I know Wikipedia is not meant to take a political stance, but can we not do any more to support the poor people of Ukraine? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:04, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WMF probably has enough in its coffers to buy the Polish jets that Ukraine wants. As far as I know WMF isn't part of NATO, so they could then gift them to Ukraine. Easy peasey. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:14, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Jimmy, Cullen328 said above "... if there was ever any time for you to speak out forcefully about a world historical event that poses a grave threat to the fundamental values of this great project, then this is it. A week ago, the WMF issued a statement saying that it "will not back down" against Russian censorship threats. You have a unique position of moral authority in this matter. You must forcefully denounce Putin's repression of independent reliable sources of information about this war, and especially his arrest of a respected editor of the Russian Wikipedia." I wholly endorse that statement. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:59, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Martinevans123, I am responding because you quoted me at length. I think that Jimbo replied in detail at 08:43, 14 March 2022 (UTC), and I, for one, appreciate his response and he made some points that I had not previously considered. The #1 issue here has to be the safety and best possible outcome for User:Pessimist2006. Jimbo pointed out a factor that I had not properly considered, that if we make the case of the arrested Wikipedia editor a major cause célèbre, that may well make the outcome more harsh for the imprisoned editor. Jimbo, I am sure that you remember that I have disagreed with you on certain occasions and agreed at other times, and that we might disagree in the future. When I read what you wrote taking what I consider to this be highly reliable professional advice, going on a PR offensive is not likely to be productive and indeed may very well be counter-productive then I can only conclude that you are taking this matter quite seriously and are relying on professional advice that I am not competent to offer. So, I will remain relatively quiet for now, but if the time comes when it is appropriate for Wikipedia editors and administrators to speak out in public forums, you can count on me for assistance, Jimmy Wales. Cullen328 (talk) 03:59, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Cullen328, I do appreciate that and will remember it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:26, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Cullen328. Forgive me if you think I hijacked your comment for my own purposes. I think you might want to tweak your response above to show which bits are a quote from Jimbo? I read all of that thread above, but I'm not really talking about the arrest of a single Wikipedia editor. But rather the indiscriminate bombing of thousands of women and children, on the orders of a deranged despot. Perhaps people think that an online encyclopaedia need not worry about such nasty things. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:25, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The WMF raised its money from donors who were told it would be used to support Wikipedia and other projects, none of which include financing weapons. These donors are however perfectly free to donate money for weapons if that is what they choose to do. Any political action the WMF takes should relate directly to protecting its projects and editors. TFD (talk) 09:51, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, we definitely won't be funding any weapons.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:26, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Martinevans123: Well, I have an idea. Why don't we recruit all the wikipedia keyboard warriors to join the war in Ukraine, since Ukraine govt wants some foreign volunteers. We can do a small banner below that, in small font, to help Yemeni people maybe. - hako9 (talk) 20:57, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I see. I wonder if Jimbo's suggestion(s) will be as radical as your own. Perhaps we just all carry on as normal, adding our reliable sources, bickering about pronouns and blocking vandals. Just ignoring Putin's illegal and barbaric war on the Ukrainian people, while thousands of innocent civilians starve to death or get blown to pieces. It really doesn't matter, they weren't even contributing to Wikipedia anyway? C'est la vie? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:09, 20 March 2022 (UTC) [1][reply]

Banal virtue signalling. Keep wikipedia out of this. Do some helping on your own account. Show the same outrage for the non blonde haired and non blue eyed people too perhaps. - hako9 (talk) 21:18, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Another, less radical idea. Our boy Jimmy can mint and auction some nft's to help the Ukrainian people. - hako9 (talk) 21:25, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c) I see. I haven't done enough helping on my own account. I've got nothing against non-white people, thanks. Or shall we all just perpetuate Putin's "de-Nazification of Ukraine" narrative? If we all keep quiet, perhaps that nice Mr Putin will call his bombers and troops home. Zelensky has compared the Russian invasion of his country to Hitler's "final solution". I tend to agree with him. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:31, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hopefully I don't add too much fuel to the fire, but I do think there may be value in answering the point hako9 was trying to make. You have described it as an immense moral failing that Jimbo Wales and/or the Wikimedia Foundation is not denouncing Russia for their invasion of Ukraine. Have you said the same for any other conflicts in recent memory, where the victims might not have looked quite so much like you? Have you asked Jimbo to officially denounce the genocide of the Rohingyas by Myanmar's military? Have you asked Jimbo to officially denounce the war crimes, ethnic cleansing and damn-near genocide of the Tigrayans by the Ethiopian and Eritrean militaries? Maybe you feel you do have good reasons to care about the Ukrainians but not the Tigrayans or the Rohingya people, but his point does have enough substance that a proper response might be informative to this discussion. Endwise (talk) 16:45, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, I do denounce the actions that Russia is taking in Russia, and lots of other things. I think there is a very very valid question of when and where I should speak out and why. My own desire in life is to do useful and helpful things. In many cases, if the issue is some matter relating to copyright and open Internet, I feel that people do actually listen to me. In other areas, I don't think anyone is particularly listening. I am taking action personally in terms of things that I think I can usefully do, but I can't quite speak about them yet. (Not that they are super duper top secret or all that shocking or interesting really, but there's a time and a place for announcing things and talking about it here - where journalists read - isn't really the right venue.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:26, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The things that Russia, i.e. Putin, is doing in Russia are bad enough (just ask Alexei Navalny for the next nine years). But the things that Russia, i.e. Putin, is doing in Ukraine are just a tad worse, I think. When the leader of a major nuclear world power says he's put his nuclear weapons on "high alert" (because of some loose comments by Liz Truss), many people might feel it was time to speak out, whether journalists were bothered to pay any attention or not. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:19, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't recall describing it in those terms and I'm not attempting to build any kind of "fire". I would wholeheartedly agree that the genocide of the Rohingyas and damn-near genocide of the Tigrayans, alongside the Syrian civil war and the plight of those in the Yemeni Civil War have been horrendous. It is not the case that I "don't care about the Tigrayans or the Rohingyas". It just seems to me that Putin's war on the people of Ukraine is much worse and has the potential to lead to much greater international conflict. I realise that is a personal subjective judgement on my part. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:11, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is just a structural statement, but "failure to denounce" bad or wrong things that happened is mathematically the norm. If you took the last 100 bad things that happened, I'll bet that you / me have "failed to denouce" at least 99 of them. Especially the ones that were most obviously bad where such least needed saying. Wikipedia can do much more by doing it's job.....providing credible, accurate information. And getting involved where it can make a difference on things that directly jeopardize that mission. North8000 (talk) 17:08, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with both sides here. Yes, it's a horrible thing. We do need to do what we can. That does not mean that other topics are any less worthy of addressing. It's not a contest. We should do what we do, which is write Wikipedia articles. Good ones. That's why we're here after all. If the articles we write happen to be related to the war in Ukraine, that's great. Encourage that. But if they're not related, but still good articles, that's good too; the Ukraine war doesn't make the rest of what we do here at Wikipedia somehow less worthy. --GRuban (talk) 19:42, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wholly agree. I have never suggested there is any "contest" here. I don't even see "two sides" to this debate. It was a simple question. Perhaps too simple. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:39, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cool. I'm with you in spirit 200% North8000 (talk) 22:04, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• A statement by WMF is going to do absolutely nothing for anybody. A quiet commitment to keeping WP free of Putinist propaganda will go a long ways. Carrite (talk) 19:58, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Anyone fancy a four-week solid shift at Chernobyl? Perhaps those Russians can blow a few holes in the safe container; that didn't cost much to install, did it? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:18, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Perhaps you're just happy to pay the 4 million rubles fine? WMF has plenty of cash. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:44, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

	The Original Barnstar
	Airtransat236 (talk) 01:00, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Enjoy. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:04, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Example diff: [2]

Peer-reviewed publications from the highest scholarly authorities, and articles/features from the most reliable news orgs, are deleted every time an edit - like this one of mine - is reverted.

A RfC is not needed when literally all the most reliable news orgs publishing in the English language (AFP,^[1] BBC,^[2] DW,^[3] CNN,^[4] WashPo,^[5], Financial Times,^[6] et al) plus the leading academic experts on the issue of irregular militias in the conflict (namely Andreas Umland (Stockholm Centre for Eastern European Studies, Swedish Institute of International Affairs, Stockholm; National University of Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, Ukraine) and Kostiantyn Fedorenko (ZOiS Berline, Humboldt University of Berlin) explicitly refute the propaganda emanating out of Moscow and repeated only on fringe online outlets, that the Azov Regiment of today, a 1,000-odd strong unit of the National Guard of Ukraine is a "neo-Nazi militia".

Through filibustering, wikilawyering, and outright deceptive editing, this disinformation has been displayed on Wikipedia for the duration of the war - giving credence and support to those who argue online Ukraine is indeed in need of "de-Nazification", therefore justifying the Russian invasion. - EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 09:34, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]