Talk page: User talk:StillStanding-247/RfC

RfC draft: User:StillStanding-247/RfC

Are you interested in getting this off the ground? Viriditas (talk) 20:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am willing to do my part, for the best interests of Wikipedia. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 20:39, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is it OK if I start it in your user space first? When we are finished, we can move it to WikiProject Conservatism. Viriditas (talk) 20:46, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 20:46, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just keep in mind, we want to steer clear of attacking personalities and editors, and just talk about the policies and guidelines. Obviously, user behavior will be part of that, but try not to personalize the disputes. This could take several weeks to put together, so please stay patient. Viriditas (talk) 20:49, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree. I believe the focus should be on a) selective invitation of editors with a known history of "countering liberal bias", b) the pattern of inviting these editors to focus on a particular article, with the foreseeable consequence of vote-stacking, and c) the pattern of voting as a bloc on RfC's and straw polls. That's the core issue. There are side issues that are a bit more personal, in terms of the pattern of intimidation of apparently liberal-leaning editors, but we shouldn't get overly distracted by this. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 20:56, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arbcom has previously ruled on the collective behavior of blocs of editors and improper coordination. Some examples include: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change, and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list. Relevant policies and guidelines in this regard according to case precedent are WP:CANVASS, WP:BATTLE, WP:AGF WP:3RR, WP:CONSENSUS, and WP:5. Viriditas (talk) 21:07, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the Macedonia case, the particularly relevant part is "Collective behavior of blocs of editors". StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 21:22, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See also Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Conservatism and identify the good and bad arguments. Are there any problems that were pointed out in that MfD that are still a problem today? How has the community addressed this problems? What's worked and what hasn't? Also see this failed request for arbitration for historical purposes. Viriditas (talk) 21:36, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the Eastern European ruling, the keys appear to be: Canvassing, Not a battleground, Gaming the system, Meatpuppetry, Presumption of coordination and perhaps Off-wiki communication. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 22:17, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think we really need to stick to hard numbers. They will be tough to find, but that's the only way the RFC will be successful. How many RfC's, 3RR reports, blocks and bans, page protections, etc. can be attributed to the project? Is it true that this project is mostly engaged in promoting POV and edit warring, or are they actively improving articles? Or, is it just one or two members who are improving articles while the rest of fighting battles? These numbers are important. Also, how many WQA/AN/ANI's? What was average outcome? Any related arbcom cases? In other words, using statistics, can you show that the project has been a positive or a negative to Wikipedia? Viriditas (talk) 22:37, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since what we're doing here amounts to testing a hypothesis, we should use a scientific approach. I suggest we start with the membership rolls and figure out who the most active editors are. Inactive or rarely active editors, no matter how biased, do not have much harmful effect, so this allows us to narrow our focus. The next question is whether these active editors fairly support support conservative bias and each other. This is most quantifiable in straw polls and RfC's. We should filter out irrelevant outliers, such as an active, liberal-leaning member who only edits articles about botany.

Just to get things on the record, I believe we need to politely ask Lionelt to reveal any real-world COI. I would be shocked if he admitted to any, but we have to ask. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 22:46, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's interesting, but we have to take all of that and present it in the format of an RFC. What were are doing is asking for community input, but giving the community a brief summary of the evidence which will allow them to make the right decision. It will help if we present a list of possible outcomes that would fix the problem. If the community cannot make a decision, then we take it to arbcom. Keep in mind, without really good evidence, this will go nowhere. Viriditas (talk) 22:49, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If we don't feel we're able to put together a clear case, we shouldn't file it. I think that what we ask for will depends entirely on what we can prove. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 22:52, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an example of a relevant poll: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Paul_Ryan&oldid=508364671#Nobel_prize-winning_economist. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 23:06, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It turns out that Lionelt has a manifesto on User:StillStanding-247/countering liberal bias, which I'm making a backup copy of, since it's flagged for deletion. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 23:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This whole canard of combating "liberal bias" has pulled the curtain back just a bit on the wizard behind the control panel. What we are really seeing is that WikiProject Conservatism is an outright lobbying group focused primarily on promoting political candidates and religious ideology. They are using the cover of article improvement to hide this blatant POV pushing and their concern with "liberal bias" remains entirely unfounded. Ask these editors for examples of such bias and they might point you to one or two examples from five years ago, but we've got millions of articles–surely if there was a liberal bias we would be able to see it? In fact, "liberal bias" is a euphemism for any type of content that a fringe group of paleo-conservatives wishing to take the world back to the 14th century don't like. However, the encyclopedia, by it's very nature, must be a product of liberal bias, because it does not rely on religion or tradition to promote its subject matter. Therefore, WikiProject Conservatism has, as its primary objective, the destruction of the concept of an encyclopedia, not just the removal of liberal bias. And you can look at Consevapedia to see how great an accomplishment they were able to create. That site is so bad, the average reader can't tell if it is a deliberate parody or not. When informed that Conservapedia is a real site written by real editors who believe what they are writing about, most people still can't believe it. We're not dealing with rational people, and you must always remember that. Viriditas (talk) 03:47, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

With that said, I'm leaning towards the religious lobbying group hypothesis. Catholic Republicans operating in the United States. Without naming any editors, we saw this exact same behavior with the Tea Party movement and related articles. It might be instructive to review those disputes on the noticeboards and to look for any similarities. I have a feeling we will find what we are looking for. Viriditas (talk) 06:34, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When I saw Tea Party movement, I laughed, then cried, then ran away. Dumb as I am, I'm not dumb enough to edit that.

I was trying to explain this to John, but the whole notion of "liberal bias" is essentially conservative bias. At this time, the right wing is very, very far to the right, to the point where it's not just a difference of opinion or an incompatible set of values, it's simply out of touch with reality. Evolution? Don't want it. Climate stability? Doesn't matter. Truth? Not as important as winning.

Snark aside, it's not that reality has a liberal bias, it's that extremism is nuts. Perhaps in a different world, the extremists in America would be left wing, but in this one, that's just not how it is.

So, yes, a manifesto urging conservatives to "fix liberal bias" and offering tricks of the trade isn't the loyal opposition, it's treason. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 07:07, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The thing that fascinates me them most is that these people who claim to be fighting anti-Christian and anti-American bias are in fact, as anti-Christian and anti-American as you can get. How do you explain that kind of disconnect? If the Jesus of the NT returned at this moment he would be branded a liberal. And the founding of the US? Clearly, a leftist plot. You've probably been following some of the news stories that have come out in the last decade or so (and even recently) showing how certain leaders in the conservative moment have actively tried to rewrite Jesus as a conservative and the founders of the United States as fundamentalists. The scary thing is that with the loss of paper books, history will only be as real as the people who have access to the cloud servers. A despot could easily rewrite history and nobody would ever notice. Even with books, I suspect that this has already been done, several times in fact. Viriditas (talk) 07:17, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, let them symbolically have Jesus and America both. I'm concerned with the reality, which is not at all a matter of mere symbolism. And the reality comes down to money. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 07:19, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Money is the ultimate symbol, but it cannot deliver nor satisfy what people truly want in life. Hence, it is the ultimate tease. Viriditas (talk) 07:31, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Money is a placeholder for control of resources. If I told you I had a magic wand that could compel a person to follow me around all day, do my bidding, run errands and so on, you'd likely conclude that using it would be evil. But if I had the wealth of a Romney, I could hire someone for less money than I'd notice the loss of, and they'd be my personal assistant. That's what the real issue is. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 07:36, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, the real issue is that most people don't understand money or the financial system and the media has no vested interest in helping them make informed decisions about it. If they did, then the electorate would make better decisions. Mandatory voting would help. Viriditas (talk) 07:43, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of things would help, including campaign finance reform, electoral reform and better education. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 07:44, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• There is broad support for the existence of such a project, so we should not ask for deletion. Instead, we should ask for it to be re-chartered in such a way as to prevent it from being dominated by editors eager to "combat liberal bias", as they see it.
• A possible alternative is a WP:RFC/U aimed at the ringleaders, with the goal of putting less biased people in charge of the project.
• ArbCom requires "evidence of any attempt at prior dispute resolution". I think we've got some of that now.
• The vagueness and extreme scope of "conservatism" is seen as perhaps justifying a more focused project, like American Conservatism, but this would only be more partisan.
• Lionelt says it "improves conservatism-related articles". This is the key issue; it doesn't.
• User:Wikiwind asks, "I don't know what is the purpose of this project, except perhaps mass canvassing?" So this issue has come up before.
• About a year ago, it had about 55 members. That seems large.
• User:MastCell raised concerns about it being "a coordinating point for people whose edits advocate a conservative political and social agenda". He offers many supporting diffs. [1]
• I'll note that many of my edits are within the scope of that project, yet Lionelt has never invited me to join. However, I've seen him invite many of the people who keep reverting my changes. Selective membership seems to be the root cause of all evil.

There is no selective membership anyone can join at any time be simply going to (1) and adding their names to the list, invitations are given to those who might be interested in the project but might not know of it's existance any member or non-member (not just Lionelt) can give out an invitation which if you scroll do to the bottom of the page I just cited you can see under Template. Also Still-24, Lionelt probably never gave you an invitation since he probably thought it be a waist of an edit and I was not inclined to give an invitation either since I thought you would not be interested, which judging by this you clearly weren't. John D. Rockerduck (talk) 23:18, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused: if WP:C is a neutral, nonpartisan project then why wouldn't you think still would be interested in joining? He seems like a person really interested in the subject, afterall. Sorry if I'm misreading you, but it appears that you've implicitly stated that WP:C is a collaboration of conservative editors and therefore still wouldn't be interested in joining. Please correct me if I misinterpreted you. Sædon^talk 06:18, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wait a second. In this diff you claim that the point of WP:C is to eliminate liberal bias on Wikipedia. I think that answers my question. Sædon^talk 06:21, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And now you see why there's an RFC brewing. No project should be dedicated to violating WP:NPOV. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 06:23, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• "this project has become a club for civil POV pushing" - and not so civil.
• "Deletists are right that some articles have been tagged that shouldn't have been, but that is no reason at all to delete the entire WikiProject"
• TFD insightfully adds, "The major problem is that the project is primarily about American conservatism, yet American conservatism is not considered to be part of world conservatism."
• I see a pattern of hostile -- borderline uncivil personal attacks, really -- made by conservatives defending their project turf. I think it would be instructive to note them as they appear and keep a count, as it goes towards showing lack of neutrality.
• Roscelese calls it "the heir to the snow-deleted Conservative Notice Board" and supports/suggests ANI. Maybe we should ask her to contribute.

I would be interested in how many of its current members (out of those who were editing Wikipedia at the time, of course) were highly active on that noticeboard. That being said it has been six years, so I think it would only be weak evidence either way. Arc de Ciel (talk) 03:29, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Take a look at "cross-talk, not relevant to MfD" here.
• Here's an example of an editor politely refusing to join for the stated reason that they're not really anti-liberal: [2]. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 22:31, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I must take issue with the above point as I was the inviter, the invitee was under the impression project wiki conservatism was anti-liberal (no doubt from discussions like these) I belabored the point that we are not anti-liberal (in a lenghty comment) that we just want to obtain N-POV, after hearing this the invitee who the point was made clear to decided that they might join the project one day clearly retracing their initial impression, the above point takes a false impression that I painstakeingly corrected out of context and I would politely ask it be removed so it is unfair point John D. Rockerduck (talk) 22:52, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I promise to preserve the full context so this is not taken in isolation, but what the actual goal of the project is turns out to be what we're trying to determine. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 23:21, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Lionelt makes a point of self-identifying as a Democrat. I see no reason to disbelieve this, but also no contradiction between this and being a staunch conservative. See Blue Dog Democrats. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 22:35, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• The "Countering liberal bias" essay is an excellent source of insight into Lionelt's motives, avoiding undue synthesis, so to speak. [3]
• There is good reason to believe that they have an IRC channel for off-wiki organization.

There could be a contradiction though, your thinking of conservatism only through the prism of social conservatism one can be a social conservative yet still very liberal on other issues, for example the Pope Benedictus who supports social conservative policies but in all other areas is a liberal such as his support and the Catholic church's support for a single-payer healthcare system (coindcedentally Lionelt is a member of wikiproject catholiscism) and for example I'm am a Social conservative but economic liberal that fully supports making the rich pay their fair share yet identify with the Republican only because my opposition to abortion procuring the civil right of life to all is my number one issue and passion, in conclusion it is a faulty point at best John D. Rockerduck (talk) 23:07, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

John, what is the specific scope of WikiProject Conservatism? It doesn't have one, so there is no justification for the project. WikiProject Catholicism is very specific. Viriditas (talk) 23:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I posted this diff above but it's also topical here as I think he clearly states the purpose of WP:C in his estimation. Sædon^talk 06:23, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) There are legit justifications for this project as why it was voted overwhelmingly to be kept, one could reasonably try to argue that in some ways the project has done unlegitimate things (Which I would utterly disagree with and find no evidence of) also there is a scope and it is at least to me specific along with countless others so that is debatable Link John D. Rockerduck (talk) 23:30, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

John, in my experience, self-identified Catholics tend to be socially conservative (anti-gay, anti-woman, etc) but economically liberal (help the poor). While WikiProject Conservatism is named very, very broadly, it seems to be more focused on social conservatism than anything else, with a tendency to line up with the American Republican Party on most issues. It might as well be WikiProject Insert Republican Bias. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 23:23, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-women and anti-gay are unfair I'm a Catholic and neither of those things and I certaintly know many others in my expierence that do not fit that bill also of course they would tend line up with the Republican party since the republican party tends to line up with the conservative position John D. Rockerduck (talk) 23:30, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with John. In the US, I think half of all Catholics are socially liberal and fiscally conservative. StillStanding, are you confusing Catholics with Baptists? Viriditas (talk) 23:33, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's entirely fair. The Catholic Church considers homosexuality a sin, opposes same-sex marriage and has even endorsed conversion therapy. It formally considers women unequal to men by denying them the clergy, opposes almost all forms of birth control, including abortion (and even for rape victims), and endorses traditional gender roles (misogyny).

Now, to be fair, plenty of people are coincidentally Catholic but disagree with their church on these matters. Real Catholics use contraception at rates comparable to the general population. However, I spoke of self-identified Catholics, who are self-selected from among those who actually agree with their church on social issues. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 23:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I also disagree with that statement. Have you even followed the debate about the Catholic Church in the US? Self-identified Catholics don't agree with the Pope or Church doctrine in huge numbers. I don't think it is a coincidence. The problem with the Catholic Church is that it doesn't allow criticism or dialogue about what they consider doctrine. Such a position is incompatible with the modern world and is inherently undemocratic. And, many Catholics are calling for reform. Viriditas (talk) 23:43, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we disagree. In America, the official beliefs of the Catholic Church are not reliably reflected by typical Catholics. Still, while they may be a minority, there are still many Catholics who, along the lines of Santorum or Ryan, are loyal to the teachings of the church on social issues and tend to publicly identify as strong Catholic. Curiously, they aren't necessarily in line with the economic teachings, in that they don't typically support such things as strong safety nets to help the poor stop being poor. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 23:48, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not true Catholics don't deny women contraception because their women it's because Catholicism is preaches that sex is only for procreation also Andrew Cuomo self-identified catholic has said he is against same-sex marriage personally but legalized it based as he said on separation of church and state My position as well) also Ted Kennedy was personally against gay marriage, and the Catholic church does not engage in conversion therapy nor condones it (at least nowadays for sure) and homosexuals are perfectly welcomed in the church the church preaches that sodomy is a sin not justbeing a homosexual is a sin. You are grossly oversimplifieng my faith and it's teaching I am not debating this with you I was disscussing wiki project conservatism not your anti-Catholic views John D. Rockerduck (talk) 23:51, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

John, I'm not seeing anything in the Bible about contraception. Most of these doctrinal interpretations aren't supported by the sources. What the Catholic Church needs to do is get back to basics and stop promoting ideas that can't be found in their actual teachings. It is entirely irresponsible to encourage poor women who lack access to health care to go and have 10 babies, and the impact it is having on the world is demonstrable. Viriditas (talk) 23:56, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly it's catholic teaching it is not necessarily in the bible also many staunchly catholic countries are on the rise, Brazil for example I believe in and life my life according to the docterine and my life is great, and it does not encourage poor women to have ten babies that's untrue anyway wikipedia is not a forum stop this critic on Catholic faith, my faith since it's pointless since we were dicussing a wikiproject and I find it highly offensive John D. Rockerduck (talk) 00:01, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

John, I don't think you're denying that the church opposes birth control, just offering an excuse. It's not intentionally anti-woman, you say, it just coincidentally supports a policy that disproportionately hurts women.

Likewise, saying that the church is fine with homosexuality so long as nobody ever acts on their attraction is one of those fine points that gays (outside of the clergy, anyhow) have never found very convincing. Imagine if I made myself Pope of a gay church that claimed it had nothing against heterosexuality, but heterosexual sex was a sin; would you find that convincing? Also, I'm sorry to say that the support for conversion therapy is not purely historical.[4]

You're quite right that there are some Catholic politicians whose political views do not match the church's; that's pretty much my point about how the laity and clergy are out of touch with each other. But I'm still correct about people like Ryan and Santorum; their views do match the church, at least on social issues.

I'd like to point out that we're not even arguing over whether the church should be anti-gay and ant-woman. Rather, you cannot see that it already is, so you treat my summary as biased. Now apply this to editing Wikipedia. If you can't even recognize your own bias and instead see what's neutral as liberally biased, think of what that says about your edits. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 00:03, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm am not debating Catholic teaching with you why are we doing this is it for an article (no) WP is not a forum and you sir are starting to engage in personal attacks like calling my editing bias this is offensive and pointless and demonstrating your anti-catholic views speaks more of your own editing than mine since you have such an axe to grind and if we continue this unfair critic of my religion and my editing then I will report this as uncivilityJohn D. Rockerduck (talk) 00:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The key here is that I'm not expressing anti-Catholic views. Rather, I'm neutrally reporting that the Catholic Church opposes women's rights and gay rights. I'm not doing this to have a pointless debate, either. I'm using it as an example of why there's a problem when conservative editors try to stamp out what they consider to be bias. I've been entirely civil the whole time; it's not uncivil to point out where you're unaware of your own bias. It's not an insult, it's constructive criticism. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 00:27, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I fully believe in my churches teaching yet I'm not anti-woman also mother Theresea would disagree with that your overtly criticing my religion so of course I'm going to be offendednot for any article but for grinding an axe the way you speak so vehemently against the church you are unaware of your bias's and being highly intolerant of Catholics like me (maybe you don't mean to but you are) stop this at once this at once this is my last warning before I think about reporting if you want to talk about wikiproject conservatism our your impending RfC of it then let's, not this forum you have gotten us into John D. Rockerduck (talk) 00:41, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What I've been trying to demonstrate is that there's such a thing as an objective viewpoint. I was hoping you might exercise your empathy by looking at it from my eyes.

For example, you point out that, rather than seeing its stance on birth control as as being anti-woman, the Catholic Church sees it as upholding the religious notion "that sex is only for procreation". From the point of view of anyone who's not religious, this notion has absolutely no weight. We can understand it just fine, but find no reason to agree with it.

In other words, it's not anti-Catholic for me to reject it, it's just neutral and objective. I'm under no obligation to believe what Catholicism says. So for non-Catholics (and for Catholics whose conscience does not allow them to agree with their church on this matter), the policies of the Catholic Church are contrary to women's rights, particularly their reproductive rights.

This is, once again, the neutral, objective view. You can disagree with it, but you can't complain that it's anti-Catholic or in any way unfair. It's just objective, which is why it's the view that Wikipedia takes.

In order to successfully follow WP:NPOV, you need to distinguish between what you personally believe to be the WP:TRUTH and what an objective view would be. For a good example, consider that the article on God does not state in Wikipedia's voice whether any such entity exists! StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 03:57, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

John, as a Christian, do you believe it is more important to follow the teachings of Jesus or the teachings of your Church? Viriditas (talk) 00:34, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The teachings of my church are the teachings of Jesus but Viriditas the mere fact you asking me that question with no purpose to improve an article means that this is a forum and a reasonable man like yourself should know that WP is not a forum I find this offensive please stop this grand inquistion this Viriditas is your last warning or I'll think about going to the wiki ettiquete forum since my religous beliefs should not be such a disscussion that is not for an article John D. Rockerduck (talk) 00:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So, in your opinion, should Christians just ignore John 14:6 and focus more on the Church? Viriditas (talk) 00:56, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about those warnings I was getting worked up and little irrationale I won't act upon them nor will I particapte in this discussion anymore let me just say Still-24 and Viridias you have a great deal of misconceptions about the Catholic Church. Such as being anti-gay, although it condemns the act, it doesn't the actor. The Catholic church was one of the first racially integrated as well. And as for contraception, Onan covers part of the reason for the church's stance, which isn't anti-woman. Ironically, it could be seen as anti-man, if anything, since the ban is about casting seed on the ground, including masturbation. We should respect even when we disagree. Most people don't understand Catholicism due to simple ignorance, which is often the source of these obviously non-neutral comments that you both truly believe are neutral. I'm out of this forum for good since no one is going to convince the other John D. Rockerduck (talk) 02:55, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

John, I've defended your position twice in this thread, so it sounds like you're ignoring what is being discussed. Please review WP:IDHT. I think the teachings of Jesus are completely at odds with the teachings of any organized Church, especially those insisting that their followers subscribe to policies and positions that Jesus never spoke about or addressed. There's nothing "anti-Catholic" about me saying that, and if you understood John 14 you would not have made such an accusation. Viriditas (talk) 03:14, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please accept this invite to join the Conservatism WikiProject, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to conservatism. Simply click here to accept! – user:John D. Rockerduck 02:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you want an invite all you had to was ask Still-24 your friend John D. Rockerduck (talk) 23:40, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Two things:

1. Inviting me after I brought up the issue doesn't really count.
2. I believe that a conflict of interest would prevent me from being a genuine member at this time. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 23:42, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was just having a bit of fun but you could have gone to wikiproject conservatism at any time to join but you did not since you never wanted to it is not selective membership John D. Rockerduck (talk) 23:52, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, my point is that, jokes like this aside, Lionelt systematically invites conservatives such as yourself. As a result, when he points the project towards an article (like Paul Ryan) he is necessarily vote-stacking. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 00:07, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no selective membership anyone can join at any time be simply going to (1) and adding their names to the list, invitations are given to those who might be interested in the project but might not know of it's existance any member or non-member (not just Lionelt) can give out an invitation which if you scroll do to the bottom of the page I just cited you can see under Template. Also Still-24, Lionelt probably never gave you an invitation since he probably thought it be a waist of an edit and I was not inclined to give an invitation either since I thought you would not be interested, which judging by this you clearly weren't. John D. Rockerduck (talk) 23:18, 20 August 2012 (UTC

The pattern is that he gave you an invitation because your edits and comments showed you to be conservative. In contrast, mine don't, so he instead filed false reports against me to get me blocked. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 00:29, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

He gave me an invitation since I was interested in conservatism and did not know about wikiproject conservatism unlike you. Also he fished against you since he thought you were breaking the rules just like your doing to him whether either are right or wrong about the other I won't comment on it but your both doing essentially doing the same thing to eachother and you would have tried to block him earlier if given the oppertunity John D. Rockerduck (talk) 00:51, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We're certainly in opposition, but that doesn't make us equivalent. For example, I've never born false witness against him. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 03:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly Still-24 would you have joined if you were invited earlier John D. Rockerduck (talk) 00:54, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If Lionelt was in the habit of inviting non-conservatives as well as conservatives, I may well have accepted. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 03:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is an archived discussion about this very thing at the Project council talkpage. I believe it was the consensus of editors that it did not present any undue stacking of votes and that projects are allowed to invite members.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:58, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Diff? StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 05:28, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I want to make sure that you are aware of this: [5], because it refers to you. Please understand that I have nothing to do with what was said there, but I believe that you are entitled to know what other editors are saying about you. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:06, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I agree that a notification was in order. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 03:05, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikiproject:Conservatism has their own IRC channel. And at least one admin in their group who's promised to stay off editing of topics to appear "neutral" for bans. Watch your back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.31.236.81 (talk) 06:02, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I'm sure that whoever it is that stopped editing will soon file a false report against me, so I won't bother asking for a name.

However, I should probably mention that my email address is still_twentyfour@yahoo.com. According to my in-house tech expert, if you use a disposable web email account, the most I'll be able to determine is your IP. In other words, I'll have no more clue than before about what your Wikipedia account might be. This would make it rather easy to share IRC logs with me. Think about it. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 06:09, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, it would be helpful to them if I did something that, if interpreted with sufficient malice, could be made to look like an actionable violation. I suspect that Belchfire's provocations on James Dobson would suffice, except for the fact that I'm not taking the bait. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 06:31, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like Belchfire and Lionelt are going on a reverting campaign that spans many articles. I will limit myself to 1RR when dealing with them. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 06:42, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see. It's not going to be another false 3RR report, although those have been moderately successful so far. Lionelt's suggesting an RFCU.[6] StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 07:16, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Now Arthur Rubin is reverting back to the POV versions created by Belchfire and Lionelt. Interesting. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 07:18, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure, but I think the admin the IP is referring to retired in April. I could be wrong, of course. Viriditas (talk) 11:14, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's an active admin. I know better than to say the name because then it'll be an "unsubstantiated accusation", "in bad faith", "harassing an admin", and anything else that they can come up with.

The topics of discussion last night about 7pm, and I'm sorry I didn't have logging running, were how they could manage to get you either banned or topic-banned along with how they could "keep new users away so that the consensus could be properly made to remove liberal bias."

It appears the planned pattern is to have a few of their members play the gadfly and deliberately try to provoke, another few around to fill your page up with "warnings" for anything they possibly can think of, and one or two of them to constantly create notices at WP:AIV and WP:ANI to try to garner admin support for a ban under the idea that you "must be doing something disruptive if he's constantly being mentioned at ANI." They plan on known ignorance, that admins rarely look into an actual situation deeper than the shallowest representation placed by an initial writer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.31.236.81 (talk) 12:44, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Knew I recognized a few of those names. "ArtRubin" is most likely [7] Arthur Rubin. He was designated to the provocation group. Just FYI so that you know when you encounter him, he's assigned to deliberately try to provoke you with incivility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.31.236.81 (talk) 12:49, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Could you email me some logs or evidence of collusion? In the past, arbcom has been willing to issue blocks when such evidence is provided. The more evidence of collusion you can provide, the quicker we can get this evidence to arbcom. I would prefer to see the evidence myself rather than sending it directly to arbcom, as evidence sent to them often gets lost due to their list filtering system. Viriditas (talk) 19:24, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Arthur did say that, although he has continued to follow me around, he hasn't done so lately and is just starting to, again. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 15:07, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. You have a new message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Conservatism#Paul Ryan needs our help!!!'s talk page.– Sir Lionel, EG^(talk) 04:57, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]