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Jimmy: Information has arisen that User:Coren has become a paid employee of WMF, effective Feb. 25, 2013. To his credit, Coren did disclose this information HERE. I am curious whether WMF's legal eagles have issued an opinion as to whether this is an acceptable "co-mingling of responsibilities" or whether this presents a potential foothold for anyone who might in the future seek to demonstrate legal responsibility for the Foundation over content. Do you personally share my own view that Coren should resign one position or the other? Carrite (talk) 16:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 17:09, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Considering the rest of us dont get paid for our contributions this might be in the affirmative. Pass a Method talk 16:58, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure that my manager at the Foundation would be pretty annoyed if I billed him for my volunteer work – and well he should. I am being paid for very specific technical work on a specific part of the infrastructure, not for any of the work I do on the English Wikipedia. — Coren ^(talk) 02:00, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's my understanding that the legal eagles at WMF do not see any issue with Coren's retaining his role from a legal perspective. Fortunately for me, they've been okay with my remaining an admin and an editor in spite of my work, too, as long as I am careful to maintain separation of roles. I'll be happy to verify. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 17:39, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First, a brief correction: Coren is not a paid employee of the Wikimedia Foundation, he has accepted a contract for a defined scope of work as a contractor, I believe. On the question above, however, Maggie is correct. Prior to Coren accepting employment, I asked the General Counsel this exact question. The opinion he expressed to me is that there is no conflict of interest from a legal perspective, and therefore that wouldn't legally bar his appointment or him continuing on the Arbcom. Of course, community issues of COI and editorial standards are different, and the community is certainly allowed to create and codify standards there, but there is nothing that legally prohibits this. Disclosure: like Maggie, I retained my adminship here when I was hired. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 18:15, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose the fundamental question is whether being one of 15 elected ArbCom members is fundamentally different than being one of 1500 or so Administrators. I don't see a COI issue between WMF employment with the latter, I do with the former. Carrite (talk) 18:18, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is an interesting question, but it'd be worthwhile for someone who thinks there is an issue here to explain exactly what it might be. ArbCom's work and the work of the Foundation have very little overlap. ArbCom doesn't rule on Foundation issues (it has no authority to do so) and the Foundation doesn't interfere with ArbCom decisions (it has the authority to do so, but it doesn't as a general practice). I'm not sure what the problem would be.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:41, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see it as a big issue but it's probably not a good idea in principle. I know the analogy can only go so far, but it is a bit like mixing the Executive branch with the Judiciary. --regentspark (comment) 20:34, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Risker says on the page linked that he would have had to recuse from 27% of Arbcom cases in the last year, as well as other matters. Coren's response: "...But, in the end, if it turns out that I would have to recuse on half of the issues that reach the Committee during my contract (which would surprise me no end), that leaves me available to contribute positively for the other half...." does not represent a good way forward. Johnbod (talk) 20:42, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

While that's not a good sign, the bigger problem is that people will wonder who's doing the talking. The WMF or the arb. And this is regardless of whether there is an overlap between their roles at all. Human nature being what it is, this is probably not a good idea at all. --regentspark (comment) 20:52, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

From what I've seen, "who's doing the talking" is a problem that's been solved by people having official accounts that are separate from their volunteer accounts, and making sure they talk from the right one at the right time. (About which quite a degree of care seems to be taken.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 15:39, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Carrite, "information has arisen" is an interesting way of saying "Wikipediocracy has just noticed"; there was hardly any secret involved. As soon as I was offered the job I posted prominent notices on a half dozen high visibility noticeboards (including the Committee's, AN, and the Village Pump) inviting comments and discussion. (And, incidentally, I would have appreciated notice that you were discussing me here).

And again, for those who did not have the opportunity to involve themselves in the previous discussion, the contract I have with the foundation is with Engineering and Product Development, which has no influence or authority on the English Wikipedia – let alone the Committee. While Jimmy is correct above that the Foundation does have some interplay with the projects, that would necessarily come from Legal and Community Advocacy, which is a different bunch of people. And even then, in order to prevent from even the appearance of impropriety, I recuse from any such interactions.

If you have specific concerns about possible interactions between my volunteer work and my paid role, I invite you to discuss them with me (or with the Committee); but to date the consensus is that, with some care to avoid the appearance of conflict, there is no impact on either. Vague gesturing at hypothetical shadows, however, is probably not quite as helpful. — Coren ^(talk) 01:56, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nice of you to phrase it with overtones of conspiracy theory. I'm just curious about whether there is a potential of Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act being undermined by your rather tone-deaf failure to separate commercial gain from volunteer service. The answer appears to be no. Good for you. Carrite (talk) 03:03, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• All arbitrators and all WMF employees (contractors) have some COI. They all are concerned about keeping their very nice positions much more than about being fair and honest. They all have much to lose, you see. Arbitrators have to balance of course. They have to keep friends in the upper circles, and they have to remain popular with the community. For example Jclemens made a very bad mistake, when he voted to ban Malleus, and he lost the election. On the other hand Courcelles has learned his lesson. Once he almost got desysoped for blocking Malleus. He's never repeated the same mistake again, and I am sure he never will. It was funny seeing him opposing Malleus's ban. Has he suddenly liked Malleus? Has he suddenly decided to play it fair? It is very doubtful. He opposed the ban not because he acted in Wikipedia's best interests, not because he acted in Malleus's best interests. He opposed the ban because he acted in his own best interests, and by a pure accident he did the right thing. Often though Wikipedia's best interests and arbitrators best interests are different. I think Coren has two COI now. I think he should resign as Chase did, when he got employed by WMUK. 71.198.250.115 (talk) 04:12, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there anyone else you want to drag into this?--Amadscientist (talk) 04:27, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• In my experience, when someone accepts a volunteer position like this one with a charitable organization, they are often hoping to work their way into a paid position, perhaps by doing such a good job in the volunteer position that they make a successful bid to get it funded with a salary the next business year. Coren, has any thought like this crossed your mind? Cla68 (talk) 05:22, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  Oh come on man. More fodder for WR or well, whatever offsite dramaboard that has succeeded it?--MONGO 05:35, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • That's an ad hominem argument MONGO, meant to discredit my statement by casting doubt on my motivation for stating it. An ad hominem is a logical fallacy. As adults, we should try to debate the merits of each others' arguments without resorting to such tactics. Using such tactics reflects poorly on you, and on Wikipedia for allowing anyone to engage in such behavior. Wikipedians continue to do it, however, because there are no consequences for doing so. Since you edit anonymously, you don't worry about real life people coming to the conclusion that you debate in a dishonest manner. Cla68 (talk) 06:49, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  I think Cla may be over-generalizing from his own expreience. Tom Harrison ^Talk 13:35, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • (@Cla68) I never had any pretension that what I do here on enwp is so brilliantly executed that I should be paid for it. Did my involvement here play a part in my getting the job? No doubt it did – the Foundation never made any secret of the fact that they consider involvement as a volunteer a "plus" when making hiring decisions. What I can tell you is that during the extended interview process, the people I have talked to seemed interested rather in my technical skills and experience.

    I was looking for a job, and there was a posting for a contractual position I was perfectly qualified for. I didn't go "Finally, my volunteer work 'paid off'!", just "Cool, I could work at something I love for a change." — Coren ^(talk) 13:37, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Of course that is the case, but the conspiracy theorists don't want to be fair. While there is no issue with some wanting a pledge from you to be mindful of COI issues, its the insinuation of assumed impropriety that is just pure tabloid dribble, suitable only for some slanderous trash rag.--MONGO 15:15, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Besides everything else it is all but impossible to be an honest arbitrator and to be an honest employee. There's simply not enough time. Some time ago I happened to read an email sent by a former arbitrator, which was forwarded to me by an accident. They confirmed my words. They said that being an arbitrator is a full time job, and there's no time left for anything else. They said the amount of emails the arbitrators should read and respond is overwhelming, and then there's on wiki work to do. Also Risker writes: "I'm at work now, so am not in a position to use my fancy tools, so can someone checkuser this one please ..." So she cannot use her " fancy tools" because she is at work, but she reads and responds emails that have absolutely nothing to do with her work. Is she an honest employee? Of course she is not, and if a person is dishonest at his/her work, he/she makes a dishonest arbitrator. 71.198.250.115 (talk) 15:27, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Excuse me, but what on earth are you gibbering on about? Yes, several arbs have day jobs that aren't to do with Wikipedia, and yes, they find enough hours in the day to carry out those day jobs and also carry out their arb "work". And yes, one might imagine they sometimes answer email from their workplaces during their lunch hour or during other designated break periods. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 15:36, 27 February 2013 (UTC) (writing this from, but not for, my employer)[reply]

Hello Jimbo,

I found myself interested in a man named Alexander Mirtchev after reading an article about the enablers of the dictatorship of Kazakhstan in the United States. I did some research and found that Mr. Mirtchev has been investigated for money laundering (in an article by the Wall Street Journal[1] ) and has been identified as the dictator's "point man" in Washington DC. I cited the Wall Street Journal (twice), Der Spiegel, Forbes, and The Human Rights Foundation as my sources. But this is only the beginning of the story.

My edits were almost immediately removed by a brand new user. We went back and forth debating the content of the article, but after a while, I lost interest—I do have a job after all and I can't spend all day arguing on Wikipedia. When I came back to check on the page a couple months later, I noticed that the page looked like a blatant advertisement. I also noticed some similarities between the half-dozen single-purpose accounts created to edit his page. 

I launched a sockpuppet investigation on the 31st of January[2]. The results came back positive, and the CheckUsers were able to identify several other accounts that edit on the same IP address. After reviewing the contributions of some of the usernames identified, it became clear that these were all sockpuppets of the PR company Qorvis.

In case you are unfamiliar, this is from Qorvis's Wikipedia page:

"In early February 2011, three of Qorvis's partners left the firm disgruntled by compensation; however, they later attributed it to the company's controversial work with foreign governments. A former employee, Don Goldberg, who represented Saudi Arabia and Halliburton while at the firm, was reported as saying, 'I just have trouble working with despotic dictators killing their own people.'"

Some of the usernames involved:

• RachelleLin edits exclusively Alexander Mirtchev, a man accused by the Wall Street Journal of laundering money for the dictator of Kazakhstan[3] and a man who directs the sovereign wealth fund of Kazakhstan — also, a known client of Qorvis[4]
• RichardBr2 is just a weak attempt at sockpuppetry working for the Mirtchev page. 
• Msgolightly212 is another editor that adds puffery to Mirtchev's page and removes anything negative, no matter how well sourced.
• Harriett888 edits exclusively Qorvis's page, removes all negative information, and hid the negative information he/she couldn't remove under the Bahrain section at the very end of the page.
• Sacoca edits exclusively Tom Squitieri, an employee of Qorvis.

I understand you are familiar with the ethical blindness of PR firms like Bell Pottinger[5]—a company to which Qorvis subcontracts some of its dirtiest work[6] including covering up the actions of Bahrain and Yemen. This is not the first time Qorvis has been caught editing Wikipedia[7] 

I am a huge fan of the Wikipedia project and I would hate to see it corrupted by lobbyists and PR firms, hoping to erase the evils done by dictatorships. If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know. KazakhBT (talk) 22:40, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• As a steadfast opponent of all paid editing here, who knows nothing about the particulars of the above matter, all I can say is that if it is true, we need to have a long-overdue Wiki-wide discussion about eliminating all traces of paid editing, if Wikipedia is to maintain any semblance of NPOV, or just change the slogan to "The Free Encyclopedia that those with money and power can slant as they see fit." Jusdafax 04:38, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]