If Dondervogel 2’s contribution was to just produce a nice table and let the community use it as the MOSNUM-memorialized consensus intended, that would be fine. But instead his tendentiousness expresses itself as doing his best to put that table in articles where the units aren’t used… as if “keeping the units front and center amounts to keeping the dream alive” that the computer world will one-day follow Wikipedia’s lead.

Finally, as for me somehow being in Locke Cole’s hip pocket, there’s zero truth to that. Locke and I were on opposite ends of a different disagreement (linking dates) around the same timeframe and it was a bitter ending for Locke when the consensus went against his wishes. Though Locke didn’t like it, he accepted the consensus and didn’t edit against it… or at least didn't edit against it much as I recall. Greg L (talk) 06:01, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dondervogel 2 casting aspersions

It is unacceptable for an editor to routinely accuse others of misbehavior without reasonable cause. Legitimate concerns of fellow editors' conduct should be raised either directly with the editor in question, in a civil fashion, or if necessary on an appropriate noticeboard or dispute-resolution page. Although broad leeway is granted to allow editors to express themselves in their interactions with one another, particularly in dispute resolution, a consistent pattern of making objectively unsupported or exaggerated claims of misconduct can necessitate sanctions or restrictions even if the editor subjectively believes that they are true.

Passed 10 to 0 at 04:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)^[1]

Evidence and Discussion

During discussion at Template talk:Quantities of bits I had advised Dondervogel 2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) that they need to inform other editors who had expressed concern over the topic under discussion of the new discussion at this new talk page. They seemed to largely ignore that, ultimately pinging Quondum instead. Noticing that Greg L (who had previously participated in discussions at Template talk:Quantities of bytes) had been conspicuously absent from the other ping's, I finally did what Dondervogel 2 appeared incapable of doing: ping of Greg L. To which Dondervogel 2 replied (with an edit summary of why?) What is the reason for wanting to involve Greg L? I answered with a diff of Greg's previous participation, asking I wonder perhaps if you could explain why you'd exclude him? And instead of recognizing their error, they elected to cast aspersions about why he was pinged: You seem to imply you invited him to the discussion because you are confident he will support your position. Is that a good criterion for involving a new editor? I replied Where did I imply this? I expect an answer to this Dondervogel 2.

No reading of what I wrote could possibly be taken as inviting him because he would support my position, nor the logical fallacy that follows. After receiving no answer but witnessing Dondervogel 2 continuing to edit elsewhere, I took the behavioral issue directly to their talk page: With this edit you commented in a reply to me the following: You seem to imply you invited him to the discussion because you are confident he will support your position. I had replied, asking Where did I imply this?. Can you explain your comment as I've already asked? To which they replied, adding conditions to any answer (clearly now meeting WP:ASPERSIONS as they are unable to substantiate their false claims about me): I will consider responding to your questions once they are expressed as questions (or requests, but not demands) and when you learn to assume good faith. Further replies on their talk page yielded no answer, just further demands to meet conditions even after explaining that such conditions are inappropriate (especially in dispute resolution).

Request

My goal from the beginning of that line of discussion was to ensure that any concerned parties on other talk pages were informed of the discussion now taking place at this alternate venue. Dondervogel 2 appears to be both WP:FORUMSHOPping and engaging in WP:CANVASSing by being selective in who they ping and when. As they refuse to answer my WP:ASPERSIONS concerns (I suspect because they can't, but they also refused to withdraw them as well), I am asking for an administrator to either directly ask them to answer for their claims against me, or block them indefinitely until such time as they do. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:25, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Disruption at NTFS

In case it helps, here's another example of edit warring by Locke Cole, this time at NTFS: One revert on at 05:50 on 4 Oct and then three reverts on 5 Oct, at 15:57, 16:02, and 16:36. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:52, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In case it helps, the sun rose this morning, and after a week Dondervogel 2 still hasn't answered the demand on his talk page to explain why he's casting aspersions about me. They apparently also believe that their comments are more important than anyone else's and tried to place this sub-thread above mine from nearly a week ago. Oh, and Quondum, who has never edited NTFS (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), made an appearance randomly apparently to carry on their disruptive abuse of consensus by changing an article to units not used in any of the sources. So in addition to a WP:COMPUNITS violation, we're now seeing a WP:V violation. Anyone wanna do something about the editors ruining Wikipedia and making it a laughingstock of the internet with this -ibibyte/ibibit dreck? —Locke Cole • t • c 15:28, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• There seems to be a lot bickering between you and Locke, Dondervogel 2. I don’t have time to wade through all the drama edit by edit. So… I have a fair question that might save everyone some time. Have you been editing in full compliance with the letter and spirit of WP:COMPUNITS? Greg L (talk) 03:23, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @Greg L: It is no secret I used to edit as Thunderbird2. I stopped editing because of bullying by Fnagaton and his band of socks. You were heavily involved at that time and you never once suggested to Fnagaton he could improve Wikipedia by stopping his disruptive behaviour, so why should I consider you a neutral third party? And why should I consider your question a fair one when it is addressed only at me and not at the editor causing the disruption? Nevertheless, I shall assume good faith and respond accordingly.

  • This particular sub-thread is about NTFS. I have not edited at NTFS recently (I’m not sure I ever have, but it was not on my watch list before Locke Cole brought up the subject at WP:MOSNUM. I can safely say that all recent edits I have made there comply with any guideline you choose to mention, because I have made no recent edits there.
  • The broader thread was precipitated by Locke Cole’s interventions at Template_talk:Quantities_of_bits#JEDEC_column. You only have to read a few lines to see Locke Cole’s multiple unfounded accusations. The content issues there are about what name to use for the 'JEDEC' column. I don't see the relevance of COMPUNITS to that heading, so yes, I assert my edits there also comply.
  • If your question is not about one of those two articles/templates, you’ll have to be more specific. I can safely say I always try to comply with the spirit of all aspects of MOSNUM. Do my edits also follow the letter? Probably not all of them, but I don’t believe any editor who has made more than (say) 1000 edits to Wikipedia has done so without ever falling foul of one aspect or another, and COMPUNITS in particular is full of internal contradictions (remove all unambiguous prefixes but keep the article unambiguous is a tall order and you are probably the only editor who consistently used to achieved that – I can’t speak for editors today, except that I know Locke Cole makes no attempt to disambiguate, which is why his edits were reverted several times at NTFS, by different editors).
  • You said in a previous post you are a senior engineer nearing retirement and don’t have time for this nonsense. Well, I am a senior physicist nearing retirement and I don’t have time for this nonsense either, so why don’t you demonstrate your good faith and help me stop the nonsense by addressing Locke Cole’s disruption instead of calling my behaviour into question without evidence?

  Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:28, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As one of the parties involved in NTFS, I'd like to report that the edit conflict has been resolved. Locke Cole has seen reason and properly fixed the inconsistencies and included proper disambiguation notes. Thank you for this!

What hasn't really been addressed here though is the bullying, generally rude tone, severe lack of WP:AGF, frequent allegations, frequent disruptive editing and edit warring made by Locke Cole. I'd just like to quote a few phrases from this very page and the ones linked above: If you knew anything, anything at all, about technology it would be amazing., Please refrain from lying then, apparently this lying thing is catching, Or you just gonna keep repeating that lie. Do these represent the desired tone for WP? Are they totally OK to use around here? Personally, I'd like to continue looking for a solution to the initial issue, but if the atmosphere remains this toxic, there's no way to get anywhere. Please, could someone take a look at the mess and try to mediate? I think it's still time that a call to order may prevent further damage. If this is allowed to continue without moderation it's not going to end well. --Zac67 (talk) 14:51, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Time out. I see the confusion here, and some editors are too quick to throw around inflammatory wikirhetoric like “edit warring” without thinking through whether they themselves might not understand Wikipedia’s policies.

All this wiki-drama is product of only four castaways on Lord of the Bytes island, and they’re warring over an issue that was long settled. It’s a three-to-one issue with Locke Cole, who appears to be the only editor active who is attempting to ensure Wikipedia’s articles don’t look foolish by using terminology unused by the mainstream computer world in advertising, packaging, brochures, or user manuals, and the mainstream computer press never use.

Those who are editing in violation of WP:COMPUNITS may not be aware of the prodigious effort into the RFC that lead to WP:COMPUNITS—and the large number of participants in that RFC.

My evidence that there may be confusion over what MOSNUM calls for:

• Here is an edit diff by Zac67 in which he wrote this as an edit comment: if you create ambiguity don't expect others to fix your mess.

• Here is an edit diff by Quondum in which he wrote this as an edit comment: prefix use was very inconsistent; throughout, binary prefixes are clearly intended, so making these unambiguous.

It’s notable that both those editors are endeavoring to address “ambiguity” (which is in reference to how terms like “megabyte” aren’t equal if one is talking about RAM or storage), yet this ambiguity is precisely what the RFC—as memorialized in WP:MOSNUM, addressed. That clear and well-thought through consensus was that

1. Wikipedia should disambiguate using the same techniques the rest of the computer world uses, and…
2. Not use terms and symbols like “kibibit” and “kib” as pretty much no one in our readership recognizes them.

Now here is the edit history of Template:Quantities of bits. There we find a lot of familiar names: Dondervogel 2, Zac67, Quondum, and Locke Cole.

This issue, which boils down to a belief (or faith-based view) that if Wikipedia began using terminology like “kibibits” in an “Oh, didn’t you know?” fashion, that might one-day lead to the rest of the world adopting them. This has been going on since 2008.

In the last 14+ years, is there any evidence that anyone in the computer world slapped their forehead upon seeing these units mentioned on Wikipedia and saw to it that the packaging on boxes of computers at Costco read “Now with 16 gibibytes of RAM”?

What has changed since 2008? (Other than editorial conflict, flame wars, and wiki-drama are still occurring and there's zero reason for it.)

Clearly, significant passion surrounds this issue. Dondervogel 2, then as Thunderbird 2, made a special page, titled The case against deprecation of IEC prefixes.

So I ask everyone who has found themselves at odds with Locke Cole to respond to this question: WP:COMPUNITS reads as follows… please read this:

Now, I have three questions for all the editors active on this thread (Dondervogel 2, Zac67, Quondum, and Locke Cole), which are as follows:

1. Did you know that MOSNUM reads this way?
2. Did you read all of the above excerpt from WP:MOSNUM?
3. If not, are you willing to abide by this policy?

As I’m active on this thread, I’ll answer my own questions: I haven’t been editing on this topic for years, but when I was, I abided by the spirit and letter of WP:MOSNUM and WP:COMPUNITS. And I am quite familiar with WP:MOSNUM; I helped write portions of it. Greg L (talk) 20:14, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very aware it reads this way. I'm grateful you fully expanded the embedded footnote that explains the reasoning, as it seems to be ignored or overlooked by the other participants here. We have a site-wide consensus against using IEC prefixes in articles. If there is a matter of ambiguity, WP:COMPUNITS prescribes methods of resolving that. It is unacceptable for editors here to edit war over implementing in our articles what has been an accepted for 14 years (and with no changes to really justify an adjustment in all that time). My goal has always been to follow our sources and the long-standing consensus at COMPUNITS. My first foray into this issue was when Dondervogel 2 was making edits like this: 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. Each of these edits goes against the long-standing consensus. —Locke Cole • t • c 00:58, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikaviani is not taking 'No Personal Attacks' seriously. He makes harassing and uncivil comments during the discussions, specially when it comes to challenging issues, which makes consensus building nearly impossible. Here he makes attacks by saying "Stop wasting our time with your WP:FORUM-like posts to push your pro-Mullahs POV". In response, I politely asked him to avoid casting aspersions against me. At the time he made more attacks, like this.

Now, when he is told by another user to avoid making personal attacks he made here, instead of avoiding personal attack, he responds: "calling a cat a cat is not a "personal attack". --Mhhossein ^talk 11:12, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've taken a look at the conversation. I think there's a case for WP:BOOMERANG here.

First and foremost, you're quoting him out of context. He said, "Stop wasting our time with your WP:FORUM-like posts to push your pro-Mullahs POV without providing any reliable source." Emphasis mine. Please don't misrepresent words by selectively quoting them.

It's not a personal attack; it's an observation about behavior. He feels that the content you've proposed is biased towards the Iranian government, that your posts treat the talk page like a WP:FORUM, and that the sources you've provided aren't reliable.

You also linked to a diff that showed a comment Wikiaviani made and called it an attack. It's not. He's saying that you have a battleground mentality; that you're edit warring; and that you're distorting Wikipedia's guidelines.

You, yourself, previously accused him of having a battleground mentality and edit warring. You're claiming that such statements now count as a personal attack. When you said those things, did they also count as personal attacks?

Here's some feedback for you: if you suspect someone is some sort of sockpuppet, raise it in WP:SPI. Don't try to discredit other participants in a discussion by airing such a suspicion in the middle of a content dispute. Quandarie 12:27, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BOOMERANG. This is not a personal attack, and Wikaviani is in fact not the first person to make this observation; I did it as well back in 2019, in a WP:AN thread where other users made similar concerns [272]. If you assemble all the cases, there is a good amount of evidence to back this. For example, back in April 2020, Mhhossein was partially blocked for "tendentious commentary and original research" [273] which he made in this thread regarding Khomeini (taking a pro IRI stance) [274], the founder of the IRI. A pro IRI stance was also taken here (2019 June) (September 2021). Heck, take a look at even his most recent case regarding the death of a poor woman by IRI Guidance Patrol for showing some hair. Do I need say more? (September 2022). They have also been warned "against a battleground mentality and further incivility" in relation to articles about Iranian politics. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:43, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing the comments down below, I should have perhaps clarified better. This pro-IRI behaviour all violated at least one of our guidelines in each of these threads. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:24, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Quandarie: I really don't think [275] and [276] are appropriate ways of communicating with others in such a calm discussion. --Mhhossein ^talk 09:09, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, while edit warring, misrepresenting what reliable sources say by cherry picking only the parts you like, using unreliable IRI sources repeatedly while you have been told not to do so are appropriate ways to edit this encyclopedia ? By the way, two editors are still waiting for your explanations at Talk:Mahsa Amini protests, it would be an appropriate way to communicate to answer them, don't you think so ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 09:27, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhossein, thanks for the diffs. Mhhossein is right; it is an unacceptable personal attack. Quandarie 16:16, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Quandarie: ; Don't get me wrong,

• Given Mhhossein's profile as an editor, I disagree, when an editor systematically misrepresents what sources say to push a pro IRI POV during unrest in Iran, it's not surprising to see him do it again now.
• Again, calling a cat a cat is not a personal attack towards said cat.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 06:53, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Personal attacks again: I thought the insight by two third parties (Vice Regent, Quandarie) would make it clear enough to you that your comments had been personal attacks and that you should not comment on the editors. Among other things, you are making ad hominem comments which WP:WIAPA says are "never acceptable". --Mhhossein ^talk 03:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Vice Regent did not respond to my answer as to why it was not an attack, neither did Quandarie. Oddly, you keep cherry picking comments that favour you, omitting what HistoryofIran and Quandarie said about you deserving a topic ban ...---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:27, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• That they did not respond is irrelevant to the fact that you did perform Personal Attack against me. You need to avoid commenting on the editors. Also, Quandarie's comment on topic ban was probably when he had not noticed your attacks. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:12, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The fact that they are not responding may mean that they are running out of arguments (and Quandarie doesn't know your editing profile as well as I do...). I'm not going to waste my time arguing with an editor like you, who has an agenda, even the user who closed the topic ban proposal was in favour of the topic ban. Keep pushing your POV with unreliable sources or misrepresenting what reliable sources say and we will meet here again and this time, maybe the community will finally realise how disruptive you are and make the right decisions. Also, instead of repeatedly posting messages here accusing me of "personal attacks", maybe you could answer to the editors who are waiting for your explanations about the blatant cherry picking and misrepresentation of a reliable source at Talk:Mahsa Amini protests. Done here with you for now.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 10:15, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Please remember that Wikipedia is not a battleground. --Mhhossein ^talk 07:59, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Said the guy who has been blocked 30 days for Tendentious behavior and original research from Khomeini's page, topic banned from MEK, recognized as a POV pusher, warned against a battleground mentality and further incivility, and so on ...---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:45, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Can an admin handle the continuous harassments by Wikaviani please? --Mhhossein ^talk 05:57, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  There's nothing to do here. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:07, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment : I could hardly do a better job of gathering evidences than what has been done above by two other editors (also see here). I think Mhhossein is quite a knowledgeable editor on Islam related topics, as evidenced by the articles he has brought to the good or featured level, but when it comes to topics related to the Islamic Republic of Iran, he is almost systematically biased.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:18, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Topic ban proposal: Mhhossein

User:Lmharding have been engaging in long-term disruptive editing on multiple pages related to LGBT rights claiming the countries impose vigilante attacks and executions as a legal penalty without providing sources or using WP:SYNTH sources where the content outright contradicts or have nothing to do with the claims being made. The user has also engaged in long-term edit warring by continuously reverting the removal of content by multiple users.

The user has claimed to @LocalWonk: that the behaviour would cease and no complaint to WP:ANI is necessary but as the user continues to repeat the behavior, I believe a complaint to WP:ANI is necessary.

The user continues to revert and add the same content that had been removed by both me and @AukusRuckus: multiple times The user has provided no sources for the claims or have used WP:SYNTH sources for example in here a source suspect who was arrested and tortured during interrogation on his alleged ties to the militant separatist organization the LTTE has been used to justify the claim despite having no relevance to the claim of vigilante attacks or any action against LGBT people specifically as the source mentions the person involved only identified as LGBT well after the incident. The user has not yet provided an actual source that supports the claims the LGBT rights in Tunisia as well despite continuously reverting to re-add the content and instead the user simply removed some of the sources but the source present still used makes no reference to the claims of vigilante attacks being a legal penalty. Thank you. -UtoD 07:00, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have just awoken to this notification, and it caught me a bit by surprise. I was still in a process of compiling a wide index of edits by @Lmharding to show a pattern of behavior despite warnings. I am requesting a few hours to finish compiling said index and present it and thoughts in a more coherent manner than I am currently. Apologies for not replying chronologically, not sure what the correct procedure here is when another user doesn't tab out their response. LocalWonk (talk) 10:19, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I immediately reverted as I reverted in the heat of the moment only realizing what I dsid right after and it was undone. As for Tunisia, there are plenty of incidents of vigilante action but it was sourced as [287] does mention executions torture and other punishments. However, I will revert it. Small setback as a small slip-up. My apologies. Lmharding (talk) 10:33, 29 September 2022 (UTC)~[reply]

Reply: Hoping that for now this apology is enough for us to move on and not continue bringing up the past as I putting a strong effort to acting better. As for those edits, I admitted my mistake and I undid them. Let's not make a bigger situation out it than we need to. Any past mistakes have been resolved with aukus the editor in question and other then this small slip-up I am doing edits in other categories of articles primarily and the articles have been brought back to any consensus edits. @LocalWonk: there is no need to bring up old edits as we resolved any edits your "compiling" with him being satisfied that I am cooperating so there is no reason to dwell in the past. Lmharding (talk) 10:33, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I motion to close this, as this editor LocalWonk is now bringing up old and already settling or in the process of settling discussions doing WP:FORUMSHOPPING in a WP:HOUNDING campaign without any context into the fact that they are already being discussed and are being done so civilly without any future edit warring or other guideline regulations other than the two edits I mentioned above which I realized were wrong and immediately self reverted. Please don't punish me for trying to do better WP:NOPUNISH. My WP:FRESHSTART does not mean I'll be flawless or perfect and I have apologized for it. I encourage WP:FAF and to WP:AGF as I am sincerely trying.Lmharding (talk) 10:41, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Lmharding, thanks for your response.

I find it a bit disparaging to refer to me as a 'random editor' — aren't we all? Also, we haven't heard from @AukusRuckus as to if this is their position on the matter, so please let them speak for themselves. Some of these issues persist on the latest revision of the pages, and the issue at hand isn't limited to interactions you've had with User:AukusRuckus. LocalWonk (talk) 12:22, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pattern of Behavior

The rest of this message is addressed to everyone:

I share @UtoD's concerns. I’ve noticed that User:Lmharding has taken interest in editing various articles related to LGBT rights in various countries and administrative subdivisions. Overall, they seem to edit the articles to portray the situation as harshly and pessimistically as possible, even when that means flattening real nuance about the current reality, and compromising an article's factuality. I’ve organized some questionable edits by article:

• LGBT rights in Zambia (Removing information, flattening nuance, not providing new sources to support the change)
• LGBT rights in Sudan (Removing information, no change in sources)
• LGBT rights in Saudi Arabia (The use of the phrase “with certain death for those who participate” seems to stand in opposition to WP:CRYSTALBALL. We can write about legal penalties and nuance surrounding that, but cannot make such definitive statements about the hypothetical fate of people engaging in certain actions.)
• LGBT rights in Mauritania (Flattening of nuance without providing sources to support the edit)
• LGBT rights in Senegal (Changing information without providing a source to support said change)
• LGBT rights in Syria (Use of language that lacks precision and not fit for an encyclopedia (see WP:WORDS), with contribution “Vigilante executions, beatings torture, and vigilante attacks happen all the time in Syria, including by Hayat Tahrir al-Sham a rebel group.” — this goes without mentioning that the claim has no solid citation to back it — that would be impossible, as the phrase ‘all the time’ makes inferences about the future.)
• LGBT rights in Sierra Leone (Nuance completely flattened in this edit, namely that the has no recent history of being enforced, and provided no sources to support the edits. Another source, not previously cited on the page confirms the prior state of affairs described in the article.)
• LGBT rights in Eswantini (More nuance was flattened (including the non-illegal status of lesbian acts), and a sentence was contributed that goes against WP:CRYSTALBALL; “The only way to repeal the country's sodomy law is to go through the courts”)
• LGBT rights in Uganda (Edit warring against two other editors who raised valid concerns)
• LGBT rights in Morocco (Changed information, without citing a new source, that contradicts the original source which was left unchanged.)
• LGBT rights in Malawi (After being informed by another editor that they were flattening nuance and removing information that was factually true, they engaged in edit-war behavior, undoing the other editors reversion of your work, without addressing their concerns in any meaningful way. See edits relating to a disputed moratorium on 23 August 2022.) LocalWonk (talk) 12:22, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Previous warnings

Lmharding has continued to put catch-all phrases referring to extrajudicial punishments in the penalty section of the infobox, which they have already received pushback on. This problem dates back as far as June of 2022. The mass of edits to comb through is so wide, so I apologize if I've missed anything.

In closing, though their desire to contribute to articles on this topic is appreciated, their edits are not improving these articles (if not violating Wikipedia rules), and they are not addressing concerns raised by other editors. There is also something to be said about their unwillingness to abide by basic Wikipedia etiquette, like tabbing their responses, even in the face of being told by another editor that they have a visual disability which renders tabbing extra important. To quote WP:CIR, "A mess created in a sincere effort to help is still a mess. For that reason, it can become necessary for the community to intervene when an editor has shown, through a pattern of behavior, the likelihood that they are not capable of contributing in a constructive manner." I would like for a topic ban relating to LGBT issues to be considered for User:Lmharding to protect the integrity of these articles and to give editors the space needed to begin to repair them. LocalWonk (talk) 12:22, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As for mOst of this edits, they were shortened to clarify, be less wordy or list up to top punishments to get to the point nd to copy the style of other articles which took the same approach. It was not to "flatten" or erase any important information. Other details like id a punishment was "unenforced" was removed if there was no source to verify it Finally, for Malawi it was an editing battle that both sides both me and other editors edit warred and reverted rapidly so all parties involved are equally guilty of violatios there but I apologize for my addition to that situation. Overall, mpst if these are either misunderstandings or old behavior I'm growing out of. 12:59, 29 September 2022 (UTC) Lmharding (talk) 12:59, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Lmharding:, I can't accept your contention that you removed statements like "unenforced" because they were unsourced. For example, at LGBT rights in Eswatini, you removed sourced statements here which I restored, with a better source. I thought perhaps the first removal of "unenforced' was due to lower-quality sourcing, but that can't be right, as you used the Beast cite to add "the only way to repeal the country's sodomy law is to go through the courts."

I posted on the talk page about this and received the reply from you:

It was reverted. I did that to try to shorten information down to not overkill in details but in this particular situation, I take my edits back. Disregard your version is more correct.

That was in June. By 3 September, you made nearly the same edit again. Following that, "unenforced" in the table and "female same-sex behaviour not criminalised" were restored, only for you to, yet again, on 29 September remove these points, saying in ES: "(removed original research and unfounded conclusions)". There's also the entirely unsourced "Penalty: 2 years" now added by you. Numerous sources state no penalty is prescribed, and no prosecutions have taken place under the criminalising law.

Normally this could all be hashed out in the talk page as a simple content dispute. But the type of editing detailed here is very widely distributed across the whole topic area, and contributions to talk page discussions only occur up to a point. They may degenerate in to long, drawn-out, somehow impossible-to-reach-common-ground back and forth, or you, LMH, simply abandon them, as here and as here Talk:LGBT rights in Texas#Still waiting: "nullified" claim. There are many other examples, but this reply is already too long. I can supply more if wanted.

I don't know if posting on this board is the right approach or not, but I do not think things can just go on in the same vein: the whole topic area is really poorly served. Your approach to editing and lack of consensus-building efforts do not help. I, for one, feel like I spend all my WP time putting out spot fires, rather than contributing substantive improvements, as I had hoped to. AukusRuckus (talk) 03:58, 30 September 2022 (UTC) Added dates AukusRuckus (talk) 02:40, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot speak for that edit as I would have to research more into my reasoning as it was a while ago and I made 50+ edits since then. I doubt you compartmentalize all your edits. I do not have time right now, but as for the the longer disputes I did go back to the UAE discussion so don't pretend that I didn't. I discussed those edits a few days ago here^[1] As for the Texas discussion, I am still in the process of researching hence why I did not respond. There are a lot of nuances to Texan laws, and sadly there is a lot of information to sort to find correct information as you would know being WP:CAUTIOUS. Plus, I don't answer to you and I have a life outside of Wikipedia and you have been demanding of my time more ridiciously that any other user I have ever contribute and sometimes I don't want to WP:IGNORE you and you group of WP:TAGTEAM trying to WP:GRIEF me. I cant just have a day of peace because you continue to tag and pester me. But those are again, either old discussions I have responded to or or have been in the process of looking into t. You have reverted and 3RR'd me as well many times breaking your own rules^[2][3] with harassing and time consuming spamming on multiple pages^[4][5] often with your own personal attacks towards me as well, pestering and annoying me trying to prod me. Hypocrisy at its finest. Lmharding (talk) 05:22, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This kind of response makes it hard to believe that you've changed your ways. What do you mean by "you and you group of WP:TAGTEAM trying to WP:GRIEF me"? Lmharding, trying to collaborate with you has been very frustrating. Is there anything short of administrative action that could convince you to change your approach to content and conduct disputes? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 05:39, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Patience and understanding, I am trying to change but again the process is not straightforward, I am not WP:PERFECT and I again want to shed my past but with disputes like this you don't let me. It feels very much like a group tagteam in my perception, hence why he had followed my edits and watched me. I am free to have that opinion. That view has no bearing on the situation so let's get back on focus.Lmharding (talk) 05:49, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Either way, I have tried really hard to understand your point of view; I have been subjected to a fair quantity of what I would call less-than-polite responses from you. This is our very first interaction: [288] In addition to being a little unfriendly, it displays a mistaken understanding of WP:RS and WP:BURDEN. This approach is one that continues to be shown in your editing to this day. AukusRuckus (talk) 06:59, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Lmharding: To help me understand, would you be able to address your thinking in regard to the Eswatini edits that I detailed above, please? This may seem like a small matter, but as a representative edit of your wider patterns that I have found puzzling, it would be helpful to get your thoughts on it. I realise you have made many edits since, but those two I mention in particular were only done on the 3rd and 29th of September. If you click on the diffs I provided, which show the edits, that may help you recall. I'm especially at a loss to understand why they were made when you said you agreed with my restorations in June, but then apparently thought better of it, but without engaging in more discussion. The 2-year penalty addition is just plain mystifying.

(And, if you won't take it amiss from me, I'd like to suggest the consistent use of edit summaries; they act as record of your thinking as well as being helpful to other editors).AukusRuckus (talk) 02:40, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@AukusRuckus: None of the sources mention lesbianism being legal and but according to [ILGA 2020]^[6] there was a law pending that made homosexuality punishable by a minimum of 2 years, but does not mention a top penalty hence penalty of 2 years in jail.Lmharding (talk) 00:48, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Lmharding: I have made some comments about your recent article edits on Talk:LGBT rights in Eswatini; thank you for letting me know the reasoning. What I would like to discuss here in this venue, are the reasons you did not think it warranted talk page discussion before you made your edits—especially since you had earlier said on the talk page that you concurred with my view of the sources. AukusRuckus (talk) 12:27, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Editing content after posting

Addendum: Would like the record to reflect that Lmharding is editing the content of their replies after publishing them, here's an example where they referred to me as a "random editor" (not something I imagined, as I initially thought I did when I first refreshed the page). I am also not bothering to address the (newly) introduced accusations of me participating in WP:FORUMSHOPPING or WP:HOUNDING — a cursory reading of either policy reveals them to be irrelevant to the situation and my conduct, and a deflection from the issue at hand. LocalWonk (talk) 12:45, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I refer to you as a random user because we have barely talked before. That's not meant as an insult just a realistic observation. Now the hounding and forumshoping comes from the two of you seeming like you gang up on me by collecting up resources together against me^[7] might I add communicating outside of Wikipedia to do this which is also against the rules. You also bring the issue to other forums almost like it seems like your shopping to find admins that side with you^[8] You are breaking rules here. 13:21, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Well hey, I was wondering when I would see this here. So I would like to comment as the person who gave USPOL DS alerts to both AukusRuckus and Lmharding, and engaged a bit with both of them regarding this dispute, specifically on the Texas LGBT Rights article, a couple of months ago. I posted on the talk there after reading through the dispute with both of them, encouraging them to drop the stick and seek a 3O. I later noted that there did appear to be some disruption from Lmharding, and encouraged Aukus to see if there were other editors wiling to go to ANI with them, as the disruption and disputes were taking place across a wide variety of LBGT Rights articles. Given that, almost two and a half months later, despite assurances that an ANI would not be needed, we are now here, there may need to be some concrete action taken here. FrederalBacon (talk) 04:14, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To your point FrederalBacon you said oth of us were typing paragraphs, and hat there was edit warring and 3RR on both sides, either both are guilty or neither. You don't get to pick and choose who should get action against them when AukusRuckus was doing the same thing. It wasn't just "my disruptions" so don't try to edit history. Lmharding (talk) 05:28, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the some of the edits of Lmharding I agree that concrete action may be required if only due to their behaviour on article talk pages where they often change what they have previously written without indicating changes. In particular Lmharding should :

• Not remove article talk page discussions as was done at [289] even if it has been "reviewed and handled".
• Use strikethrough and insert (i.e. <s> and </s> and <ins> and </ins>) rather than editing their previous entries as they did at [290], [291] and elsewhere including multiple times in this conversation.
• Not remove something of your own after it has been there for 4 days as you did at [292] as whilst people may not have replied it may have affected how someone edits or is planning to edit the main page.
• If they have concerns about what someone else has written on a talk page then they should raise your concerns to allow for retraction rather than removing it for themselves as at [293]
• Take some time to read up on talk page formatting as correct use of indents is important.

Gusfriend (talk) 22:50, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Commitments to change

Another running issue is that the user continuously claims that the user has changed behavior and will not repeat the actions when faced with the possibility of being reported but if you look at the edit history the user has made no attempts at making any changes and would simply continue with disruptive editing as usual. This comes off as taking advantage of other users' willingness to make a collaborative effort. Even now the user alternates between promises to change and throwing accusations of other users organizing off wiki against the user without providing any evidence for the accusations. -UtoD 18:27, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's a lie I have been working on it, you don't know me personally? Can you read my mind? an you now my intentions in my head? No. The proof of talking offline has been sourced and mentions collection offline through email which is against Wikipedia rules as well as collaborating through the discussions I sourced to talk to only people they agree with and going to other forum to shop for moderators. Stop trying to deflect guilt of others who do wrong against me. I have been changing, other than the slip ups I reverted immediately I have been primarily not even editing LGBT articles temporarily and I have been successfully editing other topics. I take that as a personal attack, please purge your last acccusatory allegations. Lmharding (talk) 23:14, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed. Poland LGBT righ§ts state in the gender identity section that transition requires approval which only occurs twice a year and is often rejected. For Belarus,other than homosexuality being legal and gender changes being permitted almost no rights are offered in that country. The sources are all there. Nice try with your knitpick but there was no problem with it. Your knitpicking searching for miniscle reasons, albeit false and incorrect ones are enough proof for WP:HOUNDING for me.—Lmharding (talk) 14:01, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lmharding: Who are you addressing here? AukusRuckus (talk) 14:34, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It was a reply to UtoD.Lmharding (talk) 15:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Throwing accusations of WP:HOUNDING in an administrative noticeboard is meaningless because it's mandatory for users to find the necessary diffs. You have not provided any evidence of wiki hounding. Edit warring in the LGBT rights in Texas and being dismissive when warned and the continuous dismissive behavior such as " Nice try with your knitpick but there was no problem with it. Your knitpicking searching for miniscle reasons, albeit false and incorrect ones are enough proof for WP:HOUNDING for me" again keep contradicting your claims of having changed. Total dismissiveness, confrontations which implies WP:NOTHERE -UtoD 03:44, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about NOTHERE, but Lmharding does consistently demonstrate poor collaboration. The clear 3RR breach at LGBT rights in Texas happened over a individualized edit-warring warning and a request to self-revert. They called an obviously good-faith editors efforts "unconstructive". I get that this is a long filing, but it's disheartening to see a lack of input from uninvolved admins and editors. AukusRuckus' #Working rough summary below has a good encapsulation of the issues, to which I'd add these recent troubles at the Texas article. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:00, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Editing comments of others

Do you you think redacting the comments of other users in in a noticeboard without any administrative authority to do so will not be noticed? Trying to remove complaints, throwing out random accusations without any evidence and claims like "Stop trying to deflect guilt of others who do wrong against me " don't really show you as putting any effort to changing or any intention of collaborating. -UtoD 23:54, 30 September 2022 (UTC).[reply]

I restored your comment, and I agree this is additional troubling behavior from Lmharding. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:56, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

An administrator warned Lmharding "Don't remove other editor's comments just because you don't like them" earlier this month. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:00, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That was an attack on character based on assumptions of my mind and process of thinking. Under NPA that was justifiable to be removed. Don't you dare accuse me of being a liar I have changed, tbut that was a personal snipe obviously against Wiki guidelines. Lmharding (talk) 01:05, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The only use of lie and liar that I can see, seems to be in your posts, Lmharding. It's understandable that you may resent someone saying they disbelieve your stated intentions; few of us would enjoy that. Still, UtoD is only stating how they view your behaviour going by your history. We are all entitled to make the case as we see it, using reasoned statements and evidence. How do you think editors here feel when they read unfounded accusations from you regarding quite serious WP policy violations? (I know you believe you have evidence of that and provided it, but an entirely appropriate discreet user talk post is in no way improper. Similarly unfounded are the HOUNDING and FORUMSHOPPING jabs.) Nobody redacted your posts. You make a plea for "patience and understanding": Would you please display some towards your fellow editors here?

The best and easiest way to overcome others' scepticism about your intentions is to engage in civil dialogue about their concerns, be open to what they're saying, and expressly state how you'll change your editing. It is not by being defensive, accusatory, and using their slipups against them, nor by insisting everyone believe you just because you say so. I genuinely hate to see anyone upset by comments made, but can't in all honesty read what you removed as a personal attack. You will find others more likely to be sympathetic to your attempts to change, if you show them you are doing so. AukusRuckus (talk) 02:40, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Working rough summary

This discussion rapidly became long and unwieldy − something I contributed heavily to. So, I hope it's ok; I've decided to make a summary list here, extracting everyone's main points from the above. If others think it's worthwhile and wish to, perhaps diffs or (very brief) comments could go under each category. (Feel free to improve these rough points, change, or add to them): AukusRuckus (talk) 12:27, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Major points

Part of following discussion, a reply to Lmharding by AukusRuckus, moved to User talk:AukusRuckus

 – Added little to already overlong section

• adds catch-all phrases referring to extrajudicial punishments in the penalty section of the infobox and summary tables in large number of LGBT rights articles
  • uses inadequate sourcing, SYNTH and OR for these additions, or even lacks cites entirely
• continuously reverts multiple users who remove questioned content
  • when reverting others, often does not give any indication of reasoning for reversion, even in edit summaries:
    • Diffs: Brazil nut: ·edit by LMH ·LMH's edit reverted; edit summary supplied ·LMH reverts reversion, without edit summary AukusRuckus (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• alters own comments on article talk pages without indication of having done so [Altered for clarity AukusRuckus (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)][reply]
• alters and deletes others' posts
• makes apologies and suggests intention to change, without noticeable follow-through, minimising extent of issues

Then, if warranted, proposals for specific action could be made. AukusRuckus (talk) 12:27, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I take offense to you calling my edits "catch call". If there is any source I find that can back it, whether or not you nitpick these sources and incorrectly call them "inadequate" according to Wiki standards, many of them are suitable. It does not matter if they mention these punishments in passing. Wiki standards are followed not your micromanagement or made up additional rules. If they are deemed as not enough according to community consensus, I can and have been looking for additional supporting sources to add. Many of your reverts were done too with you 3RR ing as well and not explaining your reverts ma good amount of the time either. When you have remembered to, I take them to the talk page and discuss them. Your false narrative is incorrect I have been doing what I needed to. I have been using the edit summaries but yes go ahead and pretend I haven't if you look many of them have explanations. No edits of others have been edited, 1 was removed as a personal attack according to removal of personal attack policies. Go ahead and look at those, I did nothing wrong there. I have no requirement to explain or not remove things on my own talk page according to WP:DRC and WP:BLANKING. Again, not sure if you read the top comments but I'll repeat for the last time I did and thern made 2 other edits which I immediately reverted to keep with my agreement which I have kept. No action is needed, stop wasting the moderator's time there have been no new edits since those self-reverts and the issue is taken caee of. Any new dispute s on content I'm dealing with in talk pages first.Lmharding (talk) 13:37, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry to cause anyone offence, @Lmharding: I'm trying to summarise everyone's discussion and I took "catch-all" directly from an earlier post (see 1st par in #Previous warnings section). AukusRuckus (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Have added an example, with diffs, above. AukusRuckus (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cross that out, it was in the process of being repaired for some reason the edit summary was not showing up in the talk page due to a glitch. Lmharding (talk) 14:51, 7 October 2022 (UTC) Again, you search through my edits for small things, stop WP:HOUNDING. Lmharding (talk) 15:03, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence for WP:WIKIHOUNDING and you have clearly continued with the same pattern of adding uncited opinions in LGBT pages for Belarus and Poland. This is a clear contradiction of your claims of no longer editing LGBT articles and changing your editing behavior. -UtoD 06:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References and notes

Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs)

Various reverts on Kherson Oblast (Russia), Zaporozhye Oblast (Russia) and aggressive talk against other users on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kherson Oblast (Russia) and edit summaries. Couldn't tell how much times his reverts and aggressive talk happened. Definitely wp:nothere. Beshogur (talk) 13:57, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Correction wp:battleground. Beshogur (talk) 15:25, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(dublicate from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Deletion of main title and infobox of article) In the discussion of these articles, this user behaves extremely aggressively, and threatens with permanent bans to those who oppose his position. Please restrict this user from discussions and editing articles for a while. (I admit that my behavior was not ideal either) PLATEL (talk) 14:04, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No. The two articles are full of fake information, unsourced text and border on or are outright WP:HOAXes. No such oblasts exist. Let me be perfectly clear: I don't mean that these oblasts of Russia are "illegal" or that they're "illegitimate" or anything of the sort. I mean, simply, they do not exist. They were not created. They were not established. Their existence was invented wholesale by a Wikipedia editor a few days ago. Even if you think that Russia's cause is 100% just and that Putin is the messiah, it's still the case that these. Oblasts. Don't. Exist.

Maybe they will in the future and then we can argue about their legality or legitimacy. But when the article was created and as of this writing, they do not exist. The flag was invented (flag from 19th century). The governor was invented (the head of the occupation administration was falsely designated as "governor"). All the other details of these non-existent oblasts were invented.

Yes, Russia claims to have annexed these regions. We have an article for that: Annexation of Southern and Eastern Ukraine. But annexation is not the same thing as an oblast existing. This is like if someone created an article on Puerto Rico (US state). Even if you think that Puerto Rico should be a state or that it's territory is 100% US, doesn't make it into a US state. Same thing here.

I've removed unsourced info from the article. Since it's about a non-existent entity, that means that yes, most of the text was removed. The fact that not much is left is not my problem - it's kind of hard to write an article about something which doesn't exist, so sources don't exist either. Unsourced text can and should be removed, especially when it constitutes false information.

Frankly, everyone who is trying to restore this unsourced fake info should be deeply ashamed of themselves and should ask themselves why exactly they're fighting to restore fake info. What exactly is the motivation for this kind of behavior?

If we're going to go with WP:NOTHERE I'm gonna hazard the suggestion that it's actually the editor who created an article on a fake entity and all the accounts (many of them throw away IPs or just-created-throw-away accounts) who are trying to preserve this WP:HOAX that are not here to build an encyclopedia. Volunteer Marek 14:06, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If Puerto Rico and the US authorities had signed a document on the entry of Puerto Rico into the United States, then this article would have been written by me and other Wikipedians.

The authorities of the Kherson Region established by Russia signed together with the President of Russia a document on the entry of the Kherson Region into Russia. Now the regions are in the process of de jure registration. This does not mean that the Kherson Region has disappeared.PLATEL (talk) 14:10, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Puerto Rico IS part of US!!! Jfc. Volunteer Marek 14:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But it is not a state. I may not have formulated my statement correctly, but I meant exactly about becoming a state of Puerto Rico. PLATEL (talk) 14:12, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There wasn't a SINGLE source in either article about either of these territories "becoming an oblast of Russia" or anything remotely similar. That's because no such sources exist since the existence of these oblasts was invented by you. Volunteer Marek 14:13, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kherson Oblast is a part of Russia?[294]

At the moment, the decree has been signed by President on camera and is in the process of ratification. Yesterday it was ratified by the Constitutional Court, and today by the State Duma.

I added one source and put the template "in creation". The source was a Reuters article. Other sources were added by other Wikipedians, for which I am grateful to them. PLATEL (talk) 14:22, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, there is no such thing as a Russian "Kherson Oblast". There are NO sources, even pro-Russian ones, which say there is. Yes, Russia claimed to annex the Ukrainian Kherson oblast but it has NOT established (yet) a Russian Kherson Oblast. You made it up. And "at the moment" doesn't address the fact that you created this FOUR DAYS ago. There were and there are no sources which support any of this (because it's simply not true), Reuters or otherwise. Volunteer Marek 14:41, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

please don't attribute to me what I didn't do. I did not come up with the annexation of regions. I, acting according to logic, wrote about the fact that the REGION JOINED TO RUSSIA BECOMES THE REGION OF RUSSIA. you are trying to say that the REGION JOINED TO RUSSIA DISAPPEARS, as if it is being devoured by a black hole. PLATEL (talk) 14:25, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh my god. This is the second time you're trying to pull this innocent act. No. You did not write about a "region joined to russia becoming the region of russia". Here is the initial state of the article you created [295] where you falsely claim that Kherson was an oblast of Russia. Volunteer Marek 15:00, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, this really does need extra eyes because the whole situation is completely ridiculous. Volunteer Marek 14:09, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You can also see the discussion here for some related issues. User:PhotogenicScientist summed it up pretty nicely here. Basically, some pro-Putin accounts on Wikipedia jumped the gun and made up Russian "oblasts" before these were actually established (indeed, before the ink was dry on the annexation treaty). Essentially more Russian-nationalist than Putin himself. You expect this kind of nonsense on Reddit or Twitter but here on Wikipedia it's just an embarrassment which is why I removed it (again, text I removed was unsourced or off topic irrelevancies). Volunteer Marek 14:27, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was a member of the Russian Socialist Movement and went to anti-Putin rallies. You attack me, calling me "a greater nationalist than Putin." You should be banned for such boorish behavior. PLATEL (talk) 14:31, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You created a fake article about a fake oblast before Putin could even establish one. Volunteer Marek 14:43, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Putin did not establish the Republic of Crimea, but "adopted it as part of Russia"

Putin will never establish the Kherson Region, because he has already "adopted it as part of Russia" PLATEL (talk) 14:44, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Beshogur, if you're gonna accuse a veteran editor of being [d]efinitely wp:nothere, you better have WP:DIFFs to support such an extreme claim. Otherwise, it is a violation of WP:ASPERSION, which may be sanctionable. Thanks. El_C 14:30, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @El C: Where should I begin. At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kherson Oblast (Russia), accusing users of using multiple accounts, using CAPS, bold, words like "lol", "bullshit", "ffs", calling everything "fake/hoax", and falsely removing stuff claiming it is unsourced, like on Kherson Oblast (Russia). Also, apparently putting a de facto tag are "attempts at legitimizing Russian aggression". I have edited on various unrecognized entities, never seen such thing placing a de facto control being an attempt to legitimize something. Beshogur (talk) 14:45, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Going to echo EL C here - you need to provide links to specific WP:DIFFS to substantiate your assertions.

  While your link on "de facto" was a good example of this, that doesn't seem like evidence of incivility or a personal attack; rather, an editor stating a differing opinion. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 15:01, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Don't think accusing others of attempts "at legitimizing Russian aggression" is an opinion. That's simply accusation. Beshogur (talk) 15:04, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yeah? And what about "falsely removing stuff claiming it is unsourced"? That is an accusation. And a false one. I'm gonna ask you to back this one up or strike it. Volunteer Marek 15:12, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Are you seriously going to pretend that this user [296] (there are a couple more from them) wasn't abusing multiple accounts?

And please, show me, what did I "falsely remove claiming it is unsourced"? This is 100% false.

And yes, the article is indeed fake and a hoax. That's why it was almost entirely unsourced (aside from some off topic sections). Volunteer Marek 14:53, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Beshogur, that is not evidence of Clearly not being here to build an encyclopedia, which is what the WP:NOTHERE shortcut links to. El_C 15:00, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: Treating editing as a battleground is tho? Did you check his comments on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kherson Oblast (Russia)? Beshogur (talk) 15:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, I have not, but WP:BATTLEGROUND is not the same as WP:NOTHERE. El_C 15:15, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: Ok my apologies. Can I correct? Beshogur (talk) 15:19, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Correct what? You've shown diffs displaying some incivility that's not great, but not sanctionable, either. I'd advise Volunteer Marek to dial it back, and also maybe not respond to every single comment here, but he doesn't really listen to me. El_C 15:31, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I did. Once. Then you made me sad. But thanks for protecting the page. Volunteer Marek 15:40, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sadness is a two-way street. But you're welcome. El_C 15:46, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Essentially this is pro-Russian bullshit. I imagine at some point there will be some Russian formal incorporation of Putin's fever dreams, but its not there yet. And may never be given the rate the Russian's are running away and/or surrendering. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:36, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that this isn't JUST "pro-Russian bullshit" (it is), it's 100% FAKE bullshit. It's made up. There are ZERO sources to support the existence of these invented entities. It's not just WP:POV, it's WP:HOAX. But several accounts are edit warring to keep it because they're more pro-Putin than Putin himself.

The article really needs to be reverted back to the version with all unsourced text (including in the infobox) removed and locked. Volunteer Marek 14:39, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

please remain neutral in this discussion. I do not consider myself a Putinist, but I created that article not for the sake of intoxication of my own propaganda fantasies, but because of the signing of an agreement on the accession of the Kherson region to Russia between the authorities established by Russia and controlling most of the region, and Russia, which automatically makes the Kherson region a part of Russia. PLATEL (talk) 14:40, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment) What ever happened to reliable independent secondary sources? Wikipedia doesn't report on every piece of paper signed by countries across the world just because you see it on tv. We need those sources. VM says they don't exist. I have to agree. Provide the independent reliable sources or it doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Because we know the physical papers exist means it is still OR. The political back and forth does need to stop though. It's not very collaborative. --ARoseWolf 14:50, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't even about politics at this point. It's, as you say "reliable independent secondary sources". Or even ANY sources. I removed UNSOURCED text which presented false info. Even if you think Russia is the most awesome thing ever, the info here is still fake and unsourced. Volunteer Marek 14:57, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Article 2 of the document "Treaty between the Russian Federation and the Kherson region on the admission of the Kherson Oblast to the Russian Federation and the formation of a new subject within the Russian Federation dated 30 September 2022 (temporarily applied from 30 September 2022)" states:

"From the day the Kherson Oblast was admitted to the Russian Federation, a new subject is formed as part of the Russian Federation - the Kherson Oblast."

Article 1 reads:

"Kherson Oblast is considered to be accepted into the Russian Federation from the date of signing this treaty." PLATEL (talk) 15:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

source for all regions for kherson media 1 media 2 media 3 PLATEL (talk) 14:58, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is the first time that some actual (primary, but still) sources have been presented that this is anything more than a figment of your imagination. And this is back dated - it came out today but you created this article four days ago. Volunteer Marek 15:09, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I created this article after signing treaties officially created before September 30th and signed on September 30th. These treaties say that Kherson becomes a Oblast of Russia after the signing of these treaties.PLATEL (talk) 15:15, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh really? And since the text of these treatises was just released today (like literally minutes ago), how did you manage to create that article based on the text of these treaties four days ago? Volunteer Marek 15:33, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am neutral, being neither Russian nor Ukrainian and have no dog in this fight. You on the other hand are Russian and trying to insert content based on a premise which almost the entire rest of the world (apart from Belarussian lapdogs) sees as laughable. RE ARoseWolf above: Fundamentally its difficult to steal/annex a region and announce its geographic borders when you dont even know what the borders are. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:54, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

>neutral

>lapdogs

ok.

Article 4 of the document "Treaty between the Russian Federation and the Kherson region on the admission of the Kherson Oblast to the Russian Federation and the formation of a new subject within the Russian Federation dated 30 September 2022 (temporarily applied from 30 September 2022)" states:

1. The boundaries of the territory of the Kherson region are determined by the boundaries of the territory of the Kherson region that existed on the day of its formation and the day the Kherson region was admitted to the Russian Federation and a new subject was formed as part of the Russian Federation. PLATEL (talk) 15:06, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes but all of that is moot. We have policies requiring the inclusion of inline citations referencing reliable independent secondary sources. Without this information can not be included. I'm not interested in the Russian vs Ukrainian/World POV on this. If it's found in reliable sources then it belongs, if not then it doesn't. Clear and precise. Motives don't matter and there is no reason to be uncivil when policy is on your side. --ARoseWolf 15:10, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@PLATEL, notice how I said secondary. The Russian government documents you link to are primary and unreliable therefore they can not be used. That has been consensus for all government documents for as long as I have can remember reading about. They can be used for certain biographical details or matter-of-fact statements but the annexation of these regions are not matter-of-fact in any way shape or form. You will have to find other sources. --ARoseWolf 15:14, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ok [297] [298] [299] [300] [301] PLATEL (talk) 15:20, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please keep the discussion whether it's real or not somewhere else please. Beshogur (talk) 15:21, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No. That is the crux of the matter. You restored unsourced, fake (as in "not real") text to an article, which makes it essentially a WP:HOAX. This is the kind of stuff people get indef'd for, per WP:NOTHERE. Volunteer Marek 15:29, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ok PLATEL (talk) 15:22, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

primary court source secondary source PLATEL (talk) 15:22, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The "court source" does not support your claim. The "secondary source" was not in the article... because it's brand new (and unreliable). Volunteer Marek 15:32, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, apparently the joys of editing articles with Volunteer Marek aren't only my own. I spent a good two and a half weeks discussing with this person on the article on Simferopol.

• The discussion. After a (now blocked) user had consistently tried to alter the lead, and I and other users tried to maintain the consensus version, Marek introduced some changes to the article, removing all references to "de facto" Russian control, and almost all to the word "annexation", even renaming the subsection on the subject, complaining that it was PoV pushing and whatnot. After that I tried to introduce a new version, and opened a talk page discussion to try and resolve the issue, pinging all of the users involved (the blocked user, Marek, and user:Mellk. I was immediately accused of pushing "Russian nationalist disinformation" and of violating NPOV, while he at the same time denied that there was a territorial dispute. Marek also justified his removal of the term annexation because "Russia annexed it in its own imagination", and accused those who disagreed with him of trying to obscure the fact that Crimea is internationally recognised as part of Ukraine (which is false as it is present in the lead in all versions). At the same time, on the main article, after edit warring with another user for 2 days he accused him of trying to ""conquer" cities for Russia on Wikipedia". I also provided sources to support my assertion that the territory was considered disputed (including Wikipedia's own list of disputed territories), and that using the term "annexed" was in accordance to NPOV. At this point, in spite of the fact that he had removed the word annexed from his edits, Marek insisted that he didn't actually have a problem with it, but with the use of the terms "administer" (which is false, since my version, which he reverted, referred to Russia's control), and particularly "de jure" and "de facto", which he called "a pure Wikipedia invention and unsourced". My reply was all but ignored and he dismissed the sources as being too few, but when I posted more, he just ignored them. After a while he opened a new section of the talk page, were he once again tried to dishonestly frame the discussion by claiming that Mellk and I were insisting that "Crimea is part of Russia", which at no point was true, and then posted a list of four, as he called them, "random cities", to show that all of them had the name of their country in the first sentence. This was his "evidence" that we were apparently claiming Crimea for Russia. Of course, none of the four cities were in conflict zones, or in the middle of territorial disputes (it's quite ironic given that the entire talk page discussion virtually opened with me giving the example of Nagorno-Karabakh to try and provide a frame for discussion but he rejected it per WP:OTHERSTUFF). I replied by showing him the examples of three cities in similar situations to Simferopol, namely Stepanakert, Sukhumi and Tskhinvali, all capitals of disputed territories, to show him the rationale behind my edits of the article. After that he more or less stopped intervening in the talk page until today. He went for a brief edit war with Mellk while taunting him in the edit summaries, slapped a tag on the article as "presenting Russian nationalist disinformation" and at one point reverted two edits, including a completely harmless addition to the "Notable people" section. Now he's back to reverting. As an aside, there was a single account who came out in defense of Marek's position (an editor who hadn't edited the article in 15 years!), first to point out that Marek's position was not a personal PoV but "quite popular outside Wikipedia", and a second time to suggest that edits by user:Seryo93 be disregarded on account of him being biased due to being Russian. It should be pointed out that Seryo93 presented his own version (i.e. he didn't support mine, and I didn't base mine on his) and based his edits on a book published by academic publisher Routledge. When he was reverted the source was replaced by "Voice of Russia". Oh the irony.

This is the version Marek considers to be "blatant Russian propaganda". If an admin considers it is, by all means, indef me.

• Personal attacks deserve comment. There was no shortage of them. In a previous edit I suggested he was immature and stonewalling, to which he retorted (present in a diff mentioned above) by accusing me of being a "WP:SPA sleeper account that only activated itself in April after this war started" and of not having enough edits to intervene in controversial topics. He implied that Mellk and I were working together in blatantly pushing a (ultra nationalist, irredentist, Putinist) POV. Previously he had implied that I was probably a sockpuppet. On another exchange he accused my position of being "100% bullshit" (which, unironically, is the nicest thing he said about me or my sources throughout the entire discussion) and me personally of being "a WP:SPA WP:NOTHERE". Since he insisted in accusing me of being a SPA, I repeatedly pressed him to have him tell me what my "single purpose" was, to which he finally replied that it was pushing "PoV, OR, nationalist, irredentist. Unsourced". This despite posting some 15 different sources, all Western, including the NATO website, a speech by Boris Johnson, the Brookings Institution and others. On my part I'm also very much guilty. On top of the aforementioned accusation of immaturity, he claims to have found this edit summary offensive. I also called him obtuse and petulant, and told him that I had less respect for him than for the intellect of a slug. I believe that my final "personal attack" was to call his behaviour dishonest, undignified and adversarial. I have no problem accepting my share of the blame, and I am willing to accept any punishment deemed necessary. As I told another user who tried to calm me down, I know using such language is not necessary, but I can't deny I found lashing out kind of satisfying after dealing with a stonewalling, gatekeeping user who repeatedly accused me of being NOTHERE, implies I'm a sockpuppet and claims I'm a SPA activated after the war to push Russian propaganda. Just for clarity's sake, I started editing this year (I usually made a handful of edits every year) with the CEE Spring event, I hardly, if ever, edit stuff on current affairs, and in my only mention of the current war in Ukraine (on my article on the brewery Ochakovo) I referred to it as the Russian invasion of Ukraine, no minced words, no euphemisms... Some propagandist! I guess I'm not getting my extra ration of vodka for the winter, comrades.

The fact that this all I reported here happened between a month and a week ago will probably make it sound like me being vindictive and coming to lash out on Marek after someone else opened a thread. Subconsciously, it might well be the case, for dealing with this person was by far the most unpleasant experience I have had on Wikipedia. But today he once again called me a "sleeper SPA account", and he's not planning on stopping, so I wanted to point out just how difficult it can be to deal with a person who is impervious to sources (even today he claims no sources talk about Crimea being de facto controlled by Russia) and who takes himself too seriously to admit he might be wrong. I think user:El_C is perfectly correct in not taking claims without evidence as proof that someone is WP:NOTHERE, but having a guy with tens of thousands of edits on Wikipedia spend over a month accusing me of being alternatively a sock, a sleeper Russian propagandist, and WP:NOTHERE (or all of them together - are we in WP:ASPERSIONS territory yet?) is beyond annoying and tiresome. At this point it's off-putting. Ostalgia (talk) 21:26, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just checked the edits on Simferopol (article), there is a huge problem with Volunteer Marek's understanding of "de facto". The article Kyrenia can be a perfect example for this.

Kyrenia (Greek: Κερύνεια locally [t͡ʃeˈɾiɲˑa]; Turkish: Girne [ˈɟiɾne]) is a city on the northern coast of Cyprus, noted for its historic harbour and castle. It is under the de facto control of Northern Cyprus.

Kyrenia
Country (de jure)	Cyprus
• District	Kyrenia District
Country (de facto)	Northern Cyprus[1]
• District	Girne District

Not sure what's hard to understand that Russia (yes an occupation) has a local authority in x region of Ukraine, which indeed means de facto. As similar articles to Kherson/Zaporizhya stuff, there is a long standing example of Girne District (de facto) and Kyrenia District (de jure). Such edit warring is simply not ok. Either we should have wikipedia wide consensus on de facto/de jure stuff, not allow de facto things both in lede or infobox, or this should not happen at the first place. Beshogur (talk) 15:27, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't the place to discuss content issues, but fwiw, no, the proble is with you not understanding that something needs to be sourced for us to include it. If there are no sources that say "de facto Russia" then we don't put that in either. Additionally you're failing to understand the difference between "de facto controlled by Russia" and "de facto Russia". The former is true, the second one is not. I don't know anything about Kyrenia, nor do I care, since WP:OTHERSTUFF is a thing. Volunteer Marek 16:07, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally you're failing to understand the difference between "de facto controlled by Russia" and "de facto Russia". that's not even true. Does Russia have a local administration for both Crimea Republic and Simferopol? The answer is yes. Simple as that. And there is no difference between both of your sentences. De facto is de facto, and we denote that on every article with similar situation because of npov. Beshogur (talk) 16:34, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Curious statement coming from someone who's spent the last 3 weeks edit warring to remove "under the de facto control of Russia" from the lead. But indeed, this is not the place for a content discussion (I've said my piece, and then some, on the talk page, including plenty of sources, which for the most part you're content to ignore), but merely to point out the way you behave when editing, which, as it's become pretty clear to me, is not limited to a single article, or to your interactions with those of us who had the misfortune of editing it. The fact that nobody seems to care about it doesn't mean I, or anyone else, doesn't have the right to complain. Ostalgia (talk) 18:49, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Volunteer Marek's edit warring on Kherson Oblast (Russia)

1. [302] rv 1
2. [303] rv 2
3. [304] rv 3
4. [305] rv 4
5. [306] rv 5

within 24 hours. (and those are the consecutive ones)

edit warring on Zaporozhye Oblast (Russia)

1. [307] rv 1
2. [308] rv 2
3. [309] rv 3
4. [310] rv 4
5. [311] rv 5
6. [312] rv 6
7. [313] rv 7
8. [314] rv8

within 24 hours. (similarly as above) Beshogur (talk) 15:20, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah with these edits including reverting IP user restoring fake information. Unfortunately there were also a few accounts-who-should-know-better also restoring unsourced text. And yes, this unsourced text was fake (fake flag, fake governor, fake existence). Hell, User:Beshogur, you yourself restored fake unsourced text and also here. The IPs and brand new accounts? They have a plausible excuse, that they don't know Wikipedia policy (plausible but unlikely). What's your excuse? Why did you restore fake unsourced text? This isn't something that you can hide with "no consensus!" behind. Fake unsourced text is fake unsourced text and any experienced user should know better. Volunteer Marek 15:22, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And now we have the same crap going on at Russian occupation of Kherson Oblast [315] from yet another account that's barely a few hours old [316]. Volunteer Marek 15:27, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh cool, accusing me of using those? Beshogur (talk) 15:29, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Did I link to an edit by you? Volunteer Marek 15:30, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Don't place it below me then. And sockpuppetry/meatpuppetry reverting is not excuse. You should've asked for protection way before. And regarding those articles, This was the version of that you edited first time (2 days after this). You are removing stuff, so you need consensus.I am trying to find middle ground. Beshogur (talk) 15:31, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't place it below you. And I did ask for protection (El C protected it). And yes, reverting sock puppets who are inserting fake unsourced text into an article IS indeed a valid reason for reversion. And no, I don't need "consensus" (sic) to remove unsourced text. Especially when it's fake info someone made up. You are not trying to find a middle ground. You are trying to deflect from the fact that you edit warred to restore unsourced fake text into an article. And then had the audacity to falsely accuse me of removing *sourced* text. If you want "middle ground" start with striking your false accusations. Volunteer Marek 15:38, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am not above being corrected but I believe the restoration of unsourced information is a violation of policy and the offending information can be removed immediately. I don't think that counts as edit warring. --ARoseWolf 15:36, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@ARoseWolf: 3RR violation is violation. And those were not even consecutive reverts. There were way more. Beshogur (talk) 15:52, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes but I am saying this doesn't appear to be 3RR because its not edit warring to remove unsourced contentious content. The violation is the persistent inclusion of the content. Cooler heads need to prevail here. I appreciate the attempts as described by Fram below to try and slow this down. Fram is right concerning the encyclopedia. Slow and methodical. In my opinion there isn't anything behavior wise actionable but I'm not an admin so they may see something different, however, I would encourage, as a fellow editor, that everyone involved cool off before coming back and discussing this on the article talk pages, or anywhere on Wikipedia, in a civil manner. That's how collaborative efforts work. --ARoseWolf 16:08, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are removing stuff, so you need consensus. hwhat? No, the addition of material requires consensus. The addition of material also requires reliable sources directly supporting it. Though VM, you are much better off getting help from a post at NPOVN or RSN than trying to deal with nationalist trolls on your own. Doesnt leave an opening for things like "you need consensus to remove bullshit". nableezy - 15:42, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Turning this into this is acceptable right? Beshogur (talk) 16:02, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, when none of the removed material has sources referring to a Russian oblast. Restoring material without even pretending to have looked at the sources, like say here, is not. nableezy - 16:07, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[317] Shoudln't pretend like this isn't Russian government website. Beshogur (talk) 16:17, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is a government website and primary, not to mention unreliable. It can't be used to support anything in Wikivoice. That makes it poorly sourced and therefore removable. --ARoseWolf 16:23, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's why I first redirected and then AfD'ed these. People rush in and add all sorts of unverified, unverifiable, ... information prematurely or incorrectly to a rapidly developing, controversial situation. Claims have been made about the actual borders of the Russian-claimed oblast (the same as the Ukrainian one? Larger?), about the flag and coat of arms (because someone saw a flag in the background of a Putin speech, not really the kind of sourcing we prefer), and so on. It is even dubious if the regions can be described as "annexed", as annexation requires occupation but Russia has claimed parts they don't even occupy. We should be an encyclopedia, not an attempt to be the first to document something in the hope that it will turn out to be correct, and certainly not when tempers around it get this heated (unlike, say, Hurricane Ian, where no one disputes that there is a hurricane and many are killed, and the uncertainty is mainly about the correct numbers and so on). Waiting, slowing down, treating things like this first in existing articles, of which there are plenty (Kherson Oblast, Russian occupation of Kherson Oblast, 2022 annexation referendums in Russian-occupied Ukraine and Annexation of Southern and Eastern Ukraine). That attempt by me spectacularly failed though... Fram (talk) 15:50, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, think its worth a community imposed extended confirmed restriction for all articles related to the Russia-Ukraine war. Youre not going to be able to deal with the IPs and newly registered accounts that will come in droves over this. It should be applied as broadly as the ARBPIA one, all articles and wider discussions such as requested moves, AFDs, and RFCs, but allow for participation on the talk page. We have a horrible record of dealing with nationalist disputes without somewhat impinging on the "anybody can edit" credo as they always attract trolls from all sides. Better to leave this to editors who have a demonstrated competence of and commitment to our policies. nableezy - 16:04, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes something like that is very much needed. We have the same crap going on across dozens of articles as some users/accounts try to "conquer" land on Wikipedia for Russia [318]. Volunteer Marek 16:13, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree to limit editing of articles related to the Russian-Ukrainian conflict to groups of unverified users. PLATEL (talk) 16:10, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Whereas most of the articles mentioned above should be indeed protected (seriously, in Dudchany, which I have written yesterday night, someone already twice added information "liberated according to unconfirmed reports"), this particular dispute is between two editors with over 20K edits. Ymblanter (talk) 16:13, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I dont think thats completely accurate. Yes, Beshogur and VM are in dispute, but that is exacerbated by the IPs and brand new accounts. And youd certainly not have the number of reverts if it were EC protected. nableezy - 16:25, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am not in dispute with someone. Don't put words in my mouth. I reverted him single time. I am saying that we should wait for article deletion result. Beshogur (talk) 16:27, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nableezy, I've already ECP'd both pages following an additional request (permalink). El_C 16:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I saw that, Im saying we should go even wider. ECP the AFD, and impose ECP on all related articles. nableezy - 17:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I_C. I haven't looked at the AfDs yet, but that might be a good idea. El_C 17:04, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Now  Done. El_C 17:30, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Even if the article is kept, that does not justify blanket reversions of material that is not reliably sourced. And yes, when you revert somebody and then lobby for them to be blocked you are in dispute with them. nableezy - 16:33, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Beshogur - I'm just wondering. Why did you take sides and jumped in support of the IP -->[319],[320] and another editor --->[321],[322] re-inserting unsourced data and then asking for consensus? Why not ask for consensus without reverting (I'll repeat) to the unsourced problematic version? Why did you revert without inspecting if the info you re-inserted is referenced? I find it problematic, you know? GizzyCatBella🍁 16:47, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Beshogur and you did the exact same thing here and then you came here. That wasn’t the right thing to do, think about it.

Anyway, I agree with the motion of extended confirmed restrictions for all articles related to the Russia-Ukraine war. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your "unsourced problematic version" has 18 sources, and Volunteer Marek's version has 7 sources. Beshogur (talk) 16:58, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, 18 sources. Let's see what they are.

A source from June 2022, supposedly about an oblast created in October 2022. Except it's actually a source about an entity that existed in ... 1944

Then two whole sections with 0 sources.

Then another unsourced section which describes the Ukranian oblast

Then a section on the referendum with four sources, two of them unreliable and none of them about the topic (we already have an article 2022 annexation referendums in Russian-occupied Ukraine)

Then a section on annexation with one source, CNN. Except that source isn't about any oblasts either even though the text falsely claims it is.

And of course a whole bunch of made up fake unsourced garbage in the infobox.

So yeah, you restored three whole sections which were completely unsourced. One section which had a single source which said nothing like what the article text claimed. And another section with a single source which also had nothing like what the article text claimed.

I guess if we want to be accurate you restored a version that was "mostly unsourced + couple sources being used to lie to readers by misrepresenting their content." Yeah... I don't think that makes it any better Beshogur. Volunteer Marek 17:08, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The source you are referring to was the website of the Military-Civilian Administration which was created in June. However since it's accession to the Russian Federation (As ratified by the Duma today) The website has been updated to reflect that. RadomirZinovyev 17:26, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• There's a bit of on-wiki chaos here. The number of new and newish accounts making similar arguments, the number of citations to official or low quality sources, and the number of problematic edits/arguments are all concerning, and clearly the more experienced Wikipedians are getting stretched thin. This looks like one or more brave admins need to jump in and start raising some protection levels and handing out tbans. FWIW. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @Rhododendrites Start with extended confirmed restrictions for all articles related to the Russia-Ukraine war. That will prevent a lot of possible issues. Veterans will find their way to consensus. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:18, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I was about to suggest topic bans for Platel and Beshogur, to be honest. A lot of heat would be removed from the area. ValarianB (talk) 17:33, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @Beshogur: reasons for that exactly? Beshogur (talk) 17:37, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @Beshogur Please. Just don’t comment so quickly, cool down, your perspective might change. We’ll resolve it eventually - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:39, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @ValarianB I think Beshogur just needs to cool down. This is very emotional topic. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:37, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @GizzyCatBella: what do you mean emotiononal? I have 0 relation with both Russia or Ukraine. Beshogur (talk) 17:39, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  It's clear you're a friend of Marek, what discord do you guys share? Care to give an invite?RadomirZinovyev 17:52, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @RadomirZinovyev as I understand Beshogur’s emotional reaction due to the development of this discussion your above attack has no excuse. - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @RadomirZinovyev, strike that please. -- Malcolmxl5 (talk) 18:12, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @GizzyCatBella: perspective regarding that two oblast things? I left that topic a long time ago. Beshogur (talk) 17:41, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  🏖⏰ - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:50, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Just ban PLATEL (talk · contribs) temporarily (1 month is enough to make him calm down I reckon?) from editing anything related to the current Russo-Ukrainian war. And spare us from further disruption and collateral damage (I'm not an extended-confirmed editor in English language Wikipedia; I understand the reason why this limit is being proposed below (Volodymyr Saldo page that I'm watching gets vandalized several times a day by anons or apparent socks); however, established editors like PLATEL shoudn't be allowed to contribute to further disorder that we inevitably receive from KremlinBots.Knižnik (talk) 20:15, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I thought that I could calmly withdraw from the discussion, after having voiced my position for the billionth, backed up by official documents and other secondary sources, but now they are calling for my ban, apparently, simply because I zealously defended my position.

  Just calm down (ha, I'm talking about calmness) and participate in the discussion, supporting your opinions with arguments and analogies, expressing a neutral, unbiased point of view and not taking a position in the Russian-Ukrainian conflict.

  PLATEL (talk) 20:23, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I've read this long discussion with increasing surprise. The number of outrageous personal comments Beshogur engages in here, towards several users, is astonishing. First the claim that Volunteer Marek is WP:NOTHERE, unacceptable in itself. Then doubling down below by insinuating Volunteer Marek and GizzyCatBella, two active long-term contributors, are socks. This combines with a number of heated and ill-judged comments by Beshogur throughout this thread. I move that a time-out from Wikipedia be in both Beshogur's and the community's best interest. Jeppiz (talk) 22:49, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Jeppiz: did not mean sockpuppet per se. Also I am not an ego machine, I apologized for that mistake. Beshogur (talk) 07:14, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I feel like much of the discussion here has strayed from the original purpose of this ANI. And that is that Marek has engaged in rather disruptive editing recently, engaging in edit wars, some slow motion, and some more quickly, on pretty much any topic that could possibly be related to Russia and Ukraine. For example, Marek has twice removed Crimea and Sevastopol from List of federal subjects of Russia by population for seemingly no other reason than that other countries don't recognize Crimea as Russian, which is completely irrelevant to whether or not it is recorded in the Russian census. And has provided rather unhelpful edit summaries at times, as an example, from his first removal of Crimea and Sevastopol from List of federal subjects of Russia by population, he wrote this: "Stop trying to legitimize brutal aggression and illegal land grabs." I feel that such editing is detrimiental to the encyclopedia, and shouldn't be encouraged. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 23:19, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The socks and SPAs are active on quite a significant range of other articles to try to push this unsupported POV narrative. Cambial — foliar❧ 00:07, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Uncanny edit time differences between Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs) and GizzyCatBella (talk · contribs)

Proposal: Extended-confirmed restriction for all articles related to the Russia-Ukraine War