Cannabis Ruderalis

thcscience_admin


(Manual archive list)

Continued: civility and team spirit

Civility I asked some candidates for arbitrator the following question: how do you feel about applying the principles that we use for BLPs (Biographies of living persons) also to editors: "a high degree of sensitivity", "attributed to a reliable, published source", "written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy", "the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered"?

Team spirit I like to see in the Main page's (frequently discredited) DYK section 1950s American automobile culture, the result of admirable teamwork begun here (where some may not exactly expect civility) ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:04, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Great collaboration from great editors. Something we should all look at and see the true sprit of Wikipedia.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:27, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now archived, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:09, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I enjoy the collaboration on my proposal of a new infobox template for a rather complex topic, to be considered, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:19, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I joined a project now that applies the principles summarised above, Editor Retention. I feel that we are losing the best. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:27, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to encourage Jimbo and all editors who read this to join the Editor retention project! Well worth the effort and we can use the help there...as well as new volunteers at Wikipedia:Dispute Resolution Noticeboard!--Amadscientist (talk) 04:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My personal efforts started when BarkingMoon (talk · contribs) left. I didn't get far, some people still don't believe that he even exists. I was more successful with Khazar2, Tim riley and Dr. Blofeld, some pillars of Wikipedia ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:05, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Discontinued: I thank Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs) for living (not speaking) civility, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:46, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since Wikipedia itself isn't a reliable source, applying BLP principles to editors would mean that we could no longer draw conclusions based on an editor's Wikipedia editing. Moreover, even if Wikipedia was considered a reliable source, it would still be WP:SYNTH to combine several edits by an editor and decide that the editor is being disruptive. We'd have to find a source stating that the editor is disruptive before we could state that ourselves.

Currently this is permissible because BLP states that "Although this policy applies to posts about Wikipedians in project space, some leeway is permitted to allow the handling of administrative issues by the community". Your proposal would end that. Ken Arromdee (talk) 15:36, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I can follow. I don't talk about the so-called disruption. I talk about saying something about an editor without sources for it, without saying it's POV not facts, without regard to how it harms him, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:43, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Using your suggestion we can't say anything about an editor. It's not just that we can't talk about his private life--we can't even talk about his on-Wikipedia activities, since Wikipedia isn't a reliable source (and even if it was, we wouldn't be permitted to draw conclusions about it). Ken Arromdee (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would be fine with not saying anything ABOUT an editor, but talk TO them. Look at Malleus Fatuorum: much has been said about him, I went and proposed an idea to him, he implemented a sample, asking the main author politely if it was acceptable, and then did the major change work, assisted by RexxS. I would like to see more in that spirit, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:10, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Square Enix is back

Today our fine featured ad for the Christmas shopping season is Final Fantasy. It is one of many featured articles from the prolific and dedicated editors of WP:WikiProject Square Enix, devoted to the fine products of Square Enix and its European division. Though less than half of Square Enix's fine products that have reached FA status have actually been displayed on the Main Page so far, they still have appeared about once every 212 days since 2006:

The Square Enix WikiProject doesn't include works of the wholly owned subsidiaries Taito and Eidos in its lists, so I didn't count Taito's Space Invaders (April 24, 2010) and I'm not sure how many more of those there are, but their articles don't seem like they've seen anywhere near as much attention - there are even lots of redlinks.

It looks like some folks at Square Enix have a lot to be proud of on their resumes, and I'm sure they have a bright future ahead of them in Wikipedia advertising. Wnt (talk) 19:20, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Forgive the following statements of the obvious, but not all readers of the talk page will be aware of the process, so I'll address that. If you (plural, i.e. anyone here) see any inappropriate language/content/sourcing/advertising etc within the articles, then you can edit them accordingly, and discuss any issues on the respective talk pages. If you don't think they should be featured articles, then please see the instructions at WP:FAR (which includes a requirement of raising issues on the talk page first). If you would like different articles to be TFAs, then please browse the list of FAs yet to appear on the main page and then make suggestions or comment on nominations by others at WP:TFAR. If you would like to broaden the choice available, then work on something else and nominate it at WP:FAC. As a TFA delegate, I selected Final Fantasy to run today (without a TFAR discussion - most TFAs are just selected rather than discussed) because it was noted on the advance warning list that today was the game's 25th anniversary, which seemed to me to be as good a day as any (if not better than most) to run it. You will notice from WP:FANMP that there are 71 video game FAs yet to appear on the main page (out of 143 current video game FAs), pr just over 5% of the unused FAs, which might suggest on a purely percentage basis that a video game ought to be TFA every 19 days or so (i.e. about 18 or 19 a year). In fact, TFA schedulers try to avoid having similar articles within 1 month, which means that the chances of a video game appearing as TFA are less than average (and certainly not as many as 18 a year); as it happens there was no video game TFA in October. I don't know, and I don't particularly care, which company owns which video game series, and that certainly wasn't a factor in my decision. I wasn't responsible for earlier scheduling decisions. For what it is worth, I have never played, or even seen, any of the video games mentioned above or yet to appear on the main page (with the exception of "Age of Empires" which I played many years and several computers ago). Hope this explanation helps. BencherliteTalk 20:07, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ice hockey related articles have appeared once every 166 days, on average, over the same time. I guess we at WP:HOCKEY are just better spammers. Resolute 20:21, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I believe Wnt is engaging in a bit of point-making here, as he is still a bit upset over the whole DYK Gibraltar affair. Tarc (talk) 20:25, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ice hockey is a sport. Square Enix is an owner. The count for all video game related articles is much higher. Now, one can say that Gibraltar is a small place and doesn't deserve a seat in the United Nations, but ... does Square Enix? Then why does it hold a permanent claim to 1/200th of the world of Wikipedia? I didn't think that the Gibraltar people deserved to be treated as harshly as they did, no, but the "point" I'm making here has more to do with the fact that we're allowing a single company to use us far more harshly than that place ever tried to. Wnt (talk) 21:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you even know what your point is, actually. We're not allowing a company to use us at all. Rather, several editors with interest in the Final Fantasy series have put a great deal of work into their favoured project. We actually have several pop culture 'units' with similar levels of dedication and quality. Resolute 21:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that if you could sell any company 0.5% of Wikipedia's main page TFA slot, that would be worth a lot of money. Or, as a WMUK slideshow presentation to PR people put it a while back, on a slide named "[Wikipedia] Contributions as soft advertising" (slide 22): Imagine having your client's name on the Front Page of the world's fifth website? Andreas JN466 02:02, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with these arguments is that even the ice hockey featured articles were almost entirely professional hockey teams and their star players, who have their own franchising, licensing, promotions, and agents. As long as Wikipedia articles cover a broad swath of society, there will be a mix of articles by fanboys of a video game, fans of an ice hockey team, fans of a mega-money making rock band, etc. Some of those articles will reach FA and appear on the main page. If we banned all commercial money-making entities from being featured, that would cover most of popular culture and nearly all living people. First Light (talk) 02:28, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • What would you want, Andreas? That as an article bubbles up through the TFA process we bill whatever entity will possibly benefit from the exposure and refuse to run it unless they pay up? — Coren (talk) 14:55, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you have evidence that the company is behind the creation and / or editing of these articles to featured standard, no doubt you'll show it. I would have thought that using FAs, and TFAs in particular, as an advertising strategy is a pretty poor approach since it requires a lot of time and effort to write articles with excellent prose/sources and without promotional language; then you have to steer them through FAC where uninvolved editors review and can sink a nomination; then you have to rely on the whims of TFA scheduling. Short of corrupting all the FAC reviewers and the TFA schedulers, how can you guarantee main-page exposure for an article?! BencherliteTalk 21:54, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Even if Square Enix were responsible, and no evidence has been presented, should it matter why an article is improved to feature quality? Any COI issues should have been hammered out by that point if they ever existed. Monty845 04:53, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to thank Wnt for spreading the word about this article. I have played several games from this series and had never read this article before tonight. - UnbelievableError (talk) 07:32, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure there is much we can do about the fact that what are on a practical level significant cultural artifacts have their copyright owned by private companies.©Geni 20:33, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Notification

Please be aware of Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2012#Results. Thank you. MBisanz talk 21:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Not sure everyone is going to be happy with the results but then many will be....so it kinda balances out! =)--Amadscientist (talk) 04:38, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of the result, I find it remarkable that a) less than 900 people cast a vote, and b) that I notice that the result is out via Jimbo's talk page... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:55, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I should be able to make my ceremonial/formal appointments on Friday. There will be no surprises.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:59, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. Does this mean that your role is basically that of a one-man electoral college? :-) Prioryman (talk) 17:02, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
More like the Queen. :-) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:05, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
..or maybe "a queen"? I think proper drag attire would very much lend colour to otherwise dull official occasions, like visits of state, taking of an oath of office, or appointing Wikipedia arbiters. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:18, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wearing the proper attire for visits isn't to be sniffed at.--Santa (talk) 17:47, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Awwwww, you tricked me, I thought you were gonna post some smoking hot picture of a Vegas porno convention archived for the betterment of the encyclopedia at WMF Commons... Carrite (talk) 01:00, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Bwahahahaha! Oh stop...you're killing me! LOL! Queen Jimbo Wales! Not gonna stop smiling for a week! LOL!--Amadscientist (talk) 02:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Proper attire is very important. Resolute 14:37, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No time like an apocalypse for momentous events... my school scheduled its graduation ceremonies during the last apocalypse; the final Senior graduated 16 seconds before the Rapture occurred. So this time, it will be a final test of the arbs' dedication - will they spend their final moments crouched over their computers, dutifully running CheckUsers, Oversighting revisions, and moderating hectic case requests, as rivers of fire flow through the streets? Or, perhaps, has one super-dedicated arb been building a spaceship for the last few years, from which they can adjudicate content disputes among the ragged band of surviving Wikipedians, who will have gathered on a puzzle-ball shaped space station to continue the project. (Of course, those Wikipedians will die shortly after the space station is launched, thanks to that hole in the top.) — Francophonie&Androphilie(Je vous invite à me parler) 08:22, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kazakhstan government support for Kazakh Wikipedia

Jimbo, could you tell us something about the relationship between Kazakhstan's government and the Kazakh Wikipedia? The reason I am asking is these articles:

Former Prime Minister Karim Massimov, currently chief of staff of the President's Office, who is mentioned in the Economist article as the country's foremost blogger, is mentioned in the second article about your "expected" visit as a prominent supporter of the Kazakh Wikipedia. Andreas JN466 02:21, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I guess you should ask Rauan Kenzhekhanuly directly instead of Jimbo, if you haven't already. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 02:42, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I second this. Rauan will know more than I do. As far as I have been told so far, there are no particularly difficult issues with neutrality in the Kazakh Wikipedia, but I'm open to evidence. (Notice that I didn't say that there are "no issues" - in every language there are issues. As far as I know, the Wikibilim organization is not politicized. In my visit to Kazakhstan I will of course stress the importance of freedom of the press and encourage more openness.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:26, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
From the English Wikipedia article: "Eventually, the state-supported Samruk Kazyna Foundation sponsored the expansion, with 30 million tenge spent in 2011 for paid editing, digitalization, and author rights transfer."
30 million tenge = ~$200 000 (US). Kazakhstan's nominal GDP per capita is $11,167, less than a quarter that of the States. So big bucks, relatively. Maybe it was started by bureaucrats who want nothing more than to aid the spread of the Kazakh language online. However, Kazakhstan ranks 154th out of 179 countries in the Press Freedom Index, on par with Pakistan, Iraq, Palestine, Libya, and Rwanda. They are also ranked "Not Free" in the Freedom in the World report.
Who knows. But has the Wikimedia Foundation ever had experience of a government of this nature wresting control of its national language's encyclopaedia? Is there anywhere non-Kazakh speaking concerned editors can go to keep an eye on what's going on?
Cheers, PhnomPencil (✉) 03:32, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your implication of Kazakh Wikipedia's contents is affected by the sponsorship from Kazakh state-supported entity is rude. You need concrete evidence before asking the question. If you can prove that many prominent Kazakn Wikipedia articles have broken the neutrality pillar, by all mean, complain to WMF, not beating around the bush. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 04:12, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree of course with your assertion that the matter should not be discussed. I think this would generate more debate if it weren't from a region famous for being considered obscure, and sponsorship by the PRC gov't, I believe, would be put under the microscope as a matter of course. Probably no harm would come from sponsorship of editorship from Beijing, but a discussion on the matter, in my subjective opinion, would be healthy. It appears we are at odds over this. And I'm not making a formal complaint, I'm just informally asking if anyone knows more about this. Because I'm interested. It's a discussion. We're all adults here.
I'm commenting here again, though, just to clarify that I'm aware the volunteer editors of the Kazakh Wikipedia spend their time there for the same reason we do -- they want to expand the breadth of knowledge for the greater good -- and I want to emphasize that in no way am I criticizing them. I'm only interested in the paid editorship of articles sponsored by the Kazakh government. If it looked like I was tarring them, I sincerely apologize. PhnomPencil (✉) 05:27, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not against discussion. Paidediting is only a fact, but it is not the deciding factor that Kazakh Wikipedia would go the wrong way. I prefer starting a discussion after someone has provided concrete evidence that Kazakh Wikipedia is in neutrality crisis. By that I mean quotes from disputed Kazakh Wikipedia articles along with faithful English translation, not assumption over a fact that paidediting is plaguing Kazakh Wikipedia. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 06:35, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The amounts have gone up, PhnomPencil. According to this article,

In 2011 Samruk Kazyna Sovereign Wealth Fund allocated a total of $204 million to develop the Kazakh-language Wikipedia. This year, another $136 million will be earmarked, Tengrinews.kz reports, citing the Fund’s Press Service.

According to Majilis (lower chamber) deputy Murat Abenov, “the project needs fresh authors (…) The Project is being run by the non-profit WikiBilim organization. None of the staff was paid a salary: they did it voluntarily”. Thanks to the Samruk Kazyna’s financial support, the number of entries in the Kazakh-language Wikipedia had reached 125 000 by the end of 2011, with the number of registered users mounting to 14 550. The editorial staff was increased from 4 to 250 people. The Kazakh-language Wikipedia raised from the 127th to the 35th place in the rankings of countries”, the Fund’s Press Service announced.

According to the report by WikiBilim, from June 16, 2011 to December 31, 2011, a total of 71 contracts were signed with a raft of writers, editors and translators.

Besides, in 2011 and 2012 a total of 22 000 volunteers have been attracted.

I assume the use of the $ symbol in that news article is an error, and that the amounts are in Tenge (₸).
The fundraiser banners recently proudly proclaimed, "we take no government funds". Andreas JN466 15:33, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
For those of us not well versed in bizarro conspiracy theories, can you please explain what the hell that is supposed to mean?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:34, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

According to Freedom House, Even as officials adopted social media for their own use, promoting state programs and confronting local authorities with incompetence, the state has increasingly contested internet freedom and online alternatives to state-owned news outlets. The internet was accessed by 34 percent of the population in 2010. A 2009 law classified websites as mass media outlets, giving the authorities greater latitude to shut them down under vaguely worded extremism statutes or in the interests of state security. Doesn't sound like an ideal environment for a "free" enyclopedia to me, but maybe Well, I guess they will make an exception for Jimbo, hm? Attaboy. --Janneman (talk) 16:34, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

it is a difficult environment there, to be sure. I do not think they will make any exceptions for me, but I also expect them not to arrest me for criticising their track record on freedom of speech issues. I have spoken publicly against censorship in China, Saudi Arabia, and so on, I usually make sure the American embassy knows when I am visiting a difficult jurisdiction.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've actually been eyeing up Kazakhstan for some time to better cover some of its small towns which are missing enmasse. Although the main towns have population data from old Soviet censuses, I've been looking forward to some up to do population data on every village/ Would be good if the Kazakh government could do a census and publish data for all villages and then work with individuals to get articles put on Kazakh wiki with data and then on English wikipedia.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 18:44, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Message to the founder of Wikimedia

Welcome.

  1. Since you are the founder of Wikipedia, why not nominate yourself or ask a Arhg Kbiroaqrat, then after the nomination period Steward?!
  2. What do you think of Egyptian and Arabic Wikipedia which claims that the Egyptian dialect languages? They lie and culture lie the English Wikipedia every Wikipedias every encyclopedias — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.130.103.230 (talk) 09:32, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]


We really have a very simple test once a Wikipedia has had a chance to establish itself. Does it have a reasonable level of activity and a reasonable amount of content? At the moment activity on arz: is low compared with ar: (and even that is pretty low), but I think it is enough for the Wiki to continue, if you have concerns the people who would have the answers are the Language Committee, who can probably be contacted on Meta. And I would agree that arz: is somewhat of an anomaly, there could very well be, in theory, a dozen Arabic Wikipedias, nonetheless it is the one for which there was sufficient support. In time, of course, with a lack of outside funding it may well be that this wiki closes or is mothballed. It will be, I hope, a decision taken pragmatically on the usefulness of the project, not on possibly political arguments about what constitutes a language, and what a dialect.
All the best, Rich Farmbrough, 21:17, 20 December 2012 (UTC).[reply]
I certainly think we need more Arhg Kbiroaqrats. Johnbod (talk) 11:02, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if it means "Bureaucrat". In which case, I am already an Arhg Kbiroaqrat. And I much prefer that title. --Dweller (talk) 11:08, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think Arb [or] Bureaucrat was intended, but I think the new names have a nice ring. Johnbod (talk) 11:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia doesn't need your money - so why does it keep pestering you?

On Wikipedia's own donations page we learn of a moving story of a student in Agnam-Goly, a Sahelian village in north-eastern Senegal with a population of 3,143 inhabitants, who expresses how he'd love to give money to the foundation."I wish I had money to donate to Wikipedia," writes Adama Diop.Does he know wealthy Westerners are using the donations to buy cameras and travel to pop concerts? Or that the foundation has more cash than it knows what to do with? 71.202.122.192 (talk) 18:46, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm disappointed in The Register. The tone is incredibly negative, but at the same time he admits that much of what the foundation is doing is "eminently sensible". The things that he is criticizing seem to come at the chapter level and are relatively small expenses. He doesn't even both to try to understand why we might be interested in getting photos of politicians or concerts. And then there are some things that are just silly: "Few politicians or media figures now dare criticise Wikipedia" Hah! GabrielF (talk) 19:03, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wikimedians do not need money to get photos of politicians. They could simply email to the politicians or to their offices, and get as many pictures as they want together with the permissions for using them.
I think that the point "Few politicians or media figures now dare criticise Wikipedia" has some merits. The foundation has became a very powerful organization, and the Wikipedia community has a deadly weapon to use against notable persons who dare to criticise Wikipedia - their Wikipedia entries. I know, I know, there are polices like BLP and no original research, and everything should be sourced, and so on, but truth be told there's no policy that could prevent an experienced Wikipedian from changing an article the way he wants it to change especially with the Foundation on his side.71.202.122.192 (talk) 19:23, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually WP:BLP is much better policed than you appear to think it is. Unless you care to give us some examples? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:32, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Remember that even, if BLP is fixed the fix could come after other sites picked up a wrong version. There are plenty examples of users using Wikipedia entries to defame their opponents:Here's one, or you may want to read this and this: "Vandalism of conservatives’ Wikipedia pages is nothing new. " 71.202.122.192 (talk) 19:50, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm well aware of Johann Hari; I was hoping for examples about "an experienced Wikipedian ... changing an article the way he wants it to change especially with the Foundation on his side". --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:10, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not at all disappointed in The Register; Orlowski has been writing this sort of thing on a regular basis for quite some time now, so it's not at all surprising to see more of it. He can't even get his basic facts right (what sort of journalist takes a screenshot of the subject of his article then blatantly mis-labels what the screenshot is showing?), so I imagine there are now very few people out there who still take him seriously. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:13, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well there are 100+ comments on the article that are not positive towards WP, and most are double digit liked. It seems that in the UK at least, OW's article is chiming with what a number of people think. I also note that he's picked up on the Google connection and the WP blackout too. John lilburne (talk) 21:51, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is n connection between Google and the blackout. None. Please stop repeating that nonsense.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:56, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it was just a spontaneous burst of emotion by the community and the hundreds of IPs not seen before or since had no effect on the outcome.</sarcasm>--Wehwalt (talk) 08:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You keep repeating this meme but never with even the slightest shred of proof. And anyway, what would this have to do with Google? You might plausibly (but wrongly, I think) argue that Reddit users came and voted in our poll, overwhelming the community, but again, that would have nothing to do with Google. (And, it's false anyway. If you think you have evidence for it, please produce it. Notice that I've been asking for this for a long time, and you've produced nothing. It's easy to do - go tally the votes again keeping track of user edit counts, admin status, etc., and bring back the results.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:38, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
See SPA Tagging at Wikipedia:SOPA initiative/Action. Editors were told not to tag single-purpose accounts – i.e. accounts that had made little or no contributions to Wikipedia apart from voting for a blackout – as is standard for all sorts of ordinary community !votes such as article deletion, requests for comment, and so on. I think this is the only community poll where admins were told that votes by IPs that had never before contributed to Wikipedia should count the same as those of established contributors. Given that there were pointers to the discussion in places like Reddit, it is hardly surprising that there was a large influx of IPs that influenced the course of the discussion as well as the final result. Which is all the more noteworthy given that this was one of the most important community votes ever, which forever altered the perception of Wikipedia as a neutral reference source and turned it into a political player. In addition, we have to remember that Wikipedians were told that SOPA was a threat to the existence of Wikipedia. Tim Starling, one of the Foundation's most longstanding employees, later said in public that this was quite simply untrue. "Maybe SOPA was a "serious threat to freedom of expression on the Internet", and worth fighting against, but it wasn't a threat to Wikipedia's existence." I believe him. Andreas JN466 13:10, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm perfectly willing to accept that you were the dupe in this rather than the dude. The idea sprung from a small group "Fight for the Future" that suddenly arose with a $300,000 donation from Media Democracy Fund which is basically a middle man for other donors. A week later "Fight for the Future is at a meeting at Mozilla with Reddit and Google planning strategy, the day later $500,000 was donated to wikipedia, and posts by members of Fight for the Future are appearing on Reddit.

And we got on Reddit that Friday. And it was tricky to get on Reddit even—Reddit is just this beehive of anti-SOPA sentiment but at that point really wasn’t woken up to it. I remember sitting down at the keyboard and thinking, ‘Okay what will get people’s attention?’ The post I wrote was something like, ‘The MPAA will soon have the power to block American’s access to any website unless we fight back’—comma—‘hard!’ And that was the post—that post got to the top.

What percentage of Mozilla income comes from Google it used to be 90%? And what is the likelihood that a small organisation suddenly gets a $300,000 donation and within two weeks is talking to gathering of the valleys biggest players? John lilburne (talk) 09:49, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is absolutely false that "the idea sprung from a small group 'Fight for the Future'. The idea sprung, as far as I know, from me. Me personally. I do not know anything about "Fight for the Future", nothing about "Media Democracy Fund", nothing about Mozilla, Reddit, and Google having any sort of planning meeting, etc. Sergei's personal donation came with absolutely no discussion of any kind about SOPA - he does that from time to time, and this was routine - he's a longstanding fan and supporter. To repeat, nothing about our blackout had anything to do with Google donations. It was never discussed, never implied, never hinted at, nothing. Sergei's donation was normal for him and totally unrelated to SOPA. If Google donated money to "Fight for the Future" in the hopes of getting Wikipedia to shut down for a day, that'd be a pretty stupid way of going about it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:38, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Mike Linksvayer is on record for saying it was discussed on the 9th of December at the Creative Commons Board meeting chaired by Brin's mother-in-law. Following that he starting sounding out the CC community on the 14th of December. You started sounding out the wikipedia community on the 10th of December. IIRC with references to the reddit community, the reddit community having been prompted into a blackout suggestion by those at the Google, Mozilla ($300 million deal from Google mid December 2011), Reddit execs, and Fight for the Future meeting on the 16th of November. As I said the 16th of November meeting appears to have been a get together to discuss how to get the various online communities to protest SOPA with site blackouts. Meanwhile Google also spunked $2.5 million in direct lobbying of congress in the month before SOPA. One shouldn't be seen getting into bed with criminals, and tax avoiders. John lilburne (talk) 10:58, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you think listing a bunch of random facts that have nothing to do with anythinghelps your case that Sergei's donation had anything to do with the blackout? I particularly like (ha) the way you write as if these are in some way contradicting anything that I've said. Let me go through this step by step for you. "Mike Linksvayer is on record for saying it(what? SOPA? blackout?) was discussed on 9th of December at the Creative Commons Board meeting chaired by Brin's mother-in-law." I was not at that meeting, and I was unaware (and still am) of the contents of whatever that conversation may have been. But it is hardly surprising that the CC board would be discussing a major threat to Internet openness.
"sounding out the CC community on the 14th of December" - unrelated to Wikipedia and again, so what?
Reddit community - I don't read reddit, I was not involved in those meetings, that has nothing to do with me or Wikipedia.
Your theory is just not at all consistent with the facts. Sorry. You're trying to make the case that the Wikipedia blackout was prompted by Sergei's donation, or perhaps the other way around. That's absolutely false.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is an acknowledged fact that a blackout of internet sites was discussed at the Mountain View meeting on the 9th of November with Google, and a strategy devised to employ the various online communities, those at the meeting have also taken credit for manipulating the reddit community by planting posts on the site. The Creative Commons community was drawn in to it at the Board meeting on the 9th of December, on the 10th of December you were broaching the idea of a wikipedia blackout. Various commentators here say that the community vote in favour was suspect, with a large number of IP votes. Note that the reddit community was manipulated with posts by those with an undisclosed interest in the subject. Additionally the Google shill organisations were also involved in the enterprise spreading FUD across the internet. The main beneficiaries of a SOPA defeat were Google, and it is not far fetched at all to conclude that the communities were played by Google, using those that were favourable to them, and plying a little money in various places to keep every one sweet, or at least non neutral. I'm sure that no one came up to you and said here is 500K now blackout wikipedia, nothing so crass was done. But consider this, given what we know about Google manipulating governments, that Google wouldn't play you too, given the $billions that are involved in shady Google ad networks on pirate sites? John lilburne (talk) 13:16, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Sergei's donation was normal for him" – erm, no. It's the only time the Brin Wojcicki Foundation made such a donation (though it's true that Google donated $2M to the Wikimedia Foundation in 2010), and the timing, just after the spontanous and successful Italian Wikipedia blackout, has quite naturally caused speculation that people thought hey, what worked in Italy might work for SOPA too, and that Brin wanted to encourage, or express his gratitude, for the political support. Andreas JN466 12:47, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is not the only time that Brin has donated - there was another donation this year, in fact. And yes, it's perfectly ok for people to ask the question, but when it has been answered firmly and clearly, and zero evidence is offered, it's time to drop it. The Brin donation was neither an encouragement nor a thank you for the blackout. Sergei has been a friend and supporter of Wikipedia for years.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:53, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I did a search for any mention online of any other donation by Brin before I posted above, and could find none. Would you have a link?
There is circumstantial evidence. The sequence of events was as follows:
Again, when major policy changes occur in an organisation that benefit a third party, and that third party has just donated a large amount to that same organisation, people ask, cui bono. (Amazon's investment in Wikia, and their now being a payment processor for WMF is another such case.) That's just a normal part of scrutinising public organisations in a democratic society, and people always construct different narratives that appear plausible to them. Often, there is a kernel of truth in several of them. Andreas JN466 13:30, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
More than a hundred?!? Gosh! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:05, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you get big, someone's going to take a potshot at you at some point. It's inevitable. Doesn't mean we should ignore criticism, and in the past some of it's been quite fairly leveled, but a lot of it is half-true (if that) silliness. As to the allegation above that WMF would support deliberate defamation of critics, that could not only lose it 501(c)(3) status, but also get it sued into oblivion (and safe harbor protections don't apply if WMF initiated or approved the action). I don't always agree with WMF, but even aside from the fact that such an act would be a blatant breach of ethics for an officer of a charitable foundation, I think they're more than smart enough to know that would be a very, very bad idea. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:12, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am sure that nothing was "officially" done and that there'd be nothing to turn over in discovery were suit brought. I consider WMF misguided, but they aren't dumb. However, that's not relevant to what may have actually been done.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:01, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You are being obnoxious and you are factually wrong about all of this. Look at what you are saying: you are directly accusing me (and the Foundation) of not just lying, but lying and keeping things deliberately out of email in order to avoid discovery in case a suit were bought. That's just bonkers. A suit by whom, relating to what? Why on earth would we do that? You have absolutely no evidence, and the behavior you are suggesting has absolutely no precedence for Sue Gardner, for me, or for anyone else in any position of authority or influence here. You're just making up nonsense out of thin air.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:43, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand, this year's fundraiser just today matched last year's take, after only nine days of actually trying. Kind of hilariously, this was after the Fundraising Department explained in great detail how exceeding last year's take was unlikely. However, the Annual Plan was subsequently revised to project smaller fundraising growth this year than last, even though page views increased over the past year more sharply than in the previous three years (a flat slope on a semilog scale is exponential growth.) The Register is right to say that Wikimedia fundraising leaves much to be desired, but not in the way they describe. 67.41.200.185 (talk) 01:36, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes more than a hundred, but many are not anti WP, and certainly most are not "double digit liked" - I'm sure that many posts and likes are from "the usual suspects", but ultimately that sort of mud slinging only generates scorn for the slingers, or a defensive reaction. Constructive criticism, however, can actually change things. Rich Farmbrough, 05:27, 21 December 2012 (UTC).[reply]
And, with all that money, content contributors don't get any resources. I'm probably going to have to pay out of pocket for Washington Post and LA Times articles for improvement. Yet there's plenty of cash to blow on business cards. Where are our priorities?--Wehwalt (talk) 09:58, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What are you asking for? That you get a free subscription to use as you want? That the WMF, not get copy paper, or pencils, until you get a free subscription? How would you getting a free subscription with WMF funds, but the WMF office not getting office supplies work in reality? -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:25, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you should read the article (linked at the top of this thread: "But some of the spending has raised eyebrows. In the UK, the local chapter of WMF, Wikimedia Foundation UK, admitted to racking up a bill of £1,335 on business cards, calling it "a failure to make the most effective procurement choices". The UK foundation also found itself under close scrutiny after approving projects that personally benefited board members - which imperilled the foundation's hard-won charity status.". The WMF funds, particularly the ones that get "disseminated" to the local chapters, aren't being used wisely, and certainly aren't helping the content creators in any concrete way. --SB_Johnny | talk✌ 13:25, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"which imperilled the foundation's hard-won charity status" is just bollocks, as we call it in the UK. What the Register knows about UK charity status could be written on the back of a small postage stamp. Unfortunately they are not the only ones to make ill-informed comments on this subject. Johnbod (talk) 14:17, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not getting a direct benefit from those business cards as I chose not to apply for a set. But if having business cards makes it easier for some of my fellow volunteers to build relationships with the GLAM community then we all stand to benefit. Building relationships with museums and other cultural institutions is an important part of the chapter's job, the UK chapter has a good record of that sort of outreach. If you aren't aware of the link between outreach to museums and content building then I suggest you read Hoxne Hoard or look at some of the large image releases that people from the European chapters have negotiated. If we are going to have wikimedians conducting outreach to cultural institutions then supplying them with business cards sound like a sensible investment. That said those sound like an unusually expensive set of business cards, I know there was a mistake that resulted in a batch being reprinted, but it is a lot of money and hopefully future years won't be as expensive. ϢereSpielChequers 14:07, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Was there design work involved? How many sets were made? How many cards in total? One type of bad argument is when somebody throws around numbers without units of measure. Jehochman Talk 14:13, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see a lot of poor behavior on this page, and would urge those who are slandering, making legal threats and otherwise badgering Jimmy to drop it. (Note Wehwalt's not very subtle suggestion of a subpoena.) It may be fun to pursue conspiracy theories and play gotcha, but these games don't create value, and the people playing them merely damage their own reputations. Ask yourselves this question: on the whole, for all the money WMF takes in, do they deliver good value? I think you will be hard pressed to find a charity of similar size that does so much good for such an amount of money. Jehochman Talk 14:13, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"The No. 1 college basketball recruit has his own personal Wikipedian, and it sure does show. Let's compare his Wikipedia page, which is nearly as big as Michael Jordan's, to that of the No. 1 football recruit, Robert Nkemdiche. 71.202.122.192 (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing in the story to indicate the editing was "paid" in any sense. If there is an article someone had to write it, & the main editor of it writes a lot, mostly on subjects no one would be at all likely to pay for. Johnbod (talk) 23:40, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@71.202.122.192 Not sure what your exact point is, care to clarify? --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 08:28, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I could describe myself as Ted Alletson's Wikipedia biographer, but he's unlikely to pay me, given he's been dead for about 50 years. Sadly, none of the living people I've written FAs about have paid me either. Perhaps I'm still driving a slightly battered car because I include things in biographies that they might have preferred me to glide over or omit altogether. --Dweller (talk) 10:34, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can offer a better deal than Dweller and the quality won't suffer, much.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:20, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=529118931

Leave a Reply