/2007

Removal of KiB for disambiguation was discussed.

The argument goes something like this:

• KB is "ambiguous". Why? Because manufacturers sometimes use it is the decimal sense.
• The letters "KiB" can be used by manufacturers in the decimal sense in exactly the same way as KB has been. Therefore KiB is also ambiguous.
• KiB is claimed to be not ambiguous because it is defined by a "standards organisation".
• KB is defined by the JEDEC (a standards organisation) in the binary sense and therefore not ambiguous.

Conclusion: The only completely non-ambiguous disambiguation is expressing the exact number of bytes. Fnagaton 12:25, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find the precise text to which you refer, but if you tell me it was discussed I believe you. However, what I meant by "discussed" in my edit summary was "discussed and agreed". You can expect changes to the KB vs KiB text to be controversial, so I think the precise wording should be discussed first at WT:MOSNUM. Thunderbird2 (talk) 12:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The point being why disambiguate with a unit like KiB or MiB which can be ambiguous. Which is why the discussion then got around to expressing the numbers of bytes in base two or base ten. Fnagaton 11:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We both agree that disambiguation using explicit decimal or binary powers is a good thing. Where we differ is whether disambiguation using explicit binary definitions is equally good (my opinion) or not (your opinion). Thunderbird2 (talk) 11:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then why do you want to disambiguate using units which can be ambiguous? Fnagaton 11:46, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't accept that the kibibyte is ambiguous. Thunderbird2 (talk) 12:20, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why? Fnagaton 12:25, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because I am aware of only one definition. Thunderbird2 (talk) 12:56, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Definition where? Fnagaton 13:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The definition introduced by the IEC (standard 60027-2, third edition, p121) and adopted by IEEE (Std. 260.1-2004, p12). Thunderbird2 (talk) 13:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So just because it's defined by your preferred "standards organisation" it isn't in your view ambiguous? Fnagaton 13:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t understand your point. All I am saying that a kibibyte is defined as 1,024 bytes, because I have never seen it defined any other way. It is you who are claiming the ambiguity, so the onus is on you to show there is a second definition. Thunderbird2 (talk) 14:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I showed the potential for ambiguity above "The letters "KiB" can be used by manufacturers...". The JEDEC defines kilo as 1024 so because it is defined by a standards organisation it is not ambiguous, as you put it. So either you have to accept that KiB has the potential to be ambiguous or you have to accept that kilobyte is not ambiguous. If you accept the former then then you cannot use it for disambiguation. If you accept the latter then kilobyte does not need disambiguation. Fnagaton 14:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By that logic, the metre is an ambiguous unit because someone somewhere might use the word to mean yard. In other words, it's not sufficient to claim that it might happen - you need to show that it does happen. Thunderbird2 (talk) 14:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's not the same as what I'm saying because the metre is defined by a standard and is mostly correctly used by the vast majority. If the real world consensus for using kibibyte was of a similar strength to that using metre then your point would be valid, but it's not. Kibibyte (or KiB) being used in the decimal sense does happen in the real world just because you have not seen it happen does not mean it doesn't happen and also kibibyte is used by less than 1% of the real world. So actually real world consensus is against using kibibyte and because it can be incorrectly used you therefore have to accept that it is ambiguous. Fnagaton 14:52, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your argument seems to read: “The kibibyte is not in widespread use. Therefore it is ambiguous.” That simply doesn’t follow. It is you who claims the kibibyte is ambiguous. The onus is on you to prove it. Frequency of use is irrelevant.

I guess it would be different if you were talking about the potential to acquire ambiguity. If, by widespread incorrect use of the term, it eventually becomes ambiguous (as happened with the calorie), then I will agree with you. Not before. Thunderbird2 (talk) 16:46, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No you are incorrect because my argument does not read “The kibibyte is not in widespread use. Therefore it is ambiguous.”. My argument is as I've already said that in the real world KiB/MiB/GiB is used in the decimal sense, for example media that has been incorrectly labeled to use the neologisms without updating the actual numbers, and they are not commonly used prefixes. It is you who claimed you've not seen the other use but you cannot then claim that means it doesn't exist when it actually does exist. The "widespread incorrect use of the term" is fallacious because you know full well that the IEC prefixes are not in widespread use to begin with. Are you seriously trying to tell me you've never seen even one place where an IEC prefix is equated with a decimal base ten value? Fnagaton 18:34, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am. Does that surprise you? Use of the kibibyte and its cousins is rare, and when they are used it is usually by a specialist who has made a deliberate choice to avoid ambiguity. That combination is likely to make incorrect use very rare indeed. Your point will become more valid once (if?) these units are used by non-specialists. Time will tell. Thunderbird2 (talk) 18:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Even specialists make mistakes. Note the bit which says "1 KiB = 1000 bytes and 1 MiB = 1000000 bytes". ;) Fnagaton 20:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Amusing link (lol). Now I must reply "I have seen one example" but it doesn't alter my view that such incorrect usage is rare. Thunderbird2 (talk) 06:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excerpt from the linked mail: "The MiB (and its derivatives) was invented by hard drive manufacturers in a very lame attempt to make their drives capacity look bigger,". This guy is confused and it's easy to prove him wrong. It's not surprising though that people with that kind of fanatic view would sabotage or boycott it - even subconsciously. People are rarely good at things they hate. Fail causes hate and hate causes fail. It's a vicious cycle. --217.87.122.179 (talk) 21:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes he is certainly confused, and was also soon corrected [1]. Still, we all make mistakes - and hopefully he learnt from his. Thunderbird2 (talk) 21:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1 start bit + 8 data bits + 1 stop bit == 10 bits per byte.

Thus a 56 kbit/second modem == 56000/10 bit per byte == 5600 bytes per second (after the start and stop bits are stripped). ---- Theaveng (talk) 18:00, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Theaveng. Thanks for taking the trouble to explain this. I see you've also included a footnote in the article. I've learnt something today :) Thunderbird2 (talk) 18:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Theaveng - this is wrong. 56k modems use a variant of HDLC framing (see V.42bis), which groups hundred(s) of bits together into a single frame, thus achieve an overhead of only 5% and not 20% as you mention. even for compressed / random data. the overhead you mention exists between the modem and the host computer, if they are using an asyncronous serial port, and thus the host speed is usually set to the highest possible speed (115200 or more). i corrected the article. 217.132.220.219 (talk) 20:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wanted to give you a heads up that I’ve transplanted the most important parts from my talk page to here at Talk:MOSNUM. Hope to see you there. Greg L (my talk) 20:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

T-bird, it looks like the voting at Talk:MOSNUM is going well enough that it’s logical to wonder how one actually implements the basic desire. It appears from Jimp’s posts that numeric values with more than 12 digits (rare but possible) won’t work with a template. Also, he appears to be expert only in templates and it appears that {delimitnum} will require a parser function (magic word). Those are apparently written by “developers” (the programmers who make Wikipedia’s magic all possible). Do you know how we go forward? Is there someone at MOSNUM who tends to such matters and sees to it that “developer issues” are kicked up the ladder and addressed? Greg L (my talk) 22:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Greg. Yes, you've done a fine job and the consensus has shifted in your favour. Persuading Tony is especially valuable because I think he knows how to contact the developers. If I were you I would ask him. Thunderbird2 (talk) 22:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Will do. Thanks. Greg L (my talk) 22:52, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• T-bird, I contacted Random832 yesterday (request here). Things have rapidly progressed since that posting. Within eight hours, he had written up the Talk:MOSNUM {{delimitnum}} proposal and presented it to a developer via bugzilla:13025. My question to you is whether and when and how to notify the others that further debate is not required and the proposal is moving forward to development. Would it be premature to post such a notice now? Things seem to be going smoothly so I don’t see the point of kicking a sleeping dragon. I’m not a regular contributor to MOSNUM and don’t know 1) what is expected of me (or someone else?) under these circumstances, and 2) what is the wise thing to do at this juncture. P.S. I do know that the proposal’s current (unarchived) location is being used as a reference source during the developer’s efforts. So if the proposal is marked as “resolved,” it would be helpful if it wasn’t archived until the developer is finished. Greg L (my talk) 06:11, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I also asked Random832 this same question. Greg L (my talk) 05:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Awe… never mind. Random832 answered my question first and said ‘do it.’ So I posted the notice of going to development here. It ain’t over ’till it’s over though. I’m curious as to how long it takes for these things (parser functions) to be made. Greg L (my talk) 06:11, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• • Good luck with the parser development. And thanks for keeping me posted. Thunderbird2 (talk) 07:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The FORMAL chain is as follows. Sound Pressure is in Pascal. Symbol Pa

Take 20 times the base 10 log and you get Sound Pressure level (Para 3.3 in IEC 62672). It is expressed in decibel (dB) and the symbol is L_p.

Now, frequency weight it (A, B, C, D or Z) and you get Sound Level. However, in IEC 61672 to avoid confusion, because it is exponentially integrated we called it "time-weighted sound level" (para 3.8) to differentiate it from the linear integral of time-average sound level. Symbol L_AT(t) but it is usually just called L_eq or L_Aeq(t)

In earlier standards sound pressure level was correctly specified but then some said "usually called sound level"; hence for all practical purposes "sound level" and "sound pressure level" are used interchangeably although strictly speaking they are different.

The chain for the linear integral is:-

Sound pressure in Pascal

sound exposure, the time integral of the time-varying square of frequency-weighted sound pressure in Pascal-squared-time. Symbol E_A, units either Pa²hr or Pa²hr (para 3.12)

time-average sound level20 times the base 10 log integrated over the whole period. (para 3.11)

The main confusion people have with the linear integral is they think of it as a re-integration of the exponential integration of sound level - as given by the dc output of a sound level meter - and therefore ascribe a time constant to it; indeed some German laws even say "Fast Leq" or "Slow Leq". This is simply a mis-understanding of the maths - or "math" as Americans quaintly say.

All these are scalar quantities with the 'dimension' of pressure, but Sound Intensity is a vector quantity. (It has direction as well.)

24malbec09 (talk) 11:24, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello 24malbec09, thanks for the note.

I agree, and would summarise as: Sound level (SL) and sound pressure level (SPL) are different quantities that are sometimes (incorrectly) used synonymously. My feeling is that the difference between SL and SPL should be explained in the article. Thunderbird2 (talk) 15:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just wanted to make you aware that I made a post here on Talk:MOSNUM regarding the new {{delimitnum}} template. See you there. Greg L (my talk) 22:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry T-bird. If I had read the goings-on better at Talk:DEC 3000 AXP and understood your position on the matter before I started typing, I would have just stayed out of the fray. I figured out your position after I had a head of steam going on my typing and so went ahead anyway. I hope you understand (why I posted anyway, as well as my position on that matter). Cheers. Greg L (my talk) 22:37, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, no worries - you're entitled to your opinion and anyway I agree with what you wrote. In other words I see no conflict between the choice of the most appropriate nomenclature (say KB, MB, GB) and the need to define that nomenclature. I will be happy with any outcome that permits an unambiguous definition of these terms, on that or any other page. What did annoy me though was Fnagaton's exploitation of your comment as if it supports his case. I've just been reading his beloved JEDEC standard and it makes interesting reading. Keep a watch on Binary prefix for details :D Thunderbird2 (talk) 22:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is against Wikipedia policy to use your talk page to misrepresent another editor. The fact is that the units you prefer do not have consensus for use, so do not keep on pushing for them to be used. If you are really interested in reducing what you think is ambiguity rather than pushing for certain units to be used then disambiguate using the exact number of bytes with power notation, like it says in MOSNUM. By the way, Greg's comment does support my case because it is basically the same as my position on this topic, i.e. use the most appropriate nomenclature which is to be found in real world sources relevant to the topic. Fnagaton 08:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I think Fnagaton might have demanded for a retraction because I lead him to an erroneous conclusion by stating “No one like’s to have another editor wade in and change someone’s work without so much as a “hello” on a talk page.” I didn’t immediately realize the distinction between “no consensus" and “no discussion.” No worries then. I’m looking forward to a solution that makes sense and that everyone can abide by and feel comfortable with. Greg L (my talk) 00:25, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Oh, I see now. I didn't understand what you meant by it at the time, but it seemed that you were trying to help, so I just moved on. Don't let it bother you. If the debate gets too hot we always have the "real world" to escape to. That's the beauty of Wikipedia :D Thunderbird2 (talk) 07:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

T-Bird, is this what you were hoping to see? Greg L (talk) 00:53, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I like that. See you there. Thunderbird2 (talk) 05:40, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Woo-hoo! Greg L (talk) 06:02, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Thunderbird2,

I just wanted to ask whether you'd be willing to put the second survey on hold for a few days (temporarily deleting if you think appropriate)? My instincts are telling me that there's a chance that some approximation of a consensus might develop, if given the chance, but I don't think it can if we try to move on too quickly. My rationale isn't particularly compelling, I must admit, but it never hurts to ask! Jakew (talk) 20:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I've done what you asked. I'm curious how you think it might help though. Still, I'm happy to wait & see. Thunderbird2 (talk) 20:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh dear. It's taken a life of it's own now. (Take a look at the edit history). I don't think there's any harm done - the questions were intended to explore for compromise. Shall we just watch how it develops? Thunderbird2 (talk) 20:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah well, such is the wonderful world of Wikipedia. I agree: no real harm done. Jakew (talk) 20:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please keep an eye on Bondwell. As the edit history proves, the original authors used KiB until User:Fnagaton converted them to KB. I reverted his edit and fixed the wrong case of the 'k'. Fnagaton promptly reverted my edits with his usual "rvv". This was clearly not vandalism. I would have talked to him directly but his talk page is semi-protected which makes a lot of sense because he would have removed my comment claiming either vandalism or harassment. --217.87.83.146 (talk) 21:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are wrong, I am not the one who is edit warring, you are. I reverted your change and have issued you with a 3RR warning for your four edit warring reverts and I've given you a chance to show you respect the rules by allowing you the chance to undo your edit. My talk page is semi-protected because an anonymous IP user from your ISP who has a habit of editing on the topic of binary prefixes vandalised my talk page multiple times in the past. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] etc. Fnagaton 22:58, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fnagaton, just apologize kindly and I'll ignore your behaviour this time. --217.87.83.146 (talk) 23:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The user 217.87.83.146 has been blocked from editing for a period of 31 hours. It's clear who has been revert warring here. Fnagaton 00:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

T-bird, here is the first version you supported, right after I had revised it to address your concerns and you had made a few tweaks of your own. Please compare that to the current version. I don’t see much difference of any significance in the portion that directy addresses the IEC prefixes. What is it you would like to see changed to meet your approval? As I was proofing this post, I just now noticed the above posts. Is that horseshit what is driving you crazy at the moment? Greg L (talk) 01:42, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Greg, thanks for taking the trouble to drop by. The differences may all be subtle ones. I’m not sure because I find it hard to keep track of the latest version. The point about the uno is that by putting it alongside the IEC prefix you are tarring both with the same brush. In other words, the wording (last time I checked) gives the impression that the MiB is an equally pointless unit. To gain my support you need to make clear that the MiB does have a valuable role to play. I will be more specific about other concerns next time I visit MOSNUM.

The discussion on my Talk page does not bother me at all - if anything it amuses me that it attracts so much interest :-) Rather, my concern at MOSNUM is (mainly) about the frequency with which changes are made to the main page. I support the principle of WP:BRD, but for it to work you need to give consensus a chance during the R and D parts. It is the frequency of changes that are making this difficult. Like I said, it’s not my opinion that matters, but the consensus of a group. It’s not just about the green box either. The frequency of the changes makes it difficult for editors to monitor changes to other parts they are interested in. Picking out the one edit that interests them is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

You did a good job at Mac Pro, and I admire the effort and energy you put into your writing. There are times when the energy turns into passion. There's nothing wrong with that per se, but the passion comes across sometimes as confrontation. I guess you see it as the natural cut and thrust of lively debating, but not everyone sees it that way: On at least one occasion you have Jimp's subtle diplomacy to thank for avoiding an escalation.

Finally, the sheer size of the discussion thread at Talk can sometimes be a practical problem. I sometimes can’t load the page at all (which explains some of my quieter periods), and sometimes I can’t find the part that I want to edit because it’s too deeply hidden. There is a bot that is supposed to keep things neat and tidy by archiving threads older than 15 days, but if a single thread keeps growing and growing, the bot cannot accomplish its objective.

I hope this helps. Thunderbird2 (talk) 12:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• The quick pace of edits is due to the large number of editors who are involved in this. The large number of editors is by design: It’s there on MOSNUM to attract a wide audience. So I don’t think there is anything we can do about a rapid pace change given that at least twelve editors have been active on this. However, we can do something to make it clearer what is the version being discussed. There will now only be one place for the “current” version: the one on MOSNUM. Go take a look at it. Is it something that you would vote for now (after Tony1’s edits)? Link to Follow current literature

  Greg L (talk) 18:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I removed the bit about the uno. May I count on a Support if I press to a vote? Greg L (talk) 18:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It certainly reads better without the uno, thanks. Regarding the remaining points, not yet spelled out (but related to promotion of non-SI units) I think it's better to address the details at MOSNUM rather than here, because it is a subject which others may have strong views on. I will make my views known there, but I need time to compose them first. Thunderbird2 (talk) 19:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I replied further here. Thunderbird2 (talk) 21:07, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Thunderbird2! I've read your comments on Talk:Bondwell. Maybe you could look at this: User_talk:TimTomTom. This Fnagaton guy accused me of an "edit war" right away when he was the only one reverting and messing with my recent edits. The behavior of this guy are quite dubious, apparently his friend has nothing better to do than reverting edits on his behalf just after Fnagaton asked him to do so. Isn't he just trying to circumvent this so called "three revert rule"? --TimTomTom (talk) 14:15, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He did not ask me to do anything. DavidPaulHamilton (talk) 14:41, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You probably understand English well enough to realize that you're not telling the truth. Fnagaton wrote "If another editor comes along and puts the KB back again will you accept that edit?" [12] and then he informs you about someone reverting your edits: [13]. In reality, you have not really edited anything at all, you were just reverting edits. You're also acting like a sub-ordinate of Fnagaton. --TimTomTom (talk) 14:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So he did not ask me to do anything and you are being uncivil. You are a new account making the same edits as the blocked user who also left messages on this talk page.DavidPaulHamilton (talk) 15:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Everything you write is a lie. The truth is, you're either Fnagaton or someone acting on his behalf. Your incompetence shows. --TimTomTom (talk) 15:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've reported DavidPaulHamilton as a possible sockpuppet of Fnagaton. See Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Fnagaton — Omegatron (talk) 22:45, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are being uncivil because you have no valid counter and that means your post is wrong.DavidPaulHamilton (talk) 00:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To make these changes, I hope these make the prefixes used "unambiguous" enough? Personally I don't think it is ambiguous to use KB/MB/GB in this article because it does state plainly enough in the article text how most of the numbers are worked out using simple arithmatic before the prefixes are used. Fnagaton 00:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You should report Fnagaton and his friends everytime they're edit warring and make sure you get some people to support your report. Otherwise they seem to have a white vest in front of clueless admins. --Multiplexor (talk) 18:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]