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Luxembourg's numbers are wrong[edit]

hi, the numbers of luxembourgish casualties are a little wrong. As often described in multiple books, the percentage of casualties compared to the total 1939 population of luxembourg is around 2%, making it the highest loss suffered by a country in western europe. this is mainly due to the battle of the bulge ravaging half of the country. Anyway i have the following numbers out of this book: Michel Pauly : Geschichte Luxemburgs , 2013, ISBN-978-3-406-62225-0 p.102:

  2848 dead luxembourgers forcefully serving in the german Wehrmacht
  2048 dead civilians due to military actions (mainly Battle of the Bulge)
  1208 dead deported luxembourgish jews (in concentration camps)
   791 dead deported luxembourghish political prisoners (in concentration camps) 
   154 dead luxembourgish civilians who were forcefully resettled in the east 
    57 dead luxembourgers due to military actions serving in various allied forced

  7106 total casualties -> which brings it to 2,45% of the total prewar population of luxembourg, like described in many books: highest perecentage loss   of any western-european country.

This information is in my opinion very important, because the very high death-toll luxembourg had to endure during WWII made the allies recognize Luxembourg's important contribution to the allied war effort and with it Luxembourg's independence was never questioned again. (like after WWI when Belgium and France questionned the commitment of luxembourg to the Entente cause.)

Can somebody please put this right ?

Thank you very much Letzebuergerr

Update citations[edit]

hi, citation #11's link is actually http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm instead of the one that's currently on the article. the website switched domains and I would like to see an edit reflecting that.

The Graph[edit]

Can someone please replace or remove the graph showing ww2 deaths by country? Not only does it not count the Indians that died due to the Bengal Famine, it also downplays the deaths of Filipinos by putting the their deaths in "others" despite a million deaths, man this is really disgusting. If someone doesn't replace or remove that graph I'll do it myself. FIX IT NOW!! 120.29.86.230 (talk) 10:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Graph #2[edit]

Placing Lithuania and Latvia into Allied nations is dubious at best. Nazis were welcomed as liberators^[1] and the resistance was almost entirely foreign (poles and russians along with Jewish partisans) ^[2]. Casualties numbers are completely unreliable as the only census data available was from 1923 (nearly 20 years before the war) and 1959 (15 years after the war) ^[3]. The only point of consensus is that vast majority of casualties were Jewish, Polish and Russian.

Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2024[edit]

retrned = returned 2603:8000:D300:3650:AD45:E6EE:7A8:8B7C (talk) 20:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done M.Bitton (talk) 23:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Lithuania_during_World_War_II

[2] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Lithuania_during_World_War_II

[3] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Lithuania_during_World_War_II#Demographic_losses

[1]

[2]

[3]

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Latest revision as of 12:57, 9 June 2024

Luxembourg's numbers are wrong[edit]

Update citations[edit]

The Graph[edit]

The Graph #2[edit]

Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2024[edit]

Leave a Reply

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+{{Skip to talk}}
-==Early discussion==
+{{Talk header|noarchive=yes}}
-Why Post war alleged casulaties of Germany, should be listed among war casualties?? It is unlogical.
+{{Article history|action1=GAN
-AM
+|action1date=27 August 2007
-:We have added this fact because it is seen as a result of the war and because explicitly noting prevents people like you from incorrectly altering the total war dead to include it with no notation. Preemptive action in other words. [[User:Rmhermen|Rmhermen]] 23:41, Oct 17, 2003 (UTC)
+|action1result=not listed
-:: then why you did not add number victims of Stalin deportation to the list as well. The number is nonsense. There were 2 200 000 people expelled from Poland and similar number from Czechoslowakia, in case of Poland victims could be counted on thousands at most, Czechoslowakia the highest number I saw was 200 000 [[User:AM|AM]]. The matter of fact, the number maybe 1 000 000 total, 90% of it during the war. This is POV.
+|action1oldid=153638331
+|currentstatus=FGAN
+}}
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+}}
+== Luxembourg's numbers are wrong  ==
+hi,
-What the!!!  France and Free French are listed as allied power, while Polish soldiers are listed as one of attacked countries? Is there a reason why Polish army is worse treatened than French?? And why Poles dying in Tobruk, Narvik, battle of England, battle of Atlantik, Falaise,  Monte Cassino and numerous other battles are counted as from country attacked by Nazis, and French are not? The list is ABSURD!!!
+the numbers of luxembourgish casualties are a little wrong. As often described in multiple books, the percentage of casualties compared to the total 1939 population of luxembourg is around 2%, making it the highest loss suffered by a country in western europe. this is mainly due to the battle of the bulge ravaging half of the country.
-----
+Anyway i have the following numbers out of this book: Michel Pauly : Geschichte Luxemburgs , 2013, ISBN-978-3-406-62225-0 p.102:
-It is also a list of ''military'' casualties. Perhaps this should be made apparent in the title, or some data on civilian casualties added?
-----
+dead luxembourgers forcefully serving in the german Wehrmacht
-Romania and Italy fought on both sides, but they aren't listed at allies casualities. [[user:MihaiC|MihaiC]]
+dead civilians due to military actions (mainly Battle of the Bulge)
+dead deported luxembourgish jews (in concentration camps)
+dead deported luxembourghish political prisoners (in concentration camps)
+dead luxembourgish civilians who were forcefully resettled in the east
+dead luxembourgers due to military actions serving in various allied forced
+total casualties -> which brings it to 2,45% of the total prewar population of luxembourg, like described in many books: highest perecentage loss   of any western-european country.
-I found here (http://www.actrus.ro/biblioteca/cursuri/istorie/babos_2/capitol_8.html) more details about romanians casualities (unfortunatelly is in romanian). There were 300,000 dead, wounded and missing in the east and 168,000 dead, wounded and missing in the west. [[user:MihaiC|MihaiC]] 5 Feb 2004
-----
-It says that the Soviet Union lost 19,180,000 ''soldiers'', can that be right? It then says that the total number of Allied soldiers lost was 17.2 million... something doesn't wash. - [[User:Eisnel|Eisnel]] 07:29, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
+This information is in my opinion very important, because the very high death-toll luxembourg had to endure during WWII made the allies recognize Luxembourg's important contribution to the allied war effort and with it Luxembourg's independence was never questioned again. (like after WWI when Belgium and France questionned the commitment of luxembourg to the Entente cause.)
-==Meaning of ''Casualties''==
-I linked through to this page from the main ww2 page. I think the fundamental problem with this article and a possible reason for the conflicting figures is that what the cacasualties is referring to here is not clear. The actual meaining of the word [[ casualties]] refers to those not only killed, but also those injured, however in this context i think it would be fair to say that casualties could be taken as meaing deaths (i think for the most part this is what the majority  of the figures reflect), in some cases where the numbers seem to be overly large (e.g. US Civilian) i think it may also refer to injuries.
-The easiest way to fix this would be to simly count deaths and make this clear (possibly change the name to World War 11 deaths). It would be very difficult to get even partly accurate figures of overall deaths and injuries form any of the listed countries let alone ones such as the USSR, China and Germany, there's a much better chance of accuraccy if it just refers to deaths.
+Can somebody please put this right ?
-On a general note some of the figures seem to be completely wrong anyway, for example the number given for Australian military casualties (i think actually referring to deaths) was about 16,000 less than the official stats (AWM), you could give or take a few hundred here and there or maybe even 1or 2 thousand, but 15000 when your only talking in the 10's of thousands is a big inaccuracy. The Australian War Memorial(AWM) site's page on casualties [http://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/statistics/ww2.htm] gives vastly different stats for a number of other countries as well.  The AWM is regarded as being one of the best war museums in the world and subsequently one of the best recorders of ww1 and ww2 history form not only Australia's perspective but the overall wars in general, so the stats given by them may be a better starting point for this page than the ones currently given.
-== new name ==
+Thank you very much
-'''World War II casualties''' reflects the name of [[World War I casualties]]. [[User:Kingturtle|Kingturtle]] 05:34, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
+Letzebuergerr
+== Update citations ==
-----
+hi, citation #11's link is actually http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm instead of the one that's currently on the article. the website switched domains and I would like to see an edit reflecting that.
-How about the casualties in the former [[Dutch East Indies]] / [[Indonesia]]? Weren't there any casualties?
-[[User:Meursault2004|Meursault2004]] 11:35, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
+== The Graph  ==
-----
+Can someone please replace or remove the graph showing ww2 deaths by country? Not only does it not count the Indians that died due to the Bengal Famine, it also downplays the deaths of Filipinos by putting the their deaths in "others" despite a million deaths, man this is really disgusting. If someone doesn't replace or remove that graph I'll do it myself. FIX IT NOW!! [[Special:Contributions/120.29.86.230|120.29.86.230]] ([[User talk:120.29.86.230|talk]]) 10:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
-I am not an expert on World War II casualties by any means, and I'd prefer not to get embroiled in a big political or ideological dispute. However, I think the most ridiculous thing on this page is the total of "50,048,383" casualties. Has anyone heard of [[significant figures]]? The number of Brazilian soldiers killed is listed as 943, which I have no reason to dispute. But consider the number of Yugoslavian soldiers, listed as 300,000. Surely there were not exactly 300,000 Yugoslavian soldiers killed; the number was a bit higher or a bit lower, and it was estimated to the nearest ten thousand or hundred thousand. In fact, it's entirely possible that the true number is 304,273 or 292,117, both of which can easily round to 300,000. So adding the Brazilian casualties to the Yugoslavian casualties and getting a seemingly-exact result of 300,943 is meaningless and implies a much higher precision than it really has. The total of 50,048,383 at the end is just absurd. I see no justification at all for thinking that we can get any more precise than, say, 50.0 million deaths, with three significant digits. --[[User:Bkell|Bkell]] 23:14, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
+== The Graph #2 ==
-: I didn't notice this comment at the time, but you're absolutely right.  I wasn't thinking straight when I thought of adding the totals.  Looks like someone's fixed it now :-)  Thanks for pointing it out Bkell!  Another thing: I suspect the totals do not correlate (within 3 s.f.) with the figures any more, but I'm too lazy to add them up again.  Anyone know of a convenient way to maintain the totals? --[[User:Ejrh|Ejrh]] 14:07, 2004 May 12 (UTC)
+Placing Lithuania and Latvia into Allied nations is dubious at best. Nazis were welcomed as liberators<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Lithuania_during_World_War_II</ref> and the resistance was almost entirely foreign (poles and russians along with Jewish partisans) <ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Lithuania_during_World_War_II</ref>. Casualties numbers are completely unreliable as the only census data available was from 1923 (nearly 20 years before the war) and 1959 (15 years after the war) <ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Lithuania_during_World_War_II#Demographic_losses</ref>. The only point of consensus is that vast majority of casualties were Jewish, Polish and Russian.
-== Brazil - casualities ==
+== Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2024 ==
-On 23 Mar 2004, user Pinnecco changed casualities of Brazilian soldiers, from 940 to 490, noting this as a "minor change" on Allied Soldiers killed, however many sources say 940 not 490 deaths. Anyone can give information on this? Is what he changed... confirmed? [[User:Planckton|Planckton]] 07:50, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
+{{Edit semi-protected|World War II casualties|answered=yes}}
-I may have found the reason on [http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm This page]. It appears that about 490 were killed at sea.[[User:Say1988|say1988]] 17:15, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
+retrned = returned [[Special:Contributions/2603:8000:D300:3650:AD45:E6EE:7A8:8B7C|2603:8000:D300:3650:AD45:E6EE:7A8:8B7C]] ([[User talk:2603:8000:D300:3650:AD45:E6EE:7A8:8B7C|talk]]) 20:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
+:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:M.Bitton|M.Bitton]] ([[User talk:M.Bitton|talk]]) 23:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
-== US Casualties Question ==
-Did more Americans die in the Pacific fighting the Japanese or did more die against the Germans? I read somewhere that said more Americans died in Europe. I became suspicious because US only fought against the Germans briefly in North Africa and less than 1 year from D-Day to April 1945 on the Western Front while the US had been fighting the Japanese since Pearl Harbor in late 1941.--[[User:SecretAgentMan00|Secret Agent Man]] 21:12, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
-== 6,000 US Civilian casualties? ==
-I was looking at this article, curious to see whether Australian civilian casualties were listed (there were a few hundred IIRC, Darwin was bombed on several occasions), and came across the figure of 6,000 US civilian casualties.  I didn't see that listed on the source page, so I'm wondering where the figure was from.  Does it include civilian shipping, or military nurses, for instance?  --[[User:Robert Merkel|Robert Merkel]] 06:17, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
-:Found it [http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm This page] gives "United States: Civilian: Britannica: 6,000. So presumably it comes from Britannica. [[User:Rmhermen|Rmhermen]] 13:08, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)
-I'm assuming that was in the Philippines, because at the time it was US territory.
-Philipines is listed seperately with 100000. The 6000 does seem high though. Perhaps there were casualties in Guam (which I believe was US territory) or other islands, and maybe some civilians on ships plus those from Pearl Harbour, but I dont see it adding up to 6000, this just seems a little of to me.[[User:Say1988|say1988]] 17:10, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
-''edit:''After leeoking at the page given above, this may include merchant mariners, which could easily add up to that
-== Norwegian Military casualties ==
-Could someone come up with the numbers and add them to the list? I know we (ie; Norway) lost more than a few good men during both the campain in Nowray in 1940, and also later in the war, espesially in the airwar.
---[[User:Nomist|Nomist]] 12:31, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
-Denmark
-Military:
-Britannica: 1,800
-HarperCollins: 4,339
-Info. Please: 4,339
-Civilian:
-Ellis: 1,000
-Britannica: 2,000
-All:
-Messenger: 7,000
-Page is on the 6000 US casualties heading
-== Military/Civilian ==
-If only 'military' casualties, then why does it include the Jews of Poland in the Polish figures? An interesting question: should the victims of the Holocaust/Shoa be counted as casualties of WWII or not?
---[[User:Nomist|Nomist]] 12:31, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
-:Please take note that the Polish Jews are included only in the [[World_War_II_casualties#Civilians_killed]] chapter. If your question is why the civilian casualties are included in the list of civilian casualties, then I can't help you. Anyway, why are the Jews treated separately? I mean, why is the approximate number of citizens of Jewish descent listed while there is no mention of other nationalities? I think we should stick to citizenship and leave the nationality thingie alone. [[User:Halibutt|[[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User Talk:Halibutt|tt]]]] 17:05, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
-::You're right to point out my confusion - yes, they are listed as civilian casualties under the 'civilians killed' heading. But my real question is whether or not we should include the victims of the Nazi Holocaust in statistics about deaths caused by the war. Anyway, for the sake of some clarity/consistency, I'm tempted to take out the bits in brackets after the Dutch and Polish figures, and add a note at the top of the table, saying that the figures include victims of the Nazi Holocaust. What do you think? --[[User:Nomist|Nomist]] 17:26, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
-:::Sounds reasonable to me. Especially that being a Jew in 2004 is something completely different than being a Pole who had some Jewish ancestors several generations back and was declared a Jew by the Nazis. Such distinctions seem arbitrary to me and IMO they don't belong to an encyclopaedia. [[User:Halibutt|[[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User Talk:Halibutt|tt]]]] 22:01, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
-==There were apparently far more than 3 million german military WWII dead !==
-There's a new, authoritative study of german military historian Ruediger OVERMANS, "Deutsche
-militaerische Verluste im zweiten Weltkrieg" (first 1999, Oldenbourg, Munich). Overmans questions
-the usually mentioned and accepted numbers of around 3.2 (to 3.5) german military dead, WWII.
-There were at least 5 Million german military dead in second world war, Overmans argues.
-Main reasons for the faulty ~3.2 million number: german recording system finally collapsed around 1944/45. More than a million missing (= also dead) were disregarded; another problems must taken into consideration, that hindered a somewhat accurate documentation of german military dead
-of WWII: fragmentary SS and other paramilitary organizations' records, the point "Volksdeutsche",  the splitting up of the nazi reich with following mess, etc.
-WernerE, Feb 18, 2005
---------------------
-==Two Indias?==
-In the Allied Military list there are two figures for "India", one of the links lead to [[British Raj]] and the other to plain old [[India]]. What is up with this? Is it a split of the real India casualties, is it data from conflicting sources? [[User:Danthemankhan|Danthemankhan]] 22:07, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
--------------
-==German civil casualties==
-Although apparently a factual error and misjudgement, the number of more than 2 million german civilian dead is announced here (but in brackets one can find: "200.000 to 2.000.000"). What should be taken for serious ?! There's no doubt that about half a million germans died in allied air raids and ground combat actions on the western front (in 1944/45) - the question is, how many civil germans died in eastern germany, final months of the war and at expulsion ?
-...Notice that, for example, the well known claim of 270.000 german dead at expulsion out of Czechoslovakia alone is unsustainable. Recent researches had the result that about the tenth part of this number meets reality, horribly enough. See: Detlef Brandes (ed.): "Erzwungene Trennung", 1999.
-WernerE, 25.3.05
-----------
-==The numbers does not seem to be added correct==
-The total numbers of Axis and Allied soldiers does not seem to add up. I did not change anything, but its easy to see (should be 18,1 - not 19,2 from the subtotals). There may be some other casualties included, but if so they should be stated. It is maybe wise to just list numbers in whole millions in the sum, as there is huge problems in finding out a total. [[User:Ulflarsen|Ulflarsen]] 20:07, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
-== Finland was not an axis power ==
-It is true that Finland was allied with Germany in WWII, but Finland was definitely not a member of the Axis. Perhaps there could be a section called "Other countries" or such?
-== Chinese Civilians ==
-,000,000 seems to be more than other sources indicate. [[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich Farmbrough]] 13:03, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-Yes could somebody please verify this claim. Moreover, the total number of casualties doesn't match with the 32 million Chinese.
-I agree with the two above posters. Even if you include ALL the civilian deaths caused by the Imperialist Forces from the Manchurian Incident in 1931 to the end of WWII in 1945, China couldn't have lost more than 20 million civilians.--[[User:SecretAgentMan00|Secret Agent Man]] 21:06, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
-== Again: German military casualties ==
-Statement - Deutsches Historisches Museum Berlin:
-http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/wk2/kriegsverlauf/wehrmacht/index.html
-...17 million served, of whom 4.7 million died, until 8th May, 1945.
-WernerE, 27 Apr 2005
-I've heard that Germany suffered around 30 000 casualties. Which must have been over half the population at the time, so that's huge. But I believe I've heard this more than once. The stats here show 'only' 7 760 000. Quite a discrepancy. Have I misunderstood something somewhere? This is somwhat important, sicne I've already included it in the main WWII article. [[User:DirkvdM|DirkvdM]] 10:47, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
-== India twice? ==
-Noticed that. [[User:Lotsofissues|Lotsofissues]] 09:39, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
-== comment to the unknown German/USSR specialist ==
-Dear comrade, it's very misleading to exclude millions of pow deaths of both sides.
-Therefore I have changed the numbers.
-It would be very nice if you name any serious source for your claims,
-Thanks, A German 23 May 2005
-P.S.: It would be better if you place your arguments on this side instead of adding them to the
-article.
-And, you see, the purpose of this site is not to discuss any "fighting efficiency" or sth. like
-that - here should shown the death toll of ww-2, nothing more.
-== Australian casualties... ==
-It seems trivial compared to the catacylsms that affected much of Europe and Asia, but for completeness  it'd be nice to have an accurate assessment of how many Australian civilians were killed in WWII.
-:[http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/air_raids/casualties.htm This page] lists 31 civilian casualties in Darwin, but there were bombings in a number of other northern towns, I'll have to see what else I can dig up. --[[User:Robert Merkel|Robert Merkel]] 03:57, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
-:[http://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/statistics/ww2.htm this AWM page] cites 735 civilian casualties. --[[User:Robert Merkel|Robert Merkel]] 04:02, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
-That second source there also says that there were 39,366 Australian military ''deaths'' (i.e. not counting wounded), so where does the figure of 23,400 in this article come from? [[User:Grant65|Grant65]][[User talk: Grant65| (Talk)]] 13:48, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
-:Dunno, that's a good question.  I suspect the AWM figure is probably reasonably accurate. --[[User:Robert Merkel|Robert Merkel]]
-==Pies charts==
-Should the Pie charts be "from" each country, not "in" each country, otherwise it shows that more allied casualties occured in the US than france, and virtually noe occured in the pacific/southeast asia.[[User:Say1988|say1988]] 17:24, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
-:I agree. Something else, though. Wouldn't a total pie chart make more sense (at least alongside these two)? [[User:DirkvdM|DirkvdM]] 10:47, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
-==Italy==
-shouldn't italy's civilian casualties be included? It may be difficult to place them in the charts, but it make it look like there were none. Romania and bulgaria are the same. [[User:Say1988|say1988]] 17:28, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
-== Combined? ==
-. On the main page there should be a combined total number deaths of human beings during the period of WW2 as a result of the war, civilian or likewise, irrespective of their political side.
-. The number of total human deaths as part of the second world war (see above) should be exported to wikipedia's official world war 2 page.
-Also, the size of the soviet unions casualties in the pie charts seems disproportional to their actual losses in the table.
-==Indian Civilian Casulties==
-Currently the table states that approximately 2,150,000 Indian civilians died in the War. Where did this figure come from? The Japanese never reached India itself so how did so many INdian civilians die? [[User:Lisiate|Lisiate]] 04:03, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
-: Mostly of starvation. See [[Bengal famine of 1943]]. [[User:Grant65|Grant65]][[User talk: Grant65| (Talk)]] 13:50, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
-:Ahh, that explains it. Thanks for clearing that up. [[User:Lisiate|Lisiate]] 21:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
-== Polish - Soviet losses in World War Two ==
-The data for Poland on this table includes the territory ceded by Poland to the USSR in 1945. The Soviets also pick up this territory, with about 10.0 Million people, in their population base. The author of this table should assign the losses in this territory( about 2.3 Million people) to either Poland or the USSR. The Soviets considered this territory as part of the USSR in October 1939.
-Polish losses should be allocated as folllows
-Western Poland          1939 Population  23.4 Million, War Losses -  3.300 Million (A)
-Territory Ceded to USSR 1939 Population  11.6 Million, War Losses -  2.300 Million (B)
-(A)- Includes 2 Million Jews, 1.2 Million Poles and .2 Million ethnic Germans
-(B)- Includes 1 Million Jews,  .7 Million Poles and .6 Million others( Ukrainians & Russians)
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 22:57, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
-== Japanese War Losses ==
-Japanese war losses were the subject of an official report by General McArthur's staff in
-Tokyo in 1948. The report entitled "Annual Changes in Population of Japan Proper 1 October 1920-
-October 1947" is a detailed analysis of the demographic impact on Japan due to World War Two.
-The data in this report indicates that Japan suffered about 3.1 Million excess deaths due to
-the war and its aftermath. At that time an additional 767,000 Japanese were missing or awaiting
-repatriation in the USSR and China.
-The author John Dower in his books "War Without Mercy" and "Embracing Defeat" cites Japanese sources which list a total of 2.6 Million Japanese dead due to the war. Military deaths(1937-45)
-are listed as 1,740,955, civilians killed in bombings as 393,367, civilians killed on Okinawa
-at 150,000 and 245,000 Japanese as missing and presumed dead after being captured by the Soviets in Manchuria. This does not include excess deaths due to hunger and disease after the  war and deaths due to radiation exposure in the atomic bombings.
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 22:57, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
-== Total combined loss of life ==
-. There was descrimination in both this article and the main ww2 article concerning the total deaths only being those of the allies.
-. Changed and calculated all statistics on both this page to draw a irrispective number of human deaths disreguarding political afilliation. I believe this is in order to maintain wikipedias stance of nutrality.
->>refer to previous revisions of both this page and ww2 drawing the total loss of life directly from that of the allies and not taking into account those of the axis.
-== Ethiopian War Dead 1935-41 ==
-The Official Report published by the Ethiopian government in 1946 listed the following
-casualties as a result of the Italian invasion and occupation
-Military Dead:                        353,500
-Civilian Dead in Bombings:             17,800
-Victims of massacres & executions:     89,000
-Deaths due to "privations owing to
-destruction of villages"               300,000
-Total                                  760,300
- --[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 21:30, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
-== German Military Dead- Countries of origin ==
-"Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkreig" by R. Overmans lists
-on page 335 the national origin of German war dead:
-Germany & Danzig                4,456,447
-Annexed Territories
-(Polish corridor, Sudetenland, Memel) 206,452
-Alsace Lorraine                    30,135
-Austria                            260,749
-Slovenia                             4,000
-Eastern Europe
-(Baltic States, Poland, Rumania, Hungary)                 328,178
-Western Europe:
-Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, Norway & Denmark                      29,132
-Others                                 3,000
-Grand Total                         5,318,093
-Note: This DOES NOT include 215,000 Soviet citizens killed while fighting with the German wehrmacht and listed separately by the German High Command. They were not covered by Overmans.
-It should be pointed out that Overmans derived his data taking a sample of German High Command records using statistical analysis to estimate losses. These figures are not an actual count of war losses.
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 13:19, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
-== Italian War Losses ==
-The official Italian statistics on war losses are listed in - Ufficio Storico dello Stato Maggiore dell'Esercito. Commissariato generale C.G.V. . Ministero della Difesa - Edizioni 1986)
-This is a Summary of the data:
-Losses 1940 to Sept 1943
-Military : 197,066
-Civilian: In War Zones- 3,208 and 25,000 killed in air raids
-Losses Sept 1943-May 1945
-Military: Partisans Italy 17,488;with Partisans in Balkans 9,249; In Germany 1,478; POW's killed
-by Germans 41,432; with Allied Army in Italy 5,927; with Italian Fascist forces 13,000 and
-,731 POWS in Allied hands ( USSR)
-Civilians: Partisan war 37,288; by Germans 23,446; by Fascists 2,500; 38,939 in air raids
-and in allied captivity 300.
-Grand Total: Military Dead 313,371; Civilians 130,681
- --[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 23:20, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
-== German Civilian War losses ==
-Total German losses from 1939 to 1946 are given as 6.9 Million by Peter Marshalck in his
-"Bevölkerungsgeschichte Deutschlands"- (in German territory of 1937) . In "Deutsche militärische verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg" by Rüdiger Overmans the total military losses are given as 4.4 million(in pre war Germany only). How do we account for the remaining 2.5 million non combatants? The following is a summary of these losses.
-A. Germans from Prussia/Schlesia -Overmans in his above mentioned work estimates that 690,000 German civilians were killed in the Soviet 1945 offensive and Polish occupation. A Polish historian Stanislaw Schimitzek estimated the losses as being 556,000 in "Truth or Conjecture" published in Warsaw (1966). Most of these losses occured from January-May 1945 during the fighting.
-B. Allied Bombings- "The US Strategic Bombing Survey" estimates that 410,000 civilians were killed in air raids.
-C. Nazi Terror- R. J. Rummel in his work "Democide" estimates 763,000 Germans as being victims
-of the Hitler period.
-D. Soviet Justice- K. W. Fricke in "Politik und Justiz in der DDR" gives 90,000 Germans
-accused of war crimes as being executed by the Soviets or dying in Soviet prisons.
-E: Excess Deaths 1945-46 -Due to the conditions after the war an estimated 300,000 additional Germans died of hunger or disease. The death rate in the Soviet Zone went from 1.2% to an estimated 2.2% in 1946.
-F: Germans remaining in Poland- An estimated 200,000 Germans who remained in Poland
-were listed as dead or missing. The official West German government report on German Expellee losses published in 1958 estimated 1.1 Million Germans remaining in Poland in 1950. This was revised upward to 1.3 Million in "Die deutschen Vertribenen in Zahlen" by G. Reichling in 1986.
-G .The above cited work by Overman's also estimates the civilian losses suffered by the ethnic German civilians in eastern Europe( outside Germany's 1937 borders) as being about 400,000. These losses are in addition to those mentioned above within Germanys 1937 borders. Most of these losses occured from January-May 1945 during the fighting.
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 00:41, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
-== Poland's War Losses 1939-45 ==
-	 Poland's War Losses 1939-1945
-	 Polish Population (allocation by Religion)
-     Population
- A.       Estimated population on 1/1/39 ----------------------------------34,850,000
- B. 	 Eastern Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic and Lithuanian population --(7,900,000)
- C. 	 Ethnic German population (Volksdeutsch)--------------------------- (900,000)
- D. 	 Total Polish Roman Catholic  & Jewish population-----------------26,050,000
-     Population Shifts
- E.       Natural Increase 1/39-2/45   ------------------------------------1,250,000
- F. 	 Natural Increase 2/46-12/50 -------------------------------------2,080,000
- G. 	 German population remaining in Oder-Neisse territories-1950----- 1,308,000
- H. 	 Eastern Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic and Lithuanian Pop 1950 ------490,000
- I. 	 Immigration to Poland 1946-50------------------------------------- 152,000
- J. 	 Poles remaining in USSR after 1950--------------------------------(870,000)
- K. 	 Polish refugees in the west 1950----------------------------------(420,000)
- L. 	 Jewish refugees in the west 1950----------------------------------(140,000)
- M. 	 Population per Census 12/1950----------------------------------(25,000,000)
- N. 	 Estimated War Losses 1939-45------------------------------------- 4,900,000
-In addition to the above losses an addtional 500,000 former Polish citizens from the Ukrainian Catholic and Eastern Orthodox populations were war dead in the USSR during 1941-45. Losses of the ethnic German population of about 200,000 are also excluded. Total losses would be 5,600,000 if they were included with Polish losses.
-----
-PLEASE NOTE WELL
-THIS BALANCE OF 4.9 MILLION WAR DEAD INCLUDES 1.8 MILLION DEATHS WHICH ARE INCLUDED IN USSR WAR LOSSES. THE TERRITORIES WHICH WERE CEDED TO USSR BY POLAND ARE INCLUDED IN THE TOTAL SOVIET 1941 POPULATION OF 196.7 MILLION. WHEN COMPUTING THE TOTAL SOVIET WAR DEAD THE RUSSIANS ASSUME THAT THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF THE TERRITORIES OCCUPIED IN 1939-1940 WERE SOVIET CITIZENS DURING THE ENTIRE WAR PERIOD 1941-45. POLISH HISTORIANS ALSO INCLUDE THE POPULATION IN THESE TERRITORIES AS " POLISH CITIZENS" WHEN COMPUTING WAR LOSSES. IN ORDER TO AVOID A DUPLICATION OF WAR DEAD THESE LOSSES OF 1.8 MILLION MUST APPEAR IN EITHER THE POLISH OR SOVIET TOTAL BUT NEVER IN BOTH.
-----
-   REFERENCES
- A. 	 Population Changes in Europe Since 1939- G.Frumkin 1951
-         Population Changes in Poland by H. Zielinski-1954
-         The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954
-         Maly rocznik statystyczny Polski-Polish Ministry Information -London 1941
- B. 	  By Religion. Allocated according to 1931 census -
-          Maly rocznik statystyczny Polski-Polish Ministry Information -London 1941
-          The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954,
-         Protection of minorities in Poland- S. Loszinski-1999
- C. 	 Detailed in Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen- G. Reichling-1986
-,000 German military dead 1939-45, 90,000 civilian dead 1945-50
-,000 expellees in Germany 1950, 40,000 deported to USSR
- D.  	 By Religion. Allocated according to 1931 census
-         The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954
-         Maly rocznik statystyczny Polski-Polish Ministry Information -London 1941
-         Polish Roman Catholics 22,750,000, Jews 3,300,000
- E. 	 My Estimate based on data in Population Changes in Poland by H. Zielinski-1954
-         and The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954
- F. 	 Population Changes in Poland by H. Zielinski-1954 ,European Historical Statistics-1980
- G. 	 Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen- G. Reichling-1986 ,
-         Truth or Conjecture? S.       Schimitzek -1966
- H. 	 Protection of minorities in Poland- S. Loszinski-1999
- I. 	 Poland a Historical Atlas- I. Pogonowski
-         Immigration of 150,000 Poles from western Europe
- J. 	 My estimate based  1959 Soviet census data of former Polish territories.
-         The number of Jews in this total is no more than 70,000.
- K. 	 European Refugees- M. Proudfoot-1956
-         The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954
- L.  	 Historical Atlas of East Central Europe- P.R. Magocsi
-         European Refugees- M. Proudfoot-1956
-         The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954
- M. 	 European Historical Statistics-1980
- N.      Estimated losses -German occupation-4,100,000 ( including 3.0 Million Jews)
-         Estimated losses -Soviet occupation-400,000 (including Poles in Soviet Army as
-         well as Soviet terror)
-         Estimated losses -UPA terror-100,000-Poles massacred by Ukrainian forces.
-         Polish Military Dead-100,000 in regular units and up to 60,000 in resistance forces.
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 01:27, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
-== Poland's War Losses-1939-45  ==
-The US Holocaust Memorial Museum has published a report "Poles as Victims of the Nazi Era"
-that points out that often quoted figure of 6 Million Poles killed in the war as being
-incorrect. They point out that historians in post communist Poland now believe that Poland
-lost between 4.8 and 4.9 Million as a result of the war. The reason for the revision downwards
-is that the Polish government report of 1947 assumed that all Poles had been repatriated from the USSR. In fact about 900,000 Poles choose to remain in the USSR or were denied permission to leave. After the Stalin era from 1955-58 the USSR allowed 245,000 Poles to emmigrate. The 1959 Soviet census of former the Polish territories listed 700,000 persons who gave "Polish" as their ethnic group. Also about 100,000 Poles who were deported during the war still remained in Siberia. The proof of Polish survival in the former Soviet Union is a resurgence of the Roman Catholic church in the western Ukraine and Byelorussia since 1989.
-The following two Polish language articles explain in detail why losses were 1.1 to 1.2 million less than what was previously thought.
-Both articles appeared in the Polish Journal Dzieje Najnowsze # 2- 1994
-Czesław Łuczak - Szanse i trudności bilansu demograficcznego Polski w latach 1939-1945
-Krystyna Kersten- Szacunek strat osobowych w Polsce Wschodniej
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 02:37, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
-== Soviet War Losses 1941-45 ==
-A Russian language source was published in 2004 entitled " Poteri Narodonaselenia
-v 20 veke" by Vadim Erlikman. The book is a reference guide to population losses in every
-country on the planet from 1900 to 2003. The author adds copious footnotes which
-lists the sources of the data, often he uses Soviet and Russian sources that are not well known in the west.
-Here is his breakdown of Soviet Losses from 1941-1945
-Killed in action or died of wounds - 7.6 Million
-(including 215,000 in German forces)
-POW's who died in captivity- 2.6 Million
-Partisans killed in battle- 250,000
-Citizen Milita killed in battle- 150,000
-Civilians killed in fighting- 1.5 Million
-Civilians executed/killed by Germans- 7.1 Million
-Civilian dead in Nazi concentration camps- 600.000
-Civilian dead in forced labour in Germany- 1.2 Million
-Civilian dead of hunger or disease- 5.5 Million
-Civilians executed/killed by Soviets- 200,000
-Civilian dead in concentration camps(GULAG)-1.2 Milion
-Civilian dead due to Soviet deportation -300,000
-GRAND TOTAL - 28.2 Million
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 03:11, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
-== Yugoslavia Casualties 1941-45 ==
-Yugoslav losses during WW2 have been the subject of debate in recent years. Tito stated in 1945 that 1.7 Million died in the war. This became gospel in Yugoslavia until 1990 but has been shown to be incorrect. Yugoslavia suffered a demographic loss of 1.7 Million from 1941-1945, including the deportation of 400,000 ethnic Germans, 140,000 Italians and 80,000 Yugoslav's who fled to the west. The actual losses related to the war were between 1.0 Million and 1.1 Million. This does not include victims of communist terror in the postwar era.
-The following sources explain the problem in detail.
-The Population of Yugoslavia- U.S. Bureau of Census 1954
-Population losses in Yugoslavia during World War Two- Johann Wuscht 1963
-Yugoslavia manipulations with the number Second World War victims - Vladimir Zerjavic 1993
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 11:37, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
-== Malta 1939-1945 ==
-Malta lost about 2,000 civilians in Axis bombings during the war and about 100 Maltese
-were killed serving with UK forces. I think these brave people deserve a line on the
-list of WW2 casualties.
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 11:54, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
-== Africa in World War Two ==
-Africans from the colonies of the UK, Italy and France served and died in the war also. I believe your table includes them in the UK and France totals. Africans served with UK forces in the campaigns in east Africa and Burma, their losses were 4,000 KIA. The French had Africans serving in special colonial divisions, 10,000 were KIA. The Italians had Eritrean and Somali colonial soldiers that fought in the 1935-1941 East Africa campaigns, 8,000 were KIA.  It is not clear if they were included with Italian casualties.
-Your table includes the US colony the Philippines but excludes African nations. Why? I think they deserve at least a footnote.
-The data on African losses mentioned above comes from Poteri Narodonaselenia
-v 20 veke by Vadim Erlikman.
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 13:09, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
-== Japanese Allied Forces ==
-R. J. Rummel in his book "China's Bloody Century" mentions on page 123 that an estimated
-,000 Chinese died while serving in the puppet forces during the Sino-Japanese War and
-he also estimated on page 192 that 50,000 puppet soldiers were massacred by the Kuomingtang
-when the war ended.
-Vadim Erlikman in his book " Poteri Narodnaceleniya v 20 Veke" mentions on page 71 that
-an estimated 100,000 Koreans served in the Japanese military during WW2 and that 10,000
-were killed in action. He also estimates that 20,000 Japanese civilians residing in Korea
-were massacred in 1945 at the time of liberation.
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 01:13, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
-== Civilian losses in Southeast Asia 1941-45 ==
-In his Statistics of Democide R. J. Rummel covers the subject of civilian deaths due to the
-Japanese occupation of Southeast Asia. These losses are also listed in Vadim Erlikman's
-"Poteri Narrodonaceleniya v 20 Beke"
-The following is a recap of civilian losses by both authors.
-                 Rummel       Erlikman
-IndoChina      -----------------------487,000 ----------------2,065,000
-East Indies    ----------------------375,000 ----------------1,990,000
-Singapore      -----------------------200,000 -------------------75,000
-Malaya                 -------------------------83,000-----   -------------------600,000
-Burma                  ---------------------------60,000          ----------------1,070,000
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 01:13, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
-== Hungary's Losses in World War 2 ==
-The Centre for Mulitiethnic Research at Uppsala University in Sweden has published a paper
-entitled " Hungary's Human Losses in World War II" by Tamás Stark. This study was sponsored
-by the Raoul Wallenberg project in Sweden. Tamás Stark is affiliated with the History Dept.
-of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. His summary of Hungary's WW 2 losses is as follows.
-Military:
-KIA- 110-120,000 including 20-25,000 Jews who died in forced labor units.
-MIA- 200,000 POW's who died in Soviet Labor camps.
-% of these losses are from the territory within Hungary's present borders and the remainder
-from the territories occupied by Hungary in Rumania, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.
-Civilian:
-Losses in the territory of Hungary's present borders only:
-Jewish Holocaust victims -220,000
-Civilians killed in fighting 1944-45 44,000
-Total losses in the territory of Hungary's present borders - 470,000.
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 10:05, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
-== New casualties numbers? ==
-[[User:Berndd11222]] has posted a lot of information above on casualty numbers of WWII.
-I recommend that a summary is posted here on the discussion page, that is,
-a summary which states which numbers should be updated, including the current number.
-Example:
-* Soviet Union, Military: 7 -> 10,6
-* Soviet Union, Civilian: 13 -> 17,6
-* Soviet Union, Total: 20 -> 27,6
-In this way, it will be easier for the users to review and discuss the numbers.
-Later, when and if, the numbers in the article are updated, I strongly recommend
-further use of footnotes for the numbers (as is partly present in the current article).
-In the footnotes, special explanations can be written and, very importantly, the source(s) stated.
-I also believe that the Casualties article should have a dedicated section called "Sources". In this section sources could be listed like this :
-'''Sources'''
-These are the sources used for numbers concerning:
-* Soviet Union : Erlikman, Vadim. ''"Poteri Narodonaselenia v 20 veke"''
-I would contribute and help this article if I felt I had knowledge on these subjects. Sadly, I don't, so my contribution will be limited to the recommendations I just mentioned. Good luck, however!
-Regards, Dennis Nilsson. [[User:Dna-webmaster|Dna-Dennis]] 06:54, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
-== Re New casualty numbers? ==
-When I see a casualty statistic I ask the following question:
-Is the source reliable?
-For example when the UK government reports that 264,000 military died in World War 2, I consider the data to be reliable.
-When I read that Khrushchev announced that the USSR lost 20 Million in World War 2, I checked the numbers.
-The methtodology is actually quite simple:
-Step 1 - Start with the prewar Census Population
-Step 2- Add live births
-Step 3-  Subtract natural deaths( non war related )
-Step 4- Adjust for changes in territory. For example add the population of the Baltic states to the USSR total in 1940.
-Step 5- Adjust for population movements, immigration and emmigration. For example subtract the
-,000 ethnic Germans sent out of the USSR in 1940.
-Step 6- Add the data and compare it to the post war census. The result will be your war losses.
-In the 1990's the Russians opened the archives and found that the Soviets had falsifed the
-census and vital statistics data, losses were understated. The actual lossses were about 27-28 million in the war, including 5 Million behind the lines in Soviet held territory.
-As a rule of thumb I always check any claims that are made regarding casualty statistics
-I welcome any comments on the notes I have posted on various World War 2 casualty topics.
-Bernd
---[[User:68.236.161.237|68.236.161.237]] 17:21, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
-== Re New casualty numbers? ==
-== SERIOUSLY FLAWED ==
-The article list the number of deaths at nearly seventy million yet the single reference the page uses gives the number at 55 million! The website listed is by no means authoritative and yets is the ''only source listed''. For some reason the Red Army officers killed in Stalin's purge have been listed. The German casualties are almost backward. It is estimated over 4 million German serviceman were killed and about 1.6 million civilians by bombing raids and expulsion by the Red Army. 6,000 U.S. civilian deaths are given, yet the only ones I know of are a family that was killed by a Japanese balloon. Anyone care to explain that. All my figures are taken the from The Second World War by John Keegan which iss regarded by many to be the best one volume book on the war. User:IndieJones|IndieJones]] 22:06, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
-== Re seriously flawed ==
-The US civilian casualties were about 5,000 Merchant Marine. Also 1,000 civilian internees never
-came home. R J Rummel in his "Statistics of Democide" Page 37 mentions that 590 US civilians died in Japanese captivity. The Nazis interned Americans in Europe, about 200 died including a
-few Jews killed in the camps.
-The table also includes 33,500 UK merchant mariner deaths in the total of 90,000 UK civilians
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 23:09, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
-== Luxembourg war losses ==
-Most of 4,000 military dead were with the German armed forces. About 200 died fighting with
-the Belgians. They need to be moved into the Axis section.
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 00:12, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
-== Iraq May 1941 ==
-The Iraqi army lost 1,000 KIA when the British occupied the country in 1941. They need a line.
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 00:21, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
-== UK Colonial troops ==
-Check the UK casualty figure of 264,000. It does not include colonial troops. The Colonials
-need a line for their 8,000 dead.
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 02:05, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
-== POLAND -Proposed change ==
-POLAND LOSSES WW2
-MILITARY- 200,000
-CIVILIAN -5,400,000
-TOTAL-5,600,000
-NOTE- Includes losses in territory ceded to USSR by Poland in 1945 of 2.3 Million
-Source- See remarks by Prof. Tadeuz Piotrowski on Polish casualties.
-http://www.projectinposterum.org/
-Go to section entitled- European War Casualties
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 10:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
-== GERMANY-Proposed change ==
-Losses WW2
-MILITARY- 5,300,000
-CIVILIAN- 2,600,000
-TOTAL- 7,900,000
-NOTES:
-Military Losses- Germany(1937 Borders)4,440,000; Austria-260,000; Ethnic Germans from other
-European countries 600,000.
-Civilian Losses- Germany(1937 Borders) 2,100,000; Austria- 100,000; Ethnic Germans from other
-European countries 400,000.
-Sources:
-Peter Marshalck -"Bevölkerungsgeschichte Deutschlands im 19. und 20. Jahrhundert"
-Rüdiger Overmans-"Deutsche militärische verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg"
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 10:22, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
-== USSR Proposed Change ==
-USSR Losses WW2
-Military - 9,800,000
-Civilian- 14,400,000
-Total- 24,200,000
-Notes: Does not include 2,300,000 civilian dead in territory ceded to the USSR by Poland in 1945. Military losses include 200,000 in German forces that are not in German total.
-An estimated 400,000 partisan and milita losses are included in the military total.
-Sources:
-G.F. Krivosheev-Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses - Translation of 1993 Russian publication.
-Russian Academy of Sciences-St. Petersburg 1995- Ludskie Poteri SSSR
-Erlikman, Vadim. "Poteri Narodonaselenia v 20 veke"
-Andreev, EM, et al. NASELENIE SOVETSKOGO SOIUZA, 1922-1991. Moscow, Nauka, 1993.
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 10:38, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
-== JAPANS LOSSES-PROPOSED CHANGES ==
-Japans war losses 1937-45
-Military- 1,930,000
-Civilian-   700,000
-Total-    2,630,000
-Notes:
-Military losses include 190,000 missing in China and USSR after being captured in 1945 and
-,000 lost in China from 1937-1941.
-Losses do not include an estimated 500,000 puppet troops in China
-Sources- John Dower - War Without Mercy and Embracing Defeat
-Berndd--[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 16:30, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
-== Hungary's WW2 losses- Proposed Changes ==
-Hungary's WW2 Losses:
-Military: 300,000
-Civilian: 280,000
-Total: 580,000
-Note: Military losses are for entire Hungarian Army including men from Slovkia, Rumania and
-Yugoslavia drafted by the Hungarians. Civilian losses are only for Hungary within its current
-borders.
-Source: Tamás Stark -Hungary's Human Losses in World War II
-berndd--[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 16:59, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
-== Yugoslavia WW2 casualties -Proposed Changes ==
-Yugoslavia WW2 Losses
-Military- 200,000
-Civilian -800,000
-Total - 1,000,000
-Source:
-Yugoslavia manipulations with the number Second World War victims - Vladimir Zerjavic 1993
-berndd--[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 16:59, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
-== US WW2 Losses ==
-Per the US Dept of Defense the total losses were 405,399 during WW2
-Berndd--[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 16:57, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
-== The new numbers ==
-I have a question for the person who posted the new numbers today.
-From which source did you copy the numbers?
---[[User:Berndd11222|Berndd11222]] 23:28, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
-== Changes back to old ==
-== Changes back to old ==
-I have made two changes today, September 11 2005, because i feel that for many people the older verion was of a much better design, while not as statistically effective, the Axis, Allies design is more informative and clearer.
-Considered, it would be a very effective idea to combine the qualities of the older table and new table, taking the colum headings of the new tables and placeing them in the old axis and allies seperate tables.
-I also felt that the newer table was incomplete. It made to many estimates and the totals were overly rough and not correctly combined.
-I would have done this task myself if it were not for the avaliability of a close enough version in older hashes of this article
-I also modified the Combined totals heading that i originally designed and wrote on this article because many recent updates have made it repedative with its statistics, ineffective, overly rough and considerably hard to understand.
-I am happy that the figure of 50 million has been applied to deaths in world war two as a close enough estimate. So long as it accounts for the deaths of ALL humans irrespective of their political alignment.