Please see User_talk:Arcadian#Template:DiseaseDisorder_infobox. If this box is going to be used, I will support a limited form that gives easy access to ICD codes, but I oppose the "cause", "diagnosis", "treatment", "incidence", "prevalence". The information in these fields is often very subtle, has regional variation and would be almost impossible to reference from this box. JFW | T@lk 23:18, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For psychiatric diagnoses, I would advocate a box that includes the DSM code in addition to the ICD. JFW | T@lk 23:18, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Concerning template:DiseaseDisorder infobox:

• Shall we move it to a shorter name?
• In the boxes you placed, each one says "hypoglycemia"
• Are we using ICD-9 codes (as you have done) or ICD-10 ones?

JFW | T@lk 5 July 2005 14:39 (UTC)

Per your questions: (1) "Shall we move it to a shorter name?" I wouldn't have a problem with moving it to a shorter name. I've seen lots of arguments about whether something was a disease or a disorder, and my goal was just to sidestep the argument by explictly incorporating both elements into the name. But if you wanted to move it to a new name, I wouldn't object. (2) "In the boxes you placed, each one says hypoglycemia". I apologize for my error. I was copying over the template, and forgot to substitute the name. It looks like you have already fixed this, and I thank you for doing so. (3) "Are we using ICD-9 codes (as you have done) or ICD-10 ones?" I see you have updated the template already, so that issue appears moot. I'll try to create a page List of ICD-10 codes, parallel to List of ICD-9 codes. Before I do so, do you know if 10 is free for us to use, and if there is a good site for us to get these codes? I know we had clearance on 9, per Talk:International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems. --Arcadian 5 July 2005 15:13 (UTC)

I cannot possibly imagine there would be restrictions of referencing to ICD-10 codes. There may be copyright issues on republishing the WHOLE list, which we may need to settle. All large health organisations use ICD-10 for coding, so I shouldn't think there would be a problem in using it.

Strictly speaking, do you think the box needs at the top? I'm open to persuation either way, but many articles have images at the top that would be cluttered with a box. On the other hand: where else would we put it? JFW | T@lk 5 July 2005 19:24 (UTC)

For your question about should the infobox be on top -- I don't have a problem if it isn't at the top. On the other hand, if your concerns was that it would conflict with other pages that have an image near the top, then we could incorporate a location for the image directly into the template. This could help provide a more consistent interface for the diseases. For example, this is what is done with albums (see [[1]].) --Arcadian 6 July 2005 20:31 (UTC)

Per the 9/10 issue -- how would you feel if we added a second line to the template, so that we could store both the 9 and 10 code. The 9 codes are still commonly used in the United States, and we also have a more explicit release to use them than we have for the 10 codes. Also, another user left a message objecting to 10-centric (?) orientation at Talk:International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (scroll to bottom). We could address this by adding another line to the template, and in a few years, if 9 codes become fully deprecated, then we could update all the disease pages at once just by updating the template. Any thoughts/objections? --Arcadian 6 July 2005 20:31 (UTC)

Sounds OK JFW | T@lk 6 July 2005 20:42 (UTC)

Ok, I've updated the template to include both 9 and 10, and fixed the linked pages where I had the codes (I have a source for 9 but not for 10, so I left those blank for now.) For the image idea -- I'll give people a week or so to object, and if nobody does, then I'll put that in. Thanks again for your assistance and guidance. --Arcadian 6 July 2005 21:06 (UTC)

I have put   instead of whitespace in ICD-9/10 code: because it tends to get broken into two lines if the text on the right hand side is sufficiently long (e.g. see Auditory processing disorder). Looks good to me now but feel free to revert if there's any trouble with this layout. GregorB 21:55, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

• Looks great! Thanks for the improvement Gregor! --Arcadian 22:26, 27 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not put ICD boxes on pages just dealing with a symptom[2]. This creates confusion and adds very little information. JFW | T@lk 06:26, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have created the Template:SignSymptom infobox to address your concerns. The ICD codes do add valuable information -- see the sections ICD 9 signs/symptoms and ICD 10 signs/symptoms. --Arcadian 15:24, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is continuing at the WikiProject Clinical medicine. JFW | T@lk 22:23, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Process

• Should each infobox be discussed here before adding it to the page, or should we add them to the page and then improve them incrementally? --Arcadian 00:36, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I was not suggesting this, but sometimes a box clouds matters and could be discussed on talk. JFW | T@lk 07:17, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Then we may be on complete agreement on this, then, and can close the item. I'm presuming that when you say "could be discussed on talk", you're referring to the normal Wiki process of incremental improvement, and if so, then we have no disagreement. However, if you were referring to something else in your prior communication to me, please clarify (feel free to create a new header below if you feel I have paraphrased your prior objections inaccurately.) --Arcadian 14:42, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

OK. JFW | T@lk 20:25, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Diseases/Disorders vs. Signs/Symptoms

• How should we handle conditions like Ataxia, which can be both diseases and signs? --Arcadian 00:36, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ataxia is a symptom, and it is caused by many diseases, ranging from inebriation to cerebellar infarcts and ataxia telangiectasia. It is not a disease in itself. The ICD-10 assigns an "R" code to symptoms that are not medical diagnoses. JFW | T@lk 07:17, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with everything you've stated. And I'd be happy to clearly identify symptoms in ways that made it clear that they were not diagnoses. But I do think there is benefit to providing clearer definitions of these symptoms and better distinctions between them, and I think that the ICD codes will help drive to that result. Was your objection to the perceived blurring between symptoms and diagnoses, or to the use of ICD codes on symptoms? Or something else? --Arcadian 14:42, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There are many symptom-related articles on Wikipedia that would not be associated with an ICD code. I think infoboxing symptom articles is best avoided, as it blurs the line between symptom and disease entity. Mentioning a symptom's ICD code is in itself not a problem... JFW | T@lk 20:25, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ranges

• How should we handle conditions like Leukemia, which is not a single disease with a single code but covers the ICD-10 range from C91-C95? --Arcadian 00:36, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is my view that putting a box on a page like this creates the impression that "leukemia" without a modifier is one disease (quod non). Chronic myelogenous leukemia should have a box, or acute promyelocytic leukemia, but not the disambiguation page. JFW | T@lk 07:17, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your view, but I can also think of some examples that would be ambiguous and hard to categorize. Could you help us come up with a way to define what constitutes one disease? --Arcadian 14:42, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ahhh. For a non-haematologist, "acute leukemia" is enough to scamper and call the haematologist on-call. For a haematologist, it may be of essential relevance whether the patient has ALL L1 and needs enrolling in UKALL-XII, or AML M3 and could end up on idarubicin and ATRA. Some articles have more than one associated ICD code, even though most doctors would agree that we're dealing with one disease. I can only recommend taking soundings at the WikiProject talk page if things are uncertain. JFW | T@lk 20:25, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There appears a reference numbering problem in articles that are making use of this infobox as well as ref/note templates (see Keratoconus). I have notified the last editor, but have left the infobox template in its last state for the time being. BillC 12:48, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I could reproduce the problem described by BillC at User talk:Adrian Buehlmann#Template:Infobox Disease). I am puzzled. Thinking now what could be the cause for that (using my playgrounds User:Adrian Buehlmann/work/Keratoconus/1 and User:Adrian Buehlmann/work/Infobox Disease/1 in order not to disturb articles). --Adrian Buehlmann 14:28, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seems fixed with this edit. Strangely, after doing tests in my sandboxes, I found out that several pipes ("|") had to be removed in order to fix a false offset in reference numbering of Keratoconus. For example I had to change:

! [[Diseases Database|DiseasesDB]]
| [http://www.diseasesdatabase.com/ddb{{{DiseasesDB|}}}.htm {{{DiseasesDB|}}}]
|}<noinclude>

to:

! [[Diseases Database|DiseasesDB]]
| [http://www.diseasesdatabase.com/ddb{{{DiseasesDB}}}.htm {{{DiseasesDB}}}]
|}<noinclude>

I don't know why but I had to remove the pipes ("|") from {{{DiseasesDB|}}}. Very strange. I do not understand why, but it seems to be fixed now. --Adrian Buehlmann 15:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]