Request concerning Grandmaster

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Zimmarod (talk) 00:58, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Grandmaster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

• Wikipedia:ARBAA2#Standard discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

• Grandmaster's stalking of User:Oliveriki with repeated un-actionable AE requests. Second (recent) AE request: [1]. First request: [2].
• Edit-warring or/and WP:TE, with no attempt to discuss on talk pages, in the highly contentious article Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in Armenia largely authored by the topic-banned User:Brandmeister [3], [4].
• Display of bad faith via continued labeling of several accounts for two consecutive years despite several warnings and multiple negative SPIs [5], [6], [7]
• Conflict-related advocacy in the thread regarding Yerevanci's appeal, as per User:Sandstein [8]
• Promotion of bona fide POV sources, such as the Azerbaijani state news website 1news.az [9], while suppressing peer-reviewed Western academic references by gaming a consensus-building effort, per WP:GAME, WP:NPOV, and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT [10].

Example of disruptive behavior that went unaddressed in 2012:

• On 18 April 2012, as previosly reported by several editors, Grandmaster vandalized the Nagorno-Karabakh article by removing 38Kb of material, in the process undoing the edits of User:Oliveriki, User:Dehr, User:Winterbliss, User:Sprutt, User:Vacio, User:VartanM, User:Sardur; User:Hablabar; and User:VahagnAvedian. These edits were supported on talk pages, in a consensus negotiated for over a month by most above-mentioned accounts, plus User:Nocturnal781 and User:Zimmarod [11]; summary of the consensus-building effort is here [12].

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

• Warned on 7 February 2013 by Zimmarod (talk · contribs)
• Warned on 5 February 2013, 10 February 2013 by Sandstein (talk · contribs) and by Lord Roem (talk · contribs)
• Warned on 7 March 2012 by Aghetrichter (talk · contribs)
• Warned on 18 April 2012 by Zimmarod (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This discussion is a follow-up on User:Sandstein's [13] suggestion to more closely inspect User:Grandmaster, in light of his recent abuse of AE process by filing the second un-actionable AE request against User:Oliveriki [14]. This was preceded by Grandmaster's edit-warring or/and WP:TE [15], [16], with no attempt to discuss on talk pages, in the highly contentious article Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in Armenia. The article was started and heavily edited by User:Brandmeister - a repeatedly topic-banned account, now for two years. User:Grandmaster maneuvers almost exclusively within the most contentious AA2 topics, editing articles from a partisan viewpoint as per WP:TE. Here is just one example provided by User:517design that illustrates Grandmaster's aggressive style: [17], [18], [19], [20]. Despite multiple warnings, Grandmaster continues harassing a group of editors, including User:Oliveriki and myself, implying that their participation in WP should be ignored or restricted, because of edit count and other real of imaginary issues; at the very same time Grandmaster has aggressively defended the previously topic-banned User:Brandmeister who was sanctioned for the second time just recently because of edit-warring [21]. Grandmaster applies double standards regarding academic sources as well. Here [22] he promotes a bona fide POV Azerbaijani state website 1news.az [23] as reference, while here [24] he tried to suppress the use of a high quality work by peer-reviewed Western academics [25] by gaming the system as per WP:GAME and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.

Recent AE actions against User:Yerevanci and User:517design showed a trend toward the use of stricter standards in regard to AA2. User:Cailil said: I agree with Sandstein that in areas under multiple ArbCom mandated probations: "We should expect not only defensible, but exemplary conduct from anyone who wishes to edit [them]" [26]. Given that Grandmaster partisanship, intermittent display of anger and other breaches of WP rules are hardly defensible, his continued editorial participation at WP comes under questions.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[27]

Reply to Gatoclass and Sandstein

• Yes, some of the diffs are old but relevant since they illustrate the continuity of patterns of disruptive behavior. True, some of the recent concerns – regarding Oliveriki - were lightly reviewed and a warning to Grandmaster has been mentioned in the closing AE paragraph; this review, however, did not amount to a full assessment since actionable assessments need separate AE requests. Neither was there a formal warning on Grandmaster's webpage - please place it there so that everyone could see it. In other words, both older and newer issues are relevant and should be carefully examined. Grandmaster's WP:TE editing of Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in Armenia is the most recent issue. There, instead of explaining himself on talk pages as a response to a bold action by Eupator [28], Grandmaster simply yanked back this highly controversial, WP:OR-based paragraph, thus continuing an edit war in which parts of the text were deleted and then restored again without any attempt at proper consensus building [29]. It also seemed that the definition of vandalism has been changed, and in its present edition I would qualify Grandmaster's actions on Nagorno-Karabakh as an especially disruptive case of WP:TE instead of vandalism. Zimmarod (talk) 01:54, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Devil's Advocate

• The Devil's nickname is a symbol of a commitment to be unfair, and the Devil does not fail to live up to that moniker. The Devil was warned by User:Sandstein that his unreasonably partisan style and aggressive language is not helpful in AE forum [30]. I urge the Devil to retract his emotional statement, and think that AE administrators should limit Devil's participation in delicate topic areas such as AA2 due to his intention to provoke and to confuse. Zimmarod (talk) 01:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Grandmaster

Yes, there were those like Golbez who to this day entertain various theories about meating and socking. This is a violation of WP:AGF. However, neither Golbez nor Sandstein did file two meritless AE requests against Oliveriki. Zimmarod (talk) 01:53, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning Grandmaster

Statement by Grandmaster

To tell the truth, I do not understand what exactly I'm being accused of. I'm not the only one who thinks that the activity of Zimmarod, Oliveriki and 517design in Shusha looks very suspicious. Sandstein agreed "that the history of the article gives the impression that sock- or meatpuppetry may be involved". [31] Golbez also stated that he believed Zimmarod was a sock account. [32] I wonder why Zimmarod does not report those admins, they expressed the same or even harsher opinions than myself about Zimmarod? With regard to the article Nagorno-Karabakh, the situation there was dealt with in this thread: [33], by imposing article level sanctions that would limit the ability of editors with less than 500 edits to rv the article. Admins made it clear that this was done to stop socking and meatpuppeting in the article: [34], while my activity did not lead to any sanctions. Also, Zimmarod does not mention that back then he 3 times restored the edits of the sock of the banned user, without any consensus at talk. In any case, we are talking about something that took place 1 year ago, and most of accounts that Zimmarod says were supporting him are now banned either from editing the whole Wikipedia, or AA topics. That also demonstrates that those accounts were engaged in disruptive activity. My reporting on Oliveriki was dealt with in the appropriate report, where I was warned, so I do not understand what the point is in repeatedly filing enforcement reports on issues that have already been reviewed? If Zimmarod thinks that the edit warring in Nagorno-Karabakh 1 year ago or me filing a report on Oliveriki were not dealt with properly, he needs to file an Arbitration enforcement action appeal and contest the decisions of the admins. Grandmaster 19:44, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I consider accusations of vandalism to be a personal attack, because there's a clear definition of what vandalism is, and my actions 1 year ago did not fit that definition, and admins believed that it was "not appropriate in such a contested article to add so much content in a single edit without discussion, and that the additions need to be discussed section by section by the parties concerned so that outstanding issues can be properly addressed". So clearly the disruption was caused by accounts that tried to restore the edits of the banned editor and mass puppeter, and not by those who tried to get them to discuss and reach consensus first. So I believe admins also need to look into bad faith assumptions and personal attacks by the editor who filed this report. Grandmaster 19:59, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Zimmarod. Golbez filed this SPI request: [35], where he described in much detail what was going on in the article about Nagorno-Karabakh. And since you raised here that old story, the edit warring on NK was started by Vandorenfm (talk · contribs) and Gorzaim (talk · contribs), who were banned as socks on 15 and 18 September 2011. And then it was picked up by a group of accounts that were created around the same time in October-November 2011.

• October 1, 2011: Dehr (talk · contribs) created a user account
• November 11, 2011: Sprutt (talk · contribs) created a user account
• November 16, 2011: Zimmarod (talk · contribs) created a user account
• November 19, 2011: Winterbliss (talk · contribs) created a user account
• November 22, 2011: Hablabar (talk · contribs) created a user account

I’m just presenting the facts here, and letting others judge. But the question is, what are the odds that a group of unrelated people could create those accounts and start editing the same page in order to restore the edits of sock accounts of a banned user? It is also of interest that those accounts appear after long absence to support each other, like it was in Shusha recently. Sometimes they are joined by older accounts, which also demonstrate only sporadic activity. Just an example, Zimmarod appeared on 13 December 2012 to support Sprutt at AE: [36] But Zimmarod's last edit prior to that was on 8 October 2012, i.e. he was absent for more than 2 months. So did 517design, who was absent since 28 October 2012, but who appeared on 14 December 2012 to support Sprutt at AE: [37] How did these users become aware of that AE report? We may consider these facts to be just coincidences, but aren't there too many such coincidences? Grandmaster 00:12, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Grandmaster

Comments by The Devil's Advocate

I once more call for a WP:BOOMERANG on Zimmarod. Talk of "vandalism" and "stalking" is completely beyond the pale and does not match the facts by any measure. Honestly, I feel Sandstein's warning about filing reports against Oliveriki was misguided given the level of disruption created by that account in so few edits. Action against Grandmaster on the basis of Zimmarod's report, even if Zimmarod is sanctioned, would be a mistake, in my opinion.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 06:00, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Grandmaster

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Most of these diffs either look very old or concern conduct which has already been reviewed. Linking to an article history page is not a very helpful method of demonstrating "edit warring". Which particular edits on that page in your view constitute evidence of edit warring? Gatoclass (talk) 02:17, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewing the diffs presented, I'm not convinced that there is something actionable here. The request uses very strong or even hyperbolic language, accusing Grandmaster of severe misconduct such as partisan editing, gaming the system, vandalism, stalking, harassing or edit-warring. Yet the evidence submitted is not sufficient to substantiate such severe accusations. For example, the charge of edit-warring is only supported with a link to a history page and one diff. We can't determine edit-warring on that basis. Zimmarod alleges that at [38], Grandmaster engages in "promotion of bona fide POV sources" such as 1news.az. Yet even assuming for the sake of argument that this news medium is indeed biased, Grandmaster only cites it to attribute a statement allegedly made by a person to that news medium, which appears unproblematic. The edit at [39], which Zimmarod characterizes as vandalism, seems to me to reflect, at most, editing contrary to an (alleged) consensus. That is not in and of itself sanctionable, because consensus can change. It only becomes problematic if it is done repeatedly (by edit-warring), or as part of a pattern of tendentious editing. But that would need more than one diff to establish. Likewise, Zimmarod alleges that Grandmaster is "editing articles from a partisan viewpoint as per WP:TE", but cites as evidence only edits to an AfD page (i.e., not an article), which moreover do not appear unduly partisan or aggressive to me.

Only one part of the evidence is more concerning. It is not acceptable to allege abusive sockpuppetry on the part of an editor, as Grandmaster did at [40], without evidence, and in an inappropriate context (on an article talk page, which is supposed to be about content, not conduct issues). As a positive counter-example, at [41], Grandmaster did supply (what he considered to be) circumstantial evidence of sock- or meatpuppetry, and did so in a contextually appropriate forum.

On that basis, I recommend closing this request with a warning to both Zimmarod and Grandmaster not to accuse others of severe misconduct (such as vandalism or sockpuppetry) unless such accusations are made (a) in the appropriate dispute resolution or enforcement forum, and (b) with adequate evidence to support these accusations. Failure to heed this warning could lead to a topic ban for either editor.  Sandstein  15:31, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

While I've been waiting for Zimmarod to respond to my request for specific diffs, I have been considering laying a brief topic ban for filing what appears to be a meritless report. However, the pattern of his evidence, including heavy reliance on old diffs, suggests a lack of familiarity with this process, which requires evidence of recent misconduct. I guess we could give him the benefit of the doubt but I think a warning not to file meritless requests would be appropriate. With regard to the "comments on contributor", given the tensions in contentious topic areas it is not surprising that users might be inclined to vent a little once they arrive at a dispute resolution forum, so rather than a warning I would probably lean to a reminder to both parties that charges made against other parties need to be backed up by evidence. Gatoclass (talk) 16:13, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Zimmarod has been here before, several times. I think a warning is merited, and an action may be. Editors who have been here before surely know that diffs are required and brevity and clarity is strongly encouraged. KillerChihuahua 18:18, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Given that Zimmarod's intemperate commentary in this request has just been flagged by Sandstein as possible grounds for a warning, I am not at all impressed by Zimmarod's response, where he says of another user: The Devil's nickname is a symbol of a commitment to be unfair, and the Devil does not fail to live up to that moniker.[42] That strikes me as a totally gratuitous and indefensible breach of WP:AGF, not to mention WP:BATTLEGROUND. It seems the message is not getting through here. Gatoclass (talk) 04:22, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sandstein explained very well how this request is not actionable towards Grandmaster. I also have to agree with Gatoclass that Zimmarod's comment about "the Devil" is inappropriate, and very much playing with a battleground mentality. At the very least, a warning needs to be issued to Zimmarod. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 15:50, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Don't see anything actionable against Grandmaster. Also agree that the clearly inappropriate and inaccurate interpretation of another editor's name Zimmarod made above probably does qualify for at least a warning, and probably more, although I guess I would probably lean toward lighter rather than heavier sanctions. John Carter (talk) 20:10, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In consideration of the above discussion, I am closing this request with a warning to Zimmarod. Any continued battleground-like conduct is likely to result in a block or ban. I'm not issuing a separate warning to Grandmaster, because his one edit problematic in this regard is rather old now, although of course the advice applies to him and all other editors active in the topic area as well.  Sandstein  10:11, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Request concerning Nado158

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:30, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Nado158 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:ARBMAC

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

While looking at the recent Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Persecution of Serbs and other non-Albanians in Kosovo, it came to my attention that Nado158 should be cautioned for persistent battleground mentality in WP:ARBMAC topic areas.

• My old warnings about it are already gone from their User talk:
  • In November 2012, they blithely accuse me of editing based on ethnicity. In response to my warning, they walk back on it with a few platitudes. The context is described at Talk:Ante Gotovina#Del Ponte, Haradinaj, ...
  • In January 2013, they try to blank an article instead of proposing deletion (despite having seen AfDs before); no response to my warning. User:Praxis Icosahedron complained to me about them then.

• They were involved in the coattails of the recent User:Oldhouse2012 flamewar by making these kinds of edits for which User:Shokatz complained to them and to myself already.

• In this latest discussion, first WhiteWriter makes a largely pointless accusation (who in turn has something of a history of being so wrong to be disruptive on the topic of sockpuppetry), and then Nado158 proceeds to copy and paste the same pointless accusation later in the discussion, despite the fact WW had at that point already been criticized for making such accusations.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

• already linked above

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I didn't analyze the entire contribution history of the user, but the common thread with these incidents appears to be Serbian nationalism topics and talking points - Ante Gotovina is someone who must be a villain; Bošnjani can't have existed in the 14th century because Serbian historians know it was all Serbia in the 9th; Zemun is Serbian today, so its history as part of other states can't be but a worthless concoction of Hungarian and Croatian irredentists (both!); Kosovo is, well, Kosovo, so there (no analysis of WP:SYNTH necessary).

(I apologize if the readers don't appreciate my sarcasm. I've been exposed to this stuff for a long time now, and I have to find some humor in it, otherwise it's just too depressing.)

Given the problems, Nado158's contribution in these topic areas does not seem like a net positive for the encyclopedia. I've tried to do due dilligence and tried to find proof to the contrary, and found only some more gems of the unrelated kind in the Persecution... article:

• In [43], they added a chunk of information, seemingly sourced, but accompanied with a huge blockquote that is essentially soapboxing
• [44] - lots of broken English
• [45] and [46] - lots of copy&paste from an OSCE Report, whose reference is in turn copied and pasted each time
• [47] - copy&paste from Radio Netherlands Worldwide
• [48] - copy&paste from The Guardian

I suggest an initial temporary topic ban on anything related to such talking points. I have no prejudice against other topic areas - although I did just notice this incident while searching for their AfD history.

I'm not enacting such a topic ban myself because a possibility of WP:INVOLVED, and because any such action by myself could be generally construed as persecution of a poor Serbian user by the evil Croats, which would just compound the problem, regardless of the notion being baseless. It's best for this to be reviewed by neutral editors.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• [49]

Random discussion comments

• WhiteWriter, the part that made your accusation largely pointless was that you wrote a generic clause invited here off line by one of "Delete" users above. If you have doubts in the good faith of any particular "delete user", you should say that clearly and precisely. Casually lumping them all together and throwing around an unspecified accusation of sockpuppetry is simply bad form. It subtly perpetuates the illusion that there are "delete users" and "keep users", and it's all too easy to extend that into an "us vs. them" relationship - battleground mentality. And as we can see from this example, once you do something like that, someone like Nado158 can pick up the cue and make things worse. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:39, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

...and I should also mention, User:Peacemaker67 already told you this a week ago over there:

as I am one of those "delete" users you have referred to, I am offended by your suggestion that I might have invited a sock or SPA to !vote here. You are attacking the man, not the argument, which is always the tactic of the desperate. Either produce the evidence you have of the canvassing of the SPA/sock or strike your attack on the integrity of all of the users that happen to have recommended "delete".

Yet you nevertheless now accused me of misrepresenting and misleading. You too need to lay off the battleground mentality. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:54, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Regarding Nado158's questions - I'm willing to do a point-by-point answer/rebuttal session if anyone else confirms that they want an answer to anything. In the meantime, I'll just give you a general answer: you say this behavior is the product of 'errors' and that you can improve, but at the same time you freely admit that you seem to hold some sort of a grudge against myself for "writing anti-Serbian". I'm doing no such thing; I generally try to use the encyclopedia for what it's for: to describe things that exist in the real life. If I (or anyone else) describe something relevant that is negative towards Serbia, Croatia, trees, toasters, or any number of other things or concepts, you should not automatically attribute that to an inherent bias. Assuming bad faith is a fairly typical sign that you need to steer away from some topics. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 16:25, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I not to hold some sort of a grudge against you for "writing anti-Serbian" but you do it with me and I wonder why? I do not write "anti-Croatian". I generally try to use also the encyclopedia for what it's for like you: to describe things that exist in the real life. You said: "If I (or anyone else) describe something relevant that is negative towards Serbia, Croatia, trees, toasters, or any number of other things or concepts, you should not automatically attribute that to an inherent bias." The same is also true for me and I have not bad intentions.--Nado158 (talk) 20:28, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning Nado158

Statement by Nado158

Reply to Joy

@Joy - You looked at the recent Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Persecution of Serbs and other non-Albanians in Kosovo, and you recognize that I persistent "battleground mentality"? I have just answered and I just defended my opinion. This falls on you that I used "battleground mentality", but you not saw that the users have to start before with this mentalitiy, and have used the same language? I wonder why? I have offended nobody, and have dealt respectfully with each. I was the one who actually proposed to end this without meaningful discussions and I answered politely and always ended every sentence reasonable. So why complain only to me and represent me as if I the user treat bad what is not true?--Nado158 (talk) 12:04, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Joy - About the Gotovina topic: You had removed a comment by Carla del Ponte (soruces from The Guardian...[50]), who was a very important person to this case, and my suspicion was that you've only done this because they had judged negatively about Gotovina. I do not knew you and just bevore I meet many users from all the ethnic group who write is not objective, use the POV or NPOV. I unfortunately made ​​the mistake and react too quickly. I realized my error and I apologized to you. It is 3 months ago and I have since then, specifically to the Carla del Ponte topic, did not return right? Did I continou to discussion with you about this? No. I learned from it so make me please not so bad or that there would be a constant problem-with me. About the Bošnjani topic: It was my mistake. I have not read the sources, not the talk page etc. I was too fast and made rookie errors. After I read the sources and the Talk Page, I saw that I was wrong. I have apologized for it and also I never returned again to this page. About the Zemun topic: I dont know who is Oldhouse2012. I came to this site because I wanted to write about sports because I mainly for 80% write about sports and this topic very interrested me. I finally done this, but also I saw a large part of the text without sources and who was added again and again by someone, or from the new user Shokatz. To me its looked like POV, I thought it was a sock. And because there are no sources for this was given, I decided to remove it. But I was never rude, etc.--Nado158 (talk) 12:04, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Joy - About the topic Sockpuppet: Your accusation that WhiteWriter is rightly criticizes was wrong, because he was right. I saw the accusation of WhiteWriter was not meaningless, because they led to discovery to a sock. Also User Peacemaker67 was agree with WhiteWriter. The suddenly emerging user Kosovo 2008 Albania 1912 has been blocked [51]. I also saw the other users have expressed their opinion on suspicion. So I thought I also have the right if there is suspicion. My suspicion was mainly related to Keithstanton, and what eventually happened? He has been blocked due to abuse of editing privileges [52]. I was right. And I wonder very much about your accusations, because you yourself complained about him as you can se here.[53]. So why you may that and I not?I would add further....--Nado158 (talk) 12:04, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Joy - You said, that you didn't analyze the entire contribution history of me, but you saw my beginner errors while you overlooked a lot of my good articles have which nothing to do with these topics. You've picked out the 5% of the "bad things" and all the other good things omitted represent bad about me. You've been looking for a hair in the soup. You overlooked that I worked already with Croatian, Hungarian an other users. You made allegations that I have maybe Nationalist background, that I want to Gotovina look bad, although 98% of anything I not wrote about him (I could also say that you want to let Gotovina look much prettirt or? And I remind you that Carla Del Ponte said the things about him which I want to add at that time. Why can her opinion appear at other politicians and not on his page? However) You make me all the allegations even though I do not edit anything or 98% of pages which are in relation to Croatia, ist history, the wars etc.? At the same time you make me the reproach even though you edit numerous Serbian articles (about politicians etc). There you write often anti-Serbian and confront the things are worse as they are. You make me the allegations even though I even already written Pro-Croatian ect and I can prove this? In addition I have hardly anything (98%) ever written about Republic of Kosovo. Why do they try to transfer a stereotype to me? I am willing to work with all of you. With me about everything can be arranged. I respect every one here, but I would add that I also have a rights.--Nado158 (talk) 12:58, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Joy - About the broken English: I improve my English every day and if I make a grammatical error, then I am pleased if another user corrects me and and I happy if I learn from it. You could have improved my fault instead of criticizing me for such a thing. I also wrote numerous articles which showed a good English, and nobody complains about this. Also that you overlooked. I would appreciate if you let me upgrade and I learn from it.--Nado158 (talk) 13:11, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Joy - About the copy allegations: The copy allegations are exaggerated. There are 1-2 sentences or few words but that all. How should I rewrite 1-2 sentences from Radio Netherlands Worldwide and The Guardian? The goal was to add a source who proved the act. I have not invented this. Similarly, the OSCE report. How should I write this? And as you see I have mentioned there the persecution of Croats, as you can see your accusation that I had a problem with Croats is wrong. And at least I work with sources in contrast to some other users.Thank you.--Nado158 (talk) 13:25, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to others

@ZjarriRrethues - About the topic: "In August 2005, two Serbs were shot dead and two injured when their car was taken under fire". Please do not twist my things. I've already added a new source from Germany which describes these things etc. These things are written there. If I have made ​​a mistake then say it to me please? Here the source. The answers to all the rest coming soon. Thank you.[54]--Nado158 (talk) 20:04, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@To all of you - I am willing to work with all of you, and of course in accordance with the laws. I not realized really that my changes are a problem or that they are a big problem. Where I realized that I made mistake (I made rookie errors) I have apologized and stopped it, and you can see this. With me about everything can be arranged. I respect every one here, but I would add that I also have a right to reply to the entire mentioned problems and to defend myself, because I see some misunderstandings and I want to solve these things peacefully.--Nado158 (talk) 20:53, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Zero - About the topic: Gnjilane Group: The sense of the source was, that the various ethnic groups in Kosovo were killed by the Gniljane Group, and where have I made ​​a mistake? It was written in the source. There are also enough other sources. The article is about the persecution of ethnic groups. I understand not my error here? And when I made it, then you can explain it to me yet and improve this thing. Where is the problem? I desire to learn and to work high quality. Thank you!--Nado158 (talk) 09:51, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@KillerChihuahua - You've listened to me at all and not condemn me already in advance. I think that's not fair. You have to know that I am a beginner and then not know the rules or known very bad. I just looked out from other users how they act and failed to notice the error. There was an error. Today, I know a lot more, and I have not repeated some errors. I learn every day something new to it. I am willing to work with all of you. With me about everything can be arranged.--Nado158 (talk) 10:04, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You said to Joy he should ignore any further aspersions or attacks by me, who is rapidly sinking his ship even deeper. Dear KillerChihuahua, which attacks and aspersions do you mean please? Besides this, you said nothing I have said which could change your mind. Please read all my comments again. Thank you!--Nado158 (talk) 17:35, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Zjarri - About the attack with a bombs on Serbian house topic: I have given first a soruce and you not. And if you done this, then I may have overlooked it and you would have me point out more precisely. The accusation, better the the arrest of the suspect from the same ethnic group was sharply criticized by the affected family etc. They have condemned and rejected the arrest. The offender is free again and there are enough sources to this topic etc.I should add that an another user explained it to me better and we are then removed this and there were no problems from both sides. What do you say? I whish to add that...--Nado158 (talk) 13:50, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Zjarri - About the Kosovo-Albanian topic: Yes, I put the source to show that it is called Kosovo Albanian. You can put also an other source which proved that. Where is the problem? It is called Kosovo-Albanian. About the mass accusations of sockpuppetry: Which mass accusations of sockpuppetry? Whith the help of WhiteWriter and Peacemaker67 we discovered a sock. The suddenly emerging user Kosovo 2008 Albania 1912 has been blocked [55]. I also saw the other users have expressed their opinion on suspicion. So I thought I also have the right if there is suspicion. My suspicion was mainly related to Keithstanton, and what eventually happened? He has been blocked due to abuse of editing privileges [56]. I was right. And the last of your accusations, the topic about "In August 2005, two Serbs were shot dead and two injured when their car was taken under fire by Albanians during a tire change"...I already refuetes with a new source. If you want you can write take under fire by unknown persons, although the injured Serbs said it was Alabanians. I can finde sources but who you wish.--Nado158 (talk) 16:32, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@EdJohnston - I now understand the problem, and I admit that the source is unfortunate and we can replace it with another source, but is not add from my side to assume ethnic bias. In addition, can you explain to me where I misreading the source about the Gniljane Group? Please read ALL my comments again, check it etc. I whish only to understand. Besides this, I already refuted some allegations here. I worked also with Croatian, German, Hungarian, Englsih etc an other users. I am willing to work with all of you and to improve myself. Why am I so quickly sentenced? or put in a drawer? Please read ALL my comments again. Thanky you--Nado158 (talk) 16:56, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Lord Roem - Please wait? Please see also my opinion (and please read my comments above). By the way, we both have worked together a few weeks ago. In this collaboration, they have given me even partially right. I, another user and you have found a solution in the end. There were no problems. I do not think that I deserve such hard punishment.--Nado158 (talk) 17:08, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Nado158

ZjarriRrethues

• Nado had added an event that had no culprits and motives and wasn't labeled as a persecution or ethnic crime in an article under a list of incidents of persecutions. When I removed it, explained that his argument contained much original research and even provided a news piece that stated that a suspect from the same ethnic group was detained as the crime seems to be related to a dispute between two families[57], he reverted me[58] and asked for a source which I had already brought forth.
• There are also plain ethnic-battleground type edits like adding a source about a Kosovar committing a crime right on the lead of the article because it will show that it is called Kosovo Albanian.
• Blatant source misrepresentation: In August 2005, two Serbs were shot dead and two injured when their car was taken under fire by Albanians during a tire change.[59], source:Two Serbs shot dead and two injured when their car is fired at.

--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:37, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

NE Ent

Proposed sanction by puppy (1 week block followed by 1 year topic ban) seems inappropriate; while the ban is reasonably preventative, adding a block to the mix seems punitive (what will a block accomplish that a ban won't?) NE Ent 16:45, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thehoboclown

• While I don't know anything about Nado158's recent actions regarding this Serbia-Kosovo issue, I can say it's not the first time he edited in a somewhat ethnic related battleground mentality. In fact he removed links pointing to Hungarian-related articles, sometimes even doing it blindly, without checking what he is really doing – here he just undid the link removal carried out by an IP minutes before. I also submitted an ANI report, where I described the situation and warned the involved users that their actions might fall under WP:ARBEE, therefore they should be aware of being on thin ice. The report eventually concluded without getting any attention, later, however, the reported users (except Nado158) turned out to be Oldhouse2012's socks and got blocked.

I removed it, because there are not the a Hunagrian minority etc., the same for Zrenjanin and therefore there was no reason to keep them there.--Nado158 (talk) 10:44, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Additionally, Nado158 was active in a "name-removing" game in the Subotica article (here and here) and also got involved in a war over the usage of the Hungarian name of Srbobran, which actions are also very likely to fall under discretionary sanctions. Given these, I think if the the topic ban comes into effect, it should cover this area as well. Thehoboclown (talk) 20:22, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

About Subotica, the problem has been resolved. Why do you not tell the here users that I have left after the name and that I have improved the whole page with 2 other users? among them an Hungarian? Why do not you mention that? you say I was in a war because of Srborban? I have DISCUSSED with others about the topic. On the Talk Page is everything visible and where there is a war please?--Nado158 (talk) 10:52, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WhiteWriter

Evlekis

Moved out of the admin section. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 23:09, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If I can request that any admin dealing with this exercise restraint because Nado158 is very much a good faith editor who has made mistakes and realises these. Part of the problem regarding "battleground editing" is that this occurs in sensitive areas where rival factions exist in the first place. To this end, comments submitted by users perennially opposed to Nado158's outlook on article presentation should be taken with a pinch of salt. I know a lot about slinging mud because less than a year ago, I found myself at the dirty end of four AN/I inquiries and one editor to have dished out filth on this very post was instrumental in these purges - thankfully they all failed miserably but one did land me with an ARBMAC warning. I just wanted to add that not every idea of mine corresponds to Nado158's but we have been able to discuss and agree between each other and I can say that he has never reverted me when I have removed his contributions. Please see this thread which I add is live as I send this. Disciplinary at least, temporary ban at most, but indef is plain cruel. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 21:46, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Nado158

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• A quick first look shows a definite problem. Consider this edit. It says "The Gnjilane Group ... committing brutal crimes and murders against killing dozens of Serbs, Roma, and also ethnic Albanians civilians..." but the source says that a court had just overturned a conviction for such crimes and ordered a retrial. This is a blatant misrepresentation of the source. Zero^talk 11:22, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please move your comment out of this section. My answer: I can read the source myself and you misrepresented it. Zero^talk 00:49, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Such flagrant misuse of sources to promote a POV require equally strong measures, IMO. I cannot see any situation in which Nado158 can explain away such edits with any plausibility. Propose a 1 week block followed by a 1 year ban from the topic area. KillerChihuahua 18:21, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  WhiteWriter, your post is a bit opaque. Please rephrase so I can puzzle out what you're talking about. KillerChihuahua 19:41, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, it is completely unrelated to this request and I would prefer you simply remove it, and remember not to add off topic posts here. Such posting may lead to sanctions for you. KillerChihuahua 20:04, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  Nado158, I said I couldn't imagine you being able to explain away your edits. Had you surprised me and done so, then I'd be willing to reconsider. Unfortunately, nothing you have said has changed my mind. You can gain experience by editing other topics, after your block expires. May I suggest you also work on your English language skills, which you will find helpful in editing the English Wikipedia. KillerChihuahua 13:09, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  Joy; Oh please no; refrain from any point-by-point rebuttal (unless you see a question from an admin in this section) and indeed, simply ignore any further aspersions or attacks by Nado158, who is rapidly sinking his ship even deeper. KillerChihuahua 16:31, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• ZjarriRrethues: Although the BBC source does not support the edit about the two youths in a car, there is another source there too. Unfortunately it is behind a paywall; can you read it? Zero^talk 00:49, 21 February 2013 (UTC) Added: I see it is visible here. It could be cited for this incident but following the source more closely. It says they were shot by "Unbekannten" (strangers) not by Albanians. Zero^talk 01:05, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• This diff brought by ZjarriRrethues is a real gem. Nado158 added a source "Kosovan Albanian admits killing two US airmen in Frankfurt terror attack" right on the first two words of the article! KillerChihuahua, I agree to your proposed sanction. Zero^talk 00:58, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• I agree with Zero0000 that Nado158's change to the opening sentence of Kosovo Albanians is certainly inappropriate. Anyone seeing this edit is likely to assume ethnic bias on the part of the editor. Nado158's misreading of the source about the Gniljane group, which he seems to repeat in his own comment just above, is also a concern. A person reading the press article should be careful enough to tell whether a conviction is being upheld or overturned. A sanction against Nado158 is justified. EdJohnston (talk) 01:37, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• After looking through the comments and diffs above, I concur with Ed's description of the situation and feeling that a sanction is necessary. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 04:37, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Nado158 may be well intentioned and may not completely understand the effect of some of the words he is writing or copying, but several issues such as 1) copying from other sources, even if it's one sentence here and there is not appropriate 2) having a battleground mentality towards other users that they are meat or sockpuppets without proving them 3) blatantly biased sourcing within the first two words of an article as mentioned by Ed above. These issues combined alone have me supporting a sanction. Can I get my fellow admins' comments on a 6 month topic ban on Kosovo-Albanian relations broadly constructed, and a final administrative (aka non-ArbCom) warning for copyright issues and for sock accusations without evidence. Maybe I am overdoing it, but I'm willing to consider lifting the ban early if they can clearly demonstrate change in the area and the consensus of current admins here when it appeals agree. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 20:47, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  Well, I suggested a year and no one flinched, so I imagine 6 months would be agreeable to most. I'm withdrawing my initial block proposal tho. Either one, I'm agreeable. But the article intro edit has me leaning towards the year. Think about it: If you were from ethnic group X, and I edited the article on X to make sure the very first thing anyone learned about your people is that you're murderers and terrorists.... Seriously, this is a big deal. KillerChihuahua 12:06, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  This is true. 1 year does sound more appropriate. Joy has a point on my talkpage though that some of the problematic area is not covered through Albania-Kosovo relations, and I'm not exactly sure how to word that in to this proposed topic ban. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 16:18, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  It's covered, and we add "broadly construed" anyway, but I'll make a point of making it as clear as possible. If there are no objections, I'll close this shortly. KillerChihuahua 18:05, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Request concerning Sprutt

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Parishan (talk) 09:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Sprutt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2

[60]

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. [61]
2. [62]

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Topic banned and notified on [63] by NuclearWarfare (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

User:Sprutt was banned indefinitely from the topic of Armenia-Azerbaijan and related ethnic conflicts. Despite this, he removes information from the article which mentions the support of the Armenian organization for encouraging separatist movements in Azerbaijan.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[64]

Discussion concerning Sprutt

Statement by Sprutt

Armenia Fund is a charity and has nothing to do with Armenia-Azerbaijan topic in Wikipedia. Sprutt (talk) 15:47, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is directly involved in sponsoring projects in Nagorno-Karabakh, which is an Armenian-occupied part of Azerbaijan, and was criticised for supporting separatism in Nagorno-Karabakh, as mentioned in the paragraph removed by you. Parishan (talk) 16:17, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Sprutt

• I also agree with the submitter that this violates Sprutt's topic ban. Regarding my edits on the article Armenia Fund, I didn't put biased sources. Most of the sources are from blogs, videos, articles, papers, researches done by Armenians (not by Azerbaijanis) and have lots of proof & evidence for the listed facts. Therefore I don't think that my edits lack neutrality and don't understand why I have to receive warning (even formal one). Best, Konullu (talk) 17:46, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My intention wasn't to warn WP readers not contribute to Armenia Fund. I just didn't want to paraphrase that sentence assuming that it will be deleted claiming that it is my "own work" and I might be accused for bad faith. Therefore I left that sentence as it is, you can easily check on Google and see that I used the same wording used by Armenian researcher regarding the fund. Best, Konullu (talk) 22:56, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since there are doubts with regard to the scope of AA sanctions, this request for clarification might be helpful: [65] My understanding of this is that any tendentious editing related to Armenia or Azerbaijan or related regions falls within the scope of AA2 sanctions. In this regard, Sprutt did violate his restriction, as his edit was related to AA topics, from which he was banned. Grandmaster 22:04, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly find it downright amusing that Konullu would write that he didn't "want to paraphrase that sentence assuming that it will be deleted claiming that it is my 'own work' and I might be accused for bad faith." This is exactly what we encourage editors to do: to paraphrase, not copy and paste and pass the work off as your own. Konullu's edits place such obvious undue emphasis on the negative aspects of the Armenia Fund that it's possible that it didn't quite matter to him so long as he thought the content of the edits spoke for itself. To add this text without placing it in quotation marks is not only plagiarism but, as the administrators below have noted might be construed to be an endorsement of Wikipedia's views.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 03:31, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Sprutt

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• The request is actionable. Contrary to Sprutt's statement, the edit at [66] concerned the topic of the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict if only because it removed the following text: "Support for separatism. The financial assistance does not only go to Armenian Republic, but also to non-recognized Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. As it is considered integral part of Azerbaijan Republic by all international law and organizations, Armenian Fund is claimed to finance separatism." This violates the topic ban imposed at [67]. I suggest a two-week enforcement block. Also, although this isn't relevant to this particular request, the wording of the topic ban ("the topic of Armenia-Azerbaijan and related ethnic conflicts") doesn't make clear whether the ban also extends to anything related to each of the two countries, or only to their conflict(s). I suggest rephrasing it as "anything related to Armenia, Azerbaijan or related ethnic conflicts" to make clear that we mean the former.  Sandstein  16:14, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree with the submitter that this violates Sprutt's topic ban. @Sandstein, I suggest not widening the ban, because Sprutt has also made edits about Armenian architecture. This seems harmless, and it fits with advice we have given in the past. We sometimes remind topic-banned editors that non-conflict-related edits are OK. Note that the material Sprutt reverted was recently added by User:Konullu and it exhibits obvious lack of neutrality. Konullu was warned for AA following an ANI report in 2012. I suggest that we formally warn Konullu for his non-neutral edit at Armenia Fund. I will notify him that he's been mentioned here. Some of his material may be able to stay but he is accepting all criticism at face value and putting it in Wikipedia's voice. EdJohnston (talk) 16:51, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Konullu: Here is the actual wording of the 'Criticism' paragraph that you added: "Despite their willingness to lend a helping hand, numerous contributors tend to think twice before making a donation, due to multiple reports and evidence of corruption linked to the activities of the Fund." Do you think Wikipedia should be warning our readers not to contribute to the Armenia Fund? Should we be announcing in Wikipedia's voice that the Fund is corrupt? This needs to be given in indirect speech and cited to the source. If there is any rebuttal, we should include that also. Cherry-picking negative material about the Armenia Fund is obviously non-neutral. EdJohnston (talk) 18:47, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No objection to a warning of Konullu on that basis.  Sandstein  20:52, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I concur that this is actionable and that the edits violate the topic ban. The Armenian Fund article's content, as mentioned above, is clearly within the realm of the injunction on Sprutt's editing. Unlike Ed though, I also support Sandstein's proposed rewording of the topic ban. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 17:38, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• I'm not sure what exactly justifies for an extension of the topic ban, can someone explain this? -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 21:05, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Not necessarily an extension, but rather a clarification. The wording "the topic of Armenia-Azerbaijan", which is unfortunately also found in the ArbCom decision, is unclear as to whether it refers to only the relationship between these two countries, or also to everything related to either country alone. I've assumed that the latter is what was originally meant, but if not we should clarify the scope in the former sense. I'll ask the admin who imposed the topic ban to comment.  Sandstein  21:14, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• This edit violated the topic ban, but the primary issue last time was with Sprutt's tendentious behavior. Any extension of a topic ban should be tailored to addressed that if possible. If you think you can find a better way to do it, by all means please feel free to change the wording of the ban.

  Agree with Ed that Konullu ought to be warned or sanctioned. NW (Talk) 21:22, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks. Tha'ts not exactly what I was asking regarding the intended scope of the ban, but never mind, that's probably better asked as an ArbCom clarification request.  Sandstein  13:15, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oh, I'm sorry. Let me clarify: I believe the topic ban ought to cover anything relating to the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, whether that covers the actions that the governments have taken with respect to each other or individual citizens doing things that antagonize citizens of the other country. The scope of the ban attempted to be narrowly tailored enough to cover where Sprutt was being most tendentious. If it needs to be expanded to cover Armenia or Azerbaijan as a whole to stop that kind of behavior, that is one option, but I'm not seeing it as particularly necessary. His edits clearly related to antagonism between peoples of the two countries and as such violated the topic ban as it currently stands. NW (Talk) 17:42, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks, that clarifies it for me. If there are no objections, I'll close this with a two-week block for Sprutt, with a clarification that the topic ban applies to anything relating to the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and a warning to Konullu to observe WP:NPOV closely when editing in this topic area.  Sandstein  18:09, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

--Aleksd (talk) 20:13, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

bg:user:Алиса Селезньова

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

removal of administration rights of the user

The user is administrator of Bulgarian Wikipedia who together with bg:user:Мико were continiously harrasing me on religious basis (I am Buddhist), threaten me with the words "Its your time" usually in both English and Bulgarian used as part of the fraze "time to die", reverted my edits in Buddhism to imply irony in issues and harassed my talk page with finally blocking me from Bulgarian Wikipedia. In Bugarian Wikipedia there isn't any type of arbitration and generally administrators act like little 'dictators' and in the case of Bulgarian Wikipedia they are pro-socialist, Orthodox Christians who largelly don't believe in diversity and multiculturalism, and use irony, reverts and deletion to suppress information that doesn't fit what they like. I also made a complain about the situation prior to the ban here, in the English Wikipedia, User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 126#Religious intolerance in Bulgarian Wikipedia

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. [68] - using '' to imply irony on Buddhist term, 29 January 2013

1. [69] - the user says "it's Your time", 21:01 13 February 2013
2. [70] - deletion by the user of my statement that I don't want to discuss any more since they were starting a quarrel (my talk page), 21:59 13 February 2013
3. [71] - deletion of the statement again (my talk page), 23:26 13 February 2013
4. [72] - 3rd deletion, 12:14 14 February 2013

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

There was no warngs because of the administrator status of the users, only pleads:

1. Warned on 17:04, 25 January 2013 by Aleksd (talk · contribs) - asked to stop with irony

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Users and administrators bg:user:Алиса Селезньова and bg:user:Мико where continuously stepping over my edits in Buddhism making fun and irony of both the religion and my religious believes (not only in Metta article but there mainly), with making fun of me too and trying to make me nervous to have a reason to 'get rid of me' in Bulgarian Wikipedia and stop me from contributing in the area of Buddhism. I admit that they were successful in this but also I think the lack of arbitration and diversity among administrators in Bulgarian Wikipedia should be intervened with a type of arbitration.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

I am unable to notify the user since I am blocked there.

bg:user:Алиса Селезньова

I am sorry, I don't see anything personal in what I have reported. I hope Martin Luther King was not told in his time not to disturb with 'personal problems' the community? If there is not existing rule of such type of resolution I am sure you could have found other and better (kinder) type of explaining it. Namaste. --Aleksd (talk) 00:56, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]