16 May 2024
News and notes: Democracy in action: multiple elections Special report: Will the new RfA reform come to the rescue of administrators? Arbitration report: Ruined temples for posterity to ponder over – arbitration from '22 to '24 In the media: Deadnames on the French Wikipedia, and a duel between Russian wikis Op-Ed: Wikidata to split as sheer volume of information overloads infrastructure Comix: Generations Traffic report: Crawl out through the fallout, baby
Single page Front page About Subscribe Suggestions Archives

• Archive
• Archive 2

New messages: [1]

Hi Cygnis,

I think we should stick with general English unless there's a particular reason for local pronunciations. Since Albany is pronounced the same in Aussie as in RP or GA, there's no point in making our non-Australian readers bone up on Australian phonetics before they can be sure what it's supposed to sound like. Many of them already have a difficult time with the IPA. Also, most Aussie place names are given in general English, so we have two competing systems. The pron-en-au template hasn't been in active use for a couple years now. When I created it, there was some interest in it and I thought it might go somewhere, but it hasn't, so I'd like to phase it out. That would bring Australia into line with other Anglophone countries. In the dozen or so cases where the Australian pronunciation is notably distinct, we can always link directly to the Australian English phonology article. Making Australian distinct from English is rather like Americans insisting on using imperial units; the logical conclusion of that approach is to have pron-en-liverpool and pron-en-brooklyn etc. templates and making Wikipedia less accessible. kwami (talk) 23:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The phon-en template links to a generic English IPA key that basically acts as a "sound-alike" key. For example, English cities are transcribed with ars in them, even though their inhabitants speak non-rhotic dialects. If /ɑr/ is defined as the sound in 'car', then it doesn't really matter, because each reader will pronounce it with or without an [ɹ], depending on the way they say 'car'. So, yes, it is adequate for Australian cities, but won't give you an Australian accent. If all we want to say is that it's pronounced with a flat rather than broad A, then pron-en is perfectly adequate. (We might also want to add a footnote to make this explicit.) If, however, we wish to indicate exactly how the inhabitants themselves pronounce the name of their city, in their own accent, then we need something more precise. What we do with most English-speaking cities is link to pron-en for the generic international pronunciation (including phonemic differences that matter to people, like whether the A is broad or flat), and then say "locally X", where X links to help:IPA. In the case of Australia, we can instead link to a dedicated phonology article, which I think is more useful. It's just that, in the case of Albany, I don't see a point in doing so. It wouldn't hurt, of course, though it might confuse people why we'd bother to say, "Template:Pron-en, with a flat A, locally [ˈælbəni]." kwami (talk) 00:56, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

youire still up for air me mat e from the sou th - trust all is well in your parts of the shire - and that its all in working order SatuSuro 15:51, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

wow thats a lot of upmerging why i dont even do that many cats in the same time :( SatuSuro 15:52, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

yeah well over-editing on wikipedia - melbourne for easter - surf comp, afl and comedy fest all in one weekend with the younger two teenagers - should have got to albany by now - must try and still plan to come down soon - its my dissapear time - i better go - catch ya later SatuSuro 16:03, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You dare question Tasmanian iconicity? wow you must be from albany :) SatuSuro 23:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Refs? ah thats a big ask at some hundreds of tas stubs :) SatuSuro 23:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

good an unusual time of day to speak - gotta go kids to school ect - till later SatuSuro 00:02, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I thoink my talk page might or not amuse - the espanol message made me think i was in Hobart - ahh to have the cool wellington breeze pierce through the thermals again - I hope to find some PD images of the cunning little buggers sometime - any thoughts of where or how? SatuSuro 23:45, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:LEAD, the lead must summarize the whole article, including criticisms. Removing the criticisms is inappropriate. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 18:52, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Cygnis ... if you have a look at the cleanup project created to tackle the problem GrahamBould caused, you'll see why no admin is willing to unblock him. That's the definition of a community ban--when none of the over 3,000 admins is willing to unblock a user. Or in this case, given the legal danger he put the project in, no admin will unblock him without facing calls for him to be desysopped. If you want to discuss it, though, you're more than welcome to start a discussion at WP:AN. Blueboy96 19:30, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the context template on your user page puts the page in the category of articles needing context. If you're doiong it as a joke, may I suggest using the following instead? WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 19:33, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ta! cygnis insignis 19:53, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your picture. ;)Gustavocarra (talk) 14:44, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Cygnis, Could you please explain your reasoning for reversing my edit on the Yagan article as against the NPOV policy? My edit was as follows:

original: Throughout the repatriation process, many sections of the international media treated the story as a joke. One example given by Adam Shoemaker is a US News & World Report story headlined Raiders of the Lost Conk, in which Yagan's head is referred to as a "pickled curio", and Colbung's actions are treated as a publicity stunt; this treatment stands in stark contrast to the respectful tone in which the same newspaper covered the work of International War Crimes inspectors uncovering mass grave sites in former Yugoslavia.[20]

edit: removal of: this treatment stands in stark contrast to the respectful tone in which the same newspaper covered the work of International War Crimes inspectors uncovering mass grave sites in former Yugoslavia.[20]

My reason for the edit was that the removed fragment only serves to advance the author's opinions, not to enhance anyone's knowledge of Yagan. While it contains a "cited fact", that fact is inappropriate to the current context. The description of the 'pickled curio' article makes a clear enough case that the story was treated as a joke by the media. The fact that the discovery of mass graves in Yugoslavia were not treated as a joke by US News & World Report is both obvious and irrelevant; the only purpose such a statement serves in this context is to equate the Yagan situation with the latter war crimes, which is editorialising. It was in the spirit of making one small stab towards a more NPOV in a remarkably non-neutral (as noted by numerous other users on the talk page) article that I removed that small fragment. Unfortunately the original author of the article appears to be quite determined to undo any changes which others make in attempting to help it conform to wikipedia's NPOV standards.

Anyway, I'd appreciate your input. Thanks for the, um, neutral, welcome:-)

67.188.117.117 (talk) 11:36, 12 May 2009 (UTC)Kay[reply]

Still dont have a definitive site but the stuff on that page now gives some good indication as to possible location, from bit I have read the town was moved a couple of times before being abandoned altogether, the cemetery site was why I came into looking for. I've also been sidetracked after starting that and hadnt revisited, thanks for the reminder. Gnangarra 12:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia talk:Orphan#This maintenance template should be placed on the talk page you wrote "Image missing, coordinates missing, I assumed that editors here are aware of those community discussions" I am not. Could you place links into the statement on the Orphan talk page to the discussions? --PBS (talk) 11:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No. But then I have not looked. Like you I try ignore the problem. Usually I only rant if when removing such stuff someone starts to argue there is consent to place this stuff at the top of a page, I have been involved in. The latest one I have had is a bot that stuffs a copyright violation onto pages which clearly originate on Wikipeida, [2], my comment to that is now in the bots talk page july archive, but I have just noticed that it still doing it (User talk:Coren#Royal Prerogative (United Kingdom)) Sigh! -PBS (talk) 08:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How have I misread the naming convention for Thylacine page? The only mention of bold'ing text is in reference to alternative names (like "Tasmanian Tiger" and "Tasmanian Wolf"). The scientific name usually isn't considered an alternative name, at least not here at Wikipedia: Nearly every animal page on Wikipedia uses italics only for the scientific name. The scientific name, in this case, does not seem to warrant any special treatment. At the very least, assuming I haven't missed something simple, we have identified a weak spot in the MoS that should be fixed. Jason Quinn (talk) 18:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You have answered your own question, and I agree it is not an alternative name; those refer to the authoritative, verifiable name. If the redirects from the significant alternates are in bold, why isn't the ubiquitously cited name? If it were the title it would be both italic and bold, I assume you noticed this while you were reading every fauna article in our document. Anyway, good news!, someone agreed with you, maybe they saw it as distracting the reader from the IPA for one of the common names. cygnis insignis 11:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

El lobo marsupial o tilacino (nombre científico Thylacinus cynocephalus), también conocido como lobo de Tasmania, tigre de Tasmania y tilacín, fue un marsupial carnívoro del Holoceno. Era nativo de Australia y Nueva Guinea y se cree que se extinguió en el siglo XX. Se trataba del último miembro viviente de su género (Thylacinus), viviendo los otros miembros en tiempos prehistóricos a partir de principios del Mioceno.

— es:Thylacinus cynocephalus

I ended up starting a debate over at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tree_of_life#To_bold_or_not_to_bold_the_scientific_name_of_a_species.3F regarding this issue. It seems that the community is split regarding if a scientific name is an alternative name or not and if the bolding should occur. I welcome you to bring your opinion into the conversation. Jason Quinn (talk) 14:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For those interested in bold Thylacines, some new things yous can put in the article. Here is the first English description and reference,from the Sydney Gazette and New South Wales Advertiser of Sunday 21 April 1805: An animal of a truly singular and novel description was killed by dogs the 30th of March on a hill immediately contiguous to the settlement at Yorkton Port Dalrymple ; from the following minute description of which, by Lieutenant Governor Paterson, it must be considered of a species perfectly distinct from any of the animal creation hitherto known, and certainly the only powerful ard terrific of the carniverous and voracious tribe yet discovered on any part of New Holland or its adjacent Isands. &c. &c. &c." You can read the detail for yourself here [3]. He likened it to a hyaena, and in fact they were often referred to as "hyaenas" in the complaints of the Van Diemen's Land Company about them killing sheep. And here is a story about one grabbing a child: "A curious circumstance happened at Mr. Blinkworth's, Jerusalem, the other day. A native tiger, as it is called, boldly entered his cottage, where his family was assembled, and seized one of the little children by the hair, but fortunately missed its bite. Mr. Blinkworth who was confined to the house wilh a lame hand, alertly seized the animal by the tail and dashing it on the ground speediiy killed it." True. Read all about it in the Hobart Town Courier of 17 April 1830, here. [4]. regards Keepitshort (talk) 16:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Very impressive work on the Gazette issue. Let me know when you get through all the issues at the NLA, OK? (How much automation is there in the layout you've done for Wikisource? there's various key documents that could be done the same way, but re-doing a whiole issue (mostly of minimal intrerest) is a high price to pay for the bit one wants to cite. But if there's a reasonable degree of layout automation, it might be worth it. However, right now I'm assembling all the references cited by anyone on the "History wars" talk page in the (probably optimistic) hope that this will lead the debaters to agee to cite for and against and leave it NPOV, instead of having a minor History war on the side. "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be collateral damage" department. On identity, there's some really interesting themes, eg Russell Ward's the Australlian legend (we are all bushmen, eg Clancy of the overflow - now out of vogue, but lingering). Then you've got that "Faces of Australia" thing with the blended photos of a representative sample. There was a neat cartoon on the Cronulla "Riots" with a Leyton Hewitt figure fighting someone in a turban? and an aboriginal guy standing out back saying "when you get around to decideing who was here first ..." or some such. There's QANTAS's "we are Australian". It's probably a coffee-table book rather than Wiki, but. regards Keepitshort (talk) 13:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ta. I'll be sure to let you know! Some automation, if I ken your meaning; but it is as you describe it, laborious if one is uninterested in the subject. Newspapers are very tricky, the NLA have undertaken a great work. I will take requests, with a vague promise to complete them 'sometime', preferably in that place. cygnis insignis 13:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have been waiting for more people to add to the discussion although it has died down now. I think this issue requires a much bigger debate. This would be a HUGE policy change affecting many, many articles. The Thylacine page is unimportant. Do whatever you like with it for now. This issue deserves a much larger discussion and I have been considered starting an RFC about it. Jason Quinn (talk) 16:12, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is no policy change! Redirects are put in bold, the reader 'knows' - perhaps after navigating the taxonomy - that he has arrived. You pointed out it would both bold and italic if it were the title, you presumably see the reason for that. RFC is always to some extent 'noisy', and 'not always' productive, please consider: the benefits to the reader, the productivity of those editors with a vested interest in these articles, the potential disruption of those with no interest or significant contributions to the articles, and my assurance that there are many more articles that already follow this convention (have done for years!). A few editors changed a number of articles; that is not the basis for a policy change, especially without any compelling rationale. There is are more urgent matters for attention in our biota articles, such as expanding their content. cygnis insignis 16:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will undo it now. I'm sorry about that--- I just wanted to start a discussion on the topic in a new section.Likebox (talk) 17:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I put a copy of your comment in the original spot, and linked to the next section. I hope it is ok. If you want to delete the second copy, please do so. Sorry about that.Likebox (talk) 17:39, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I already drafted the article in user space (User:Likebox/HistoryWars), at least for the part that is there. The new sources I introduced kept on getting deleted.Likebox (talk) 17:45, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

thanked and noted. cygnis insignis 17:48, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know whether this is appropriate to ask, but the edits have recently gone through a little edit war. I reported PBS for 3RR, but nothing happened. I am just asking you, if you have time, if you could perhaps merge the two version until something neutral comes out, because PBS will block me if I touch the page again. I understand if you don't want to get involved too, or if your opinion on neutrality is not the same as mine.Likebox (talk) 00:12, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

G'day Cobber. Sorry for my tardy reply but I'll look at him shortly. Will need to get cracking for dyk-I can knock something up. –Moondyne 23:48, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On June 29, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Lhotsky, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Wizardman 02:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well done. –Moondyne 04:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What about Help:namespace, then? kwami (talk) 17:42, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Cygnis, Thanks for your message - I'll add the updated references, it turns out that the original Isle of Tortuga site (run by Dutch maritime historian Mr Mark Bruyneel)no longer exists, but all of the relevant info has been moved to a new site. FYI: a Dutch historian recently published a children's book on Piracy and to celebrate the event he invited all descendants (including my father & younger brother) to the city of Hoorn, where they were "kidnapped" to the local museum and released to share a drink with the author. Whatever happened to Simon the Dancer's treasure? My apologies for this tardy reply, I've been more active on the Dutch & Indonesian wikis lately, not to mention Uncyclopedia to keep a healthy perspective on "facts & fiction". Cheers for now, and keep up the good work Frankly speaking (talk) 11:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly.

For your misguided attempts at sarcasm, and the assumption that I don't have a sense of humor. ;) –blurpeace ^(talk) 12:37, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

LOL! I am probably going to cop it! See my further contributions to the Yagan debate ;-) Melba1 (talk) 06:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lol. Savour the moment ... or something. :-) Graham87 16:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You wanted an illustration?

--Tony Wills (talk) 04:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I want an illustration ... oh,

Very purdy! Cheers, cygnis insignis 07:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In Tea and Sugar Train it says;

The train travelled along the world's longest stretch of straight track, which is straight for 310 miles (498 kilometres).

So, take your pick, but whatever you pick, make it consistent. 77.163.159.230 (talk) 19:04, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeh, I suppose that was a bit lazy. I put what I know here. cygnis insignis 09:44, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cygnis, the removed statement read For most people a common name in their own language has more appeal because it is easier to pronounce and remember than the Latin scientific name; they also often convey cultural and historical or other associations that are not so evident in Latin (e.g. barking owl, German shepherd). It is common names, not scientific names, that are the major currency of everyday communication about organisms. There are several important points made here about common names:

• Ease of pronunciation
• Ease of remembering
• That they convey cultural or other associations

In the examples given (barking owl etc.) the actual organism referred to by the common name is irrelevant - it was the "content of the name itself" that was being referred to - you seem to have missed this point. In my view this statement is uncontentious, it is not demeaning the utility of scientific names as you seem to assume. My concern is that the important points being made have been removed. Could you please re-edit the sentence to remove the "opinion" but yet still making these key points dispassionately please? Otherwise I think it best for me to revert again.Granitethighs (talk) 02:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the "Triumph Of Truth (Who Is Watching The Watchers?" has found a suitable place on the web (which, unlike wikipedia, has room for everything), and hopefully we won't have to deal with this non-notable conspiracy theory here again. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 18:26, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For this. :) Cheers, →javért ^stargaze 21:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I could not understand what you were trying to say on my talk page. However, see the Common Names article talk page for latest developments thanks. Granitethighs (talk) 10:56, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On the Madame Berthe's Mouse Lemur page, why did you change it to read "one of the smallest primates" if you agree that it is the smallest of the mouse lemurs (same sentence)? Mouse lemurs are the smallest primates, so if Madame Berthe's Mouse Lemur is the smallest of them, then it would be the smallest primate species in the world. Even the smallest monkey, the Pygmy Marmoset is four times its size by weight. What else, besides a yet undiscovered mouse lemur species, is possibly smaller? –Visionholder (talk) 13:33, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What a lovely name, I meant to discover a bit about that page title. The Philippine 'monkey' was where I started, which referred to the second smallest Microcebus as the "smallest primate". The refs I glanced through indicate this Tarsius is the smallest primate, which is what I had in mind, and referred to as the "smallest monkey". It is still all a bit of a mess, this monkey business with the nomenclature. I found an interesting comment on this at Talk:Prosimian today. cygnis insignis 14:30, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed the Philippine 'monkey' page and added a ref, as well as the Lemur page (which I'm currently re-writing offline). –Visionholder (talk) 17:30, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

However, those references seem to contradict the citation "Dammhahn M, Kappeler PM. 2005. Social system of Microcebus berthae, the world's smallest primate. Int J Primatol 26(2):407-35." cygnis insignis 15:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are many recent sources that can be used to cite for this. The problem is that a lot of people will pick up a 20-year-old book on primates, read about the Pygmy Mouse Lemur and insist that their published reference is just as reliable (ignoring the fact that it's out-dated). In time I will get all of these inconsistencies tracked down and cleaned up. For now, though, I have bigger fish to fry... like my rewrite of the Lemur article. –Visionholder (talk) 17:30, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your cleanup of the disambig; looks better! Just so you know, the standard consensus established at wikiproject botany / horticulture is (as in the scientific community) to abbreviate genus prefixes in a list of plants where there is no ambiguity if they are left out.

Peace and Passion ☮ ("I'm listening....") 00:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ta, it's one way of handling it. I'm aware that they can be, which I do to avoid being tedious, but I often find it necessary to expand them. I occasionally find myself having to page up to the genus name, it seems some believe it should be abbreviated whenever possible, it is especially distracting when multiple species or genera are mentioned. The convention is probably well known to the general reader, and unambiguous in any following occurence, but I tend to show restraint anyway. In this case there is no downside, no prose considerations, and ambiguity is inherent in that type of page ;-) cygnis insignis 01:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, not done yet. I still have to rework the lead and remove {{inuse}} WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 17:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Now done. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 17:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I did not remove them! I have to limit my editing of the Naming conventions, or face more accusations like this one. So why not register your wish to revert the changes and the reasons why, and providing they are reasonable I will back you up, and providing there are not serious objections, you can do the reversal yourself. --PBS (talk) 18:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See these edits by User:M --PBS (talk) 18:37, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You know, I remember that revert, and afterwards, I thought -- maybe they were correct. But I didn't take the effort to revert-the-revert. I think it seems okay. Tiggerjay (talk) 21:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your thoughts. To deal with a few of your points:

• Pretending these newly coined english names, divorced from actual common usage, can replace their universal referents creates a battle-ground. - in over 99% of the cases involved the names are not newly coined, they are one common name picked over another. Birds are no respecters of linguistic boundaries and the unfortunate fact is that there is no "right" way to pick between Rough-legged Hawk versus Rough-legged Buzzard. Both are right, for a given value of right. Both have deep roots. We can't have both in the article title. By choosing the IOC route we are trying to take away the need to make this choice - instead we go with what they suggest. We'll win some and lose some but the process reduces the need for endless constant fights (except of course that it doesn't always do so).
• We are telling the reader that their perfectly legitimate common name, perhaps meaningful in an ethnobiological context, is deprecated, wrong, based on the arbitration of single committee created a couple years ago - again, no, we are not. We are simply putting the article somewhere. We can't put it everywhere, that would be forking. We have to put it somewhere, right? You do understand this, I know you do. There are only a tiny number of commonly known birds that have been given completely novel names, and most of these have been in intractable situations where the fight between two names are simply too hard to sort out. And the system is not without opportunities for even the smallest reader to change them, the IOC welcomes comments with open arms. I have made extensive comments backed up with research on one name I think is intolerable, and have been rewarded with a nice email back, and explanation of why that happened (lack of communication) and a promise to discuss it at length at the next set of changes. They have recently changed a whole swathe of New Guinean bird names because again there was a lack of communication, these have been moved back to what was the more common ame used by those that are familiar with the birds.
• The IOC cites this project as evidence of acceptance, this mutual reinforcement is highly problematic in itself. The apparent need for each to refactor the others faux-taxonomy of English names suggests that we are not reporting facts, we are helping to create them; with our web dominance, our Google ranking, and as a embryonic nomenclators proxy. - unavoidable. Our position as the higest ranking search for so many things means that we cannot help but influence the debate one way or the other. The act of recording the world invariably changes the world. Sabine's Sunbird talk 21:52, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is to inform you that the removal of exceptions to the use of Common Names as the titles of Wikipedia articles from the the Talk:Naming_Conventions policy page, is the subject of a referral for Comment (RfC). This follows recent changes by some editors.

You are being informed as an editor previously involved in discussion of these issues relevant to that policy page. You are invited to comment at this location. Xandar 22:29, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[5] Hesperian 01:22, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that you again reversed BrixtonBoy's edit about the mills being a metaphor for churches. This is a recognised theory. I do not believe it, but someone has advanced it. It has been referenced and so should join the other theories about the meaning of Blake's poem. I would be grateful if you did not start an edit war over this. JMcC (talk) 08:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It does not really matter who said what and when. If I have the sequence of events wrong, then I apologise unreservedly. However I think the point still stands: there is a theory that the mills are churches. It is not our job to pass judgement on whether we agree with them or not. It should be mentioned if it is properly referenced. If the theory has not been added to your satisfaction, would you edit it rather than deleting it? JMcC (talk) 14:41, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's a great idea. There's this link which I am sure you've read, which would be a great start. He seems to have been a very great man. I am not a historian, though, and my competence is limited, but I would love to read what you write.Likebox (talk) 22:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've copied the relevant discussion to Talk:Elaine Morgan (writer). WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 12:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your statement on talk:elaine morgan, it is greatly appreciated. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 02:20, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I like the way you think. We're naturally going to have people with nothing serious to contribute, so it is better to have them spinning their wheels on pointless lists than trying to write articles and failing miserably in the process. - Biruitorul ^Talk 03:28, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do you just not like templates? I find it a useful way of sorting information in a visual way. What exactly is uncited about it, and since when did templates need to be cited? Please explain. Lithoderm 21:19, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I undid my edit. Let me know when you have time to discuss it. cygnis insignis 05:38, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

please don't try to manage things that you don't understand.

The help page about interlanguage links (have you read it ?) indicates that "an interlanguage link is mainly suitable for linking to the most closely corresponding page in another language". In the case of es:Elephantidae we have 2 possibilities : Elephantidae or Elephant. When reading the spanish article it seem clear that the most closely corresponding page is Elephant. So this interlanguage link must be added to Elephant, not to Elephantidae.

Furthermore, the interwikis are maintained mainly by bots. These bots, in automatic mode, are unable to maintage interwikis when they are refering to different pages. So the operator must act manually. But it's a complex operation because some languages have only one page, whereas others have 2. The manual resolution can be impossible. So when you want to move an interwiki from one page to another (what I did with oc, la and an Elephantidae because I don't have opinion about them and don't want to make an edit war...) you must also update the other language pages to solve conflits. It took me one hour. So stop reverting if you are not able to make the correction properly.

The situation on articles Elephant and Elephantidae is not perfect, because some of the articles interlanguaged with Elephant could (should ?) be transfered to Elephantidae. But the person who will make these transfers must update interwikied pages, and refer to the content of the article, not just the name.

I know you didn't even opened the interlanguaged pages of Elephantidae because you restored de:Elephantidae, which is a redirect to de:Elefanten !

If you don't have other arguments than the name of the page (pt:Elefante is more similar to Elephantidae than es:Elephantidae (please don't correct it if you don't do it on all Elephantidae interlanguage links)). Don't make your decision just because of the infobox, because the important is the content.

I'm not a newbee on interlanguage resolution (and do more with my bot account), you should try to trust me when I say that I know what I do ;).

Regards

--Hercule (talk) 12:59, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I never insulted you or anybody here. I'm just trying to explain you that you don't know anything about interwikis and should try to think that I know what I do. I would never think explaining you how to write articles here...

I just tell you exactly what you tell me : "The links are placed for the benefit of readers, not your convenience". That's why "an interlanguage link is mainly suitable for linking to the most closely corresponding page in another language". For this reason the adding of spanish and italian interwiki seem wrong. And even if it's not wrong, the correction is not simple as you think. It implies to make large update. This update can be done, but someone must manage it.

Since the beginning you think I don't know what I do, and you are arrogant with me. When I explain you don't try to understand.

--Hercule (talk) 19:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"How you 'know' all that, with absolute certainty, is a mystery" I know interwikis management because I practice it since time. So I know that the same article should not be used as interwiki in different articles. That's what I'm trying to explain you.

"Perhaps your omniscience can provide the answer to this question" This is not omniscience, this is practice and interrest on a subject that doesn't seem to interrest you (and there's not problem about that) and then don't know (and then you should trust people knowing it).

"What is an 'elephant'?" This question has no interrest on the subject of what we are talking about.

The question is : Which article should host es:Elephantidae as interwiki. Elephantidae or Elephant.

You decided it's Elephantidae without understanding the content of es:Elephantidae ! I'm sorry but I can't consider it's an important opinion.

Now Curtis Clark, who can read spanish says the article es:Elephantidae is also containing content of Elephantidae, and so restored interwikis. But he didn't changed links on Elephant. That's the new situation.

I agree es:Elephantidae contains a mix of the contents of Elephantidae and Elephant. I always agreed about that !

I have explained to Curtis Clark the problem with his revert. And asked him to revert himself. But I think it's possible his opinion about es:Elephantidae is different of mine. That's why I indicated him that if the spanish article (and italian) should be linked to Elephantidae, then what he did is not suffisant. We should decide what is the unique article that should be link to the spanish (and also to the italian, it can be different) and resolve the interwikis conflict.

That's the current situation. I'm waiting his answer.

I can understand my english is not very good and then some points were not clear since the begining. I also perfectly understand you don't understand easyly the issue because you don't know interwikis management. That's why I explain it to you.

--Hercule (talk) 20:53, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see you understand the issue ;). But I think you should wait the opinion of Curtis Clark, who understand spanish, don't you ?

There is also the case of the italian article that must be solve before to update other languages pages.

I also inform you that the problem appear on many languages : see eo:Elefanto, or pt:Elefante for exemple. A real correction seem quite impossible to me. But if you think you're able to do it, I can help with my bot :p

--Hercule (talk) 21:13, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[6] + [7] = ?

I go to sleep, I'll read your links tomorrow. But your edit on spanish Wikipedia is still incorrect. Indeed all the interwikis of the page must be corrected (ie set the english page one). But you should not try to correct it before we have the opinion of Curtis Clark and decided what to do with italian interwiki. I fact I can do the correction with my bot, but it's easier if you don't change interwikis on other pages (if you're interrested I can explain more precisely tomorrow). This afternoon I was at work, that's why I had to spend one hour to make it manually.

Regards --Hercule (talk) 21:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure to have really understood what you want to demonstrate with the links you gave me. Sorry. --Hercule (talk) 10:26, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Although I find the solution still less than satisfactory, the things that convinced me are that the es and it editors are satisfied with elefante redirecting to the family, and that of the two en articles, the better one for iw is Elephant, given the assertion that having two articles iw to the same article cannot be bot-maintained. It seems like a limitation of the bot, but I'm an "eventualist" in this regard, and since I don't maintain iw links, I'd prefer to stay as much as possible out of the way of the editors who do, except in the case when links are clearly wrong.--Curtis Clark (talk) 02:49, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks for this response. I restore the interwiki on Elephant, the correction on es article.

I agree to continue discussion about the best link to do, but please let me make the updates if we decide to do it. I have the tools to make it correctly ;)

Regards --Hercule (talk) 10:26, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For information, I had a discussion on swedish wikipedia to make some updates. I let a message on Elephant talk page. If you see someone updating interwikis from Elephant to Elephantidae can you inform me ? So I'll run updates after verifying this person is aware of the impact.

Regards

--Hercule (talk) 19:29, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

sv:Användardiskussion:Nordelch#interwikis_of_Elefanter --Hercule (talk) 21:00, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You think Assemblages of plants and invertebrate animals of tumulus (organic mound) springs of the Swan Coastal Plain is a long title? Check this out. Hesperian 14:30, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Remarkable! cygnis insignis 15:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: edit summary, I'll get around to that one (the one you subpaged) eventually.... Hesperian 23:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just letting you know, I've posted my reasons for the revert on Biologyoracle's talk page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Biologyoracle. I hope I've explained my reasons properly! Cheers, Alphard08 (talk) 12:03, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wonderful that you added an image of Roderick to the article. Thank you! Gillyweed (talk) 21:35, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A while back, I added to Kingia the observation that Westall's painting View of the south side of King George's Sound contains the earliest known image of the plant. Being the complete and utter idiot that I am, I failed to provide a citation for this claim, so I don't know where to go back to in order to read around the topic.

I'm now reading Findlay's Arcadian Quest, in which she puts the argument that Westall's pictures are mostly not objective scientific recordings of landscape, but rather artworks constructed from an agenda. This applies to his field sketches, but even more to the oil paintings that he later worked up from them. When I first started reading it, I was afeared that I was about to drown in postmodern tosh, but she's convinced me with solid, pragmatic, indisputable evidence. As one example, she shows how

• 
  the oil painting View from the South Side of King George's Sound is not a faithful reproduction of a field sketch, but rather
• 
  the topography from the sketch King George's Sound, View from Peak Head, with the vegetation in the front fiddled
• 
  including the superimposing of the Kingia in the sketch Port Jackson, Grass Trees.

Findlay's arguments are somewhat weakened by the occasional glaring error, such as interpreting salt-prostrated trees as fallen branches. And in this case, she rightly gets all hot and bothered about a Port Jackson plant being placed in a King George's Sound landscape; but of course the real problem here is that a King George's Sound Kingia has been wrongly labelled as occurring at Port Jackson. And in Westall's defence there, the only caption I see on the sketch says "Grass Trees"; there's no mention of Port Jackson.

To come to the point: WTF is going on here? Hesperian 13:10, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alex George to the rescue. This from a source on Westall that only recently came to my attention: "Critics have commented on the addition of vegetation and figures and stated that some were taken from drawings made elsewhere. In the case of the prominent 'grass tree' it is, in fact, the drawing titled 'Port Jackson: Grass Trees' that contains an intruder, the left-hand plant and detail of a 'head' being Kingia australis which is restricted to south-western Australia." Maybe not all the confusion is gone, but at least now I have a source for it. Hesperian 08:10, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Glad you like them ... I like them a lot. Do make an edit to Isaac Crewdson as we have a joint DYK hook here. Oh and #Victuallers is just a null destination which I use when I want to display the name but not allow people to click and get an error message.

I see some applications for the other place. I removed myself from the nom, thank you though :) The credit should go to you. Keep in touch, cygnis insignis 11:39, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It occurs to me that, should you be inclined to tart up the article Banksia verticillata with pretty pictures of your own taking, you would, by virtue of your geographic location, be decidedly at an advantage over most anyone else so inclined. Hesperian 14:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, you added a merge template to the Leafcutter ant article a while ago. However, that template suggested the proposal should be discussed on Talk:Atta, the talk page of a disambiguation page, and I couldn't find a related discussion anywhere. I've now reworked the article and made the problem addressed by your proposal more clear. I therefore removed the merge/split proposal and was hoping you could have a look at the article. -Fama Clamosa (talk) 09:12, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

{{William Blake}}
Hello, I wanted to ask you about your concerns with the Blake template. As for it being an "un-cited amalgamation of links" (or something to that effect), there really isn't anything I can do. No Wikipedia guideline compels templates to be cited- and what an awkward mess they'd be if they were! However, if your complaint has more to do with how the template disrupts the functionality of the "What links here" tool, I'm sure that that issue can be resolved, and am willing to investigate whether a solution can be found or indeed already exists. Please let me know. Thanks, Lithoderm 23:58, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What guideline says the content of templates is exempt from guidelines and core policies? Explain how the collection of links and labels provide some benefit that could not be done with article content or a category? Assuming a user can find the content fork, through a double-transclusion, how are they to improve it without citations? The set of links has, presumably, some threshold of relevance, and it seems from the templates documentation that applies to inclusion elsewhere. I'm reading this assemblage as things under the 'top-level' topic "William Blake", that is only one possible interpretation and not a fact. Any number of content templates could be generated by this means, an article on one of his poems could include 18th century art, and 19th C, the editors of other version (no small matter with Blake) and by extension the extant template on preRaphaelites. Or should that be merged?! That this author template is not included in other author articles indicates some of the major problems with this approach. Consider the consequences of including, for example, the Rossettis and explain how this addresses these issues.

Resolving the second issue would be great, please let me know how that can be done. cygnis insignis 11:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose my answer in general would be that this template deals largely with articles that are most directly related to William Blake- that is, his works. Where other individuals are mentioned, they are usually only notable because of their relation to Blake- where would Calvert, Linnell, Tatham, Richmond, and Gilchrist if they hadn't been involved with Blake? The dustbin of history, that's where. Their names seldom arise outside of scholarship on Blake. Where this is not the case (Bloom, Fry), I believe I have added appropriate caveats in the template documentation. As for templates not providing any information that is not presented by categories or articles- the template gives a visual structure to information that cannot be provided in the article space, and the template provides a simultaneous viewing of the component articles that cannot be provided by categories. It is like a chart- a helpful way of logically organizing information.

Your issues seem to relate to navigational templates in general, rather than the Blake template in particular. These templates are very common in articles on major artists, as I'm sure you are aware:[8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21](I have at least 8 more open in tabs but you get the idea). As such your concerns should be presented to a larger forum; I will post links to this discussion on the visual arts wikiproject and the village pump. Regarding the second issue, I don't know immediately how to resolve it, but as I said I am willing to investigate it. Lithoderm 05:37, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"provide some benefit that could not be done with article content or a category": Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates states "The grouping of articles by one method neither requires nor forbids the use of the other methods for the same informational grouping.".

The other issues seem to be about inclusion criteria for this specific template, and should be discussed by editors interested in the topic. Paradoctor (talk) 07:16, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is an excellent navigation template and extremely useful to the reader who wishes to investigate other articles which are relevant to Blake - without having to trawl through text to find links or bring up various category pages, which is another navigation means but one which some people don't find convenient and which is not immediately accessible in the same way as the nav template, where everything is immediately and clearly laid out.

As for a benefit not provided by a category, one might as well say what benefit is provided by a category that is not provided by a nav template. We provide various means in tandem: links in the article, categories, nav templates and lists for the convenience of the reader.

Nav templates are not cited. The cites should be in the articles linked to. The fact of The Tyger being in Songs of Innocence and of Experience is established in the article on The Tyger. Then a link to The Tyger is placed in the nav section headed Songs of Innocence and Experience. This is perfectly straightforward.

The nav template should provide links to the articles which the reader might wish to go to in order to explore the subject of the main article, namely William Blake, and a range of articles relevant to it. Here we use common sense if necessary via consensus on particular inclusions. This is why we are called editors and not drones. The Ancients are so strongly associated with Blake that I don't see any problem with this link or the links to the associated artists. The article on e.g. John Linnell highlights his connection with Blake. Under "Scholars and critics", the article Donald Ault shows clearly his important connection to Blake. There does not seem a similarly strong case with Peter Ackroyd, so perhaps this could be removed.

I don't know why the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood has been alluded to. The article on them doesn't mention Blake and nor does the eponymous template. Let's not make hypothetical problems. If someone wishes to include the Rossettis, it's up to them to make this viable (under a heading of "Legacy" perhaps?). Then that can be examined.

"That this author template is not included in other author articles indicates some of the major problems with this approach." Not a problem. The template is used to give links relevant to the template subject, which may not be viable in reverse, e.g. Template:WWII history by nation, which has a link to History_of_Belgium, where only part of the article deals with WWII. History of Belgium does not include the navbox Template:WWII history by nation.

"What links here" will bring up all the articles where the template is included. That is the same with all such nav templates and is system-wide. Any such problems need to be addressed elsewhere, not with this specific template.

In summary: I do not see any problem at all here. It is perfectly in line with accepted practice.

Ty 13:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And what the reader is interested in any other aspect of the article, any sort of collation from separate articles could be championed in this manner. Lists contain citations, are easily improved, and give the option to a reader; clearly more an advantage; nav-boxes silently define a topic or subject and are transcluded by an arbitrary decision. How will that be settled, debate? How are the redlinks to articles, one acting as labels, "extremely useful". cygnis insignis 15:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• anyone wanting to the consider the application and implications of Nav-boxification, uncitable and arbitrary tranclusion of oversimplified article content merged with an inflexible and gaudy display that is redundant to the category system, might consider reading the guideline and talk of Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates. This is not a "series of articles" that gain from the advantages, it suffers from the many disadvantages. I use one 'nav-box', the relationship to other articles can be verified by citations, a topic or subject as loose as this will always be POV. cygnis insignis 15:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Inclusion of article links or subdivisions in a template may inadvertently push a POV. It may also incorrectly suggest that one aspect of a topic or a linked example is of more, less, or equal importance to others; be used to advertise obscure topics in prominent places; or assert project proprietorship." Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates

Hello, please join the discussion at Talk:The Raven. As noted prior to your latest reversion, the featured picture is properly sourced. Procedurally, I will be reporting this to the edit warring noticeboard since you have reverted four times in under 24 hours and (thus far) declined two editors' invitations to discuss the matter at the article talk page. Would gladly withdraw the report if this can be ironed out by normal means. Please see WP:BRD. Durova⁴¹² 22:12, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Noted. cygnis insignis 22:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[22]. Cordially, yandman 13:11, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Go chase yourselves, ya blockheads. cygnis insignis 13:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if you were aware, when you created this article, that your pal Ferdinand had painted this species. Plate 110 of Stephan Endlicher's Iconographia Generum Plantarum. Such a pity I can't find a scan online. :-( Hesperian 13:27, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I remember hunting for that work, maybe for that image, but I don't know how I would have known that. I do 'know', without having seen it, that it is the 'greatest botanical illustration' of Adenathos in history (unless he did another one). Where is this mentioned, in a separate volume? cygnis insignis 14:57, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One of the best places to discover early plates is in Flora Australiensis; in this case, Volume 5, page 355.[23] Hesperian 14:07, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You would know what I'm thinking, one day ... cygnis insignis 14:14, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have left a totally incomprehensible message at this talk page, what has happened... SatuSuro 11:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh the piece of string, I get it, just a simple r can really spoil a lede para :) SatuSuro 12:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Cygnis insignis. You have new messages at Makeemlighter's talk page.
Message added 03:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.[reply]

Makeemlighter (talk) 03:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, is currently undergoing a two-month trial scheduled to end 15 August 2010.

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under pending changes. Pending changes is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial. The list of articles with pending changes awaiting review is located at Special:OldReviewedPages.

When reviewing, edits should be accepted if they are not obvious vandalism or BLP violations, and not clearly problematic in light of the reason given for protection (see Wikipedia:Reviewing process). More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found here.

If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. Courcelles (talk) 03:27, 17 June 2010 (UTC) [reply]

A tag has been placed on Ann Candler requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion,

--Talktome^(Intelati) 15:35, 11 October 2010 (UTC) [reply]

You have been blocked temporarily from editing for edit warring, as you did at Richard Garnett (philologist). During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding below this notice the text {{unblock|Your reason here}}, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. Toddst1 (talk) 16:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]