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via press@wikia.com for The Signpost

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 01:48, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That email address will go to someone at Wikia, not to me personally, so perhaps better to contact me a different way?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:58, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'll try 2 addresses that have worked before (One was a long time ago!). I will remove from your user page "For inquiries about my personal views on some general topic, contact my assistant, Samantha, at press@wikia.com. She knows how to find me as quickly as possible," but will leave that address up for inquiries about Wikia. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:40, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh my that is so seriously out of date. I should update it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:58, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Since this is going to show up on your doorstep at some point See here. Why is Trust and Safety enacting local bans without any local wiki involvement from crats/arbcom? If its a trust and safety issue why are they not banned from all projects. If its a trust and safety issue why is the user going to be suddenly more trustworthy and safe for other users in a year's time here but are apparantly trustworthy and safe on all other wikis in the meantime? If whoever had this bright idea at the WMF thought this was the quiet way to handle this issue, have they ever actually visited ENWP? Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:39, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jimbo. Hope this finds you well. Not sure how involved you are in governance these days, but the matter of User:Fram being banned by WMF T&S as an "office action" is unprecedented and is certainly not doing anything to bring the ENWP community and WMF closer together. You would do well to at least ask some questions. Best regards, UninvitedCompany 22:17, 10 June 2019 (UTC) (Steve Dunlop/Arbitration committee 2006-2008)[reply]

It shocks me to discover that there is a shadowy behind the scenes cabal that can unilaterally block the account of one of the best admins here, remove his admin rights, disable his email, lock his talk page and respond to inquiries by saying "We aren't going to explain why we did this and there's nothing you can do about it. ". Stalinist. Tyrannical. If it can happen to Fram it can happen to any of us. Zero respect shown to the volunteers who make this project. Smeat75 (talk) 00:58, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What disturbs me even more is that the WMF's policy is that no appeal is available for Office actions. Not even to the WMF. Jimbo, something is starting to smell rotten in the state of Denmark, and I think we need you to look at reining them in, somehow. rdfox 76 (talk) 01:04, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I have ever posted on this user talk before...imagine that! I must be one of the few. In any case, this unilateral banning and the stonewalling surrounding it is very disturbing. Shearonink (talk) 02:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad to see I'm not alone in finding the lack of transparency deeply disturbing. I do hope Jimbo responds. Benjamin (talk) 06:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• No, no. Jimbo looking at the block itself is pointless. He has no business putting his fingers into such details, and T&S really shouldn't be giving him details of such cases, and he really shouldn't be (trying to) overruling T&S in any plausible circumstances.
  However, there are two issues it would be useful to look into: 1) how in the world could anyone imagine that taking this kind of action without good and immediate communication would not lead to a giant mess and possibly fatally wound the relationship between the community and the WMF; and 2) is the use of per-project and time-limited blocks really appropriate for the kinds of issues T&S should be dealing with?
  If the editor in question had been globally blocked indefinitely with an immediate message to that effect on some suitable noticeboard (and preferably with headsups to ArbCom and other trusted authorities) I would have shrugged and figured they had good reasons. With a partial and time limited ban it just looks like T&S has expanded its scope to step waaay down into what should (by any sane measure) be handled by the community, but without the accountability and control community processes operate under; and the lack of early communication, and the lacking (in the sense "poor": it addressed none of the community's genuine concerns) later communication, looks like real incompetence. Anyone that couldn't figure out (or, worse, didn't care that) this would be massively damaging to community trust should not be making decisions affecting this community without first taking remedial classes (and, yes, I am aware of all whom I include in that statement).
  Some fallout is inevitable and the cost of having important functions like T&S; but the actual current situation was easily avoidable. And "avoidable conflict" is starting to be a deeply embedded pattern for WMF interaction with enwp. --Xover (talk) 07:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  I take it back: this is absolutely grounds for Jimbo to wade into the fray and try to figure out what in the blazes is going on. Try as hard as I might, I can find no reasonable justifcation for this based on available evidence. --Xover (talk) 08:39, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is now a statement from Fram at Commons that has been copied over to WT:BN locally.[1] Yes this is crazy and if the WMF wants to micromanage Wikipedia at this level, it better be ready to handle a lot of routine vandal reversion and spelling corrections as well. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 08:54, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I was entirely unaware of this before just now. I'm reviewing the situation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:07, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, thanks for looking into it. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 09:11, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thanks for investigating Jimbo. This is a very serious situation - like many people I am staggered that an organisation which itself fights regularly for openness and transparency on the internet has taken such a step as this, especially for what are apparently very minor infringements. I very much hope the ban can be reversed because this risks permanent damage to the project. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 10:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would echo that. Behind-closed-doors banning of editors who criticise the competence of Arbcom etc is not something we should be condoning in the 21st century. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:28, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for looking into this. Bear in mind that, per WMF policy, paid editing is allowed with any one of three different ways of notifying people, your "bright line rule" is routinely violated without penalty and there is no interest in stopping it, outside media are calling attention to it, and there is nothing we can do about it. Every six months like clockwork for the next decade, like the last, Wikipedia will run an ad for Square Enix as "Today's featured article". WMF will say that it cannot stop the commercialism because "it has a hands-off policy". Yet it does this to Fram, to defend the right of a small cabal that supposedly settles disputes to supervote what articles to delete (nay, I should say censor, since this is from above us in every way) without hearing unpleasant criticism. Riddle out what inferences can be drawn and comes next after this. Wnt (talk) 12:10, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what Square Enix is and might have missed something, but maybe we can get a Mr. Robot tie-in like Firefox had. :-P 67.164.113.165 (talk) 19:24, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Jimbo, please note the ongoing discussion has been centralized at Wikipedia:Community response to Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram should you wish to follow it. — xaosflux ^Talk 13:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Jimbo, to preempt inevitable escalation, may I suggest that you unblock Fram? If Fram's summary of events is accurate, I don't see why we cannot discuss the reported infractions on-wiki and why Fram cannot be unblocked while that discussion takes place. And in case that summary is missing some important details, it would be useful if you or someone from T&S told us so explicitly. Speaking for myself, the lack of information and bureaucratic speak has been one of the most frustrating part of this brouhaha, and antithetical to the openness to participation and scrutiny that attracted me to the wikiprojects. Abecedare (talk) 15:19, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with most of this, but if Jimbo does that it will probably cause the atmosphere to catch fire or something. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm firmly recommending that we all relax a notch or two. It's not even 9am in California. There is no emergency here. I have raised the issue with the WMF, and so has Doc James. I am also talking to ArbCom. It is really important that we not take actions to escalate conflict - nor are such actions necessary. If there comes a need for a time for the community to firmly disagree with the WMF and take action, then that time is only after a proper reflection on the full situation, with everyone having a chance to weigh in.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• This is a horrific precedent: an unappealable "behavior" ban against one of WMF's leading critics -- very clearly an instance of score-settling, masquerading as a "trust and safety" matter. This should be overturned immediately and whomever pulled this powerplay taken into the woodshed, at a minimum. Fram is not everyone's cup of tea -- I'm a coffee guy, myself -- but this is obviously an instance of infighting and bureaucratic overreach. Carrite (talk) 19:08, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Jimbo, I think you are being too wimpy. It is the WMF, not us, that has provoked a confrontation. I don't know if Floquenbeam et al have unblocked Fram yet but I hope you will (also) unblock Fram. In fact it's best if you are the first one to do it. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 19:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Agreed with 67.164 on this one. Jimbo, I think we need you to step in and unilaterally override the ban, at least on a temporary basis while a body that's actually accountable to the community, while still signatory to the same NDAs as the T&S team, reviews it. rdfox 76 (talk) 19:36, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Fram has been correctly unblocked. I suggest you spend some time with your "team" ensuring they understand how the community works. This has been a stellar example of drawing the community closer against a common enemy: Fram is not universally popular yet editors from both sides issued dismay at the way in which WMF operated here. Less of the Stasi please. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:11, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I hope the community, including Jimbo, looks at this issue not only in isolation, as it is important to do, but also in the context of epidemic crackdowns on freedom of speech throughout our world by millions of bureaucratic fiefdoms, big and little, just as with, ironically, the crackdown I brought up "Expunge"_from_the_record , which Jimbo summarily dismissed as being anything which he could draw an opinion about. You see, unless we all start paying attention to all of the widespread crackdowns on freedom of speech, thought, and press (Assange, perhaps); wherever they might be, the foundation of our freedoms will be washed away 1 little stone at a time. To quote Dylan, paraphrasing, "there's something going on here and you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones."

I will tell you exactly what is going on, imo. We, the people, are being systematically brainwashed into giving up ( not having them taken away ) all of our precious freedoms of thought, speech, press and association, and its not just some kind of happenstance. It is an orchestrated self perpetuating cultural shift away from aspirational and community empowered governing bodies toward protective, moralizing and pushy governing bodies.

Voltaire said "the comfort of the rich depends upon an abundance of the poor". I'd say, the power of the top 1/100 of 1 % depends upon a shallow, self centred and limited focus by the masses. Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:05, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fram is blocked again, and Floquenbeam is desysopped. By their grace and majesty, WMF has assented to Floquenbeam having a new RFA after 30 days. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 02:04, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's not even been 48 hours since Fram was first blocked. I'm not happy with the inept way WMF has handled this but the comparisons with Stasi are over-the-top. We are talking about a nonprofit organization, not state-sponsored surveillance and suppression. I realize it is unprecedented for the English Wikipedia for a respected, longterm admin to be blocked for a year with insufficient explanation but can we all take a deep breath and wait for Jimbo's response (which I hope is coming)? Again, I'm not happy with how this has been handled but this is unlikely to be resolved immediately. This will be a marathon to make sure this doesn't happen again in this way, not a sprint. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:51, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I continue to advise calm and slow movement. Further wheel warring will not be productive and will only tend to escalate matters further. I am recommending the same to WMF, as is Doc James. We are discussing the situation with them in the hopes of finding the right way forward.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:10, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Something major needs to change here - and slow movement is just not the answer. The WMF has shattered community trust with this (ironic that it's an action from the Trust & Safety office). The WMF's power grab to take a more direct administrative role without responsibility, without an appeal process (seriously?), without transparency and without doing any of the spadework everyone else does. That move feels much less Deus ex machina than it does Diaboli ex machina. There are allegations of a possible COI in the Foundation's motivation which if true could lead to the removal of senior people in the organisation. Speeding the process up, or creating some breathing space would be beneficial: hit the reset button on Fram (block and desysop) and Floq (desysop), then use a closed-doors/in camera process through ArbCom - it would get rid of much of the very bad feeling this has generated. - SchroCat (talk) 08:33, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, per Schro. It is the WMF end that is moving fast and breaking things. We are the ones who want discussion and to restore the status quo ante until (at minimum) arbcom has checked out the complaints. Meanwhile responses are still proceeding in real time whether that's convenient for the WMF or not. The COI allegation Schro refers to is also cringe-inducing. I hope you can check into it. The WMF can stop the drama by reversing the actions and entering discussions. It's on them, not us. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 08:54, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[also posted on the main discussion talk page] The calm requested in these statements seems the best way to go for the good of all involved (personal and institutional). We all know that Fram will be unblocked with time served (days rather than weeks), and that a little cursing between friends is allowed from time to time. But not encouraged and certainly shows frustration at key moments. The ban choice of "a year" (or banned until the orbit of the Earth brings it back to this exact position to the Sun and not an inch sooner) seems extreme to the average onlooker. If Fram was banned for 72 hours for cursing at dad, sorry, office, then none of this would have occurred. No one should be fired or leave (mistakes happen, we've all been there), everyone should get their tools back, and the aforementioned Sun will come out tomorrow. Jeez, drama is viewer appealing, but "Office" could just unban Fram at a time certain, say, Friday, and everyone involved use this temporary release-valve as a great learning tool with built-in dramatic appeal. Randy Kryn (talk) 09:44, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Schro that slow movement is not the answer, but I disagree that any future process should be in camera until or unless there is agreement that there is something a lot more egregious than the use of the "fuck" word. I won't look for the dif because most of us remember well when Jimbo used the same word in reference to Doc James, and I only bring this up to illustrate how utterly stupid it is for WMF to even mention the use of that word in their reasoning. However, once again, I warn all of you against embracing the "go-slow" and dispassionate approach with this event. There is a time and place for passion, even within a community based upon logic, reasoning and cooperation. This action taken by WMF is, imo, an absolute invasion and attempted coup. No ifs ands or buts. They need to back off quickly and apologise to all of us, "surrender" in other words. If any of us think that its ok to just meekly try to work this out, you are forgetting that bullies, of all type, are only empowered when the bullied do not fight back. WMF has attacked 1 of us, punched him in the nose, and they must be punched back, not talked down.

Somebody or more than 1 at WMF must be fired for this. Full stop. Nocturnalnow (talk) 17:34, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nocturnalnow, Sorry, but I see it differently. It is understandable that passions are high, but that this does not remotely qualify as an emergency in the sense that irreparable harm will occur if actions are not taken immediately.

There are two main issues that need to be addressed, neither of which need to be resolved today or even this week:

1. What should be done about Fram?
2. How did we find ourselves in this situation and what can we do to ensure that it plays out better next time? S Philbrick(Talk) 18:28, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to do 2 first. We found ourselves in this situation because the T&S team, rather than referring an internal ENWP issue to existing dispute resolution, decided to bypass it and impose their own values and standards on a community that does not answer to them. The TOU issue is a red herring. I am not talking about the actual block of Fram, the previous actions (the pseudo-interaction ban-threat, the obvious monitoring of his editing when there is no safety or legal issue involved) are more problematic. Its over-reach and interference outside of their remit and it needs to be curbed now so we dont have more editors disappeared in the night because someone in T&S doesnt like that they say fuck, or that they tell editors who make terrible edits the truth. Its junta tactics to suppress political enemies and it needs to stop. Longtime what we can do to prevent it in future? Elect community representatives to the board who prepared to rein in the WMF staff and make it clear that the various wikipedia communities are *not* fiefdoms that require a WMF lord of the manor. RE 1. Fram shoud be unbanned. At this point anything less is going to go very very badly for the WMF. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:04, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree with OID. Fram's case should be -- and certain can be -- handled by normal en.wiki processes, the bypassing of which is the core of the outrage at these actions. These aren't Fram-fans complaining, they are English Wikipedia editors whose community's right to self-govern has been unilaterally usurped by T&S. Add that to the spector of a COI situation -- I am not at all convinced by the statement by the WMF chair, and, in fact, feel that her playing of the gender card indicates strongly her probable personal involvement in the actions taken -- and you have a compounded problem: that en.wiki's rights may have been stepped on at the urging of a high Foundation official with a strong Conflict of Interest. Thus, whatever investigation Jimbo Wales and Doc James are attempting to instigate via the Board needs to go deeper than simply examining the ham-fisted actions of T&S, it must discover why these apparently well-meaning people acted so rashly, provoking the very predictable community response. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's extremely unlikely that Raystorm was personally involved, and fairly offensive to say that her raising gender-related concerns indicates otherwise. But I think those gender-related concerns are preposterous in this case, and, sadly, that her relationship with the complainant probably did strongly influence T&S decisions about their Office action against Fram. EllenCT (talk) 03:31, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear, their involvement (Or non involvement) in the recent actions against Fram, or the earlier actions is irrelevant to me. What is clear from their comments is that they support the overreach of the T&S actions and that is not acceptable going forward. Plus comparing the outrage of the community here to gamergaters pretty much shows the hand there. Only in death does duty end (talk) 06:21, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sphilbrick, the only reason I said (above) that slow is not the answer is that there has been significant damage in the trust between WMF and the community because of this rather crass and rash action. To stop further damage and move everyone forward to repairing that relationship is to take positive steps as soon possible before there is any further damage. Mileage may vary on that point, but I think the sooner they act positively, the better off all parties will be in the long run. - SchroCat (talk) 20:12, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@JW. The wheel-warring does seem to have stopped: fair play to ye for (so far) convincing the WMF (so good). ——SerialNumber54129 17:06, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Floq was desysopped at 1.30am, so I presume there was some internal discussion about what to do before the trigger was pulled. I wouldn't get too excited until they make their next statement... - SchroCat (talk) 20:12, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Good work, Jimmy, stopping the wheel-warring. Now step 2 here is to get WMF to walk back their mistake, unbanning Fram. They can growl at En-WP at the same time if they want to, that's fine. But they breached the established system for dealing with behavioral violations and they need to accept where the line is. A few emails to bosses of the people who did the dumb-dumb would probably do the trick... They made a mistake. They need to own it. Carrite (talk) 00:53, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that direct requests by board members of line workers through middle management are even worse now than all the times they happened in the past, when they were atrocious. The Board should decide whether all bans (and adverse permission removals) are appealable to Jimbo[2] and he should void them. If the Board doesn't see it that way then Jimbo should lead a fork, as he's in the best position to host everything immediately, get search engines to refocus, and take all the functionaries along. EllenCT (talk) 03:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, to the best of my knowledge, there haven't been any direct requests by board members to line workers through middle management here. Certainly, James and I are speaking to the board and CEO, not attempting to intervene at that level at all. The board should only operate at the level of broad principles and through the top management, not detailed management of specific issues.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:55, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: Pageviews Analysis for "Wikipedia:Community response to the Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram", with some other pages for comparison. In a little over a day, 248 editors commented, 316 added the page to their watchlist, and just yesterday, the page was viewed nearly 30,000 times. 2601:194:300:130:B411:EE39:555:7658 (talk) 15:31, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Jimbo Wales: The head of T&S just made a statement threatening that any edits by the recently-unblocked user will be responded to with a global lock of their account. It appears that your advice against escalation was not heeded, unfortunately. --Yair rand (talk) 22:09, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I can not believe he was the guy behind superprotect. I suggest that community trust should be a necessary requirement for working in Trust and Safety. EllenCT (talk) 00:36, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Don't mean to bother you, but I just saw those edit wars people have been having on your user page recently. I mean, WTF??😂 Seriously though, not good, is it?👿 GOLDIEM J (talk) 15:32, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Routine vandalism. That happens to high-profile pages, but in the case of a page as well-watched as this it is usually instantly reverted. Not good, but then the world is not perfect. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:42, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Fram mess, and the demonstrative bans and warnings of admins on other language Wikis, seems like an inexplicable aberration of top-down control. But there have been many such aberrations on the internet, and they all seem to have the same source. If you trace the flight of racists and far-right commentators (it happens to moderate-left also but they seem less voluble), from YouTube demonetization and Twitter crackdowns to the actions against Gab (social network) and Hatreon, the common mechanism is practically the same as that of the one-sided enforcement of the "deal" with Iran: the big banks are organized and they are throwing their weight around. They control the money on which everything else depends, and they tell people what they're allowed to say all over the internet under a hundred brand names of local managers. So the question is: is WMF getting mandates, either directly from the payment processors or indirectly via Tides Foundation requirements, that are requiring it to impose top-down management according to what would otherwise be laudable principles against racism and bullying, or more sinister principles against criticism of the capitalist order? Wnt (talk) 11:15, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is one of the more ridiculous questions I have ever received here. I'm sorry, Wnt, but you're veering lately into a place that is really far from reality and very close to bonkers conspiracy theories. Let me answer your question directly: no, the WMF is not getting mandates from payment processors or the Tides Foundation. I can go a step further, none of those organizations, and no corporate entities, have approached us in any way about any of our community or editorial policies. The idea that they would is ludicrous.

And, by the way, there are very good reasons that I fully support for a lot of the YouTube demonetizations and Twitter crackdowns.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:52, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This reminds me of the time I met an elderly gentleman on the subway. He was very affable, but clearly not quite right. He kept insisting that "the real power behind the throne" was Arby's. Ever since, whenever I hear overwrought theories of causality, I think back to that encounter. Part of me wishes the Roast Beef Illuminati were real, and/or would finally divulge themselves. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:04, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's those discount coupons, I tell you!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:33, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for this response. It is great to hear an assurance this didn't happen here, even though it does happen to more outspoken purveyors of unfiltered conversation. I hope this also means that WMF has freedom to maneuver back in the direction of glasnost. Wnt (talk) 21:54, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To: María Sefidari (User:Raystorm), Christophe Henner (User:Schiste), Dr. Dariusz Jemielniak (User:Pundit), Dr. James Heilman (User:Doc James), Jimmy Wales (User:Jimbo Wales), Nataliia Tymkiv (User:NTymkiv (WMF))

Dear members of the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees (or rather, those of you with public user accounts):

I am one of probably many Wikipedia users writing to you about the matter of the Wikimedia Foundation's office's ban of the English Wikipedia user Fram, as documented at en:Wikipedia:FRAM.

I am an administrator on the English Wikipedia since 2006. I am not involved, as far as I recall, in any disputes involving Fram or other users involved in this matter, and do not personally know any of them.

As you will know, this dispute has resulted in a grave crisis of confidence on the part of very many English Wikipedia users with respect to Foundation staff. I urge you to give this matter your full attention. In particular, I'd like to ask you and the Board to, as quickly as reasonably possible:

• establish publicly, to the extent possible consistent with applicable privacy rules, who among Foundation officials imposed or authorized sanctions against Wikipedia users in this case, and on which specific grounds, and

• communicate to the community of users the measures you took to remedy the situation, and to ensure that such a crisis of confidence will not reoccur.

Thank you for your service on behalf of our common project.

Sandstein 17:02, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

1. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:34, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
2. Echoing. I may have initially commented as to know why Fram was even banned, but have been uninvolved otherwise.—CYBERPOWER (Chat) 20:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
3. This is needed at a minimum to even begin trying to restore trust. —A little blue Bori v^_^v ^Bori! 22:21, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't understand why it would be necessary or helpful to say which employee authorized the problematic actions. --Yair rand (talk) 22:26, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Because right now there's two plausible scenarios: Either T&S is going the 1984 route or T&S is being used to win a dispute between two editors. Neither looks good for them at all. —A little blue Bori v^_^v ^Bori! 22:32, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Accountability sucks. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 22:29, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What's the objective? Get the WMF to fire them? Ban their non-staff accounts? Know not to elect them for any particular user rights or positions? Many at the WMF seem to think there would actually be a risk of harassment or IRL threats, which is something to take into account. --Yair rand (talk) 23:10, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

1. At this point, Trust and Safety won't be trusted by enwiki again with anything less than this. rdfox 76 (talk) 01:34, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for this request, but I think the specifics are misplaced. This is not about individual people, this is a question about our constitutional order. This is not about this specific situation, but a much more important and broader question about project governance.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:58, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I very much agree, and must note I feel a great deal of relief to hear that this is your perspective on the issue. A discussion that is about broader governance issues also has a much better chance of being constructive, and I would urge everyone to focus their energies on that. The current situation is by no means an ideal starting point for that conversation but it does present us an opportunity to squeeze something positive from it. There is attention now, from all parties and at all levels, which lets us have a conversation that would not otherwise be possible. It's also a unique opportunity to demonstrate how great this community is at its best and when we pull together, instead of letting our outrage (whether one considers it justified or not) be our defining characteristic. And win, draw, or lose, a resolution to the broader governance issues will also resolve the immediate issues surrounding individuals. --Xover (talk) 07:27, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You do realize that if you had used your founders bit and re-sysopped Fram, and then started an action against him by your authority on arbcom as a private wikipedian, people all over would be cheering you as the saviour of the enwiki? But that isn't the way to let duly constituded bodies work properly, is it? Both the foundation and the arbcom are your sole creations, and they are now clashing as to what their proper bailiwick is. It must be like watching two siblings squable. I wonder if you have ever watched either movie production of Lion in Winter, or better yet a theatrical production? At some point you have to decide, whether the community or the foundation is your true heir. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 09:32, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think you underestimate the complexity of the situation. If we characterize this as a clash between ArbCom and the WMF, we are factually in error. It's not as easy as that.

And of course, if I were to take a dramatic action, some would cheer, and some would scream. And if I go slow and deliberate, some will not like that, either. But it is my way, the only way that I know, and when I stick to slow and thoughtful deliberation I have learned in my life that the outcome is better than if I do something sudden.

I suppose if I had to decide "whether the community or the foundation is my true heir" I'd go with community. But I actually don't think in that way. My true heir is Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. That's what I think we all care the most about, or anyway it is what we should all care the most about. One of the reasons that Wikipedia has succeeded is that we don't take anything as absolutely permanent. WP:IAR and WP:5P5 spring to mind.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:45, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

we don't take anything as absolutely permanent -- That's true enough but are you contrasting the necessity/valuation of WMF with the community (I don't believe at the first place, that they can be easily separable, in light of the large overlaps in certain domains), by this yardstick? If so, how do you run a Wikipedia, w/o community? ∯WBG^converse 09:56, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, I wasn't trying to contrast or compare the necessity/valuation of the WMF with the community at all. I agree with you that they aren't easily separable, and I also believe that when we fall into a too hasty 'WMF vs community' narrative - either in the community, or in the WMF, we are probably making it harder to see how to optimize and resolve problems.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am purposefully acting the jester and a jester has to simplify things to bring them to a relief. I know there are things I don't know and there are also things I know for sure, and I fully expect that there is a future in which I will not at the very least know less than I know now. I am going with having just seen at least one cow with atleast oneside of its body that is black. But I could find out later that that was just a lifesize cardboard cutout. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 10:08, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Moo!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]