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=== RfC: Should the "first_run" parameter be removed? === |
=== RfC: Should the "first_run" parameter be removed? === |
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Please refer to the discussion above prior to stating an opinion. [[User:Dogmaticeclectic|Dogmaticeclectic]] ([[User talk:Dogmaticeclectic|talk]]) 15:29, 24 September 2014 (UTC) |
Please refer to the discussion above prior to stating an opinion. [[User:Dogmaticeclectic|Dogmaticeclectic]] ([[User talk:Dogmaticeclectic|talk]]) 15:29, 24 September 2014 (UTC) |
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Contradictory parameters
Infobox television | |
---|---|
Original release | |
Network | Teletoon |
Release | March 1, 2014 present | –
Infobox television | |
---|---|
Original release | |
Network | Cartoon Network |
Release | April 9, 2014 present | –
There are some contradictory instructions for some of the important parameters in this infobox. These are (with emphasis added for clarity):
Parameter | Explanation |
---|---|
channel or network | The original channel(s) or network(s) on which the show has appeared. Do not add foreign broadcasters here. |
first_run | The country or region where the show was first broadcast. |
first_aired | Date the show first aired on its original channel or network. |
last_aired | The first airdate of the show's last episode on its original channel or network. |
This causes a problem at TV series such as The Tom and Jerry Show (2014 TV series). The series is American but first aired in Canada so Teletoon is a foreign broadcaster and therefore should not be in the |channel=
field. Instead this should be Cartoon Network. Similarly, because |first_aired=
and |last_aired=
specify the "original channel", the US dates should be used in those fields. Including "Canada" in |first_run=
per the instructions is misleading as the average reader would expect to see Canadian information, given Canada's location in the middle of the section and since that is where it first aired. The instructions either need to be rewritten, or the parameter relocated so that it's clear that the data is local and the foreign location is just a note. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:21, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- How I'm reading this, all of this information should relate to the channel that corresponds to its country of origin. But, if this information does not correspond to where it was first broadcast (in Tom and Jerry's case), then we should use the parameters as such. What if we change as so: keep "channel" or "network", "first_aired" and "last_aired" as is, and change instructions for "first_run" to include country, channel and it's air dates, or default to the country of origin if not used. I'm expecting the output to be something like: - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:38, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
If first run is different than Country of Origin | |
---|---|
Original channel | Cartoon Network |
Original run | April 9, 2014 | – present
First shown in | Canada on Teletoon March 1, 2014 – present |
If first run is not different than Country of Origin | |
---|---|
Original channel | NBC |
Original run | January 1, 2014 | – present
- That's not exactly what I was thinking of but it solves the problem and probably in a better way than what I was thinking. I'd be tempted to add fields for the foreign country dates so editors don't have to manually format the field. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you. When you presented this, it seemed logical to me. And yes, I just did a rough mock up, so I do believe a few new parameters may be needed. I'm seeing possibly three additional? If leaving
|first_run=
, then add one for the country's channel, and then one each for the start and end dates. And do note that the order they appear in the infobox will have to be adjusted to be clear as well (as I did in my mock up). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:02, 1 May 2014 (UTC)- I'm not sure what to call the new parameters. Adding
_foreign
to existing names seems rather simple and makes the intent of the parameters obvious, so we'd end up withfirst_aired_foreign
,last_aired_foreign
,channel_foreign
andnetwork_foreign
. If we use your suggestion,network_foreign
would simply be an alias forchannel_foreign
and used only for consistency with current parameters. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:26, 1 May 2014 (UTC)- How about all the parameters as follows:
|channel=
or|network=
,|first_aired=
,|last_aired=
,|first_run=
,|first_run_channel=
(or network. either or, or both),|first_run_first_aired=
and|first_run_last_aired=
. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 06:05, 1 May 2014 (UTC)- Yeah, that'd work too. --AussieLegend (✉) 18:27, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
- No one else has commented, but I don't see why there would be any objections. Can you make these changes? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:31, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, that'd work too. --AussieLegend (✉) 18:27, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
- How about all the parameters as follows:
- I'm not sure what to call the new parameters. Adding
- Thank you. When you presented this, it seemed logical to me. And yes, I just did a rough mock up, so I do believe a few new parameters may be needed. I'm seeing possibly three additional? If leaving
- That's not exactly what I was thinking of but it solves the problem and probably in a better way than what I was thinking. I'd be tempted to add fields for the foreign country dates so editors don't have to manually format the field. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
@AussieLegend: Do you feel we can implement this? Are you able to do so? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:50, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Since there has been no opposition, I'll have a look. --AussieLegend (✉) 02:07, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- Just pinging @Bignole: as an active WP:TV editor whose input is worth seeking. --AussieLegend (✉) 02:49, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- This sounds logical to me. I don't find this issue all that much to have a real opinion about it. What you've written up Favre seems appropriate. I'm ok with it. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 03:54, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- Gotta hand it to Favre for some clear mockups there. I hope my silence was considered implicit acceptance.
The only note I have is that we please, please, please provide clear instructions in the docs. I will chase each of you 'round the moons of Nibia to get some clarity to the Infobox parameters! And I'm sorry I didn't participate in this discussion sooner. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:47, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- "I will chase each of you 'round the moons of Nibia" Yeah, look where that got Khan. ;) --AussieLegend (✉) 06:41, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- I will not fail like Khan! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 13:34, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- "I will chase each of you 'round the moons of Nibia" Yeah, look where that got Khan. ;) --AussieLegend (✉) 06:41, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you both! - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:09, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- I also arrived late. These discussions need listed in more places. I'm a WPTV troller and this should've been pinged there somehow. If my plate was less full, I would create a global Television issues area somewhere. — Wyliepedia 10:21, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
- @CAWylie: Aussie made a post about this on the project talk page back at the end of April: here - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:25, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
- Ahso! Apologies for my dropped ball (or full plate). — Wyliepedia 15:30, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
- No problem. We have not acted on anything, so if you'd still like to weigh in, please do. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:35, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
- Ahso! Apologies for my dropped ball (or full plate). — Wyliepedia 15:30, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
- @CAWylie: Aussie made a post about this on the project talk page back at the end of April: here - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:25, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
- I also arrived late. These discussions need listed in more places. I'm a WPTV troller and this should've been pinged there somehow. If my plate was less full, I would create a global Television issues area somewhere. — Wyliepedia 10:21, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
- Gotta hand it to Favre for some clear mockups there. I hope my silence was considered implicit acceptance.
How about a {{Film date}}-type addition, used with a film's |release
parameter? I.e.: {{Film date|2014|6|24|Canada}}
returns:
- June 24, 2014 (Canada)
That way, it shows where it first aired while retaining the original (normal) airing country's format (first run, last aired, channel)? Or Favre1fan93's previous suggestion. I'm sleepy, thus flexible. (EDIT: Or add a date to the second blue box's Canada up top? So it would say "First shown in: Canada (March 1, 2014)" as suggested.) — Wyliepedia 16:55, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
User:AussieLegend, User:Favre1fan93, User:Bignole, User:Cyphoidbomb, and User:CAWylie: can we finally deal with this at some point? Personally, I would simply drop the first_run parameter altogether, since such a fact can simply be noted outside the infobox instead, and the alternative addition of several parameters serves merely to clutter up the template from my point of view. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 03:04, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- For my response, may I just point you to the last column of Template:Infobox_television#TemplateData, which clearly lists most of the template's parameters as optional. Translation: remove what is bothersome and/or unnecessary, thereby removing your "clutter", which doesn't show if empty. — Wyliepedia 09:15, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- User:CAWylie, here's some better reasoning: why are we elevating the status of a show in another country to the level of the infobox in the first place? Why is the fact that the show first aired somewhere else so important that it is afforded any spot(s) at all there? Note that this is an airing which could easily even be in a different language - are we going to have Wikipedians scouring sources with translators just to fill in some infobox field(s)? Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 16:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Because today's writers generally cannot generate one original thought and must use another country's ideas? Or a network cannot afford to produce their own series so they must mine others? Or simply the production schedule is stacked so other countries get it first? Finally, please stop pinging names. Some editors can comprehend properly worded responses. — Wyliepedia 21:20, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- User:CAWylie, here's some better reasoning: why are we elevating the status of a show in another country to the level of the infobox in the first place? Why is the fact that the show first aired somewhere else so important that it is afforded any spot(s) at all there? Note that this is an airing which could easily even be in a different language - are we going to have Wikipedians scouring sources with translators just to fill in some infobox field(s)? Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 16:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
RfC: Should the "first_run" parameter be removed?
Please refer to the discussion above prior to stating an opinion. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 15:29, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Unknown end date
How can we indicate that the programme is not currently airing but that we don't know its last date? See Buying Naked. No evidence on the channel's website, so not currently running. But leaving "last aired" blank, or entering "unknown" both come up with "Currently airing". What's the equivalent of "Date of death missing"? Or perhaps this article just needs to be nuked as its only source is the Daily Mail. PamD 07:51, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- OK, Googling shows that the show was still/again airing in June 2014 so not relevant now - but as a general question, there must be some cases where someone is writing about a historic show that hasn't been aired for decades but they don't have the exact date - there should surely be some option to get an output other than an exact end date or "currently airing". PamD 08:01, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- If I'd read the article talk page I'd have spotted that the reason I couldn't find it on the tlc website is that the URL redirects to www.uk.tlc.com when viewed from the UK. But the "date of cessation missing" issue remains. PamD 09:52, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Buying Naked's first season just ended by American TV standards. It may take months for any renewal news and is therefore considered "present". I don't know what happened to the
|status=
parameter, but that was used to show if it was currently airing or not (to editors, not the public). Perhaps that can be returned or possibly even a category to show such statuses (again, even if hidden)? — Wyliepedia 10:04, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Buying Naked's first season just ended by American TV standards. It may take months for any renewal news and is therefore considered "present". I don't know what happened to the
- If I'd read the article talk page I'd have spotted that the reason I couldn't find it on the tlc website is that the URL redirects to www.uk.tlc.com when viewed from the UK. But the "date of cessation missing" issue remains. PamD 09:52, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Proposal to clearly define the "genre" and "format" parameters
The existence of two parameters that can easily be confused with each other has led to repeated discussion here. I propose that:
- the genre parameter should only contain entries from the "Literary genres" section of List of genres;
- the format parameter should only contain entries from the "Film and television genres" section of the same list, with the exception of the entries in the "Live-action scripted" subsection since they largely duplicate the literary genres.
This seems largely consistent with existing usage (in some cases the usage seems to be reversed, but it seems that literary genres should take precedence in this regard). Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 17:24, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Both of these parameters were discussed late last year (see this discussion) and a link to List of genres#Film and television genres was added to the instructions for genre. Format was linked to Television program#Formats. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:48, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- @User:AussieLegend: First, the discussion that you linked to shows a clear lack of consensus. Second, there has been subsequent discussion of this issue at this very page since then, which indicates that the discussion you linked to should be afforded even less weight in determining consensus regarding this issue. Third, the current lists that are linked to are not mutually exclusive, causing confusion; the lists in my proposal would be. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 17:53, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I propose the removal of Genre. It is largely interpretive and problematic. Kids think that a cartoon in which someone dies de facto makes it a "black comedy", or that comedies that employ dramatic elements are "dramadies". The Template:Infobox film doesn't contain a genre parameter. Assuming that we're not all on board to remove the genre parameter, I would propose we do all of the following: A) Limit the genre to a shorter list of options than the example list. Microgenre should be discouraged the way that the Music wikiprojects limit ridiculous microgenres (post-punk rockabilly/grunge fusion). B) Limit Format to a set list of options such as "magazine news show", "miniseries", "animation", "reality TV", "taped", "filmed" or whatever "Format" is intended to mean. I have never quite understood the intention of this parameter, which is why I originally proposed its removal. C) Require in docs that genre must be sourced in infobox, or in the article prose. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:50, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- User:Cyphoidbomb, as sources do indeed exist for genres, option C is the obvious choice. That doesn't resolve the core issue of the confusion between the two parameters, though. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 18:55, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- @User:Cyphoidbomb: Regarding the recent clarification, you haven't proposed what the "set list of options" in option B should be! Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 19:21, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- @User:Cyphoidbomb: Could you please comment regarding my original proposal? It seems to be much more straightforward than yours... statements like "whatever 'Format' is intended to mean" don't exactly inspire confidence, after all. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 19:36, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not here to inspire your confidence, and it seems to me that we first have to define the intended purpose of the parameters, or their suitability for inclusion, before we decide on a list of examples. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:09, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- It has always been "format" that has been abused, because nobody really knew what it meant. A look through discussions here and at WT:TV shows that many parameters have caused grief over the years: first_aired, last_aired, first_run, starring, num_episodes, num_seasons, preceded_by and followed_by just to name a few. "Status" was removed because it was causing problems and now we have editors suggesting it be returned. If we get rid of all of the parameters that are abused, we may as well get rid of the infobox. It's far better to insist on sourced content. The Futon Critic has generally been found to be a good source for genre. Format though has problems. There was an RfC last year proposing removal of format, but the outcome was generally inconclusive.[1] If we were to get rid of a parameter, format really is the one to get rid of and I don't see why we'd want to point genre in a television infobox to "Literary genres" instead of "Film and television genres". --AussieLegend (✉) 23:14, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- @User:AussieLegend: Regarding your last point, it's because "Film and television genres" should really be "Film and television formats" on that page, since that's what is actually in the section for the most part. In fact, I was about to boldly make that change before I decided to come here first. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 00:47, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I disagree that the section should be formats since the article is about genres, so only genres should be listed. At the moment the present version is "Film and television genres and formats" but the formats should be removed. --AussieLegend (✉) 01:04, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- @User:AussieLegend: How about splitting the page, then? In any case, the point here is that I want the documentation for the format parameter to refer to that particular list regardless of what it's called. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 01:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Formats shouldn't be linked to a genres page. That muddies the waters and only makes things worse. Linking it to Television program#Formats makes more sense until a formats page is created. --AussieLegend (✉) 01:24, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- @User:AussieLegend: Sigh... do you agree that linking the parameters to the lists in question - regardless of what they're called and where they're located - is a good idea or not? Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 01:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Firstly, there's no need to sigh. I do that every time you clutter up my notifications by unnecessarily tagging me every time you reply, but I don't sigh visibly so please do me the same courtesy. As for your question, I believe that the current linking is appropriate. --AussieLegend (✉) 01:32, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'll judge for myself whether to visibly sigh or not, thank you very much. Would you care to (finally) elaborate upon your opinion regarding the current linking, or are you waiting until this discussion becomes so long that it goes right off the screen? Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 01:38, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Firstly, there's no need to sigh. I do that every time you clutter up my notifications by unnecessarily tagging me every time you reply, but I don't sigh visibly so please do me the same courtesy. As for your question, I believe that the current linking is appropriate. --AussieLegend (✉) 01:32, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- @User:AussieLegend: Sigh... do you agree that linking the parameters to the lists in question - regardless of what they're called and where they're located - is a good idea or not? Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 01:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Formats shouldn't be linked to a genres page. That muddies the waters and only makes things worse. Linking it to Television program#Formats makes more sense until a formats page is created. --AussieLegend (✉) 01:24, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- @User:AussieLegend: How about splitting the page, then? In any case, the point here is that I want the documentation for the format parameter to refer to that particular list regardless of what it's called. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 01:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I disagree that the section should be formats since the article is about genres, so only genres should be listed. At the moment the present version is "Film and television genres and formats" but the formats should be removed. --AussieLegend (✉) 01:04, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- @User:AussieLegend: Regarding your last point, it's because "Film and television genres" should really be "Film and television formats" on that page, since that's what is actually in the section for the most part. In fact, I was about to boldly make that change before I decided to come here first. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 00:47, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- It has always been "format" that has been abused, because nobody really knew what it meant. A look through discussions here and at WT:TV shows that many parameters have caused grief over the years: first_aired, last_aired, first_run, starring, num_episodes, num_seasons, preceded_by and followed_by just to name a few. "Status" was removed because it was causing problems and now we have editors suggesting it be returned. If we get rid of all of the parameters that are abused, we may as well get rid of the infobox. It's far better to insist on sourced content. The Futon Critic has generally been found to be a good source for genre. Format though has problems. There was an RfC last year proposing removal of format, but the outcome was generally inconclusive.[1] If we were to get rid of a parameter, format really is the one to get rid of and I don't see why we'd want to point genre in a television infobox to "Literary genres" instead of "Film and television genres". --AussieLegend (✉) 23:14, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not here to inspire your confidence, and it seems to me that we first have to define the intended purpose of the parameters, or their suitability for inclusion, before we decide on a list of examples. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:09, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Dogmatic, I'm not sure if anybody told you this when you were topic banned from Microsoft articles, but nobody at Wikipedia is required to answer questions to your satisfaction. In fact, we're not required to answer you at all. We assume good faith of the n00bz, but we are also human, so when a presumably intelligent and articulate person such as yourself continues to ask baited and impatient questions, or demonstrates a frequent inability to contribute constructively without vilifying others, or is prone to passive-aggressive templating, or drawing members into needlessly tedious and condescending arguments, at some point it ain't worth talking to you. Wikipedia is not therapy so whatever your deal is, figure it out with a professional, figure it out on your own, or at least make believe you are capable of playing nicely in the sandbox with the other children in public. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:00, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, User:Cyphoidbomb, all contributors are required to participate in discussion in good faith. Indeed, not acknowledging this fact directly was explicitly stated to be one of the reasons for at least one of my sanctions - which are very much irrelevant to the topic of discussion here, by the way, and so I would appreciate it if you did not bring them up again in such discussions. User:AussieLegend has purposely avoided the actual topic of this discussion in order to promote that user's own agenda here; such a course of action is fundamentally incompatible with Wikipedia policy, and vicious, unjustified personal attacks against me of the type you just posted don't change these simple facts. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 13:24, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Editors are required to act in good faith but they aren't required to participate at all. When your posts are inflammatory, starting them with "Sigh" and making bad faith accusations that others are avoiding the point of the discussion, editors are not inclined to participate at all. However, just to clear things up for you, as I see it, the points of this discussion are:
1. You want to "clearly" define TV genres by pointing editors to a section in an article that deals with literary genres instead of TV genres. I've already said I disagree with this and that "I don't see why we'd want to point genre in a television infobox to 'Literary genres' instead of 'Film and television genres'".
2. You want to "clearly" define TV formats by pointing editors to a section in an article that deals with film and television genres instead of an article that deals with television formats. I've said I disagree with this as well and that "Formats shouldn't be linked to a genres page" because "That muddies the waters and only makes things worse".
I really don't see what need there is for me to elaborate on that. Your proposals don't make sense. It's like pointing cat to dog and fish to cat. You really need to explain why you think your proposals make any sense at all. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:28, 7 August 2014 (UTC)- Okay, so your opinion is simply that the names of the lists should correspond to the names of the parameters before we can even discuss changing the links to point to those lists. Fair enough, although I don't see why we should wait - nor why you couldn't have simply said that right away. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 16:15, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Editors are required to act in good faith but they aren't required to participate at all. When your posts are inflammatory, starting them with "Sigh" and making bad faith accusations that others are avoiding the point of the discussion, editors are not inclined to participate at all. However, just to clear things up for you, as I see it, the points of this discussion are:
- (edit conflict) The format parameter was the first of the two parameters to be created. In 2005, a user proposed that format be changed to genre, because format is ambiguous. The lack of clarity about what format means, has existed ever since, although a user once explained that format refers to the medium of the show: Live Action, Broadway Play, Animation, etc. But is that actually the case? Is Soap Opera a format or a genre? Is tape a format? Is Reality TV a format? There was a time when the format parameter was not in the template, but it mysteriously appeared again, and has been improperly explained for almost a decade. The format parameter is rarely used today and even some of our reliable sources (Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic) lump format and genre together under "genre" for example here, where the genre for SpongeBob is "Comedy, Animation, Kids". So I propose all of the following:
- Remove the format parameter from the infobox finally.
- Create a list of acceptable genres at WP:TVFAQ, which we can derive from the existing list. This list will exclude unnecessary microgenre like "gross out humor". Although, if we insist that genres be reliably sourced, we may not need the list at all, because the genres will come from a reliable source, and will presumably be limited in number, and will probably not include microgenre.
- Adjust the Template:Infobox television documentation to include a link to the sample list, to explain our new requirements for sourcing, and to establish a limit to how many genres can be added (lest we encourage clutter like we did here.)
- If this doesn't seem appealing, I think the smart thing is to start over and open a RfC with the various options. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The format parameter was the first of the two parameters to be created. In 2005, a user proposed that format be changed to genre, because format is ambiguous. The lack of clarity about what format means, has existed ever since, although a user once explained that format refers to the medium of the show: Live Action, Broadway Play, Animation, etc. But is that actually the case? Is Soap Opera a format or a genre? Is tape a format? Is Reality TV a format? There was a time when the format parameter was not in the template, but it mysteriously appeared again, and has been improperly explained for almost a decade. The format parameter is rarely used today and even some of our reliable sources (Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic) lump format and genre together under "genre" for example here, where the genre for SpongeBob is "Comedy, Animation, Kids". So I propose all of the following:
Template colour
Hi guys, Does anyone know what in the code defines the colour of the template? For example Breaking Bad has a green top, while Firefly has a gold top, but both use infobox television. Thanks for your help. The Free Editor Anyone Can Cite (talk) 01:03, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I actually don't know this. It must be something in the template doing that. Anyone else? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:43, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Hi, The Free Editor Anyone Can Cite The color for Breaking Bad is coming from "bgcolor = #177245" in the template. Not sure about Firefly, though. I thought maybe that was a default color because it is a Featured Article, but I checked other FAs and that doesn't seem to be the case. Sorry for the Yahoo! Answer. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:45, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It's the parameter
|bgcolour=
, which uses web colors in hex code format. — Wyliepedia 01:47, 8 August 2014 (UTC)- There's also a certain little-known subpage of this template, Template:Infobox television/colour - I discovered it myself via the template code after making some observations much like those the OP mentioned. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 02:05, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Before anyone tries to use their newfound toy, I encourage them to read Colour template's talkpage and the guidelines established there. Most regular TV editors save colours for episode tables and the branched seasonal articles for discernment. Only established well-known series with regular colours, i.e. BB's green, should get them on their main pages, which is probably one reason it is not listed as a parameter. — Wyliepedia 04:37, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- There was consensus to stick with the default colours in infoboxes and
|bgcolour=
is deprecated. One of the reasons that Template:Infobox television/colour exists is that some TV series had well established colours and there were a limited number of exceptions made so that these series could continue to use colours. The series listed in Template:Infobox television/colour should be the only series using colour in the infobox. Editors need to establish consensus to add colour, in which case the series will be added to Template:Infobox television/colour. Colour shouldn't be manually added to infoboxes using the parameters which are deliberately NOT documented for this reason. Category:Television articles that use colour in the infobox is used to track articles using colour in the infobox. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:15, 8 August 2014 (UTC)- You need to disable the field, as people know about bgcolor and are adding it anyway. The template code could be changed to only allow colour on named pages, else default to standard colours. The horse has bolted and is half-way down the street. - X201 (talk) 12:15, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- I do agree with you. I've just removed it from 88 articles in which it shouldn't have been used. I'm not sure about Buffy the Animated Series. Since Buffy the Vampire Slayer is one of the exemptions, I've left it in that article. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:28, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- I removed it from the Buffy article as well. given the relative emptiness of the category, I say we remove it. it's clearly not needed. Frietjes (talk) 15:20, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- now boldy removed from the template as well. Frietjes (talk) 15:23, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- I do agree with you. I've just removed it from 88 articles in which it shouldn't have been used. I'm not sure about Buffy the Animated Series. Since Buffy the Vampire Slayer is one of the exemptions, I've left it in that article. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:28, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- You need to disable the field, as people know about bgcolor and are adding it anyway. The template code could be changed to only allow colour on named pages, else default to standard colours. The horse has bolted and is half-way down the street. - X201 (talk) 12:15, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- There was consensus to stick with the default colours in infoboxes and
- Before anyone tries to use their newfound toy, I encourage them to read Colour template's talkpage and the guidelines established there. Most regular TV editors save colours for episode tables and the branched seasonal articles for discernment. Only established well-known series with regular colours, i.e. BB's green, should get them on their main pages, which is probably one reason it is not listed as a parameter. — Wyliepedia 04:37, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- There's also a certain little-known subpage of this template, Template:Infobox television/colour - I discovered it myself via the template code after making some observations much like those the OP mentioned. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 02:05, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It's the parameter
- Hi, The Free Editor Anyone Can Cite The color for Breaking Bad is coming from "bgcolor = #177245" in the template. Not sure about Firefly, though. I thought maybe that was a default color because it is a Featured Article, but I checked other FAs and that doesn't seem to be the case. Sorry for the Yahoo! Answer. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:45, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
User:Frietjes, you left the category code in the template - not to mention the category itself. Both should be deleted. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 15:48, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- I would say leave it there for a week to see if anyone tries to use the old parameters, then delete it. but, I would not object to deleting the tracking category immediately either. Frietjes (talk) 15:51, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- I wouldn't delete the tracking category just yet. You'll still get people adding the field for a while, then other users will copy the template as a basis for a new article and leave the defunct field in. Over on WP:VG we still get people adding feilds that were killed off four years ago. Hence the massive clean-up we're currently undertaking. - X201 (talk) 16:19, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- @User:X201: AFAIK, it isn't permitted to have Wikipedia categories which are (intended to be) empty. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 16:21, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Dogmaticeclectic: sounds like you should send {{empty category}} to tfd, and have all the categories transcluding it deleted. Frietjes (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- User:Frietjes, I think you misunderstood what I meant. When the parameter existed in the template, the tag you pointed out was applicable to it, since there were indeed pages that were validly included in the category. Now that the parameter is gone, however, there cannot be any pages that are correctly in the category - any pages there are now mistakenly there, and mistakes are not a valid reason to keep the category despite User:X201's opinion on this matter - and so the tag should be removed and the category deleted. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 16:40, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- The whole point of the category now is to identify articles that incorrectly include the parameters. This is one of the functions of maintenance/tracking categories. X201's rationale for category retention seems valid. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:52, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- No, that rationale is not valid. If the category can only be used incorrectly now it should be left as a red link so that its use can easily be identified as such. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 17:00, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. Categories that don't exist shouldn't be linked to at all. If it's redlinked, there's no way to maintain the category. At the moment it exists in Category:Tracking categories, so there's some oversight even away from this template. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:13, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- This category should not exist any longer! Why should there be a "way to maintain" a category that should not even exist? Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 17:29, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- In the past 20 minutes I've used this category that you think should not exist to identify two more articles that shouldn't use the parameters yet were. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:35, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- This category should not exist any longer! Why should there be a "way to maintain" a category that should not even exist? Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 17:29, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. Categories that don't exist shouldn't be linked to at all. If it's redlinked, there's no way to maintain the category. At the moment it exists in Category:Tracking categories, so there's some oversight even away from this template. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:13, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- No, that rationale is not valid. If the category can only be used incorrectly now it should be left as a red link so that its use can easily be identified as such. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 17:00, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- The whole point of the category now is to identify articles that incorrectly include the parameters. This is one of the functions of maintenance/tracking categories. X201's rationale for category retention seems valid. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:52, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- User:Frietjes, I think you misunderstood what I meant. When the parameter existed in the template, the tag you pointed out was applicable to it, since there were indeed pages that were validly included in the category. Now that the parameter is gone, however, there cannot be any pages that are correctly in the category - any pages there are now mistakenly there, and mistakes are not a valid reason to keep the category despite User:X201's opinion on this matter - and so the tag should be removed and the category deleted. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 16:40, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Dogmaticeclectic: sounds like you should send {{empty category}} to tfd, and have all the categories transcluding it deleted. Frietjes (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- @User:X201: AFAIK, it isn't permitted to have Wikipedia categories which are (intended to be) empty. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 16:21, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- I wouldn't delete the tracking category just yet. You'll still get people adding the field for a while, then other users will copy the template as a basis for a new article and leave the defunct field in. Over on WP:VG we still get people adding feilds that were killed off four years ago. Hence the massive clean-up we're currently undertaking. - X201 (talk) 16:19, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Empty tracking categories are allowed, its empty article categories that aren't. The point of a tracking and maintenance category is to be there at all times so that it's subject can be tracked. - X201 (talk) 17:39, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- Should we go around creating categories for every infobox parameter someone comes up with in an article? How about having each and every infobox automatically place articles that have any extraneous parameter(s) in their infoboxes into a certain category? (Actually, come to think of it, that latter suggestion doesn't sound half-bad, unlike the current situation...) Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 17:40, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- "...place articles that have any extraneous parameter(s) in their infoboxes into a certain category?" Actually, that's the next phase of the clean-up of the video game infobox, after all of the defunct old fields are removed we're going to remove field names that have been invented by users. - X201 (talk) 18:05, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- We create categories as they are necessary, not just in case. Clearly, this one is still necessary. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:51, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Motto
Hi would like to know if you can add a parameter that says "slogan", There are many dramas and series that have slogans, such as "Do you believe in them... I do not believe in men?". I do not know if you understand what I'm saying, but I think this parameter would be good, or already exists?.--Damián (talk) 05:07, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think the term you are going for is "tagline"? The problem using these for a main series infobox is that these may change from season to season, if they evolve. I've only used them in seasonal infoboxes that have posters with them listed. I'm unsure of the usage for telenovelas. — Wyliepedia 11:05, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- A telenovela motto never changes, because they are soap operas and have seasons, so carry a motto soap operas, for example see the title of this article infobox. No where to put the theme of the soap opera, and the main title is not good.--Damián (talk) 13:55, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- We don't use taglines. That would be equivalent to trivia. We don't put "Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water" for the infobox of Jaws 2. If it's a subtitle, that's one thing, but not taglines. They are marketing gimmicks used to sell a product, and we're not here to sell a product. If there is discussion about a show's tagline(s), then you would include that in the body of the article with the reliable sources. We don't need to clutter the infobox with what is ultimately meaningless trivia about a show. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 15:06, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- There is no trivia on wikipedia in Spanish and Portuguese used the slogans, I'm trying to say is as a subtitle or so, they are just slogans that have several soap operas, which are not trivia or advertising methods. It's more or less like a subtitle, which have some telenovelas, are short phrases and I think would put them in the best templates.--Damián (talk) 15:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- We don't use taglines. That would be equivalent to trivia. We don't put "Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water" for the infobox of Jaws 2. If it's a subtitle, that's one thing, but not taglines. They are marketing gimmicks used to sell a product, and we're not here to sell a product. If there is discussion about a show's tagline(s), then you would include that in the body of the article with the reliable sources. We don't need to clutter the infobox with what is ultimately meaningless trivia about a show. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 15:06, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- There's a subtitle, and there's a slogan/tagline. Subtitles are exactly that, part of the title, and thus it would be in the name of the show (whether in the article name, or the lead). If it's tagline, then it is a marketing gimmick, and thus not appropriate for the infobox or the lead. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 21:13, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- And you keep saying that this is advertising ?, I see you know nothing about telenovelas. This is not advertising, but I see you do not understand.--Damián (talk) 21:47, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- What is the purpose of the slogan if it imparts no actual information about the show? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 22:08, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- For example, see this article, The original title is "Marido en alquiler" but the motto of the telenovela is "Señor no, ¡Señora!" Then the other motto is where the title goes, slogans are part of the titles but they should go elsewhere parameter. But hey if they want so be it.--Damián (talk) 22:37, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm still trying to figure out what "Señor no, ¡Señora!" has to do with Marido en alquiler, not that I wish to have it explained to me. — Wyliepedia 10:25, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- It is the motto of the telenovela, I think you'd understand if you saw soap operas, now at wikipedia Spanish, Portuguese and French use this parameter. And do not think this is the case of a method of advertising or something. The truth is that I can not explain it, because I see that you know nothing about soap operas, but is something like a subtitle title to part of the soap opera.--Damián (talk) 15:26, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Please don't say that we don't know about soap operas, because we do. I was around a long time before the internet, in the days when the local area had only two TV stations and you were pretty much forced to watch soap operas for entertainment. However, I can't get my head around this motto thing that seems to be unique to telenovelas. Is it something that appears on screen, or is it something that is spoken, similar to "Like sands through the hourglass, these are the days of our lives"? --AussieLegend (✉) 16:08, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- ok, was somewhat exaggerated to say that do not know, but I say anyone who watches soap operas will know what I mean. For example the soap opera El color de la pasión, or slogan is subtitled "Directo al corazón", The motto appears in the same logo of the novel, then why can not use the theme of the soap opera in the template ?.--Damián (talk) 16:37, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think, Damián, that if you're having a difficult time explaining why the slogan is noteworthy, it's probably going to be difficult convincing the community that the slogan is worthy of inclusion in the infobox. Perhaps the slogan can be included in the prose? I see some precedent at Alien (film). That film's tagline "In space no one can hear you scream" is known the world over. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:56, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think there is a fundamental language problem here. I did some cleanup at Marido en alquiler and some problems were immediately obvious. Damián doesn't seem to understand the purpose of the
|preceded_by=
,|followed_by=
or|related=
parameters,[2] despite an attempt to explain on his talk page.[3] He still seems to think scheduling is relevant and has even told me that telenovelas are not TV series.[4][5] One of the issues was the massive violation of WP:REDNOT, which I fixed.[6] I later tagged the entire cast section for cleanup,[7] which resulted in the WP:REDNOT violations being restored.[8] Until such time as we can get somebody to converse in Damián's own language, I don't think we're going to resolve the motto problem.- Oy. Thank you for trying to help Aussie. I do feel like the language issue is the crux of the problem. Not trying to fault Damián, but I think that will solve a lot of these issues, and make these telenovela articles much better. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:05, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think there is a fundamental language problem here. I did some cleanup at Marido en alquiler and some problems were immediately obvious. Damián doesn't seem to understand the purpose of the
- I think, Damián, that if you're having a difficult time explaining why the slogan is noteworthy, it's probably going to be difficult convincing the community that the slogan is worthy of inclusion in the infobox. Perhaps the slogan can be included in the prose? I see some precedent at Alien (film). That film's tagline "In space no one can hear you scream" is known the world over. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:56, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- It is the motto of the telenovela, I think you'd understand if you saw soap operas, now at wikipedia Spanish, Portuguese and French use this parameter. And do not think this is the case of a method of advertising or something. The truth is that I can not explain it, because I see that you know nothing about soap operas, but is something like a subtitle title to part of the soap opera.--Damián (talk) 15:26, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Oh god, best forget the subject, it does not interest me.--Damián (talk) 05:06, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Options for RFC
Hey, I'm going to open an RFC about the genre/format parameters. Here are the current options on the table:
- Option 1 - Change nothing.
- Option 2 - Cut both the Genre and Format parameters.
- Option 3 - Delete Format parameter. Leave everything else the way it is.
- Option 4 - Delete Format parameter. Require genre to be reliably sourced. Limit the number of genre to 4. (Optional: Create a list of acceptable general genre at WP:TVFAQ to exclude niche genres.) Adjust infobox documentation accordingly.
- Option 5 - Genre parameter should only contain entries from the "Literary genres" section of List of genres; the Format parameter should only contain entries from the "Film and television genres" section of the same list, with the exception of the entries in the "Live-action scripted" subsection since they largely duplicate the literary genres. ("Film and television genres" may be changed to "Film and television formats" and split in this case.)
Anybody want to add other options before I open the RFC? I can't remember exactly what the other preferences were for handling this, and I ain't about to sift through that brain-hurting text wall again. I'll wait 24 hours or so to get some other options. In the interest of keeping this section short, please limit your response to a simple option proposal. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:02, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- Added Dogmaticeclectic's original proposal. Feel free to fine tune the wording above if the proposal has evolved any. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:05, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've made a minor addition to that option. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 19:17, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
RFC: Format and Genre parameters
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The Format and Genre parameters of Template:Infobox television have long been confusing and previous attempts to clear up the confusion have not been successful.
The format parameter was the first of the two parameters to be created for the infobox. In 2005, a user proposed that format be changed to genre, on the basis that format is ambiguous. The lack of clarity about what format means, has existed ever since. A user once explained that format refers to the medium of the show: Live Action, Broadway Play, Animation, etc. But is that actually the case? Is Soap Opera a format or a genre? Is tape a format? Is Reality TV a format? Police procedural? Magazine news program? And does the average editor understand the difference? There was a time when the format parameter was removed from the template, but it re-appeared, and has been in place for a decade. The format parameter is not commonly used today. The template docs cryptically explain it as "the format of the show". Our reliable sources (ex: Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic) tend to lump format and genre together under "genre" for example here, where the genre for SpongeBob is "Comedy, Animation, Kids".
- Option 1 - Change nothing.
- Option 2 - Delete both the Genre and Format parameters. Template:Infobox film, for example, does not contain a genre parameter.
- Option 3 - Delete Format parameter. Leave everything else the way it is. Whatever the format is, will likely be explained in the lead or article body anyway.
- Option 4 - Delete Format parameter. Require Genre parameter to be reliably sourced. Limit the number of genre to 4. (Optional: Create a list of acceptable general genre at WP:TVFAQ to exclude niche genres.)
- Option 5 - Genre parameter should only contain entries from the "Literary genres" section of List of genres; the Format parameter should only contain entries from the "Film and television genres" section of the same list, with the exception of the entries in the "Live-action scripted" subsection since they largely duplicate the literary genres. ("Film and television genres" may be changed to "Film and television formats" and split in this case.)
Thank you for your input. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 05:47, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Survey
- Option 4 - Clearly something needs to be done, so option 1 should not even be considered. Format has always been problematic as nobody actually knows what it is supposed to be. Genres are widely used in the article lead and by WP:RS so I don't see any benefit with option 2. Unfortunately, a lot of articles contain genres that are clearly WP:OR so they need to be both defined and sourced. That eliminates option 3 because we can't leave things the way that they are. A discussion above highlighted the fact that List of genres contains some formats. Formats should not be in an article about genres. Instead the formats need to be removed and possibly added to Television program#Formats. It makes no sense to link TV infoboxes to literary genres when there is a specific "Film and television genres" section in List of genres. That gets rid of option 5. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:12, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- Option 4 - According to my research, Genre was created to replace Format but it just didn't stick. Satisfactorily defining what a format is seems problematic, since there appears to be a lot of bleed-over between formats and genres. On the list at Television_program#Formats, comedy appears to be presented as a format, not as a genre. Police procedural is listed as a format, but also as a genre at List of genres#Film and television genres. In common usage, Format and Genre are basically the same thing, so unless there is a clear way to differentiate the two (for example, if format were to describe the physical attributes of the series: animation, live-action, single-camera) then that might make sense, but it's probably not our place to be redefining these concepts. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:36, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- Option 4 - Per my colleagues above. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:31, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- Option 4 - The above explanations by both AussieLegend and Cyphoidbomb point out the difficulties with the variable definition of format, and said it much better than I ever could. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 01:41, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Option 5; but if option 4 is chosen do not limit the number of genres to 4, as it's an arbitrary number and no reasoning has been put forward for using that particular number in this case - in other words, it's an example of WP:CREEP and thus violates WP:NOTBURO (and may possibly be ignored per WP:IAR because of that). Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 09:16, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Infoboxes are supposed to summarise important points in the article, similar to the lead, and should not overwhelm articles by their presence, just as the length of the lead is supposed to be limited. It's standard practice to limit the number of individual entries in parameters so as not to overwhelm the article. This is one of the reasons that the instruction for the
|writer=
parameter say "Do not use if the show has many (5+) writers". If a parameter has too many entries, it's better to address it in the prose with a single link to the section in the infobox. We tend to ignore this principle only in the list of stars. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:41, 30 August 2014 (UTC)- Well, if there's another parameter with a similar restriction I suppose it makes a bit more sense, but can we have some consistency here? Can we have either 5 here or 4 there? Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 09:51, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The number I chose is somewhat arbitrary--I'm not married to it. Sites like Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes tend to use 2 or 3. I thought 4 would allow for some flexibility. My go-to example for genre idiocy is here, where 15 attributes are more than enough. 4 or 5 seem reasonable to me. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:58, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, it seems I misread something... the numbers are actually 4 in both cases, since the other one says not to use it for 5. Just ignore that particular aspect of what I stated above then (although I'm still unsure about the limitation in principle)... Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 19:08, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The number I chose is somewhat arbitrary--I'm not married to it. Sites like Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes tend to use 2 or 3. I thought 4 would allow for some flexibility. My go-to example for genre idiocy is here, where 15 attributes are more than enough. 4 or 5 seem reasonable to me. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:58, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well, if there's another parameter with a similar restriction I suppose it makes a bit more sense, but can we have some consistency here? Can we have either 5 here or 4 there? Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 09:51, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Infoboxes are supposed to summarise important points in the article, similar to the lead, and should not overwhelm articles by their presence, just as the length of the lead is supposed to be limited. It's standard practice to limit the number of individual entries in parameters so as not to overwhelm the article. This is one of the reasons that the instruction for the
- Option 4 - Unfortunately, that seems to be the best of those. I say "unfortunately" because the best thing would be to have a clear definition (with a list) of what a format is. Then the parameter could be kept. But, I guess that's not possible. As Cyphoidbomb pointed out, the closest thing we have is Television_program#Formats, and that's not clear and lacks references. This is somewhat similar to what is found in music (albums and artists) articles. There's a genre parameter, but some editors want a "style" parameter added, and since there's not one, it sometimes causes conflict because some want to add styles to the genre parameter, while others want to keep them out. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, with or without the format parameter there can be problems either way. --Musdan77 (talk) 01:23, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
- Option 4. Without a solid definition, it's probably too confusing to retain. It is useful in listing "animated" vs "live action", such as in The Simpsons, but such details can easily be covered in the first sentence of the lead. If both "format" and "genre" disappeared, it wouldn't be a tragedy, but a brief, reliably sourced list of genres can be helpful to readers who simply want to know the basic details quickly. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:38, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Discussion
Comment: Genre should be limited to 2 at most, the main genre. The film articles only use the main genre, video games use the main genre(s). The inclusion of some genres is very liberal. According to House (TV series) is a dramedy, a medical drama, and a mystery. Having some humour doesn't make it a dramedy or a comedy, medical drama covers the show aptly, and mystery? Similarly Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a supernatural drama, a horror, action, and fantasy show. Supernatural drama covers the majority of the show, horror would probably be ok as well although i question if it wouldn't fall under Supernatural drama. In fact, the article on supernatural drama states that the show is marketed as supernatural drama and only incorporates elements of horror. And action? Having some fight scenes doesn't make it a primarily action-oriented show. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 09:48, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Hi DWB: Infobox film doesn't have a Genre parameter. (Unless I'm missing it) If we're going to allow for the combination of formats and genres in the Genre parameter, I think it'll be difficult to limit it to two, since many of our sources typically ascribe 3-4 descriptions (a la comedy, animation, kids) or similar. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:04, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The film infobox does not cover the genre parameter Cyphoid, but WP:FILMLEAD does, where it states: "the opening sentence should identify the title of the film, the year of its public release, and the primary genre or sub-genre under which it is verifiably classified." I agree with Dark, that it should be limited to two genres at most, as he pointed out that one or can cover the multiple facets of a show. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:43, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- My feeling is that TV shows take on far more flavors than film does, so trying to sum up a TV series can be harder in some cases. Friends was a "multi-camera, live-action, sitcom", whereas The Bernie Mac Show was a single-cam, live-action, sitcom. That's three main attributes to describe the most important elements of the series. On the other hand, we could just describe it as a comedy. Two seems oppressive. Six seems slopppy and undisciplined. I'm rambling. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 06:44, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
- To me, in those examples, you gave a presentation classification (camera type), a style classification (live action vs animation) and then one genre. I don't see "single-cam" or "multi-cam" as a genre, much like in film, 3D is not a genre. Hope that made sense. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:15, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
- I think you are cleverly recategorizing some of these terms.
Multi-camera is absolutely a format for television comedy (as difficult as format is to describe) and not merely a "presentation classification". The difference between a multi-camera sitcom and a single-camera sitcom is obvious in terms of tone and aesthetics. According to Jim vs M*A*S*H*. Animation is also absolutely a format. But also a genre. And though you call it a style, I think style refers more to the difference between Miyazaki and Kricfalusi. When I think of format, I think of the physical attributes of the series: Tape. Cameras. Paint on plastic cels. Etc. Anyhow, enough of what I think--I'll go back to my original example of SpongeBob, which has sourced mashup genre of Comedy, Animation, Kids and even Adventure, Animated and Comedy. That covers a lot of territory, and if sources can be found, how do we decide which one or two to use? Animation and Comedy because it's in both? Just comedy? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:55, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
- I think you are cleverly recategorizing some of these terms.
- To me, in those examples, you gave a presentation classification (camera type), a style classification (live action vs animation) and then one genre. I don't see "single-cam" or "multi-cam" as a genre, much like in film, 3D is not a genre. Hope that made sense. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:15, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
- My feeling is that TV shows take on far more flavors than film does, so trying to sum up a TV series can be harder in some cases. Friends was a "multi-camera, live-action, sitcom", whereas The Bernie Mac Show was a single-cam, live-action, sitcom. That's three main attributes to describe the most important elements of the series. On the other hand, we could just describe it as a comedy. Two seems oppressive. Six seems slopppy and undisciplined. I'm rambling. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 06:44, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
- The film infobox does not cover the genre parameter Cyphoid, but WP:FILMLEAD does, where it states: "the opening sentence should identify the title of the film, the year of its public release, and the primary genre or sub-genre under which it is verifiably classified." I agree with Dark, that it should be limited to two genres at most, as he pointed out that one or can cover the multiple facets of a show. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:43, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Implementation
I've implemented the above change in the template itself. All of the articles at Category:Articles passing format parameter to Infobox television need to be fixed, either by replacing the format parameter with the genre parameter, or by removing it entirely. Jackmcbarn (talk) 02:05, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Hi, Jackmcbarn, thank you for your closeout. Was there any consensus on whether or not genre should be reliably sourced? Do we need consensus, or is sourcing implied? Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:31, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, consensus does require that genres be reliably sourced. Jackmcbarn (talk) 11:53, 24 September 2014 (UTC)