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Why put a transgender person among the other women and not, I don't know, a female midget? Or a woman with down syndrome? Is it arbitrary, or is there a reason? --JimmyBroole (talk) 22:13, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

>muh feelings — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.118.64 (talk) 13:52, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, there was a reason. Without a trans woman, the image is too kind to the point of view of ignorant people who think trans women aren't real women. Georgia guy (talk) 17:55, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Woman refers to the female of the human species. This is determined by XY_sex-determination_system. Trans_woman is an entirely different article and outside the scope of the article Woman. This has nothing to do with trans rights, this has nothing to do with your feelings, this has everything to do with the article being about woman as it relates to XY sex determination of the human species and transwoman is far outside the scope. A redirect + trimming of the article of the topic or consolidation with a link towards Trans_woman would help this article.65.29.77.61 (talk) 10:25, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You mean, trans women are just pseudo-women?? Georgia guy (talk) 12:46, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

They are not FEMALE by the definition of XY_sex-determination_system, which is what the entry Woman refers to. If there was no difference on any level why would you be calling them trans women? You obviously concede that via there is something different about them by your very label for them. Please do not take a snarky attitude when you want to discuss topics either, it's rude and uncalled for. This goes for the person below this entry as well, please do not fall do crappy attacks on a person even when they are wrong. 65.29.77.61 (talk) 04:16, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

They're not women at all. If you're XY, you're male.

Is there a reason why your definition of woman should be considered more highly than others, or for that matter trascend basic biology in supporting social causes? I'm not expecting you to be familiar with the concept of immorality, nor with aesthetics (poor Venus), but surely a person with your knowledge - confident enough to call others ignorant - would know what a bias is, and why a public encyclopedia should not be used for visibility, as a means for divulging your beliefs. But of course, it takes integrity and thoughtfulness for that knowledge to actually find expression. --JimmyBroole (talk) 08:00, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's the definition used by people who understand transgenderism properly. Georgia guy (talk) 13:07, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, maybe I wasn't explicit enough: are you able to articulate an actual, sensible argumentation in response to what I wrote above? If you want adult talk, act like an adult. --JimmyBroole (talk) 17:52, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not acting in any particular way. Just read Wikipedia:Gender identity and it will make more sense to you that trans women are real women. Georgia guy (talk) 18:01, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting extremely insulting, both as personal attacks and in terms of discussion about trans people. Please stop and focus on the article. The article discusses trans women a fair amount. Having a trans woman in the image collage is reflects that. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:42, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

EvergreenFir, please note that (common to both this discussion and a higher one in this talk page) the one I'm arguing with is the one whose fault it is. Please put some kind of banner on the talk page. Georgia guy (talk) 18:45, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the kind notice on my page, EvergreenFir. Would you be kind enough to respond to my second edit? And by the way, what is insulting about all this, exactly? --JimmyBroole (talk) 20:07, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome for the notice. I try to let all folks know about such discretionary sanctions as a courtesy.

This page is for discussing the article, so I will keep the answer to your question brief. You are insulting a fellow user, say that calling a trans woman a woman transcend[s] basic biology, and mention immorality in apparent reference to trans folks. Further discussion about individuals should be done on user talk pages, not here. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:13, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So, being discretionary sanctions active in transgenderism-related pages does not allow for actual discussion, is that correct?

Nevertheless, you have absolutely no basis for calling simple statements "insults", not for what is common biological knowledge, nor for what you call an "apparent reference". And, needless to say, this is not a discussion about individuals. --JimmyBroole (talk) 21:03, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion is allowed. Disparagement is not. Again, your comments on "basic biology" and "immorality" were uncalled for and insulting. If you meant either of them in a manner different than what I said, please specify so so that I may correct myself. That said, this is not the place to "debate" the womanness of trans women. We have plenty of sources that discuss it and are cited in the article. Personal opinions of editors on the topic are not notable.

Please see WP:PA. Calling other users names or implying lack of intelligence is a personal attack.

Your comments are insulting to me. And I'm sure I'm not alone. Please stop. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:17, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, let me just reformulate my original question, hoping to not accidentally insult you this time, and that you will be kind enough to answer: considering the obviously controversial and complex subject that is transgenderism and the sociological and psychological implications and what not that come along with it, and considering the neutral stance that Wikipedia should naturally take on such controversial topics, what was the process for this page to actually decide to go with the nonchalant implication that a transexual woman is a woman, following the addition of Laverne Cox in the picture, right next to Venus? --JimmyBroole (talk) 22:03, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I fail to see how the 'neutral' stance on transgenderism is that people are the gender they were assigned at birth and nothing else ever, which is a rather fringe stance to take. Wikipedia reflects what respectable, reliable sources say, and those echo the sentiment that a persons gender is more than the innie and/or outie they were born with. Laverne Cox is a woman, and a very notable one whose inclusion in the montage reflects the content of the article. PeterTheFourth (talk) 08:03, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

/* Why */ I think the person in the first image is biologically male, according to wikipedias own pages on male/female of the species.31.49.123.45 (talk) 22:37, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Arguing with anyone about what a "real" woman is will be ultimately fruitless. Suffice it to say that for any purposes on this page someone will be regarded as a woman if reliable sources say they are a woman. WP:ABOUTSELF sources apply. Rhoark (talk) 21:52, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Woman refers to the female of the human species on a genetic level. Sources do not refer to Cox as a woman in this regard ever. No one will ever try to proclaim that Cox has a genetic structure matching a human female. Trans_Woman exists because the definition and connotation of the word woman has included transgenders as women in a social and legal way(Which full disclosure: I am fine with and accept). This article is for Woman as in human female, which requires specific genetics and biological structures. I think trans women is just outside the scope of the article but worthy of linking towards. There are a myriad of other entries that trans-woman=woman is very acceptable, but this entry I would disagree with it. 65.29.77.61 (talk) 04:21, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome to that definition ("female at a genetic level") if you like it, but we won't accept it unless you can find enough reliable supporting sources to rebut all those which refer to trans women as a subcategory of women. FourViolas (talk) 06:32, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Compare this article with female. Also see sex and gender distinction. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:46, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I propose we take a vote on the inclusion of Cox in the collage.

Wikipedia decides things by discussion, not majority. For example: what do people think of the idea that Ms. Cox, while a woman according to reliable sources, is not the most important human female in history and ought to trade places with another image? FourViolas (talk) 06:32, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with discussing a possible replacement image, but if the collage is to give due weight to the article's content, at least one trans woman should be in the collage. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:46, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification: I was suggesting Cox swap positions with another image currently in the montage, so that the prime example of womanhood is not a recently-popular celebrity. I agree that it's of encyclopedic value to illustrate many kinds of women, including a trans woman. FourViolas (talk) 05:14, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I had indeed misunderstood. I can fairly easily and quickly change the order of the collage around if that will make folks happy. Before Cox was added, it was in quasi-historical order, so a rearrangement would make sense. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:20, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think that would at least cut down on the number of people dropping in to argue about the validity of transgender identity. FourViolas (talk) 05:43, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding what FourViolas stated (the "05:43, 13 April 2015 (UTC)" post), including the mention of WP:Due weight, I've wondered why no one has simply moved the Cox image. Editors have repeatedly complained about Cox being the first image in the collage. Flyer22 (talk) 05:53, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's because those editors are people who don't understand that trans women are women. They look at transgenderism the easy way; that is, as people who arbitrarily fake/lie about their gender. Can you correct what I'm saying about what they think?? Georgia guy (talk) 13:02, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not all of the editors who stated, or rather suggested, that Cox shouldn't be first have made it a case of not believing that Cox is a woman; that includes the IP in the #Cox first - really? section above. Flyer22 (talk) 13:10, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh! I thought you were merely talking about people who think Cox shouldn't be in the image at all because they don't think trans women are women. Georgia guy (talk) 13:16, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have rearranged the collage. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:42, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And here is the link for documentation on this talk page. Flyer22 (talk) 05:28, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, @EvergreenFir:, I didn't realize it was that simple. FourViolas (talk) 07:33, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't the term woman appear in the first book of the Holy Bible and wouldn't that predate the etymology described here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.76.148.172 (talk) 16:55, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The book of Genesis does predate the English word "woman," even though it references women. This is because it was originally written in Ancient Hebrew. FourViolas (talk) 17:58, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What citations are there to prove that people born with XX chromosomes but identify as female are female? I see none from reputable sources but I do see a fair few CN tags that have yet to be answered despite a significant amount of time passing. The references to transsexuals should be taken out and put into the the page on transsexuals. Cacra (talk) 23:43, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

People born with XX chromosomes who identify as female are female. People born with XY chromosomes who identify as male are male. Surely this is tautologically true, as no one claims otherwise. - Nunh-huh 04:44, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, what? XX chromosomes and identifies as female is cisgender... not trans. But what's the problem with including trans women here? There are plenty of sources about trans women being women... EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:15, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

EvergreenFir, I know that that's the (essentially) unanimous consensus of gender studies, but my quick look for a definitive quote in a respected introductory textbook found nothing on Google Books. Do you happen to know of something that would fit the bill? FourViolas (talk) 11:48, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]