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Angela. 21:35, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

p.s. you can sign your name using three tildes, like ~~~. If you use four, you can add a datestamp too.

Apology for the edit conflict on Community Ag.! Hope I didn't mess you up. I didn't know you were still working on it. -Will try later. Pollinator 05:24, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC) (Ain't this fun!)

I added the reference (Werther eau de cologne) on the bestseller talk page, as requested. Feel free to move it into the article proper if you feel it merits a note. Asav 13:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to thank you for your constructive criticism on this article. It didn't make it as a FAC, but will take some time to rework it and resubmit it again sometime in the future. Have added some comments to your reply if you are interested. Cheers! Captmondo 21:45, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

At Organic food you wrote "marketing products like frozen entress and other convenience foods". Did you mean frozen starters or frozen main coarses? Entree means starter in non-US English, main course in US English. Reply not required - just clarify the article as you see fit, when or if you see fit. Jamesday 13:28, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hi, I like you additions to the plant breeding, another issue surrounding the decline in nutritional value of food the degradation of soil over that period(I'll look for some refs) which is more to do with farming techniques than breeding. Also could you include the details of the reference that you cited in the reference section of the article. Thanks--nixie 22:15, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I just noticed you created the article on Albert Howard, and generally do work on organic food articles - we need more of these, thanks for your contributions. Keep on keeping on! JesseW 20:07, 17 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately Layla will disappear before Cool most certainly does. I now see that "Cool", besides a specific national anthem is the only featured article on a song that does not relate to The Beatles somehow. So that's why you don't think "Cool" deserves to be in the list — because its impact won't last as long, because Gwen Stefani is not a worldwide icon, and because things in the music industry worked differently back then. Well let me tell you that there's a reason it made it to its status: because it is a well-written, descriptive, informative and COMPREHENSIVE article about the song. End of discussion.

Oh, and no offense intended. Just attempting to make my point clear. --Hollow Wilerding 01:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi: I have expanded the Douglas Corrigan with the intent of addressing your comments at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Douglas Corrigan/archive1. Does it yet merit your support? —Theo (Talk) 20:22, 22 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please take a look at Talk:Bjørn Lomborg (sect. 32.3) and give your view on the issue? I'm trying to remove a lengthy quote that's ruining the article. Thanks. Sir Paul 22:03, 23 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just thought you should know. - Ta bu shi da yu 10:15, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Ive been trying to improve on the Céline Dion article, incorporating many of your suggestions. Could you take a look (please) and maybe offer advice and comments on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Céline Dion? Thanks in advance. Oran e (t) (c) (e-mail) 04:29, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I just caught your edit to Ido (talk · history · watch). You did a good job fixing up the spelling and grammar, but your browser also stripped out all non-ASCII characters from the page. This meant that all unusual letters, including IPA and interwiki links to Russian, Chinese and Japanese equivalent articles, were relaced with question marks. This means any page you edit with your current browser settings will be affected. Please could you do something about it! --Gareth Hughes 18:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't notice that heading issue on the sunset table... I appreciate you pointing it out :) Ta bu shi da yu 05:33, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

But I do not know where from. I remember seeing your name somewhere in articles where I have made contributions. I just came accross your name again in Raul's page where we discussed the quality of FA articles. I agree 100% with what you said. Cheers. --Anagnorisis 01:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I've addressed all your specific and actionable objection points. Would you mind providing other examples? Thank you. Saravask 01:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• I've thoroughly copyedited the article. I'd appreciate a prompt response from you. Thank you again. Saravask 02:19, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't mean to be rude. I really appreciate some comments after such a long period of no critique. It is just that the FAC is getting close on to seven days old. This is about the time that Raul654 designates FAs. Again, I appreciate your input whichever way this turns out. Thanks again. Saravask 03:06, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I just needed to suggest that, if you are checking the text, you should reload your web browser every few minutes. This is because I am continuing to de-uglify the prose (even while you read). I don't want you to spend valuable time commenting on old revisions of the text. I've had such problems too. Thanks. Regards, Saravask 03:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We just finished the first round copyediting. It is now safe for you to examine. Thanks. Saravask 04:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again. I'd like to reiterate what you've stated your concerns are about the Chavez FAC:

1. Awkward writing.

I addressed all the specific examples you provided. I also did an extensive copyedit to search out and revise all long sentences, sentences with awkward clause/phrase order, awkward syntax, awkward use of dashes, commas, and semicolons. Please notify me if you spot significant remaining examples.

1. Excessive use of modifiers.

I remedied all examples you gave. In addition, I searched out mawkish or inappropriately toned modifiers. I toned down a significant number of phrases and words. I believe I got them all.

1. Lack of clear distinction between recollections/facts in the "Childhood" section's Harvard citations.

I believe I've remedied this full stop. Please let me know if my solution may be improved upon still further.

1. Revision of lead for clarity/background.

I've worked to address this. Again, please notify me if any aspects of the lead remain unsatisfactory.

• I appreciate the work you've put into your comments. I am looking forward to your additional input. Thank you. Saravask 05:55, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please, have you had a chance to examine the text yet? Thanks in advance. Saravask 14:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This diff might help you in reviewing your vote. I have addressed all of your concerns, and I thus cannot find any other instances in the article where the points of objection still stand. Please raise the issue if other improvements (that I have missed) are needed. Thanks. Saravask 17:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We have commented your objections to blues FAC. We would appreciate some feedback. Thanks. Vb 12:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I was wondering if you would like to participate in my classic rock survey. I'm trying to find the most like classic rock song. There is more information on my user page. Hope you participate! RENTASTRAWBERRY ^{FOR LET?} röck 02:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to apogolize for giving you the third degree in The West Wing FAC. Your points about production, distribution, and marketing are very valid. I've just had a tough time with the FAC and was upset to see another objector. I'm sorry again, and I'm looking up the information you requested as we speak! I hope that with your help we will achieve FA status and set the bar at a new level for television FAs! -Scm83x 05:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We have added several new bits of information to the article concerning the points you were worried about. I hope that you will look them over and, finding them sufficient, will vote support on The West Wing FAC. Thank you so much! -Scm83x 18:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just thought I'd let you know! Revamped article: Delrina, with more info, clarifying some points and highlighting the Berkley Systems Inc. v Delrina case, and (hopefully) thoroughly copyedited. A valued your comments last time so wanted to give you another chance to look it over. Here's its listing on the FAC page. Cheers! Captmondo 18:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is probably a bother, but could you please take another look at the Céline Dion article. Ive taken the comments at the last FA and have tried to address them: Ive found many print sources, about 4 Books, more authoritative reviews:New york Times, Billboard.com, Los Angeles Times etc. Ive addressed her music, changes in sounds/genres, motivation etc. at the end of each sub-section, and Ive also added a "Image and Celebrity status" section at the bottom. Ive sent it to peer review for two days, but no reply. Comments would be appreciated. Thanks. Oran e (t) (c) (e-mail) 02:24, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello there. I've mentioned this on the respective FAC page for Delrina, but I believe I have addressed the issues that have been pointed by other users with regard to footnotes and references.

I appreciate your comments with regard citing the Hugo Chávez article as a reference for footnotes. It was odd to get a reference to an article that was not corporate in nature with a very different referencing system. As it turns out, a more direct and relevant reference probably would have been the Acorn Computers article, which was deemed to be of Feature Article quality in the past.

I guess my only real complaint about the FAC process in general is that it has become the de facto peer review, as people tend not to scrutinize articles in detail until they reach this area. Also, the inconsistent quality of comments -- such as the fellow who was tentatively objecting to the corporate template being there, which was a truly helpful and useful addition that came out of the peer review process. And yet if it stands, the article "falls".

And I realize that I blowing off steam at this point, but if this candidate article fails, I do not plan on resubmitting it as a possible FAC in the future. I think I spent less time justifying the finer points of my Masters thesis way back when! ;-)

Cheers! Captmondo 04:07, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You're first name isn't Toby, is it? Jasmol 05:33, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, no. Ce n'est pas moi... --Tsavage 04:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've responded to your questions about the article. Johnleemk | Talk 10:30, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi—I'm very pleased to see your detailed objections to the renomination of this article; well done. Since I gave this one a drubbing first time around, I wanted to hold off. Really, doesn't Raul see that he's embarrassing himself? Apart from that, there's a potential conflict of interest involved; I think the process would be better if the judge distanced himself from it. (I might mention this on the page.)

I'm hoping that more WPians with critical/editing skills will hang around the FAC room to raise the standards of FAC and prevent signals being sent to all contributors that low standards are good enough (that's what happens when poor FA nominations succeed). Tony 03:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Tony. Sorry I didn't reply earlier (see my explanation in the note to HasBeen, below; I'm writing my way upwards). Thanks for the support. You know what they say about sticking one's head above the crowd, "Take care you don't get it shot off." So, support is well-taken when you're feeling the breeze in your hair... ;)

And, yes, the FAC Director position is just too murky and unsettling. The current argument seems to be that the miracle of WP permits a "safe" suspension of disbelief and acceptance that a person can actually act like "just another editor" in some cases, while also being solely responsible for FA and TFA, and an AbCom member. That's bizarre, and the guidelines for FA->TFA are, as far as I've found, non-existent. Not to get too Classic Rock here, but it could seem like shades of, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."...?

After two months, I'm having a bit of trouble justifying to myself my time on FAC, given the results. Mainly, it's the FA->TFA connection that gets me... Oh, well. Being a squeaky wheel can be thankless, but it has its own rewards...hopefully, once in a while. Later on...! --Tsavage 18:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good Morning. I support the arguments you made in the CDion FA nomination, and would like to lend my support to any review procedure that you might become involved in over this issue. My name is apparently mud at the moment for AfDing a bunch of pop song entries that I considered to be blatant commercial advertising after finding Cool (Song) on page one, but it isn’t deterring me from commenting legitimately in FACs (yet…) I have brought this to the pump, but got heavily slapped down. Any suggestions? --HasBeen 08:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I didn't reply earlier. I had this idea that I'd stay out of..."backchannel" stuff relating to FAC, all the lobbying and whatnot that drives this place (not that that's anything but normal). In any case, I replied to Ta bu shi da yu below (Celine Dion), so, so much for that (but definitely no email, IM, IRC, ;)...

If you're interested, take a look at Wikipedia:Tomorrow's featured article/Proposal for improving TFA selection guidelines. It may address mutual concerns. I'd be interested in your comments... Later... --Tsavage 18:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hate to wake you up so early but... we hobbits have to get things done ya know ... what do you mean when you say "good morning"... do you mean to say it's a "good morning" or do you wish me a "good morning"? --hydnjo talk 03:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. Unfortunately(?), I'm not Tom. You guys do look mighty happy... With me, it's at times one or the other, sometimes both (I recently did a quiz that said I'm a "post-modernist", so maybe that explains it)... Nice to meet you! :) --Tsavage 17:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Heya Tsavage :-) I was wondering what we should do to get that Celine Dion article up to scratch. I guess what I'm asking is: at a bare minimum, what information about her music do we need to include in the article? Incidently, I have no axe to grind about this article (I'm not actually a fan), but I feel it would be a pity if User:Journalist, who spent a fair amount of effort on the article, wasn't made precisely aware of precisely what should be included. I think your suggestion has a great deal of merit, btw. That's why I'm going straight to the horses mouth!

I'm hoping we can all work together to get this up to scratch. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Ta bu shi da yu. You do seem quite "reasonable and level-headed" (famous last words? ;), so I'll reply. (I've been trying to keep out of "backchannel" stuff in relation to FAC, but I guess it's inevitable. I will, therefore, now also reply to Tony and HasBeen, above.)

Well, my objection about lack of a music section in Celine Dion still seems quite clear to me on the actionability scale. I don't have a precise format or template for such a section in mind, as in part, I imagine the information would somewhat vary by the artist (style of music, length of career, and so forth). I'd have to read it to strike. My objection expresses the general interpretation of FA criteria that, when looking up a singer in a thoroughly modern encyclopedia that is "comprehensive", one should be able to easily locate basic information about that subject's "tools of the trade". Here, that would include stuff like vocal range, training, stylistic quirks, evolution of singing voice over the years,... The examples, for Billie Holliday and The Edge, which were included, further clarify the point (perhaps a combination of both of those would be somewhat of a guideline). As it stands now, the CD article offers a biographical background, and an annotated discography (that relies mainly on pop media critics). That alone does not even address the "why" of her notability on any sort of technical level. It's like writing an article about a certain jet engine by only noting where it was built, who designed it, and what planes it was attached to, with no discussion of its design, its capabilities, its place in the world of jet engines... IOW, there is a "technical" side to most things, and that should be addressed as a matter of course. This, as I've noted, is simply what I consider a reasonable interpretation of the "great article" criteria for this topic. It can be dismissed procedurally, if the FAC Director finds it unreasonable...

As a side note, I'm curious as to how "helping Journalist" fits into your view of FAC. I'm all for being supportive, I work on actionability even when I think something should be quite clear as stated, and I have made changes to articles in FAC during their candidacy,. Still, I think there has to be a separation between FAC and generally being supportive and encouraging. Presumably, the FAC Director has left CD hanging so long so that things can maybe get worked out, but that is one person's interpretation of a much broader guideline. The FA criteria simply say the objections should be actionable, not that they're supposed to be fixed during the (one week) candidacy. That could equally be interpreted as a vetting mechanism to ensure valid objections, but not to encourage rewriting of articles on FAC. (I also noted this in my CD comments on FAC.) If FAC is to be not a sham, votes and opinions should be, for one, on a consistent (the same) version of an article, not one that has undergone dozens or hundreds of rushed edits, under pressure, serving (and often, byu) many editors, in a short period of time. That doesn't seem like a good way to promote quality, or even an efficient process... It's like asking you to sign a petition, with the caveat that the petition might be "reworded" above your signature. Being too "supportive" here therefore can (and, IMO, quite often does) become counterproductive.

A lot of this has, for me, to do with the FA->TFA connection. Holding FAs to the rigorous standards they claim is particularly important to me because these articles appear to many, many people on the front page. They should really be the best, not simply "almost there". At this stage of WP, with millions of dollars and probably the same in hours of labor going into it, we should be able to do better... Perhaps you'd like to glance at my fledgling TFA guideline proposal. (Well, there, I've crossed my line...) Sorry if I'm (at times :) a little WORDY: no passion, no interest, and I guess that's how I express it... --Tsavage 18:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I normally delete items listed as speedies on sight, and the actual content obviously wasn't worth keeping. However, in this case, although it's not an alternative spelling, Leibig is a plausible mispelling - I have a chem degree, and I have to think which way round the "i" and "e" are. The article creator obviously had the same problem, so in this case I thought it was worth keeping a redirect.

I certainly don't think it was wrong to list it, and if you want to do so again, I won't interfere, jimfbleak 06:52, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User:Gadget850 has started User talk:Gadget850/BSA article improvements as a step toward improving the BSA section of Wikipedia. Please visit this page and participate if you are interested or cross yourself out of the "Interested Wikipedians" if you are not interested. Thank you. Rlevse 18:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I know it's frustrating that your objections sometimes aren't taken seriously; it's happened to me too. But don't forget that your efforts have caused significant improvement in many different articles, and for that, Wikipedia is better off. Keep up the good work! --Spangineer (háblame) 18:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's nice to get some comments on it... I'm not at all experienced in "advertising" a project on wiki. (Maybe I advertise here? Wikipedia:WikiProject_Horticulture_and_Gardening). I've historically been more of a web forum person, though I'm trying to get some friends from that end of the 'net to chip in! SB Johnny 16:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I know that you are frustrated with the passing of the article, as it seemed as if your objects were blatantly overlooked. I really dont know what to say...sorry maybe? Despite my "heatedness" over the matter, I actually respected your objection and how you have taken a sense of duty to the FAC process. I saw your question on the FAC director's page, and Im also curious about the answer.

However, my assertion that the article is "there" still stands, and I'm a bit happy that rough concensus was taken to promote the article. As much as there are some good voters, FAC nowadays are infiltrated with editors who are ignorant of manual of style and many other conventions and policies; people who just want to get a few edits in and be included in something. Many of them often take a "my way or the high way" attitude to their votes and suggestions, failing to arrive at compromises. People have different tastes, and as the policy states, there is no such thing as a perfect article. An article can always be improved, and "Celine Dion" will, but at its present state, it meets the FA criteria, and I believe thats why it was promoted. Im quite happy, as I was actually frustrated with the double standard people seemed to be taking to the article; it's on par with many other featured articles of the same nature. Sorry to be flooding you talk page like this. I have to go, but I will be on today at about 5-6 pm ET in case you want to continue. Oran e (t) (c) (e) 15:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've replied to your comment on my talk page. Sorry fo the delay, but I just got back from a 12-day trip. Raul654 04:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please review you opposition for Cheers! I just went through Toasting Cheers, the best source of information for the show, and added a nice Production section including information on the crew. Please let me know what else you want! Staxringold 14:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for striking out your object. What comments (specifically) do you feel like I still need to add/work on (hopefully to garner your support). :) Staxringold 02:32, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Right, I think that's all of those points. This is what has happened to the article. Regards, --Celestianpower ^háblame 21:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just wanted to explain my comments yesterday on the FAC: I did not want to get drawn into a long drawn out point-counterpoint - you made my point, I made mine, and there was not much more to add. I did not write the article, although I have copyedited it a couple of times, and I am not bothered very much about its subject matter. However, as I have said, I do think it is good enough, and I see an undercurrent of objections which I find hard to understand. Assuming you accept that the article could be featured, it would be interesting to know what you think should be added or changed. Compare Spoo for example.

I also wanted to say that I do not agree with Celestianpower's latest comments: I have assumed all the way through - and it is entirely apparent to me from your other contributions to FAC - that you are motivated by the best of intentions: to make our articles as good as possible. As I have said before, your standards may well be higher than mine. That is not a bad thing; however, I see the standards set by FAC reviewers rising relentlessly, so articles that would have been featured 6 months or a year ago are dismissed without a second thought, but articles that were featured then stick around; and, all the time, less than one article in a thousand is featured, but many of the other 999 are "good" articles. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:20, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm afraid that I stand by everything I've said so far. You have gone to 2 FACs currently and just totally ruined them. If I wasn't Admin Gen of Esperanza I'd both block you and call you all of the swear words under the Sun. You're objections are either lies or unactionable. You don't have the right to call the article "Mediocre, even crappy" when a teacher of English has given it the OK. He's much more qualified to object on these grounds as you are. If making me really upset and angry was your aim, you've certainly acheived it. --Celestianpower ^háblame 17:37, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your help on the Projectplace article. Much better than the first entry I made that was just describing the service. --Zpeed 07:37, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Someone has added an intro to Chariot racing, could you take a look at the article and see if it still merits deletion? Andrew Levine 22:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just some advice: It might help if you avoid extended dialogue on Featured Article Candidates. I find it is better to get straight to the point, as people are less likely to read comments which go into the authors childhood, or habits of other editors, and so on. Thanks, --Colle||Talk-- 22:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I've added a section on the applications of invasion strategy in terms of fourth generation warfare. (I've also cleaned up the fourth generation warfare article, and created new articles for the first,second, and third generations, since I don't like my articles linking to crappy stuff when I can help it).

I'm also planning to add the 2003 invasion of Iraq to the table, but I wanted to make sure that's in line with your suggestions before I do that. Some people initially objected to its inclusion, but they're not complaining anymore so, as they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I've also responded to your other questions on the fac comment page.

Thanks for your feedback, and I hope the changes will help you decide to support the article. If you have any other suggestions, please feel free to let me know and I'll do my best to address them. Happy editing! Kafziel 01:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we're still plugging along... I don't know how much I have left in me, but I've made some more changes to the article and addressed each of your comments on the fac comment page. In addition to your suggestions, I've also updated the footnotes to the new <ref> style and changed the table of invasion examples to prose format.

Thanks again for your feedback. I hope my changes are enough to at least cover your objections, if not garner your support. Kafziel 05:44, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'd like to invite you to participate in the Wikipedia:Featured Music Project by signing up on the status page. What you'd do is sign up for one (or more) of eight categories, such as the discography or lead section. No more than once a month, you'd be given an article which is getting close to being ready for WP:FAC, and is only deficient in a few categories. You'd do what you can in your section (and, of course, anything else you like). If a couple of people specialize in each category, we should be able to take some concrete steps towards improvement on a wide range of articles. In addition, you can sign up as a "shepherd" to take articles that meet all the criteria through a peer review and (hopefully) successful candidacy. Tuf-Kat 04:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comment on hormesis; I've no objection to reinstating the last deleted section, is there another way of flagging that they need references? I didn't mean to be non-constructive here, but I thought that it was important to keep this article in the scientific mainstream Gleng 23:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've been noting your sniping at me for some time - what exactly is your role here - do you write pages? - advise on pages? or merely advise as you see fit on assorted subjects on which you have experience? I'm just curious. Giano | talk 21:36, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To the best of my knowledge, I'm not sniping at you. That's not my intention. I only just recognize your username, from, I guess, FAC. Other than that, what? Thinking about it, I remember a minor exchange in one of the FAC reviews, something about hornets... Other than that, and my comment about your FARC noms, I can't recall any other exchange?

What do I do here? My contributions. You probably have to go back past the last 1,000 or more entries to get beyond my recent FAC stuff, Bulbasaur alone takes up a lot... What else? As indicated at the top of this page, I joined in Dec. 2003. Until last November, I paid no attention to all things WP, other than article editing. Then, after reading a TFA that I thought was not so good at all, I followed the links back to FAC, and that's been for the most part, my winter on WP, with side trips into FARC, stable versions discussion, AfD, and the related like... Oh, and I contribute mainly in the winter, because I farm the rest of the time... So, what's on your mind? --Tsavage 22:19, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Irresistibly butting in here, sorry about that. Tsavage, you seem surprised that anybody would take it personally to be called petulant, ridiculous, and silly. Might you have gotten into some counterproductive rhetorical habits? Because that way of leaping out at a stranger from the undergrowth, teeth and nails flashing, and then retracting the aggression with smilies and admissions of harshness, reminds me strongly of the way you responded to me on WP:FAC a while back.[1] (And this is where you scramble out of the wrong tree with egg on your face.:-)) Do you have a particular purpose with the practice, or is it just, well, habit? You do realize it's likely to piss people off...? Thickness of skin varies, no doubt, but I think most people dislike being greeted with a mouthful of hasty epithets. Bishonen | ノート 02:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Bishonen: Is this, like, a pastime, tracking imagined slights and posting nasty comments to people's Talk pages? You've plucked a bit of dialog out of one discussion, which had its own context, attached it to another comment about a series of FARC noms so irregular they were removed and their subpages deleted, and come up with a "practice"? "...leaping out of the undergrowth, nails and teeth flashing"—what is that about? "Admissions of harsness"???!! Saying, "look, if that sounded harsh, it wasn't meant to be," is not an admission of harshness. I didn't "retract" a thing... Why are you here? To scold me? To initiate an attitude readjustment? My comment wasn't to Giano, it was about the series of protest nominations in FARC, that sucked me in (I read the first two before I figured out what was going on). If I criticize your writing, is that automatically a personal attack on you? Every objection in FAC is then a personal attack on the nominator? Such a thing as a "petulant comment" does not exist? I looked up Giano's comment to me in Beethoven's Fifth FAC II—"Obviously it's a hornet's nest here so I'll leave you in it to sting away." Now THAT's personal... And why are you citing stuff I wrote from other pages? What is the issue? If you think I've insulted someone, just say it in plain English, don't insult me in turn: "this is where you scramble out of the wrong tree with egg on your face"? And if you're gonna make cautionary comments like, "we also need to be careful about making FAC nominators jump through so many hoops they tire of taking their articles through FAC at all" in the FAC discussion page, in the midst of a bizarre Bulbasaur FAC II where I'm basically getting accused for weeks on end of doing exactly that, and I'm not sure who's who and how the whole thing "really" works, PLEASE EXPLAIN YOURSELF MORE CLEARLY... (A smiley is far too blunt an instrument, I never had much use for them in the first place...) --Tsavage 04:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Sorry, I have no interest in Bulbasaur - as one of my children grows out of that sort of thing sadly another grows into into it - but that is the extent of my knowledge of the subject so I won't comment on the value of your works there. As I recall the FAC you refer to was a complete hornet's nest with much stinging - so me jumping out to leave others still there and stinging away was directed at no-one in general. When riled I can be a very angry hornet indeed, and when I wish to insult believe me I can do better than that - trust me.

Your sniping, the specific incident I refer to is here [2] The adjectives you use are particularly untrue. Matthew Brettingham's FARC was/is (I count no chickens yet!) going well, so I had no reason to be in you words "entirely petulant and ridiculous" and ".....a cheap form of re-validation ". I was making what I and many others feel is a valid statement. If Matthew brettingham was worthy of an FARC then so were the other however many pages in similar, that's not petulance but stating a fact. A fact that seems to rather indigestible to many on this encyclopedia. Confusion seems to be all around us take for instance this comment here [3] made since our altercation. The comment has been admirably refuted but the confusion remains.

You attitude above to Bishonen is sad, she merely points out to you that perhaps on occasions your choice of word are less than judicious, and yet you seem to be attacking her for having the temerity to say it. Someone less charitable than myself may think that is a demonstration of petulance and cheap rhetoric. Bishonen is not just one of the most fair and busy admins on the site, but a rarity a valued contributing editor and creator of articles as well. You would do well to remember that. Giano | talk 18:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

[Very kind, Giano.] Aha, tunnel vision. You were in the midst of the FAC of something called Bulbasaur, therefore we were all "in the midst of a bizzarre Bulbasaur FAC", and if I'm going to comment on something in a totally different nomination, then I need to check out all the FAC discussions to see if you're being accused of something somewhere and [shout] EXPLAIN MYSELF CLEARLY so it doesn't accidentally sound like I'm talking about you...? OK, that's obviously gonna make it a lot more cumbersome to comment on talk FAC, but you know what? I actually don't mind, because I'm so pleased to unexpectedly learn what your beef was that time. You thought I was sneakily referring to you. I'm sorry it sounded like it. I wasn't. For the record, I had no idea you were being accused of things in the Bulbasaur FAC. I wasn't following that discussion. Bishonen | ノート 19:39, 5 March 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Bishonen: This is like our own private review of...something or other. I suppose I'm pleased that you've found a better sense of It. You could also reconsider my comment that you conveniently linked to above, I did say the same thing. I didn't particularly think you were sneakily referring to me; I did vigorously seek clarification of your statement. I didn't launch into a long explanatory spiel like this one, I trusted that the sense of it would get through fine with "I'm about as new in FAC as anyone, and I know it's a tricky thing finding one's bearings." It wasn't code; it did take into account the extended "Hollaback Girl" review, my first gruelling long one, where you were an active participant and obviously an old hand in FAC and elsewhere around WP, and would therefore realize that things on the FAC page are picked up by reviewers (wasn't that the point of the whole thread? Wasn't it read and replied to by a reviewer who commented directly before me in reply to you, and in part influenced my comment: "I definitely don't want to scare off anyone with mandatory PR. I'm a relative newbie to the FAC page."). It seems we're discussing for the sake of it, but that's OK. Clearly, I don't mind...rattling on. "Petulant" is a hot-button word, and Giano is offended seems to be the point. My intention wasn't to injure him, only to make a strong comment about a rather drastic FARC tactic that affected me, which is what I did. Tunnel vision? Why do you keep trying to...categorize and diagnose...? Finally, caps isn't SHOUTING in my book, it may still be an online convention, like in the old days ("please don't write in all caps, it's SHOUTING"), to me it's simply an emphasis alternative to boldface, a typographical flourish from my own zine past... I might use a smiley here if I still did, but I don't... --Tsavage 21:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very taken aback to find that you read my comments as "nasty" and insulting where I had no intention to offend. But that's the nature of the medium of text, as we all know. I honestly thought I was referring pleasantly enough to an old situation where I thought you aware of having levelled groundless accusations against me, and that you were a bit embarrassed about it. The reason I thought that was that to my ear you sounded embarrassed, and aware of being in the wrong tree, here. Incidentally I think you construct a false dichotomy between yourself as sensitive newbie who needs much consideration and wikilove, and me as calloused old hand who deserves neither. You've been on Wikipedia longer than I have, and on FAC pretty long now and fifty times more intensely than I ever was. I don't understand what you mean by the point of the whole thread: the whole thread was created by somebody saying Peer Review was compulsory, so how could people have the nerve to nominate on FAC without going through Peer Review first? That was the message I responded to, that was the message that interested me. It stopped me from nominating an article I'd just written. No, come to think of it, I do mind rattling on and accumulating misunderstandings. I'm done, bye. Bishonen | ノート 01:16, 6 March 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Yes, text can be inefficient. Bye. --Tsavage 02:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ahoy! There is an additional reason behind the deletion - in the event of a legitimate Farc, I do not want these as any kind of benchmark. Raul agreed with my decision as well. For the record though, as the text of each and every Farc was the same, I have undeleted one of them (here - oddly enough, the talk page had the same exact text as the Farc) . In my view, by the way, nothing you said on Farc Talk was necessarily innapropriate. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 02:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have been watching the FAC page for a couple of months and I have noticed that you are one of the best reviewers there. Your comments always illustrate that you have fully read the article and understand what is trying to be presented. More than anything I am impressed by your dedication to each FAC as you fully review and re-review the same article many times and constantly reply to the nominators to get the article to be good as it can possibly get. I am also impressed by your courage in diving right into those shall-we-say "pop culture" articles. My point here is to prod you into considering writing a How-to page on how to comprehensively review FACs (like User:Taxman/Featured article advice) to help other potential reviewers. --maclean25 07:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. Except that I didn't think they were expanding on your objection. I thought it was an IP address including vandalism which then I reverted the edit as established by Wikipedia:Vandalism. —Eternal Equinox | talk 00:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eternal Equinox has also been deleting my comments on the FA candidate page for this article. (As explained in my comments, I've intentionally disabled my WP account because I believe WP is fundamentally flawed.) --Bcrowell

Tsavage, if you have the time to, could you please resubmit your objections on Talk:We Belong Together? If this is a waste of time for you, then of course you don't need to comply as it is only a request. I'm going to attempt to compromise what you believe does not make the article featured status-worthy. Thanks! I've also posted this on Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. —Eternal Equinox | talk 00:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Ts, Just wanted to come make a couple little suggestions here. I agree with everything I have seen you post so far, and appreciate the help you gave me in the WBT FAC, but there are a couple lingering concerns with how brash you are in terms of comments. It rubs quite a few people the wrong way, and certainly doesn't help convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you. Could you perhaps use some softer language? I dont mean sugar coat, more the difference between "Hey you assholes!" and "Listen, you guys are being pricks." Anyway, feel free to yell at me or whatnot, but I thought I might help point it out. -M^ask 02:12, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, I was just building to a big exit... What I really think, though, is what I've said: FAC and FARC need more active management, less cage matches and unexplained decisions. More transparency... I've never been rude, and if I've become not so subtly sharper, that's an accurate reflection of my evolving opinion. If more editors actually participated in the "hotspots", individuals "like me" (outspoken?) wouldn't become the lighting rod for what problems with the process (or with individual articles) that many don't seem to want to get involved in. Anyhow, I won't be doing FACs, for a while, I'm not leaving in a huff, just other seasonal commitments. Happy enough if I was of some help in the process... Thanks for the note. (There's me being abrasive again. :) --Tsavage 03:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sharper? To me you're just the guy who likes to spit in my face. Have you thought about what it might be like on the receiving end? Bishonen | ノート 14:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Look, I'm not trying to torture you. In fact, I made a mistake in sticking around FAC for so long. I originally arrived there after reading an atrocious TFA, and wondering how it made it to the front page. I tested out the process, beginning with supports, for a couple of months, and then got caught up in it. I don't have the type of focussed commitment to WP that Raul654's Law #1-ers seem to have. I was quite happy editing the few pages I worked on for the two years previous. FAC is fine for what it is, but it IMO is certainly more of a loose game of "get a star" than any sort of serious attempt to use WP resources to truly find "the best". That's fine. I'm perfectly aware that I've become sharper in my statements, but hurting people has not been the goal. FAC is competitive, and really, adversarial in the way it is managed, and if one can't express things bluntly (which can be far from rudely), there's a problem. When I read things like Jkelly's "advice" (mentoring?) below, I'm only more convinced that FAC is not a forum into which I should channel my energies. I don't get any satisfaction from skimming an article, posting a vote with a few words, and then moving on. That to me has nothing to do with "best" of any sort. So, yes, you have made your point. --Tsavage 20:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

? Not following. Is that really a reply to me or are you thinking of somebody else? You've never spoken to me on FAC, or showed any interest in a nomination of mine. | ノート 23:09, 23 March 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Bishonen: I understand and respect what you're doing as an admin. I'm not sure exactly of the details, but I glanced at your transparency list and I have a reasonable idea. It takes all kinds of interests to make big collaborative, volunteer projects work, and this is a big 'un. If you're really bothered and can't fathom my comments, as bottom-line an explanation as I can muster:

I'm simply pushing for what I think is reasonable, well-considered improvement in FAC operation. I don't know if there are inherent limitations in the overall WP model (I tend not to like the "it's great (but it'll always remaina a hobby site)" view of the quality potential), and I do like the idea of channelling energies ("our" group drive) in positive directions, like, how good could at least some articles really get as the result of a process, and not just individual editing efforts. So, in FAC, I soon realized that I could either "keep my head down" when I saw that standards for some promotions were IMO shockingly low, or I could stick my head out. Why the latter? Not at all to satisfy myself in the sense of venting, but more to lead off doing some of the heavy lifting, set a bit of an example if you will, because tides of consensus change have to start somewhere. In the course of doing that, I've been blunt (not rude), and that by definition will involve individuals, because things don't just "happen" here, they're done by people, so pointed comments will focus on people through their actions. I've taken as much flak as anyone who feels I've been...abrasive. Look at this page! Things can be "fun and collegial" here and there, but the moving forward of WP is a somewhat adversarial process at critical points, in the sense of people arguing strongly held, often quite opposing opinions (though it of course should never be be...gladiatorial, or bullying). This doesn't have to be nasty, but in some cases, it will get sharp. "Nothing personal" is perhaps a cliche and annoying as such, but it comes from somewhere for a reason, it is not always a negative, and IMHO it really, truly does apply in a positive way here!

(And I'm not being RUDE. My EE comment was very much a part of the FAC point, and had nothing to do with any one user, I would have said the same thing about any user/admin in that situation. I always imagine a group of interested editors following the various threads, and I was simply making clear the distinction between the "FAC issue" and a user behavior issue. The "self-righteous" and "relish" too weren't personal, I recently sampled some RfC stuff, and there is a definitely such a tone in many, maybe it results from a little battle-fatigue, or from being essentially uncomfortable with wielding power and passing judgement over others, but there IS a...tone amongst many. That was that reference. It is a form of public speaking here, and we're all tryiing to actually communicate hopefully worthy points... ) (I hope this isn't me being both verbose and stubbornly pedantic again... :) --Tsavage 17:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I have to say, differences that we have and will have, I have come across people here who are far ruder. Some even make Tsavage sound like Barbara Cartland - one editor here only recently unwittingly likened another reviewer to a plague of mass murderers while extolling figure of speech; "other seasonal commitments" now there's a phrase to make the mind wander. March/April....seasonal....I shall be pondering all night long. Giano | talk 21:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Aha! I have it top dressing and cereals! Giano | talk 21:56, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. After reading your comment at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates, I thought that it might be worth mentioning a few things. The first is that, yes, something a little unusual is going on. The conversation there, and in the other pages it has spilled over into, is politely ignoring the fact that an awful lot of effort has been put into mentoring a young problem editor by a number of users, User:Bishonen among them. A detailed explanation of the entire history, or an ArbCom case to make everything "official", would likely be both embarassing to the user in question and counter-productive insofar as it would likely escalate a situation that has, in fact, shown some drastic improvement. Secondly, if you are concerned that you (or someone else) might wind up being temporarily banned from pages by admin fiat, the absolute best way to avoid such a thing happening is to avoid being disruptive for several months until everyone's patience has been exhausted. Finally, if you're noticing a number of editors suggesting that your commenting is coming across as more aggressive than you intend it to be, you may want to consider toning it down. The question of whether or not it "really is aggressive" should be a lot less interesting than the question "how do I work well with other editors in a fun, collegial project devoted to making great encyclopedia articles". Thanks for taking the time to consider the above. Jkelly 20:09, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's your view. I appreciate any helpful intent, but it isn't helpful. You say, observe the status quo, go along to get along. Any idiot can see that for themselves, that's life's standard rule. I'd rather consider a view like (copied from above): "I have been watching the FAC page for a couple of months and I have noticed that you are one of the best reviewers there. Your comments always illustrate that you have fully read the article and understand what is trying to be presented. More than anything I am impressed by your dedication to each FAC as you fully review and re-review the same article many times and constantly reply to the nominators to get the article to be good as it can possibly get. I am also impressed by your courage in diving right into those shall-we-say "pop culture" articles." Perceptions differ... --Tsavage 20:39, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do not understand your response, but I don't want to suggest that you are under any obligation to explain anything. Good luck with your editing. Jkelly 22:29, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hope the growing season goes well and that it's a relaxing time away from Wikipedia. Breaks are always nice; though I've never been able to stay away for more than a few weeks myself. Like I said before, you do great work, and aren't unwilling to push for higher standards. I'll do what I can while you're gone, but it won't be the same =). See you around! —Spangineer^[es] (háblame) 22:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hiya Tsavage, there's a discussion regarding the nature of FA here, any input is welcome BlueShirts 02:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"I sense a lot of self-righteousness and even relish in punishing people, which, whether they "deserve" it or not" from here [4] is actually not only rude to Bishonen, but very unjust. I'm sure you have the best intentions for Wikipedia, but so does Bishonen who spends a great deal of time oiling the cogs. It is therefore inevitable that she will come up against the mavericks more often than those who keep their heads down, consequently her appreciation and understanding and experience in dealing with these matters is greater than that of most other editors. This makes it very sad that you should perceive her actions in such a way, especially the crack "deserve it or not" in my opinion she is far too patient and forgiving of these people - far more so than I would be - I don't tolerate fools at all. I agree with the editor who praised your reviewing I too think you are thorough and don't doubt your dedication and sincerity - and when I don't agree with you I can generally see where you are coming from - that is why I think you could perhaps take the trouble or at to show others the same consideration, or at least give the benefit of the doubt.

I hope when you are tending your crops you will give these matters some thought. I hope you have a happy and successful summer (don't go organic or you will be poor for life) and when you return, as I hope you will, you understand that those who work hard for the project if not deserving of thanks are at least due a little respect. Regards Giano | talk 15:37, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you take the time to offer your input (and likely objections) to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mariah Carey! —Eternal Equinox | talk 19:45, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, last time you provided some helpful feedback on the FAC of Article 153 of the Constitution of Malaysia. A related article, Ketuanan Melayu, is currently on peer review. If you could go over it and see if there are any major problems barring featuring, that would be great. Feel free to be brutal -- this is peer review, not FAC. ;-) Thanks in advance, Johnleemk | Talk 19:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since you were also involved in the Bulbasaur FAC, you might be interested in Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Celestianpower. —Doug Bell ^{talk•contrib} 07:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was brought to my attention at my Request for bureaucratship that I hadn't apologised to you about the whole Bulbasaur incident. I now officially apologise for assuming bad faith on repeated occassions and being uncivil. I hope the whole incident can be put behind us once and for all. Esperanzial regards, --Celestianpower ^háblame 14:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Posted some more information on the discussion page of the orgnaic certification article, would like you to check it out

Hi, sorry to bug you, and feel free to ignore if you're not interested, but I found your comments on the recent Cape Horn FAC so helpful that I wondered if you would be interested in looking over the Sunday Times Golden Globe Race FAC. I feel that this is an interesting article; it currently has a couple of "support" votes, but seems to be suffering from a lack of interest. I'd much rather have it fail because of 100 specific objections than for simple lack of readers; so, if you have too much time on your hands ;-), I'd welcome any comments you might have, positive or negative. Cheers, — Johan the Ghost _seance 14:42, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where have you gone? Your comments on the FAC are missed. Raul654 21:58, 6 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I second that, as per the barnstar I put on your user page :) Haukur 22:03, 6 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I redirected one of your redirects, Processed food. I was reading the history to check if there was anything intersting, and I found you changed it to exactly the opposite. So I thought I should meet Tsavage, shake hands and offer drinks, and ask about it. I often hear processed foods in a negative light in my nutrition classes, and struggled to find the same kind of matching content in the previous article food preservation. I think the redirect is correct and with time I'll think of more content to add, like comparing to fresh fruits. Nastajus 02:12, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article has undergone a major rewrite and I was wondering if there are any comments you have before it is nominated at FAC (which will likely occur at the end of May)? —Eternal Equinox | talk 21:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am pretty sure this project will interest you. You are needed. Cheers! -- Paleorthid 07:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Tsavage, Thanks for your additions to this article. We need good editors. I wanted to see what you thought about my thoughts on your recent revision. You talked about organic certifications as those, "...which preclude most of the practices that characterize industrialized agriculture." I would argue that the major components of all agriculture are the anthropomorphic production of crops that inlcude the amelioration of germplasm to better suit human and environmental requirements. Next I would say tillage and (in most cases) irrigation of the planted ground are part of most practices. What do you think? --Agrofe 19:15, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi TS, the issue of whether factory farming should be called that or something else has arisen again, as well as whether there should be separate articles on factory farming, intensive farming, and industrial agriculture, and whether these are in fact separate phenomena, as some argue they are. We're making no headway, and as the issue has been brewing on and off for some time, I've filed an RfM. I didn't list you as a party because you've not taken part in the most recent round of hairpulling, but as you moved the page and commented not long ago, you may want to add yourself. Cheers, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Tsavage. Given your strong edit history, I was hoping you would take a look at a new task force we've established. Please consider taking a look (and of course we'd be really happy if you joined)! Benzocane 21:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are being recruited by the Environmental Record Task Force, a collaborative project committed to accurately and consistently representing the environmental impact of policymakers, corporations, and institutions throughout the encyclopedia. Join us!

Charles Ives has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. MrPrada 08:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Arable farming, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. II | (t - c) 12:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. The blues article is endangered to loose its featured status. Could you please help. Thanks. Vb (talk) 09:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please look over WP:ELNO to realise why these links aren't proper on Wikipedia. In particular, I'm referring to points the following points:

• 1 Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.
• 11 Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority (this exception is meant to be very limited; as a minimum standard, recognized authorities always meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for biographies).
• 13 Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article. A general site that has information about a variety of subjects should usually not be linked to from an article on a more specific subject. Similarly, a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked from an article about a general subject. If a section of a general website is devoted to the subject of the article, and meets the other criteria for linking, then that part of the site could be deep-linked.
• 14 Lists of links to manufacturers, suppliers or customers.

As per the above, the links in this article clearly don't meet our policy for external links, so I have yet again removed them. Don't reinsert them without a valid rationale as to why our policy should be circumvented in this instance. ThemFromSpace 19:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Garden sharing. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform several reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. When in dispute with another editor you should first try to discuss controversial changes to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If that proves unsuccessful you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. Please stop the disruption, otherwise you may be blocked from editing. ThemFromSpace 14:19, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Given the timestamp on your comment, I'm not sure what you're referring to. My editing work on the Garden sharing article is new copy. If you're so concerned with the content of that article, you should research the subject. --Tsavage (talk) 18:50, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Tsavage! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 1 of the articles that you created is tagged as an Unreferenced Biography of a Living Person. The biographies of living persons policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure verifiability, all biographies should be based on reliable sources. If you were to bring this article up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current 934 article backlog. Once the article is adequately referenced, please remove the {{unreferencedBLP}} tag. Here is the article:

1. Alex Kirby (journalist) - Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 23:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The article Finder-Spyder has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

non-notable fictional entity

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. TheLongTone (talk) 15:36, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I restarted Finder-Spyder, which was deleted in 2010. Your name is on the tag so I'm letting you know. --Tsavage (talk) 14:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I'll respectfully defer to your judgment on that and that of the wider community. Suggest you post neutrally worded notices to a few related WikiProject talk pages. — Cirt (talk) 19:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Hi Tsavage. You'll note that I removed your reworked 'technique' section within the Piano article. It's really a subtopic of piano performance-related articles such as Piano history and musical performance or Piano pedagogy. Alternately, perhaps the material from 'technique' could be worked into the existing History > 'History and musical performance' section, although I believe that even there it would burden the article with excess detail that would be better covered in Piano history and musical performance. Cheers —Waldhorn (talk) 04:52, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the heads up. I am following your comments and replying on Talk:Piano#Techniques section (the discussion is more useful and accessible there, I believe :). Cheers. --Tsavage (talk) 16:58, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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For football transfers, we generally don't make changes until a deal is announced by the involved club(s). As it is, the fee is set and Defoe passed his medical, but the transfer hasn't gone through yet, so "widely confirmed" isn't entirely true. It'll go through shortly, so we can edit it then. Mosmof (talk) 20:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mosmof: Yeah, no problem, then. I considered reverting, but decided not to as I don't regularly edit sports pages (other than via semi-protection editing), however, please read my explanation of the edit.

FYI, as a semi-protection editor, I found the page last night on hold with 10 pending changes, most or all relating to Sunderland (I checked some, no time at the time to fully investigate), and today added my Sunderland edit to accommodate the info to date. The considered wording in my edit was "widely confirmed in the sports media," which is a fully cited fact (cited sources include ESPN, TSN, CBC Sports,Toronto Star,The Guardian, and others). The general reporting in the media was "a source confirmed the deal" and "the swap has been completed."

As this information could be permanently included in the article, documenting the trade speculation and resolution, whether the trade ultimately went through or not, I felt it was not a "breaking news" or "news" entry.

I am always concerned and respond when I see an editor's work effort (in this case, my effort) summarily dismissed by deletion for no valid reason other than another editor's preference. While, I get the idea of listing trades only when announced by the clubs, to keep confusion and speculative edits down, if an editor makes a valid Wikipedia entry, i.e. not against policy, and also within guidelines, that edit should be respected and discussed BEFORE deletion. In any case, from here, I'll leave it to...you guys. :) --Tsavage (talk) 21:01, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your response. I don't think your edit was too problematic and you're right about "widely confirmed", but my issue was that how it could be interpreted. When I read it, I thought it meant media outlets had reported the deal as done and official, when it really meant that, as you say, sources confirmed the deal was ongoing. Maybe the edit should be something like the interested parties had agreed to the deal and it's pending? Mosmof (talk) 22:07, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mosmof: Thanks for the reply. I saw your edit: great! --Tsavage (talk) 22:17, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Tsavage, I can't speak for Jytdog, but it looked to me like his recent restoration of content on the Monsanto article was an accommodation to the concerns Gandydancer and I raised about the removal of the controversies section, that is, putting the legal issues and controversies both back in the article. I think it will be easier to move forward starting with the longer version, then breaking off content as discussed on the talk, and not addressing reorganization in-article until the less controversial content split is settled.Dialectric (talk) 10:57, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Dialectric, I haven't check timestamps, things seem to be moving so quickly... Did you see my Resetting this discussion addition on Monsanto Talk? Jytdog was acting extremely quickly, in the midst of ongoing disucssion. So I reverted as explained. Please see if that makes sense to you. Although I may seem committed to debate, I really hate it, all of this energy could go into article improvement. Hopefully, everyone is editing with good intentions, if so, it should be relatively easy to improve things quite a bit. --Tsavage (talk) 11:15, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Some of your comments on the Talk page make it seem like you are not familiar with Monsanto, but based on your contribs that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I tell my story of coming to learn about GMOs and Monsanto on my Talk page, if you haven't seen that already. And if you didn't see this piece in the NY Times, I recommend it. It is hard to find reliable information, and you have to throw out a lot of chaff. Even sources that often are great at exposing the truth of corruption, like Democracy Now, get facts dead wrong when it comes to GMOs. They completely missed the mark here and see this section on El Salvador in the Monsanto archives where TruthOut butchered a story. There is a lot of misinformation out there; WP cannot regurgitate misinformation. Jytdog (talk) 05:57, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jytdog Hahaha, your tone her sounds...civil enough, so I will speak with you. I'm not a Monsanto historian my any means, but I know a bit about the company, I find Monsanto interesting, beyond just their technology. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Regarding reliable information about anything, I'm generally skeptical about all sides and sources, everybody is spinning. I used to be quite familiar with the Schmeiser case, a few years ago I read the Appeals Court and Supreme Court decisions, and some reactions and commentaries. Not sure what problems you had with the stuff you linked - I didn't read 'em (I did skim DemocracyNow interview). My impression was that Percy made a willing poster boy for general anti-GMO activities, but in the case itself, it seems like he knowingly planted the seed. Basically, he discovered a few acres of largely volunteer roundup ready canola, however it got there, harvested it, had it processed, and used it to plant out a way larger area the next season, which is what they nailed him for. Many accounts never make that clear - guess it sounds better that Monsanto just polluted his fields, then took him to the cleaners, or maybe too complicated to fully explain. Also, the final judgement, without damages, was seen by some as hesitation of the Supreme Court to make policy on lifeform ownership - it chose to apply existing Industrial Age patent law to a biotech problem and wait for legislation to catch up. That's my very general impression of that whole thing. Is that what you wanted to know? :) --Tsavage (talk) 06:54, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Because you mentioned it, I took a look at Monsanto Canada Inc v Schmeiser and saw you removed the Publicity section because it was unsourced. It's better to try and source stuff rather than delete. I'll try to get around to that... --Tsavage (talk) 07:17, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am glad that you "get" the Schmeiser case; you will see that Democracy Now completely distorted it. While Schmeiser had an interesting point about farmers owning their harvest (and when I say "interesting" I really mean that - it has been to supreme court of multiple countries) in my view at the end of the day he is less-than-noble for letting people elide the fact that he intentionally planted the seed after he harvested it, which every supreme court so far has found is infringement. Those decisions are not Monsanto's - they are society's. WP is not here to right great wrongs; we show the world as it is.

So many people have crazy-goggles on when it comes to Monsanto. I am really proud of the work I have done on the Monsanto and GMO-related articles to remove distortion, and to build reliably sourced, accurate content. The state of those articles was really shameful before I started working on them. That work has been hard and ugly - I have been vilified more times than I can count by people who get their news from TruthOut. Democracy Now, and similar sources, and most times when allegations of "whitewashing", "obscuring", and "being sneaky" come, most times it is part of an ongoing campaign to turn the articles back to the shit state they were in before. That is some of the background for my reaction to some of the things you wrote. As to why I wrote here... my sense is that things were going south between us and I wanted to humanize myself to you, if that is still possible.

With regard to the publicity section, I am general a deletionist. While many people add great content and bear out Jimbo's trust that underlies this whole project, there is also so much bullshit in WP, and I spend way more time than I like just fixing that, than I do building content. Please feel free to rebuild that section, in NPOV fashion based on really reliable sources. In my view it was mostly COATRACK, unsourced/badly sourced and non-NPOV.

In any case, thanks for listening and talking back with me. I mean that.Jytdog (talk)

Jytdog: I hear you. It's really no problem. I've experienced and reacted to editor intensity as well, and I suppose in doing so, I've been the intensity for someone else. I'm pretty blunt, literal and persistent, but never rude (I hope not, I don't intend to be). Active editors who've taken ownership of particular issues and pages can tend to bully, and that can get drawn out and tiresome if you don't stick to the point. Often, you still don't "win," but at least you've made your best effort.

Ironically, I guess, given what you've said about Monsanto and crazy-goggled people, the Publicity section I mentioned that you deleted is kinda the stub to possibly addressing the pro-Schmeiser spin in a neutral way. From what I've gathered, Schmeiser is a politician, literally and by nature (far from a simple working class farmer), and took to his role as anti-GMO folk hero gladly, while in the case itself, it seemed as if he was just trying to pull a fast one on Monsanto (which is what the courts consistently found). It's hard to cover stuff like that neutrally and without it becoming original research, although it's fully part of the story. --Tsavage (talk) 18:19, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you get reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

I realize Mark Marathon had a few edits today too over at Monsanto Canada Inc v Schmeiser, but you currently have 4 revisions today, which also crossed the 3RR line. Best to avoid edit warring as much as possible rather than skirting or crossing the 3RR bright line.Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:27, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kingofaces43: I notice you haven't similarly tagged Mark Marathon, who has performed three direct reversions. You are apparently choosing to view my incremental edits as reversions, I was simply editing forward from his changes. If you examine the edits and the simultaneous Talk thread, you'll see that I went out of my way NOT to delete material that is clearly not RS and probably OR, as documented in the discussion. --Tsavage (talk) 00:08, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't tag Mark Marathon because you already warned them on the talk page. Incremental edits in this kind of situation can still be edit warring, so it's best to slow down and discuss first to reach a consensus version when you know your edits are contested. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:18, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kingofaces43: I only reverted twice. The rest were simple edits. Mark Marathon reverted three times, but I don't know if I feel like opening an edit war ticket on him. Perhaps you should consider doing so. --Tsavage (talk) 11:12, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you.

Please see the result of the complaint at WP:AN3#User:Tsavage reported by User:Mark Marathon (Result: Both warned). Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 15:47, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for creating Pincho Man, Tsavage!

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I could use a comment from you on this part of MOS:FILM on a proposal about release dates of films from specific countries that made them in year in film articles. BattleshipMan (talk) 01:15, 2 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thanks for the very helpful discussion on Scrambler therapy. You may be interested to know of a rather heated and tortuos, but related discussion, here.[5] Keep up the good work.__DrChrissy (talk) 13:49, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While I don't have a dog scrambling in Scrambler therapy, I just wanted to add another thanks for the questions you posed:

How is it that "experienced health topic editors" are allowed to synthesize summaries with statements like "no good evidence," or selectively highlight certain results because they are from types of studies that are considered higher quality, without explicit explanation? We remain anonymous editors, and verifiability has to take that into account, we have no special expertise when it comes to summarizing. And again, after more no direct addressing of the question: Do we recognize "experts" at Wikipedia who can essentially override core policy and guidelines? It seems what is being suggested is that, as a general encyclopedia reader (and editor), in cases where special technical knowledge is required that I don't possess, I should trust self-confirmed experts in that area to synthesize conclusions for me (at least, in cases where no secondary review source is there to do that)? Is that not what "no good evidence" is, a Wikipedia editor's "expert" summary of specialized medical data?

Perhaps the answers have not been forthcoming because the possibility of WP:NOR exists. Support groups are also a growing concern. WP identifies some of that activity as WP:Tag team but when it involves groups large enough to sway consensus, then what? Does it become WP:Soapbox? I'm having a bit of trouble deciding the best way to identify such activity. We all know it exists or there wouldn't be PAGs addressing it. I'm thinking perhaps WP has grown big enough that new PAGs need to be implemented to prevent mob mentality from taking it over by storm. Atsme☯^Consult 15:52, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Having been a recent recipient of "bad dog" behaviour, I feel so strongly that this needs to addressed. I was absolutely staggered at the speed, volume (and perhaps most importantly) voracity of a group of editors attacking me, simply for raising a potential NPOV issue. It would be amazing to see what the response would have been if my ANI had been raised against lower profile editors. I have just suffered a major bruising by editors that just wanted to beat the crap out of me, rather than address the problem or indicate there might be other avenues of raising my concern. I feel one area editors might benefit is being directed to the most appropriate dispute page. This might help them avoid the assault I feel I have just received. Tsavage, I have found some problems with the 2 reviews over at Scrambler therapy. One of these is that they both cite the same article ....but with different authors! So much for the elite quality of PUBMED articles!__DrChrissy (talk) 16:54, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]