Jimbo, after I posted something here about ArbCom-blocked Midnight68, you said "I would definitely raise this with Trust and Safety directly if I were you. I'm with you". So I did. It has now been over two weeks since someone from Trust & Safety acknowledged receipt of my email. I've tried to go about this the right way, but it has not resulted in any action. I know that the board doesn't want to interfere with how Trust & Safety does its work, but when users like this continue to edit a decade after they were identified as problematic, something is wrong. This user's current account, JasonGlennHuntley is active as of a few days ago, adding fake lingerie ads and fetishistic self-created anime drawings to articles on smaller projects. I don't think this will reflect well on the WMF, or Trust & Safety if it ends up in the press. B. disruptus (talk) 17:18, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, it seems that Jeff G. has asked for my account to be globally locked, because of my efforts to have Midnight68 banned. Huh. B. disruptus (talk) 03:52, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, for cross-wiki abuse, disruption, and wikihounding. Perhaps you would have better luck with a community ban.   — Jeff G. ツ 18:56, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's an interesting point of view, Jeff G.. Do you think that reverting JasonGlennHuntley's addition of an image of little girls flashing their panties was cross-wiki abuse? Or reverting this addition of a different image of little girls showing off their panties? Or reverting this addition of not one, but two animations of - guess what? - little girls showing off their panties? There is cross-wiki abuse here, but it isn't by me. And if by "wikihounding" you mean correctly identifying JasonGlennHuntley as an obvious sockpuppet of Midnight68, then I guess I am guilty of that. No one else seemed to have problem with it when I did it here on Jimbo's talk page or in User:B. disruptus/draft Rfc for Meta. Perhaps because it is so very very obviously the same person. You might not know that I have tried to start an Rfc on Meta to have these accounts globally blocked. I don't have enough edits, apparently. I have invited other users to start one, but no one has done so. Jeff G., would you like to start it? It's been over ten years since this user was identified as a problem and banned by ArbCom. Why are you helping them instead of trying to stop them? B. disruptus (talk) 03:22, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you waste so much time with deleting some petty cartoons? tgeorgescu (talk) 03:53, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Now you are beginning to understand why Wikipedia is getting increasingly disfunctional B. disruptus, and that also Trust & Safety is possibly the least effective and least trustworthy of all the departments in the bloated 500 WMF employees and contractors. I'm sure Jimbo has taken note, but you will have to do what everyone else does: disentangle the confusing structure of WMF staff and contact the right one. Perhaps you could also email a Steward, but I'm not sure that would work. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:21, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You might be right about Trust & Safety. They managed to globally lock Addeodatus and delete a file named "A penis of a 14 years old teenager with penile synechiae.jpg" which they uploaded almost a year ago, but they didn't delete the article they created on Ukranian Wikipedia about children's underwear or do anything about the questionable image that they used. Trust & Safety are seriously lacking in follow-through. B. disruptus (talk) 04:53, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Kudpung: I have seen crusaders come and go. They think that however whoever isn't for them, is against them. They are not prepared to compromise, bow down to evidence or even present evidence for their claims (e.g. B. disruptus has accused several editors of being socks, but they provided no evidence for it). tgeorgescu (talk) 04:39, 23 June 2022 (UTC) Later edit. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:30, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Tgeorgescu:, I'm not really interested and I won't be doing any research into it. Investigating genuine suspicious activity and obnoxious users is a dangerous business and not good for one's Wikihealth (I learned the hard way). I was just making an observation, and I come to this page very rarely. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that entire categories exist for these types of images concerns me. I don't think I need to say why. Scorpions13256 (talk) 09:44, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

B. disruptus has become particularly quiet after several requests to produce evidence for their claims.

I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm not saying they're right. I just state that they have reported some usernames without disclosing why they would be WP:SOCKS.

The fact that B. disruptus does not like those cartoons is not evidence of socking. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:33, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@B. disruptus:, I think you are lot more likely to get banned than Midnight68. Your list of contributions indicates that you are a new editor, and aren't disillusioned yet. For context, see pro-pedophilia movement on Google. Since Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, you should (regrettably) expect to see this view also represented in decisions on this website. If you can accept this personal risk, and think it is worth getting banned over, you have my support in trying to solve this problem, although I don't intend on getting banned with you. It could work out. It is still possible the people who run things will listen to you.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 20:31, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Epiphyllumlover Don't worry about me. I'll be fine. ;) B. disruptus (talk) 21:25, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Tgeorgescu I ignored your requests for evidence because you don't have a stake in this matter. I have provided evidence to Trust & Safety. They know what the problem is. Jimbo knows what the problem is. Many other people know what the problem is. They don't need me to connect the dots. Try reading the previous discussions for a start. B. disruptus (talk) 21:24, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@B. disruptus: It is usually considered not done to blame some editor without providing evidence. Also, I'm not pro-pedophilia and I don't think cartoons amount to pedophilia. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:40, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Tgeorgescu I think it would be best if we don't discuss your views on pedophilia. No one has accused you of anything. B. disruptus (talk) 21:56, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reply from Trust & Safety

Jimbo, I got a reply from Trust & Safety about my report. I hope it is ok to quote part of that reply (I assume it is a boilerplate text):

As you likely know, Trust & Safety Office Actions are a powerful but limited tool. We can only act in certain circumstances, when there is sufficient evidence to support a severe and final action against someone. We cannot act in cases where the community is capable of handling the matter, and we are not an appeal body for cases where the community has already handled a matter, but not to the satisfaction of an involved party. Given all of this, we are unable to take action in the case you reported.

In my initial report, I offered to supply more information if Trust & Safety had any questions. Since no questions were asked, I assume that sufficient evidence was provided. Trust & Safety appear to be laying this case at the feet of the Community. This is a case that spans ten years and multiple projects in several different languages. One of those projects has failed to act when they were given the evidence. This suggests that "the Community" (which is actually several disparate and uncoordinated communities) is incapable of handling the matter.

More to the point, Midnight68 was blocked by ArbCom, presumably with input from WMF legal. Didn't Trust & Safety inherit responsibility for all of those ArbCom blocks? And if not, why not? B. disruptus (talk) 21:50, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Friend, let me tell you as it is: fighting against erotic cartoons is a waste of time, since it does nothing to address real child abuse. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:53, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

it doesn't mean we should be turning a blind eye to ethical and legal issues surrounding users uploading CP. If you find it a waste of time, don't do it. Simple. PRAXIDICAE🌈 22:05, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I guess that more than 50% of the articles from English Wikipedia are illegal in some country. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:09, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be ridiculous. If you think that we should be hosting child porn because some countries label certain articles as propaganda, you're in denial and out of touch with reality. PRAXIDICAE🌈 22:12, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

These aren't real children. These are cartoons, not real sex. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:14, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Enlighten me, how is CP in the form of cartoons encyclopedic? PRAXIDICAE🌈 22:16, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't claim that these cartoons are encyclopedic. I'm only saying that it is phony moralism to consider these child pornography. Same as there is no real incest in porn films with "incest" in their title. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:19, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I'm not going to debate with someone who is okay with CP being uploaded to Wikipedia in anyway, regardless of it's fictional or not. PRAXIDICAE🌈 22:20, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We had this discussion in 2010, see Reporting of child pornography images on Wikimedia Commons.

But now appears a newbie who is unaware that we reached WP:CONSENSUS in 2010 and begins to stir trouble again. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:41, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Tgeorgescu I am very aware of previous discussions and actions relating to these areas. I came here to have a discussion with Jimbo about one particular problem user. Please let me do that without injecting your unwanted opinions. Thanks. B. disruptus (talk) 22:50, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@B. disruptus: As I told you, you may e-mail evidence to checkusers from Commons, if you don't want to discuss it publicly. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:57, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

After seeing [1] I understood the gist of the dispute (scroll to Andrei Kucharavy's answer). tgeorgescu (talk) 00:48, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Came across this via OP's post on a Commons noticeboard. Figured I'd respond here, too. We don't need to get into the legality of "lolicon" (or whatever you want to call this) to take action in this case. It's someone with a laser focus on spankings and young girls' underwear, who makes their own low quality drawings, fake comics, fake video games, etc., and has used sockpuppets to spam their own content all over Wikimedia projects. Because of the rigidity of "in use" arguments on Commons, and in part due to the built-up defensiveness to removing sexual images, when the files have been nominated for deletion, many have been kept. But this is definitely something the community can handle without T&S:

1. Go undo the sock farm's spam
2. remove Midnight68's images from being in use
3. nominate them for deletion as out of scope
4. block as a WP:DUCK any account that reuploads them in the future (Yann just blocked the most recent sock on Commons). As I just wrote on Commons, this is not some famous artist such that lots of people are going to stumble across their work and reupload it. If you follow the source links to Flickr, the images barely have double-digit view counts.

None of this needs to be based on the content being objectionable or arguments over legality; all we need to agree on is that the content is low quality Deviant Art-style fetish drawings, and that the only reason we have them is so the creator can spam them across Wikimedia projects. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 20:42, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

	The Original Barnstar
	you are so inspiring sir, we love you (Uganda wikimedians) Stnts256 (talk) 13:27, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I started a discussion here Talk:Marjorie_Taylor_Greene#Conspiracy_theorist_in_lede_2 as it was the first time I have seen the term "conspiracy theorist" used on an article relating to a current member of an elected government. I don't follow the article subject but I have seen the term used a lot, and seems to be increasing.

According to Conspiracy_theory#Etymology_and_usage that the the usage of the term is "always derogatory". However, WP:BLPSTYLE says "Do not label people with contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision, unless a person is commonly described that way in reliable sources." I thought I would post here about this as it might attract more non-political editors to comment to the above RFC. I wonder if we are using derogatory terms in an increasing manner as society uses them more in an increasing manner. Shall wikipedia follow that trend? I suppose we will, but thought it an interesting point to discuss. If some RS (normally we dont need more than ten sources to create a WP:CITEBUNDLE and the resulting appearance of vast quantities) use derogatory terms, will we follow that? Shall we also use terms racist, rapist, sexist, pervert, etc? Where do we stop? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:33, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is an excellent question well worth some thoughtful chewing. The first thing that I'll note - just as a starting point mind you - is that at least "rapist" is actually pretty well defined and objective in the case of criminal convictions. We might compare 'fraudster' in the case of Bernie Madoff as a potential model. That is, I think that in general we probably don't call people 'fraudster' without pretty serious reliable sourcing which is normally grounded in a conviction.

But 'conspiracy theorist' isn't generally a crime and therefore it may be much harder to pick apart 'this is a reliable source but with a partisan agenda' (quite common these days) from 'this is just an obvious statement of fact by a reliable source'.

I should add, for completeness, that in ordinary speaking I personally have no problems with calling MTG a "conspiracy theorist" without qualification. But I do agree with you that it is a valid question whether Wikipedia should. It's worth reminding ourselves that there's a wide range of ways that we can handle this, many of which stop far short of Wikipedia asserting that she's a conspiracy theorist. ("sometimes described by major newspapers and political opponents as a conspiracy theorist" is a quick first thought.)

And finally, I'm taking no position on this issue as it relates to MTG - I'm just agreeing with you that this is an important discussion for Wikipedia to have.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:54, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]