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This article is pretty bad already, perpetuating a lot of repeatedly debunked propaganda to hype the new cold war against China. It's one thing to use "respectable" sources that then depend on Zenz's "research", which helps at least preserve the verneer of credibility. But the use of Adrian Zenz as a source for anything in an article about China ought to be taken with a heaping grain of salt considering his inability to do basic math and his comedic religious beleifs about g-d wanting him to fight big bad China. This is hardly a neutral academic, mind you, perhaps some of the claims coming from him should not be taken at face value? If China ACTUALLY wanted to genocide Uyghurs, it would take away their passports, revoke their status as the titular people of Xinjiang (which is officially Xinjiang UYGHUR Autonomous Region), demote Xinjiang to a regular province, expell every Uyghur from Xinjiang, not give them an exemption to the 1-child policy for decades, ban the their Perso-Arabic alphabet, force them to call themselves Hui or Tatar, (per the Soviet model for de-Crimeanizing indigenous Crimeans). But they are doing the exact opposite. This article smells like propaganda and hasn't lived up to scrutiny nor time.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 17:50, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you have any edits you would like for the community to consider, please list them out for everyone to consider. If you have any reliable sources that refute Zenz's statements, please feel free to discuss them. Wikipedia is a collaborative environment, and the articles are written from the understanding and sources available to the volunteers who edit the pages. Chrisagrant (talk) 12:16, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia has no standards when it comes to China or any other geopolitical competitor of the West unfortunately.PailSimon (talk) 17:32, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have lived in China for more than 25 years and this article sounds like complete nonsense. Too many westerners have a Yellow Peril mentality when it comes to China. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.152.164.63 (talk) 12:38, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Adrian Zenz is part of The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, established by the US government in 1983. It was described by journalist Joe Conason as "the organizational haven for neo-Nazis, fascists, and anti-Semitic extremists from two dozen countries," according to US media outlet The Grayzone. Zenz claimed to have provided some statistics for the Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI). ASPI has been exposed as a "right-wing, militaristic" think tank funded by US and Western governments, mega-corporations and weapons manufacturers. https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1197187.shtml GrignardReagent007 (talk) 19:01, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Neither The Grayzone nor Global Times are WP:RS. See WP:RSP for more details. If you can find criticisms from reliable sources, this can be considered. Chrisagrant (talk) 12:16, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The section "the portion of the net increase that occurred in Xinjiang made up 80%, while the portion of new placements without subtracting removals that occurred in Xinjiang was 8.7%" makes literally zero sense and is not backed up by the primary source at all. So to arrive at his number, he did: 3774318 Total IUDs implanted - 3474467 Total IUDs removed = 299851 and then he took the Xianjiang numbers: 328475 IUDs implanted - 89018 IUDs removed = 239457, Now the math says he's right! (238457 IUDs added / 299851) * 100 = 80%. But, wait a minute. What about the other regions? Let's pick some just two others Hebei: 295684 IUDs implanted - 111425 IUDs removed = (184259 Net IUDs / 299851) * 100 = 62%, Henan: 342451 IUDs implanted - 136170 IUDs removed = (206281 Net IUDs / 299851) * 100 = 69% Now, obviously 80% + 62% + 69% is way more than 100%, so what is going on here? Oh right Adrien Zenz is a terrible source and complete hack and nobody here even bothered to check the numbers of his updated "justification" for getting his basic math wrong. Remove this nonsense already, it's been debunked so many times it's actually cringe it's still in this article. - Psydonk (talk) 15:44, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure we should be summarising the primary source ourselves (especially as it is in Chinese), and making our own calculations based on its data is a clear example of original research. The paragraph should end after the secondary sources are quoted. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:16, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Adrian zenz got his evidence literally from exiled ughur media Internet tv report at face value. How is that even reliable? Because western governments are claiming him to be? I think instead of just claiming him as an expert and hiding the evidence or lack of real evidence. Also Adrian zenz writes books on why Communism, homosexuality, gender equality is Satanism corrupting the world and yet he's the expert on xinjiang.

Wikipedia should at the minimum, mention exactly how Adrian based his million count. As anyone looking deeply can see that he's literally using an Internet TV report from a biased source aka Istiqal media to back his claims. And that really should be mentioned in better detail.

https://sizeof.cat/post/adrian-zenz-jamestown-foundation-manipulate-free-press/ 49.180.226.13 (talk) 06:53, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Some more credible sources would be nice.. Tisthefirstletter (talk) 04:58, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Using a title such as 'Uyghur genocide' not only neglects the strong evidence that there is not a genocide in Xinjiang, but also mislead the reader automatically into believing things that the Western media has already indoctrinated them. I request for the title of this page to be changed. ––GrignardReagent007 (talk) 18:59, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The title is less then ideal however the lead of the article makes it clear that these are accusations.PailSimon (talk) 20:44, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I support the renaming idea. Calling things like this genocide renders the word overused and meaningless.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 17:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@PlanespotterA320 Honestly, all I'm thinking about is how the world has almost forgotten about the situation with the Rohingyas in Myanmar. All genocides suck, but it's sad when the value of one's life depends on where you're in thanks to geopolitics. There's so much plight for the Uyghurs (e.g. World Ugyhur Congress, etc) but there are hardly any for the Rohingyas. ShelteredCook (talk) 23:20, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GrignardReagent007 Genocidal denial isn't allowed on Wikipedia. If you deny that there isn't a systemic attempt to forcibly incarcerate, sterilize, and erase Uyghur ethnic identity I don't think you should be on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is banned in China due to censorship attempting to bring it here doesn't help. Des Vallee (talk) 21:53, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To deny a genocide, there should be one to start with. Well maybe it is banned in China for good reasons, as many attempt to rewrite history in an extremely subjective manner. That, is in fact against WP:NPOV ––GrignardReagent007 (talk) 22:27, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GrignardReagent007 Maybe you shouldn't be on Wikipedia if you think Wikipedia is banned in China for "Good reasons" nor should you be on Wikipedia if you think there is no genocide. Des Vallee (talk) 22:30, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is my freedom and responsibility to make sure that content on Wikipedia is as objective as possible. If that is indeed what you are against, then maybe you reflect on your own approach. --GrignardReagent007 (talk) 22:33, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GrignardReagent007, you do not have the freedom to start chattering about indoctrination by Western media or whatever: it is a violation of WP:AGF and disregards WP:RS. I urge you to drop those kinds of accusations from any future comments on Wikipedia. Drmies (talk) 22:37, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Totally agree with Drmies. Also, WP:NOTFREESPEECH; "freedom" is not an excuse for unacceptable behavior. Normchou ^💬 23:00, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PailSimon What do you think would be a better and objective title to reflect the current situation in Xinjiang? --GrignardReagent007 (talk) 22:35, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you're going to scream "genocide denial", there first needs to be strong evidence of an ACTUAL genocide or ethnic cleansing - ex, banning Uyghur script, stripping status as titular people of Xinjiang, etc. Arresting Islamist terrorists in a time of rising extremism, a few "eyewitnesses" that drastically change their statements over time, and "research" by end-times tinfoil hatter and his anti-China defense-contractor sponsored think tanks are hardly a slam-dunk. I pointed out that the situation of Uyghurs in Xinjiang, as titular people of the autonomous region, is nothing like that of people who have faced actual genocide, and instead of trying to support your argument, (ex, finding INDEPENDENT research and sourcing not tied to Falun Gong, Zenz, sponsored by governments in feuds with China and/or defense contractors that indicates a steep population drop), you went ad hominem and screamed genocide denial. We at Wikipedia must be consistent in what we call genocide. If we call what is happening in Xinjiang genocide (disproportionate incarceration and discrimination, but with a steadily increasing population permitted to live in their historic homeland and keep identity), we would render the word genocide near meaningless and then have to apply it to thousands of other articles (where there is a wide-held consensus that "genocide" is not a proper descriptor).--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 02:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Disagreed. Aside from the obvious camel's nose fallacy in the above argument, what people call "atrocities" today might well be "business as usual" in the past, but that would not change the nature of such conduct. The goal of Wikipedians is to build a better encyclopedia, NOT to act like some frozen-in-time "language police". By the way, to those who are pedantically obsessed with the title, the article genocide definitions might be useful. Normchou ^💬 05:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC); edited 17:41, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Normchou, I'm not sure why you would call concerns about the title "pedantic." The goal in having Wikipedia reflect the prevailing historiography here is of significant import, I would challenge. As for the presumed usefulness of the genocide definitions page, I actually do not find that article that easy to parse, though admittedly, perhaps I'm missing something. El_C 18:00, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

El_C, I'm not sure why you would extrapolate my allusion to a specific type of behavior to all concerns of the title; assuming good faith, I hope this is just a misunderstanding. Reasonable concerns of the title are helpful for building a better encyclopedia; in addition to that, I suggest that an editor should not narrowly focus on only the title when assessing the article. The content is equally, if not more, important. Normchou ^💬 18:21, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Normchou, obviously, there are various facets to the subject that are of import. The title is just one of these. But approaching it, in particular, through the tone and tenor of a "language police," is probably a mistake. As far as rhetorical devices go, it just doesn't seem that useful. Whatever editors decide is representative of the prevailing scholarly and mainstream consensus, will be..., well, that. And that's it. No need to embellish further. El_C 18:37, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. When in doubt, it is always helpful to review the overarching goal of the project. Normchou ^💬 18:50, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PlanespotterA320 We call it a genocide because the incarceration of 25% of the Uighur population, numerous eye witness, complete consensus, reports of forced sterilization are all consistent with genocides. Denying the Uighur genocide is genocidal denial, my good friend. What sources? What citations do you have to back up this bold and bogus claim offical records of Chinese government. Nearly every NGO like Amnesty International state it is a genocide, again nearly every independent board has found it as a genocide. All of which have also been active in exposing the western war crimes as well, so it can't just be "western propaganda". Des Vallee (talk) 06:31, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Two things, the article itself states that Amnesty International has no position on the "Uyghur genocide" so you're wrong to say every NGO calls it a genocide, even so the UN has yet to call it a genocide and most nations support China on this issue, secondly genocide denial is not neccessarily bad or prohibited, for instance Wikipedia denies "White genocide". PailSimon (talk) 13:47, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have any WP:RS which say that the Uyghur genocide is a conspiracy theory (I don’t even think official Chinese media goes that far, they tend to portray it as a misunderstanding caused by incomplete information available to the international media)? If not then thats an inappropriate comparison. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:14, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory for the comparison to hold. The point is that Wikipedia quite often engages in genocide denial, which is not a bad thing per se of course. PailSimon (talk) 14:42, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Genocide denial is actually a bit more than the sum of the two words makes out which is how you are using it. Care to rephrase now that you’ve learned what the term means? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:45, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well I mean if you want to morphemically twist the term 'genocide denial' to define it as that then to say that denying the "Uyghur Genocide" is genocide denial and therefore should not be done is begging the question.PailSimon (talk) 14:53, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The term “genocide denial” only means one thing... Wikipedia has never engaged in genocide denial. You were mistaken about what the term meant, thats OK but now that you know better getting defensive isn't helpful. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:57, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well sources are divided on whether or not it is genocide so the article should reflect that and not partisanly call it a genocide. PailSimon (talk) 15:01, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Glad we’re back on track. I think the outcome of the move discussion was clear and its too early to re-litigate it, the OP has also been indeffed as WP:NOTHERE. Also just to be clear the WP:COMMONNAME could still be Uyghur genocide even if there was no genocide, your argument needs work so its a good thing you have a year or more to work on it before we reconsider this question. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:07, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Generally Wikipedia calls contested things "X Allegations" or "Allegations of X" so if you are to be logically consistent it only makes sense that this article follows the trend. PailSimon (talk) 15:11, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not in titles we don’t. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:27, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the definition of genocide (again):

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole :::::::or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

You'll see there are five examples. One or more of those five examples by itself does not constitute genocide. There has to be "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." There is evidence of some of the five examples taking place in China, but there is no evidence that this is being carried out with intent to destroy the group. Indeed there is plenty of evidence of the opposite. AT the very least, no-one (even Zenz) suggests that the Uighur population is falling, only that the growth RATE is falling. Without hard evidence of genocide, the title of this article should be changed to "Crimes against the Uighur people." --Bacon Man (talk) 08:44, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Current title and documentation

Why are there no archives available for this talk page? What happened with the matter of the cultural genocide versus the current "genocide" (per se.) titles? I think this ought to be better documented.

My impression has always been that, above all else, genocide is associated with the liquidation of a population or population segment. Which is to say, ultimately, their murder. But this doesn't appear to be the case when it comes to the human rights violations that Chinese authorities are subjecting the Uyghurs to (though, regardless, these are obviously highly egregious violations). What we have, ostensibly being termed re-education, consists of the abduction of adults, followed by their confinement and torture for the purpose of breaking their collective spirits. At the same time, this is accompanied by the abduction of children so as to subject them to an intensive system of brainwashing ultimately aimed at assimilation through cultural erasure. I can't stress enough that this system of family separation constitutes child abuse on a mass scale. Child abuse of the most severe variety, sparing cases of outright physical torture and sexual exploitation. Obviously, contemptible beyond measure. Myself, I would like to see that notion of child abuse better explored by this article.

Note that the article on Reeducation is a redirect to the Brainwashing article. That makes sense when it comes to the children being abducted, but as for the abducted adults, the article (and notion) of Re-education through labor is probably more apt. Are conditions in Xinjiang re-education camps qualitatively worse than those experienced over the course of other past (or present) Chinese reeducation campaigns? I get the sense that they are. Are they quantitatively greater in scale? That I am unsure about. Finally, with regards to the current title, does it make sense for Wikipedia to take the side of defining it as a "genocide" (per se.) versus that of the more diffused cultural genocide descriptor? If so, why?

Myself, I'm pretty much agnostic about all of these questions at this point, but this is what crosses my mind as I glance at the current state of this article and its recent title change. The problem, again, is that upon attempting to investigate any of this, surprisingly, not only is there no documentation specifically about this title question at the top of the talk page, but there isn't even ordinary talk page archives being displayed anywhere for one to consult. What is happening here? This is a sloppy way to engage such an important topic, and the argument can be made that this sloppiness is harmful to the project's reputation. El_C 16:51, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why are there no archives available for this talk page? Not sure why it's not showed above, but there are some here 1, 2, 3. — Czello 16:55, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Adding {{Talk header}}, so at least there's that.¯\_(ツ)_/¯ El_C 17:03, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I mean all of that is just your unsubstantiated opinionPailSimon (talk) 17:19, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jeez, is this what passes for discourse here? Yikes. El_C 17:21, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PailSimon, the irony is that I am asking pretty much the same question you asked above, about whether or not it is genocide. Except, unlike you, I'm noting that I'm actually agnostic on the matter — so how is that an "opinion" (unsubstantiated or otherwise)? There's a point when extremely terse responses to detailed comments simply come across as being so vague, they basically amount to diversionary noise. So, please do better. El_C 17:38, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I mean what are you supposed to say to this for example - "Are conditions in Xinjiang re-education camps qualitatively worse than those experienced over the course of other past (or present) Chinese reeducation campaigns? I get the sense that they are" What exactly are you basing this on? You just assert it without explanation. There's not really much to respond to here.PailSimon (talk) 17:53, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not much to respond to with respect to what? That component (question) alone? My view is that there is nothing wrong with me having noted my current leaning toward answering that particular question in the affirmative — yes, that's right, based on my own overall impression. Which may or may not reflect reality or its prevailing perception therein. Ultimately, I think you calling it an "assertion" (outright) is too strong a word. It was not meant as a rhetorical question. El_C 18:20, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Change the title The U.S. National Security Advisor Robert C. O'Brien recently said, "If not a genocide, something close to it going on in Xinjiang.” The U.S. Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, said, "When the United States speaks about crimes against humanity or genocide ... we’ve got to be very careful and very precise because it carries an enormous weight.” ("'Something close' to genocide in China's Xinjiang, says U.S. security adviser", Reuters, OCTOBER 16, 2020) Per neutrality, we should not use descriptions that even the avowedly anti-Chinese U.S. government is reticent to use. TFD (talk) 17:56, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It clearly is a genocides, it is the common name and almost all NGOs describe it as a genocide. Those who think this is all some sort of propaganda. The Four Deuces So wait is China not forcibly incarcerating 25 of the Uyghur population? So have mosques and other places of worship not been closed by Chinese government? What about the extremely widespread reports of sterilization, or rape? I get a bit sick speaking on these subjects, the term isn't "anti-Chinese" nearly every NGO refers to it as a genocide, this isn't some conspiracy at all TFD. If so there is no position you can state this. Per Common name there is absoultely no justification for renaming it. If we look at other reliable citations of independent NGOs like Amnesty International if anything they are more harsh towards China, this isn't a POV title it's a clear definition used by most independent organizations. Anyway we have an archive on this we can bring this up if this happens again. Des Vallee (talk) 18:36, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't a move request to change the title back to the cultural genocide title — rather, it is more of a query as to how and why the title was changed from that to the current "genocide" (per se.) title, in the first place. As to whether we should define the incarceration, assault (sexual and otherwise), forced sterilization, as well as any other abuses, as a "genocide" (again, per se.) is a perfectly legitimate question to pose. One which may be worthy of discussion — dispassionately, Des Vallee, if you will. Simply arguing that it's the COMMONNAME does not necessarily makes it so. Again, from my perspective, compiling decent documentation about how and why we are where we are would be a good thing. El_C 18:59, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why exactly are you placing so much weoght on the opinions of certain NGOs? Where does the absolute authority of these NGOs come from exactly? NGOs aren't the only reliable sources, if they are to be called reliable at all. PailSimon (talk) 19:05, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Per the BBC, genocide is "the mass extermination of a whole group of people, an attempt to wipe them out of existence." ("How do you define genocide?", BBC 17 March 2016) Your description does not meet that bar. The article then quotes experts who say that by overusing the term, it loses its meaning. They mention a speech by the renowned human rights expert, Michael Ignatieff. In the speech, he said, "Genocide has no meaning unless the crime can be connected to a clear intention to exterminate a human group in whole or in part. Something more than rhetorical exaggeration for effect is at stake here. Calling every abuse or crime a genocide makes it steadily more difficult to rouse people to action when a genuine genocide is taking place."[1] TFD (talk) 19:10, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can all agree that whether or not this rises to the level of genocide is a topic of ongoing discussion, at the very least it is two or three worst human rights situations currently occurring on our world. I though that this Quartz (I will admit they have a generally pro-China byline) piece [2] on the naming issue presented a good balance of views. Apparently there has been a change in academic/media consensus on the issue in 2019 and 2020. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:23, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• The Four Deuces and El_C, there seems to have been rough consensus for the move to Uyghur genocide at Talk:Uyghur_genocide/Archive_2. 5 oppose votes were stated as "per Buidhe", and Buidhe later changed their vote to move, further weakening the opposition to the move. Regarding El_C's point about lack of murder - we do have solid evidence of forced sterilization of Uyghur women. This biological component is what takes it from "cultural genocide" to "genocide, period". That said, I think we should better explain all this in the lead.VR _talk 19:27, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks, Vice regent. Again, I'm not sure whether forced sterilization should be seen as a novel interpretation of the "genocide" (per se.) definition, or whether instead it can be seen to accurately reflect the definition's modern iteration (and/or to what extend it is a combinations of both). But that is an interesting point to consider. El_C 19:38, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• By definition genocide is largely timescale agnostic and that lack of clarity is on purpose as the important elements are intent and effect with the rest being highly secondary, forced sterilization would 100% count as would much more subtle strategies of eradicating populations over long periods of time (such as failure to provide medical care, forced economic destitution, marriage restrictions etc). Historically we find cases such as the California genocide or Circassian genocide where there was little of the industrialized killing that we associate with certain famous modern genocides. On the larger issues you raise I think there are both practical questions of how to address this specific issue at hand and how philosophically wikipedia should handle occurring or alleged to be occurring genocide, one of the problems with the term is that it can only be applied with absolute accuracy after the conclusion of events (by which time of course such a discussion is on a level of academic much beyond WP:COMMONNAME). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Well said, Horse Eye's Back. I'm still not certain you're right about it being 100 percent a genocide, but that is certainly a cogent argument that leaves me with much to think about. El_C 21:42, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• @El C: That would be a bold claim and not one I would be willing to make, as far as I know the allegations of systematic forced sterilization are still allegations and are likely to remain so for a while even if true. There may be a better overarching term for the pattern of abuse we are currently seeing in western China, I’m not convinced that the current title is perfect but it represents a decent consensus as well as satisfying our naming requirements. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:03, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Okay, Horse Eye's Back, sorry for partially misrepresenting what you said. I still don't know if I agree with your conclusion, but I do take your more nuanced points on-board. El_C 22:10, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Strictly speaking the California genocide refers to the murder of 16,000 aboriginals.[3] In the linked article, the California governor apologized for the genocide, referring to the murders. Genocide, deportation and forced assimilation were three distinct but related actions taken against aboriginals. Similarly 400,000 Circassians were murdered. But the Uyghur genocide articles doesn't mention any mass killings. TFD (talk) 20:39, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• If you would like to completely re-write what we have now to change it to your "strictly speaking” definition per the publishers of Ancient Aliens, Pawn Stars, Swamp People, American Pickers, and Truck Night in America be my guest. Just FYI of their current lineup Ancient Aliens actually does the best job at actual history and the linked article doesn't even say what you’re claiming it does, but I digress. Back on topic: Mass murder is not now and has never been a necessary component for something to qualify as genocide. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:54, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Actually I was relying on experts such as Michael Ignatieff, whom I mentioned above. Now it could be that your interpretation of the definition of genocide is right, and most of the experts are wrong, but policy says we follow the experts. Don't know what the ancient aliens, etc., reference is meant to convey. But I think we should follow expert opinion there, rather than your personal interpretation of the evidence. TFD (talk) 21:08, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• You cited History (American TV network). Thats not my personal interpretation, I actually have issues with the traditional definition of genocide but thats as you said irrelevant. Ignatieff raises the exact same issue about intent being at the core of the traditional definition of genocide in the quotes you provide that I did in my comments. Lets get back on track: the source you provided does not say that "the California genocide refers to the murder of 16,000 aboriginals” it say "Up to 16,000 Native Californians died in the genocide” which does not limit the genocide to the murders at all. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:14, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I cited an article by Erin Blackmore, a journalist whose articles have appeared in "The Washington Post, NPR, National Geographic, TIME, Smithsonian, and The Atlantic."[4] I used the article to refer to the fact that the governor of California referred to the murder of 16,000 aboriginals as a genocide. Do you have any doubt he said that? If not, you're just being argumentative. TFD (talk) 21:34, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• It was a strange discussion. The reasoning for the move was that it met the UN definition of genocide. But that's OR - we would need to show that experts share that opinion, which for the most part they don't. It seems more like forced assimilation to me. TFD (talk) 19:44, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• If you knowingly push forced assimilation just a *little bit* too far it becomes genocide, the primary difference between the two of them is with the intent not the effect. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:26, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Logically speaking, how can deportation lead to genocide when according to your definition it is genocide? TFD (talk) 21:13, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Deportation alone could not make a genocide, it would need to be combined with other elements. Deportation could lead to genocide as it did in Nazi Germany but I can’t think of any case in which it qualified alone. Can you? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:22, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• No of course not. But you just said, "Mass murder is not now and has never been a necessary component for something to qualify as genocide." TFD (talk) 21:25, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Maybe, Horse Eye's Back, but it is a rather vague distinction. Regardless of whether one places more weight on motivation or outcome, I'm not sure an analysis of the teleology and epistemology of that question should happen sort of in the abstract. As for deportations, it largely describes the Armenian Genocide, for example. Of course, deportations are not automatically genocidal. Finally, I doubt I'm the only one who is drawing a parallel between the Uyghur atrocities and those encountered in the American Indian Residential Schools. El_C 21:42, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Labeling the current situation as genocide is completely premature and improper given the lack of key genocidal elements (ex, official second-class citizen status or stripping of citizenship, banning of language, sharp population drop, etc). Furthermore, this article isn't even just about the situation of Uyghurs - it also brings up allegations by other minorities that do not consider themselves Uyghurs (like Kazakhs). It seems that the title "Uyghur genocide" was chosen simply because Uyghurs are the largest (and titular) people of Xinjiang and there was strong desire to use the g-word among a small group of POV pushers, even though the Strike Hard Campaign Against Violent Terrorism, (the proper and original article title), is not focused exclusively on Uyghurs but rather at various Muslim groups of Xinjiang experiencing separatist sentiments. At the very least, we should be consistent about the article corresponding to the title. Is this article about what one thinks is a genocide of Uyghurs in Xinjiang, or a listing of grievances and allegations from various Turkic peoples in Xinjiang with "Uyghur genocide" slapped on as title to be clickbait?--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 01:18, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@PlanespotterA320: thats not exactly right... This page was created in 2019 by Mikehawk10 and then rapidly built up by a large variety of editors. Strike Hard Campaign Against Violent Terrorism still exists, it does not appear to be "the proper and original article title” as you asserted. Perhaps you are mistaken? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:27, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Synthesis of published material says, "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." Can you explain why your assessment that the human rights abuses constitute genocide is not synthesis? Or if it is, why we should make an exception in this article. TFD (talk) 01:54, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• The current title is very much justifiable, as reflected in scholarly sources [5], books [6] and reliable news sources [7]. My very best wishes (talk) 16:57, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The abstract of your scholarly source says it explains why the label genocide is now being used by growing numbers of scholars. Policy however says that we should not present minority opinions as facts. TFD (talk) 17:15, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, after looking at the "Definition" section of this page and sources there, it appears the majority view right now it is probably a genocide. What would be an alternative title you think? My very best wishes (talk) 17:24, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Being able to correctly represent scholarly and mainstream consensus often proves challenging. It isn't that clear to me that "genocide" reflects the "majority view right now" — even though, at this point, I am leaning toward the "genocide" definition (which I wasn't at the beginning). Still, I will strive to keep an open mind. El_C 17:31, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• There's no challenge for the Holocaust, the Armenian genocide and a number of other incidents. What concerns me is that by taking a side in the debate, we are no longer neutral. Of course each editor can have their own opinions, but they're not supposed to influence editing. TFD (talk) 18:05, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Right (official Turkish narrative and Holocaust deniers, respectively, aside), but those do involve mass fatalities, which does not seem to be the case here. Thus, the classical genocide definition isn't actually hazy with those as it is with the subject, so I'm not sure it makes sense to draw such parallels about the challenges it faces when defined as a "genocide." El_C 18:17, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sufficiently familiar with the subject, but speaking about the casualties, we do not really know them, given the information "freedom" in China. One should realize that people in such camps are staring dying for a number of reasons including diseases, malnutrition and abuses. My very best wishes (talk) 20:23, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Same. Still, I'm not sure how practical it is to hide mass fatalities, in general, even in a country like China. Even in a country like North Korea, in fact. That much mass death usually ends up being leaked, or otherwise discovered, like with satellite imagery, and so on. Anyway, until actual data, even of the most tentative nature, has been made available, it largely remains in the realm of speculation. El_C 21:05, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, this is not Holocaust or Armenian genocide, I agree. But an imprisonment of a million people based on their ethnicity and religion, allegedly with forced sterilizations [8] is significant. Some Uighurs were taken from Tajikistan and Cambodia into Xinjiang [9]. They did complain about genocide [10], to the International Criminal Court, but it said China is not party to the court’s founding treaty. Hence my personal inclination would be to keep current title. My very best wishes (talk) 22:32, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Even those who aren’t saying genocide are saying some very dark things. See the op-ed by British Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis in the Guardian [11] where he describes it as "an unfathomable mass atrocity.” Seeing as no-one else has been willing to suggest alternate titles “Persecution of the Uyghurs” would probably satisfy WP:COMMONNAME but a small standalone Uyghur genocide page to explain that argument would be needed as the topic passes WP:GNG on its own. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:38, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you mean, My very best wishes, and I don't necessarily disagree, but I also think that it can be a slippery slope for Wikipedia itself to come across as (figuratively) having said to China: 'so long as you keep giving the ICC the middle finger, expect your reputation to suffer accordingly.' A position which, otherwise, may not be unreasonable. Myself, however the atrocities being inflicted on the Uyghurs end up being defined as, I would prefer for that definition to find its basis in the prevailing historiography, above all else. Well, at least as much as is available post-2017... Horse Eye's Back, you could always redirect to a section. Not saying a standalone page is or isn't the way to go, but my sense is that we're not yet at the stage where we can answer that definitively, one way or the other. El_C 23:49, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I linked six RS above, and they all tell about "genocide" (whatever that means). So does this page in section Uyghur_genocide#Definition. That has nothing to do with me. My very best wishes (talk) 01:21, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Except you haven't provide six reliable sources and Uyghur genocide is not the common name. Common name means that's what it is normally called in reliable sources, not what you and your friends call it. TFD (talk) 01:38, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Four Deuces, uh, a bit better decorum than "what you and your friends call it," if you will. My very best wishes, I, for one, am not as sure as you are. And, to put it even more bluntly, just not that convinced by you at this time. El_C 05:42, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Take for example the AP article that was provided:

Some go a step further.

"It’s genocide, full stop. It’s not immediate, shocking, mass-killing on the spot type genocide, but it’s slow, painful, creeping genocide,” said Joanne Smith Finley, who works at Newcastle University in the U.K. “These are direct means of genetically reducing the Uighur population.”

Clearly this is being treated as an opinion, rather than the consensus of genocide scholars. I don't think we should be stating things as facts unless they are treated as such in reliable sources.

TFD (talk) 17:03, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Its being treated as the opinion of an expert which is a little bit different than being treated as a general opinion. Based on their CV Dr. Smith Finley appears to be a subject matter expert[12]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:18, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion is about the title of the article and whether we can use her opinion and others to assume that there is in fact a genocide, rather than that some experts have concluded that. In comparison, there is no doubt in any reliable sources that the Armenian genocide was a genocide and hence we use genocide in the article title. TFD (talk) 19:20, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Historical and ongoing is apples and oranges. The closest analogue is the Rohingya genocide whose genocide status is similarly contested. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:28, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Horse Eye's Back, the Rohingya genocide whose genocide status is similarly contested: primarily, as with the present case, by the government deemed responsible by those who do not "contest" the genocide. Chinese and Burmese governments are both similarly invested in throwing everything possible at avoiding the label of "genocide" being attached to their regimes, while self-consciously impartial sources will always quote experts when they want to use potentially controversial terms like "genocide" so as to avoid appearing to take a position themselves. There are always going to be someone contesting the word, in every case of genocide, but it would be false equivalence to imply that the "not-a-genocide" argument is very widely spread or commonly held out-of-universe. GPinkerton (talk) 23:16, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Those are very good points, you’re more than likely right. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:09, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just like the Holocaust and Armenian genocide, there is academic consensus that the Rohinga genocide was a genocide. The only people who denied they were genocides were the governments responsible and their supporters. So I will rephrase what I wrote: "The discussion is about the title of the article and whether we can use her opinion and others to assume that there is in fact a genocide, rather than that some experts have concluded that. In comparison, there is no doubt in any reliable sources that the Rohinga genocide was a genocide and hence we use genocide in the article title." TFD (talk) 12:33, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For comparison, Iraq prison abuse scandals is not titled "genocide". Keith McClary (talk) 00:38, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In light of the US State Department's determination that what has happened in Xinjiang does not raise to the level of Genocide, I think it is sensible to reconsider changing the title of the article. https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/ Dhawk790 (talk) 17:02, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It has been stated here that Western media has misled the public and formulated opinions that do not reflect reality. What hypocrisy from those defending the Chinese Communist Party (or more likely, commenting here in their employ).

The title of this article is entirely justified, since anyone with common sense, an education, and the will to carry out their own research is able to determine that genocide is taking place in Xinjiang, just as conclusively as one can state that the Chinese Communist Party invaded Hong Kong, released COVID intentionally (while instructing the WHO to mislead the world), and has continued attacking the free nations in a multitude of ways since.

Throughout 2020, the world watched racism being handed out by those claiming to oppose it. We're now watching the Chinese Communist Party preparing a report on Human Rights abuses taking place in the US as it genocides an entire people in Xinjiang.

The stench of Chinese Communist Party hypocrisy is clear to all, and we'll not simply ignore it because a few of their minions are proficient in the English language and are able to attempt to use our own values and laws against us. Liubaobei (talk) 08:47, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article should be renamed to "Uyghur Genocide Allegations" and the entire article should be reworded in neutral language. There is a clear POV being pushed.Exhausted-Sinologist (talk) 03:56, 11 March 2021 (UTC) This user has been blocked for being an account created for the purpose of block evasion. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 04:35, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is a pogrom, not a "genocide" - the Red Chinese are not trying to exterminate them - these actions are similar (if harsher) to those used by the Russian Empire against their Jews. If the Chinese gov't thought that the Uyghur had come "into line," the suppressions would end tomorrow.50.111.51.247 (talk) 11:24, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hey guys, is Americanization a Non-american genocide too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.41.232.13 (talk) 18:27, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I propose that we insert the following sentence as a lede:

The Uyghur genocide is the ongoing series of human rights abuses perpetrated by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) against the Uyghur people and other ethnic and religious minorities in and around the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region (XUAR). ^[1]

I believe that this is accurate, direct, and in line with WP:Lede (notably MOS:OPEN), though this insertion has been twice reverted by other editors. I am looking to see if there is consensus surrounding this change, and how we should proceed moving forward. Mikehawk10 (talk) 19:01, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This has been discussed extensively above and I don't really see any point in rehashing recent discussions.PailSimon (talk) 01:20, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The lede addressed above was in terms of getting proper sources for the lede that currently exists and debating whether or not to use the term “genocide”. I am proposing a new lede that I believe is more direct than the current one. Mikehawk10 (talk) 04:39, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Right your lede uses the term genocide which is relevant to all the discussions above.PailSimon (talk) 08:53, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: This was discussed in the section First sentence rewrite above (particlarly the comments in December 2020), where using the reference you give (the introduction of a resolution by US senators) to write such a first sentence was pointed out by Drmies as insufficient. This doesn't preclude giving a direct definition of "Uyghur genocide" if it can be cited to other sources (e.g. published academic journal articles or books). — MarkH₂₁^talk 00:31, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. There is NO WAY (sorry to be so emphatic) in which we can accept a judgment by a US Senate committee as somehow unbiased and authoritative enough to allow us to state their conclusion in Wikipedia's voice. They shouldn't even be cited unless ascribed. Drmies (talk) 01:46, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • @PailSimon: I had found 10 non-government sources for the revised lede, and used them when I updated it. If the issue at hand was the U.S. government being the source used to justify the prior lede, why has it been taken down when I inserted 10 independent sources instead? Mikehawk10 (talk) 01:22, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In considering whether the testimony before a U.S. congressional committee is reliable, remember the Nayirah testimony. I think congressional testimony is a primary source, and therefore WP:OR. And one of the requirements of a WP:RS is that they do fact-checking. If the New York Times ran the Nayirah story verbatim from a congressional committee without fact-checking, I think that would still not be a WP:RS. Al Jazeera is reliable for some purposes, but I wouldn't accept their unverified claims about atrocities against Muslims. And I've seen some unverified accusations against the Chinese on ABC News (Australia). I would take Human Rights Watch seriously -- when they do serious fact-checking. But I'd have to read their source documents. --Nbauman (talk) 23:40, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• • • Since the only people calling it a genocide are those who have understood neither the legal definition of genocide nor the dictionary definition, I don't understand why the title of the article uses the word genocide. Testimony of victims can go to proving that crimes against humanity happened, but without evidence that the intention of those crimes was to wipe out the Uighur race, the definition of genocide is not made out. To argue otherwise is just extremism.

--Bacon Man (talk) 08:35, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@My very best wishes: See this discussion among others.PailSimon (talk) 19:41, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I see this section (I did not see it before). So what? The suggestion by Mikehawk10 is very much reasonable. I do not think this phrase is an assertion of anything made in WP voice. This is just a definition of this page subject, which is something different (i.e. how reliable sources define this subject; when I see "Uyghur genocide" in a newspaper, what the authors mean?). As far as we have such subject/page, we must have the definition. This is not really based on views by US Congress or whatever. I would check more, but I do not see clear links to previous discussions. One should realize that the situation with coverage of the Uyghur genocide in sources has changed significantly after previous discussions. My very best wishes (talk) 21:33, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with you, and the lead has now been re-added as there are clearly 5+ editors who are now in favour. — Czello 21:43, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Add agreement.  // Timothy :: talk  21:49, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree with the assertion that this is not a Wikivoice statement. The first sentence of the lede comes across as an unequivocal statement that there is an ongoing genocide in Xinjiang. The title of this article is already bad enough. Above, PailSimon wrote that, The title is less then ideal however the lead of the article makes it clear that these are accusations. The new lede does not make clear that these are accusations - it states, in Wikivoice, that there is a genocide. We obviously have POV problem here. Both the title and the lede should make clear that there are accusations of genocide. The lede should explicitly state who is making those accusations, and should reflect the contested nature of these accusations. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:13, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It does not state in wikivoice that there is a genocide it says "The Uyghur genocide is the ongoing series of human rights abuses perpetrated by the Chinese government against the Uyghur people and other ethnic and religious minorities in and around the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region (XUAR) of the People's Republic of China.” Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:00, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That looks to me like a Wikivoice statement that there is an ongoing genocide, and I'm sure that that's how many (probably most) readers will interpret it. -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:29, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But we don’t and they won’t... Its explicitly *not* "The Uyghur genocide is the genocide perpetrated by the Chinese government against the Uyghur people and other ethnic and religious minorities in and around the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region (XUAR) of the People's Republic of China.” Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:34, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but the article is titled "Uyghur genocide," and it begins with, The Uyghur genocide is .... It's simply not credible to claim that people will not read this as a Wikivoice statement. -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:07, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thats because Uyghur genocide is the WP:COMMONNAME, if you want to change the page’s name we can discuss that but please don’t fib about what we currently say in wikivoice, which is "ongoing series of human rights abuses” not genocide. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:22, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you're being reasonable here. A reader who comes to a page titled, "Uyghur genocide," which begins, "The Uyghur genocide is ..." is very likely to interpret that as a definitive statement by Wikipedia that there is an ongoing genocide against the Uyghurs. You can claim that "Uyghur genocide" is the common name for issues of human rights in Xinjiang (which I find doubtful - "genocide" is just one of the several charges described in the article, and it's a highly contentious and heavily disputed charge at that), but you can't seriously dispute that readers are very likely to interpret the title and opening line as a statement that there is an ongoing genocide. Given your above statements, I take it that you agree with me that this article should not depict the claims of genocide as established fact. If that's the case, then would you support changes to the lede to make it clear that "genocide" is a claim (and to make it clear that the claim is not being stated in Wikivoice), and to attribute that claim? -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:05, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Again it seems like you want to change the name. The reader will interpret that there is an ongoing series of human rights abuses perpetrated by the Chinese government against the Uyghur people and other ethnic and religious minorities in and around the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region (XUAR) of the People's Republic of China which is called the Uyghur genocide. Which is exactly what we intend to convey and is established fact. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:17, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You don't see how a statement that begins with "The Uyghur genocide is" could be reasonably interpreted to mean that there's a genocide against the Uyghurs? Even if you think it can be interpreted otherwise, do you agree with me that that sentence can very reasonably be read to mean that there is a genocide? Finally, do you agree that the lede should not present the claim that there is a genocide as a fact? -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:33, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That would be a reasonable interpretation, which is different from saying something in wikivoice. Again it seems like your issue is with the name of the page and you’re just obfuscating because we already have consensus on that point and consensus went against you. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:43, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Since, as you admit, a reasonable person reading the lede might well interpret it as a definitive statement that there is a genocide against the Uyghurs, we should alter the lede to make it clear that we are not making a definitive statement. It would be unreasonable to insist on a wording that could be reasonably interpreted as a definitive statement. -Thucydides411 (talk) 11:03, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The lead in question is fine and is in line with established consensus that has been recently reaffirmed. In a recent ANI thread, TimothyBlue and Czello both correctly noted that a consensus had been achieved regarding the first sentence in the lead, with Timothy specifically citing comments made by themselves, me, Oranjelo100, and My very best wishes. It also appears that Horse Eye's Back supports the current lead. While consensus can change, I don't think it is a good use of community time to re-litigate this issue twice in the same month, especially considering how emphatically the previous discussion on this topic ended. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 00:19, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The statement (if any) was made by the title of the page (i.e. Uyghur genocide). So, yes, a reasonable person reading the title "might well interpret it as a definitive statement", sure. But now we simply need to explain in the lead what "Uyghur genocide" is. And yes, I think a consensus was reached. If anyone does not like it, please make an RfC to change the title of the page.My very best wishes (talk) 00:53, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mikehawk10, When you say that the lede is fine, do you mean that you do not think it could be interpreted as a Wikivoice statement that there is a Uyghur genocide? I think any reasonable reader is going to view it as a Wikivoice statement that there is a genocide, so unless you're arguing that we should make such a Wikivoice statement, I don't see how you can view the lede as "fine". -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:11, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You’re beating a dead horse, its not a wikivoice statement... End of story. Stop trying to make an end run around consensus, this is becoming disruptive. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:27, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thucydides411 brings up a reasonable point though. There are others wordings that could improve the presentation and tone of the first sentence, e.g. something along the lines of (underlined differences with the current version):

The Uyghur genocide is the designation of an ongoing series of human rights abuses as a genocide perpetrated by the Chinese government against the Uyghur people and other ethnic and religious minorities in and around the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region (XUAR) of the People's Republic of China.

Other alternatives could include who is using the designation (perhaps too wordy?), refer to the Genocide Convention, or use other terms. A discussion about how to refine the first sentence is at least worth having. — MarkH₂₁^talk 23:21, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I read the trump administration's statement, and it does not appear to use the English word "genocide", but its adjective "genocidal". One can of course feel "suicidal" without committing "suicide". The "free" western media then printed "genocide" in the news and sowing frenzy in their readers. Of course trump's out of office and cannot now be held to account, but if ever the now defunct administration were asked to explain, all they have to say is "go and read our statement carefully. At no time did we say the Chinese carried out genocide, we simply stated that we feel their policy was genocidal." 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:158A:6346:3A72:62C8 (talk) 00:06, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I feel this is splitting some extremely fine hairs. Calling a policy "genocidal" and saying the government responsible for the policy committed "genocide" are the same thing, there is no difference between them, and if the Trump administration ever tried to backtrack like that they would be laughed out of the room. Loki (talk) 01:10, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@liar. Do u think trump is scared of being laughed out of the room? We are talking about an american president, and american presidents are well known for taking liberties with the truth, especially trump. Go back to Bill Clinton's "I did not have sexual relations with that woman Miss Lewinski". Then he went on to claim that he did not lie, as (the truth of) what he said depend on whether it was in the plural or singular, what grammatical tenses were used, and what you mean by sexual relations. You can of course throw the Statute of Interpretation at him, as you could at trump. But back to what genocide actually is: It is the mass killing of a people. Genocide of the Uyghur people by the Chinese government is simply untrue, and clearly there is absolutely no evidence for it. The accusation is pure malice. 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:158A:6346:3A72:62C8 (talk) 03:43, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The accusation is not "pure malice", since it's not unfounded. There are legitimate indicators that the Chinese government is pursuing a policy of sinicization in the region, which, according to most definitions of the term (see the numerous discussions above), constitutes cultural, or even "proper" genocide. TucanHolmes (talk) 17:57, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@tucan. So the WASP americans have committed cultural genocide on all other americans. Why is that Black Americans are not speaking the African languages of their ancestors? How many Native Americans have the White Man slaughtered, yes killed ie "-cided"? The White Man did the same to the Aboriginals of Australia. As for the present Uyghur, why are they muslims? Because they were forced into the religion. Their ancestors were not muslims. Therefore the culture of their ancestors was not destroyed by the Chinese. Was the present uyghur language the language of their ancestors? No, the present uyghurs adopted the language of another people. Populations change languages, religions and ways of life throughout history. African-Americans now have no knowledge of the languages of their ancestors. Why didn't trump's administration call that cultural genocide, and that american policies have always been genocidal? The Chinese have not committed genocide against the Uyghurs. trump's administration even want to make the Uyghurs jobless. trump's statement is purely malicious to take the media off his own wrong doings and failure in the election. There is no genocide committed on the Uyghurs by the Chinese, nor are the Chinese policies genocidal. The Uyghurs' way of life as with all peoples around the world changed, and will continue to change, over time. Any accusations are trump's lies over and over again. 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:6D79:B0AA:9972:4E95 (talk) 18:37, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any sources which support your argument? If you are more interested in understanding your own whataboutism argument might I suggest this piece, “Responding to Chinese ‘Whataboutism’: On Uyghur and Native Genocides,”[13] in The Diplomat? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:29, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@horse. Do you have any sources? Why don't you read trump's admin's statement for yourself? We are in the internet age, and everything is on the web. Just look it up for yourself. 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:353D:ED01:EF0F:15B3 (talk) 20:30, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources for what? I haven’t made an argument here, I’m asking for clarification of what you said and supporting sources. Did you read the article I linked BTW? I thought you would find it immensely helpful. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:36, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Commment: The OP is clearly playing word games, pushing a POV. Their reply to Tucan is over the top and should be addressed and this closed.  // Timothy :: talk  17:22, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@horse. By adding your comments here, you are making an argument. You propagate your views without evidence on these pages and on other articles to slander China and the Chinese people. What is stated here is well known knowledge, and perhaps your ignorance of these facts means you are very poorly educated, and have to rely on lies. Please show us some real evidence of genocide. I don't need to cite any sources because there is no genocide to cite. Of course it does not stop liars from saying that there is genocide, and then others cite the liars to spread the lies. As for "cultural" genocide, perhaps Donald Trump himself can claim that the Trumps and he himself are victims of American cultural genocide, because the Trumps are German, who now cannot speak or understand the German language. 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:8503:5059:49CB:D161 (talk) 01:37, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article uses Radio Free Asia as a source which seems quite problematic to me given that it is a primarily US government funded org that was set up by the CIA. We certainly would not use RT or Global Times or any other government propaganda agency so why are we using what is essentially the Western version of Russia Today?PailSimon (talk) 17:16, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think more broadly a thread should be started about Radio Free Asia at WP:RSN. I suspect it's used as a source in more articles than just this one, so it'd be good for a definitive decision to be made there and then it be added to WP:RSP. Just noticed that there is a thread about RFA at that noticeboard. Let's wait for that discussion to conclude and then take a call on this article accordingly. — Czello 17:22, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just to provide some final context, the results of the RfC at the noticeboard can be found here: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 333#RfC: Radio Free Asia (RFA). A short entry summarizing them is available at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. Excerpt:

TucanHolmes (talk) 11:44, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is certainly a "geopolitically-charged area", meaning that RFA's claims need in-line attribution, with an explanation that RFA is US government media. One of the reasons given in the RfC for exercising caution with regard to RFA was that RFA has pushed disinformation about the CoVID-19 epidemic in China (specifically, it has pushed conspiracy theories about the death toll being orders of magnitude larger than what scientific studies find). -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:05, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that is what the article has been doing. Beginning in the subsection on Mosques, we note that Radio Free Asia, a United States government-funded, nonprofit international broadcasting corporation, reported that in 2018, a plaque containing Quranic scriptures, that had long hung outside the front entrance of the mosque, had been removed by the authorities to "eliminate Uyghur faith, literary works, and language". Following this, we should be attributing content solely sourced to RFA as "Radio Free Asia reported" or something along the lines of "a report from Radio Free Asia said". This is in line with how the deprecated(!) Global Times is used (such as in Hurting the feelings of the Chinese people, where it is introduced as CCP-affiliated media and attributed thereafter). — Mikehawk10 (talk) 20:11, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think "reported" is really the right word here: "say" would be more neutral. An additional factor to consider is whether we're giving too much weight to US government media. RFA is very heavily used in this article, as it stands. I count 20 references to RFA (only 9 of which have in-line attribution). -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:18, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Reported is fine", and RFN is reliable, unlike CCP's media. Oranjelo100 (talk) 22:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Amigao removed the following sentence from the lead: "The United States is the only country to have declared the human rights abuses a genocide, a decision made January 19, 2021, by then President Donald Trump despite reservations by the U.S. State Department." Their explanation was "positions of particular countries are already listed below and do not belong in the 3rd paragraph."[14] However they did not move the information elsewhere.

It is relevant to the paragraph it was in, which begins, "International reactions have been mixed, with 54 United Nations (UN) member states supporting China's policies in Xinjiang." The fact that one nation (and only one) classifies it as genocide summarizes international reactions.

TFD (talk) 23:34, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good work. The lead section is incredibly lopsided, though it has improved with your edit. The text regarding the State Department viewpoints were recently pushed down to the classification subsection on the basis of "WP:UNDUE", which was ironically against the point. I'm sure classifications made by them are more "due weight" than the "East Turkistan Government-in-Exile". RachetPasse (talk) 23:52, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

None of the sources point to Trump himself as having made the decision. Most RS are reporting that the decision was made by the then-U.S. Secy. of State Mike Pompeo, and I can't find sources that point to it coming directly from the top. And, while we could include information on each country's internal deliberative process in the article, I don't think that information is due in the lead, which is supposed to serve as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important contents per MOS:LEAD. I don't think that the internal deliberative processes in the United States regarding its decision to classify meet that threshold. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 17:35, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The statement is an over-simplification given recent events (see: 1). Also, there is a more nuanced treatment of the United States' position in the subsequent section listing out various countries' positions so there is no reason to state only a single country's views in the lead. That would make the lead a bit too US-centric. - Amigao (talk) 01:37, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Did you forget the vital part which stated it was a non-binding motion, brought forward by opposition Conservatives or are you being deliberate? RachetPasse (talk) 04:26, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Calling the human rights violations a genocide when the U.S. is the only country to have made that call is U.S. centric. It is not U.S. centric to point out that no other country has made that call. The Guardian article is an oversimplification. Canada's lower house of parliament, the House of Commons, adopted a resolution, which belongs in the article. But none of the cabinet members voted and the prime minister has said that he will make a decision later. [Note: A resolution is, "A motion adopted by the House in order to make a declaration of opinion or purpose. A resolution does not have the effect of requiring that any action be taken." - House of Commons][15] TFD (talk) 06:05, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If a resolution is a motion adopted for the purposes of declaring an opinion, then I think it's reasonable to say that Canada's House of Commons have declared the ongoing events in Xinjiang to constitute a genocide. Stating that opinion and affirming it formally in a resolution seems to be in line with reporting from The Guardian, Al-Jazeera, Reuters, Axios, other reliable sources who have stated that Canada has deemed the events to be a genocide. Since we are relying on the reporting of WP:RS to write this article, I think that it's reasonable to include Canada. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 17:31, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As I wrote in the comment you are replying to, "Canada's lower house of parliament, the House of Commons, adopted a resolution, which belongs in the article." However the House of Commons is not Canada. While it is part of the legislative branch, it is the executive which determines Canada's foreign policy. That's actually similar to the U.S., where the President not the House of Representatives, determines foreign policy. Note that Canadian news sources do not say that Canada made this decision. The CBC News headline for example is "MPs vote to label China's persecution of Uighurs a genocide." It says, "Foreign Affairs Minister Marc Garneau was the only cabinet minister present. When it was his turn, he said he abstained "on behalf of the Government of Canada."" So Canada has no official position on whether it is a genocide.

Note too that in order for House of Commons resolutions to be binding, similar to the U.S., they must be approved by the Senate and the head of state or their representative, at which point they become laws.

TFD (talk) 20:30, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with TFD, besides noting that the resolution passed the most we can say that the Conservatives, New Democrats, Bloc Québécois and Greens (that is all but one major party) are calling for sanctions over the matter [16]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:43, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The United States don't particularly like Muslims or the Chinese, including its own citizens of Chinese ethnicity and its own Muslims, nor are they particularly concerned with their rights, but they are now claiming that somehow they like and are concerned for Chinese Muslims. Sounds like the US is very disingenuous and hypocritical. 86.173.159.198 (talk) 11:16, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Should there be some mention of US hybrid warfare efforts? Colonel Lawrence Wilkinson highlights the geopolitical strategy here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBthA9OHpFo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.239.103.221 (talk) 09:58, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would imagine not in this article, unless we can find RS that somehow tie this sort of thing to the ongoing Uyghur genocide. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 14:48, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is "Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity" considered RS? There is also Sibel Edmonds for "Newsbud" who collaborate the hybrid warfare efforts (testimony here) but I don't know how to check if something is considered RS on wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.239.103.221 (talk) 15:54, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Given the fact that calls for a UN Human Rights investigation are discussed in the lede, I believe it is notable that China has invited the UN to visit and worth mentioning in the lede. I appreciate other opinions. Dhawk790 (talk) 17:31, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not due, its also highly unlikely to be genuine. The comment was “The door to Xinjiang is always open. People from many countries who have visited Xinjiang have learned the facts and the truth on the ground. China also welcomes the High Commissioner for Human Rights to visit Xinjiang,”[17] which as all WP:RS has noted is not true, Xinjiang is one of the hardest places in the world to get information about and visit in a free capacity. For example Al-jazeera whose reporting on the invitation I just linked was literally kicked out of China for reporting on Xinjiang. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:40, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It might be true that the invitation is not genuine, but the sources do not indicate that. The WHO just completed an investigation in Wuhan and a lot of the scientists have indicated the the government was fairly open. If we are going to report on calls for an investigation in the lede, I really think it is worth considering reporting on the response from the government. Dhawk790 (talk) 17:48, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That would seem to be a WP:FALSEBALANCE, we have no indication its due for the lead. It also literally just happened, see WP:RECENTISM. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the Foreign Minister also said “basic facts show that there has never been so-called genocide, forced labour or religious oppression in Xinjiang” which is just as ridiculous. Chinese government sources have zero reliability here and I’m not seeing them being treated as reliable by WP:RS. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:55, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@horse. Can you give us proof that Chinese government sources have zero reliability to back up your claim? From the trump government sources over the past 4 years, it would appear that it is us government sources that have zero reliability. 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:2CF1:B601:F525:4AEC (talk) 01:28, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it is necessarily false balance. If an article reported, "X asked Y to do Z" the logical question is to then answer "what did Y do?" I think it may be worth indicating that a UN investigation has not been launched, but China has indicated an openness for such an investigation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dhawk790 (talk • contribs) 17:57, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We have no sources claiming that China has indicated an openness for such an investigation, they appear to say the opposite. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:58, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think "China also welcomes the High Commissioner for Human Rights to visit Xinjiang" indicates openness. How would you characterize? Dhawk790 (talk) 17:59, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We can’t characterize, the quote isn't from a WP:RS its from a Chinese government official. If a WP:RS said "China also welcomes the High Commissioner for Human Rights to visit Xinjiang” then it would be a different story. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:03, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the source was about who was reporting, not who was saying it. So in this case a reliable source is reporting on the words of a government official, there are other examples of this in the article. So for example, the Zenz report uses Chinese government statistics, it is Zenz who is reporting it, but the information comes from the Chinese government, I don't think it would be fair to consider Zenz as unreliable because of that. Dhawk790 (talk) 18:06, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We could say Official X said “China also welcomes the High Commissioner for Human Rights to visit Xinjiang” but we could not turn that quote into a factual statement or attribute the opinion to AJ. But again, it still wouldn't be due for the lead. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:14, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. If the call for investigation is due, why isn't the response? Dhawk790 (talk) 18:16, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Because we have significantly more coverage of one vs the other, due weight is based on coverage. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:42, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's helpful. I think your point about it being a recent development is important. It may be worth re-considering after some time has passed and potentially more coverage emerges. Dhawk790 (talk) 18:47, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As of now, we don't know if there is really is a mass murder. That's why the title should be renamed. Cultural genocide refers to the destruction of an ethnicity, which is what is happening there. Tarekelijas (talk) 09:27, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This has been the subject of debate before, see here. Ultimately many of the sources we use label this as a genocide, and now we're even seeing political institutions do so too. — Czello 11:09, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mass murder is not a necessary component of genocide, I would also note that cultural genocide is a type of genocide... The overriding descriptor would still be Uyghur genocide. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:40, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. Mass murder is not the only component of genocide. In the course of events to say if a mass murder is genocide, destruction of culture is one thing scholars look for, along with typical features like the murder of children and laws against miscegenation, as well as whether the government is one that formally enforces ethnic distinction (yellow stars, etc). Scholars are still debating what Lemkin meant by "cultural genocide". Rather than discrete "types of genocide", for those interested there is a great explanation of the current details in The Oxford Handbook of Legal History [18].

Oranjelo's point about fertility has been covered by the Associated Press in detail [19] and falls under genocide. According to the article experts are using the term "demographic genocide". [20] Gators bayou (talk) 11:44, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We do know that there is a campaign to cripple Uyghur fertility+targeted rapes. This falls under genocide. Oranjelo100 (talk) 20:42, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not 100% on the rapes being “targeted” at Uyghurs per se, though there is certainly information out there indicating that the policies instituted by the government are leading to a systemic problem of Uyghurs being raped. I know it’s a fine line, but I am not sure that the government is actually instructing people to rape Uyghurs, even if it might be creating policies (such as the forcible quartering of Han Chinese men in the homes of Uyghur women and the defense of co-sleeping) that may be causing the widespread nature of cross-ethnic rapes in Xinjiang. I think the question of genocidal rape in Xinjiang might bridge into a debate akin to the Holocaust’s functionalism–intentionalism debate as time goes on (albeit with a meaningfully different factual basis). There is, however, clearly an intentional and ongoing campaign to sterilize Uyghurs against their will, and per our last move discussion we chose to move the page to its current spot as this sort of behavior had come increasingly to light. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 20:39, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is starting a war against China: if the Western countries call it genocide they are formally bound to start a war against China. Of course, it will be vetoed in the UN Security Council, but it still remains a very difficult political matter. It's like Let's declare war to China and hope that it gets canceled in the last moment before its start. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:15, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"if the Western countries call it genocide they are formally bound to start a war against China” thats not even a little bit true. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:12, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No? There is a treaty against genocides: if you declare there is a genocide going on you have to send the troops to stop it. As simple as that. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:24, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above about "having" to send troops is unsourced and the claim is simply not credible.  // Timothy :: talk  20:00, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to have made up that part of the Genocide Convention. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:08, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[21]. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:16, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read that source before posting? It says the issue was potential "moral pressure” as a result of the designation which could lead to public expectations/pressure to use military force not a legal or treaty obligation to use force. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:31, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• No, this is not just cultural, but pretty much physical. See this with the actual report here ("The Uyghur Genocide: An Examination of China’s Breaches of the 1948 Genocide Convention"). My very best wishes (talk) 18:34, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Sources (more every day) show this is clearly not just cultural genocide, but cultural and physical.  // Timothy :: talk  20:00, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

US state department lawyers would contradict that term of genocide as there's insufficient evidence to claim that. https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/

So far, the biggest and most cited expert seems to be Adrian zenz and his report is questionable https://sizeof.cat/post/adrian-zenz-jamestown-foundation-manipulate-free-press/

Claiming genocide without actual hard full evidence is akin to propaganda like on Libya war https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20181025-how-the-world-was-misled-into-the-libyan-war/amp/. I recall BBC promoting targeted viagra rape by Libyan soldiers based on just a single verbal account at face value. That was later debunked as false propaganda after the war was finished. It was presented as real despite it was just an allegation promoted as facts. Nowadays we also have targeted rape accounts in China based also on verbal accounts.

That's not proven to be facts but just allegations. Since when does wikipedia claim something as facts when it is still allegations based on insufficient evidence and even the US department lawyers had acknowledged lack of evidence?49.180.226.13 (talk) 07:03, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• No, this is not Pompeo and not just Zenz. For example, here is very serious report by an independent organization (mentioned here and in other publications), and it say this is just a genocide per Geneva convention, affirmative. This is different even from something they did with Tibet or with other ethnic minorities [22]. My very best wishes (talk) 18:46, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair to the IP, Zenz is listed in the report as an individual that either was a co-contributor or someone who the report consulted. He's also only one of 33 individuals listed in the report in that capacity. Those 33 individuals include a former Dean of Harvard Law School, the current UNESCO chair on Genocide Education at the University of Southern California, the founding president of Genocide Watch, the director of International Bar Association's Human Rights Institute, and many more reputable academics and lawyers. I don't think that the criticism of the report provided by the IP is sound (especially given that their argument against Zenz's reliability and/or due-ness seems to be based off of a self-published blog), but I do want to point this out for posterity's sake. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 20:56, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree 'cultural genocide' is a better term to use here. If it is just called 'Uighur genocide' it tends to lead people to equate it with the mass murder of Jewish people in World War II or the 1994 Rwanda genocide, but the Chinese gov't isn't being accused of trying to exterminate by mass murder, rather it is being accused of using intense persecution in order to stop the Uighurs from following their culture any longer and making them assimilate into becoming like Han Chinese, which isn't really the same thing as a systematic campaign of mass murder. Yes, it may meet the UN definition of 'genocide', but we also need to consider what the popular understanding and connotations that people carry with the word 'genocide' as well.Reesorville (talk) 00:11, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If there is cultural genocide, then many countries, including the USA, Canada and Australia, of world will be guilty. White america has completely wiped out the African culture of the Black African-Americans. None of the descendants of the African slaves can speak an African language, unlike the Uyghurs in China whose modern Uyghur language has always flourished. Mind you, Donald Trump himself may claim he and his family are victims of cultural genocide in america too, as the Trumps are Germans and are now unable to speak or understand German. Biden himself can also claim to be a victim of cultural genocide, as he has stated he is Irish, and yet the Irish Biden cannot speak or understand the Celtic language, and can only understand the English language of his colonial masters. And by definition, have not the religions of Christianity and Islam completely wiped out the cultures of civilisations that pre-dated them, and thereby the worst culprits of cultural genocide? Maybe you people should demand to put the vatican on trial for cultural genocide. 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:2CF1:B601:F525:4AEC (talk) 16:43, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have read the debate about whether to call this a genocide, and I don't intend to re-open that can of worms. Consensus at the moment stands that this is a genocide.

However, it is worth noting that for most people, genocide brings to mind images of mass killings, as in the Armenian, Rwandan, or anti-Jewish genocides of the past. The definition of genocide used here (prevention of births, sterilization, mass internment, cultural suppression) is much less familiar to the vast majority of readers.

The current lead skirts around this, but importantly, does not clarify two things: 1) According to reliable sources, *this* genocide does not include mass killings 2) Nevertheless, the actions of the Chinese government are considered genocide. It describes those actions, but does not make a link to a definition of genocide that helps explain to the reader why this is genocide even though there are no mass killings. We should add a sentence that makes this clear. Ganesha811 (talk) 15:35, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Its the same definition of genocide... Mass killing has never been a necessary part of the definition. If people are uninformed about what the term “genocide” means thats not really our problem is it? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If that's the case, then the usa is the biggest practitioner of genocide. 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:A992:ED36:EF8E:93EF (talk) 02:06, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Horse Eye's Back, I think as an encyclopedia it's our job to inform people in a way that avoids confusion. Genocide is an extremely important term and making sure readers understand the way it's being used in an article called 'Uyghur genocide' seems worthwhile. Ganesha811 (talk) 21:21, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If readers don’t know what this “extremely important” term means then I expect them to click on the linked genocide right in the beginning of the lead. If our readers are misinformed and don’t wish to alleviate their ignorance there isn’t really much we can do there. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:29, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that at that least 25,000 Uyghurs being killed by government for organs every year counts as mass killings, and there are reports of other killings unrelated to organs, with crematoria built to dispose victims. Newlines Institute for Strategy and Policy report says that CCP breached all articles in genocide convention, including killing members of the group. Oranjelo100 (talk) 02:33, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Another source supporting mass murder organ harvesting. Oranjelo100 (talk) 09:14, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[23]

@oranje. What do you mean by you think? We are not here for what you think or what I think. Where is the evidence? The article you quote are made by Falum Gong. You are in the wrong article. 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:4115:A10A:A8EB:B894 (talk) 07:16, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do you genuinely think uyghur body parts are generally transplant compatible for the majority Han Chinese? They might be compatible for other uyghurs, but the compatibility with the Han peoples must be very, very low, and practically useless as a source. 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:A992:ED36:EF8E:93EF (talk) 01:57, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:A992:ED36:EF8E:93EF: Organ harvesting in Xinjiang has been going on for many years and evidence continues to be published about this (in sources that include peer-reviewed academic journals). I don't understand where your denial is coming from here. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 06:50, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@mike. Just checked your references and not a single one of them say 25,000 uyghurs are being killed every year for organs. The articles and claims (some of which are dubious) are for organ transplants in China. So where's your evidence that 25000 uyghurs a year are killed for organs? Even in the UK now, organ donation is from presumed consent. That is to say, in a civilised country such as the UK, unless you explicitly not consent before you die, your organs could be removed from you on death for transplantation. There are likely to be more than 25,000 deaths a year in the whole of China from traffic accidents alone. 07:10, 12 April 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:4115:A10A:A8EB:B894 (talk)

The (peer-reviewed!) source from BMC Medical Ethics stated that the evidence examined by the authors can only be plausibly explained by systematic falsification and manipulation of official organ transplant datasets in China. Some apparently nonvoluntary donors also appear to be misclassified as voluntary. The source also notes that In late 2005, Chinese officials first publicly admitted to the use of organs from executed prisoners. Human rights organizations, independent researchers, and legislative bodies have subsequently presented evidence alleging that detained practitioners of Falun Gong, Uyghurs, and other prisoners of conscience have been used on a wide scale as an organ source. In its conclusion, the source states that rather than the solely prisoner-based organ transplant system of years past, or the untarnished voluntary system promised by officials, the available evidence indicates in our view that China has a complex hybrid transplant program: voluntary donations, incentivized by large cash payments, are apparently used alongside nonvoluntary donors who are marked down as citizen donors. The source also notes a mysterious jump of 25K organs in the system transplanted on a particular day. That is to say, the organ donation program isn't as voluntary as officials portray it as.

I responded to your question providing you with several sources documenting Chinese organ harvesting (including harvesting of Uyghur organs). If you read the articles, there is plenty of evidence for the historical practice of organ harvesting (both among prisoners of conscience and death row inmates). If you are wondering for the source on the 25,000 number, the sourcing I have found is Haaretz citing Ethan Gutmann, who the source describes as a world expert on the issue. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 08:20, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Mikehawk10: While Gutmann is the most prolific investigative journalist looking at organ harvesting, I think some caution is needed with his numbers (beyond the contextual knowledge that he works for an anti-communist organisation, as noted below). The article is currently appropriately careful and attributes the reports to Gutmann. Only one of the journal articles you've provided explicitly describes organ harvesting in Xinjiang. It's Ethan Gutmann in World Affairs (pp. 51–52) from 2012 (before the 2014 ramping up of repression), and he describes it as part of China's response to Uyghur protests in the 1990s and a wider pan-China policy of killing prisoners. He suggests the Uyghurs were treated particularly awfully in the 1990s with regards to organ harvesting – he says prisoners not on death row may have been killed, citing an interview with a "young doctor" who described being "ordered to begin blood-testing prisoners in the political wing of an Urumqi prison ... in search of viable organs" – although Gutmann says "then the trail goes cold [for several years]"; he goes on to to "reconstruct the next decade of organ harvesting" only discussing Falun Gong and in the article we attribute him as saying that organ harvesting in Xinjiang had fallen by 1999. Gutmann has since made a connection between the mass interment of Uyghurs and organ harvesting, but I'm not sure he's done so in a peer-reviewed paper? The rest of your sources above say the following (generally attributing reports to Gutmann or others):

• Journal of Medical Ethics (2020): "The procurement situation is further complicated by the fact that Chinese authorities insist that when prisoners do donate organs they do so voluntarily and without coercion. The fact is that some minorities are treated as prisoners solely due to their ethnicity or religion or both. For example, an August 2018 United Nations human rights panel stated that it had received many credible reports that one million ethnic Uyghurs in China are being held in ‘re-education camps’." (p. 687)
• Harvard International Review (2017): "Suspicions first arose in 2006 that state-run Chinese hospitals were killing prisoners of conscience to sell their organs. Targeted groups were alleged to include religious and ethnic minorities, such as Uighurs, Tibetans, underground Christians and practitioners of the banned Falun Gong spiritual movement" (p. 17)
• BMC Medical Ethics (2019): "Human rights organizations, independent researchers, and legislative bodies have subsequently presented evidence alleging that detained practitioners of Falun Gong, Uyghurs, and other prisoners of conscience have been used on a wide scale as an organ source" (p.3, various cites, predominantly Gutmann or relating to Falun Gong)
• American Journal of Transplantation (2014): "While Falun Gong practitioners remain the largest persecuted group,there is evidence of similar fates for other minority groups in China such as Uighur Muslims, Tibetans and Christians (29)" (p. 2248, citing Gutmann)
• Journal of Democracy (2013): "To mention one dramatic example highlighted by China analyst Ethan Gutmann: Highly unethical practices occasioned by the shortage of transplantable organs—including what appears to be organ-harvesting from the bodies of live prisoners—are now a nationwide scourge (and, some say, a shoe waiting to drop in the Bo Xilai scandal). These practices were first tested on condemned prisoners in Xinjiang." (p.77) Jr8825 • Talk 14:59, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Oranjelo100: sorry I meant to ping you also. Jr8825 • Talk 15:03, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

While the repetition of Gutmann's research in multiple journals indicates that academics take it seriously, there is a notable lack of other sources independently connecting organ harvesting with Xinjiang since 2014. It's of course made difficult by the fact that the CCP has been trying its hardest to keep things hidden, but I would hope (and expect) that more sources will appear over time regarding this. WP:VNT. Jr8825 • Talk 15:18, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jr8825: Another source (or really set of sources) I had not listed above is the China Tribunal (and the coverage) thereof. The Tribunal itself had stated that Uyghurs were at risk of organ harvesting, an item that was widely reported (I can provide sources later today, but I am currently in a bit of a hurry). Generally, it had been covered as "Uyghurs are at risk" between 2015 and 2020, though a WP:GREL reporting in 2020 on the findings of an expert source whose investigative work has been published in multiple academic journals (and widely cited, at that) would justify due weight for inclusion in the article with attribution. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 16:30, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To add on to my prior point, there has been reporting from a WP:GREL that Gutmann had brought up concerns about the Uyghurs as early as 2013, when he was investigating Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China. China later announced that that it would stop organ harvesting in 2015, though even the BBC report covering the announcement notes that [China] has said for many years that it will end the controversial practice. It previously promised to do so by November last year. It's pretty clear that the announcement has been generally met with skepticism, and research has been done towards that end (including by Gutmann, but the doubt of China's ceasing of organ harvesting seems to be pretty common).— Mikehawk10 (talk) 23:05, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The medical journals you linked treat it very much as an ongoing problem and didn't suggest there were any signs of China changing direction. I guess the question is more about whether China has increased organ harvesting in Xinjiang as part of its genocidal/ethnocidal policy there, and how strong the evidence is for this. Jr8825 • Talk 23:58, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jr8825 and Oranjelo100:In addition to the above, I've looked and tried to find some sources regarding the organ harvesting claims more generally. There have been some peer-reviewed academic sources that have referred to China's treatment of Falun Gong via organ harvesting as genocide, though the scope of the article was mostly limited to the impact of organ harvesting on Falun Gong (Uyghurs were noted to have composed ~11% of all organs harvested, but the article did not make a genocide analysis with respect to the Uyghurs). There is a law review article that is pretty straightforward about this being a genocide (it writes The Xi administration’s (and by extension the Communist Party’s) agenda for Xinjiang seeks to accomplish the same basic goal of removing dissidents and potential dissidents belonging to an ethnic group without the international condemnation and internal strife involved in forced migration and genocide. ...In Xinjiang this effort has three key components. The first is a vast surveillance network which combines a large and extremely active police presence with cutting edge technology designed to monitor the populace at all times. The second is the da fa, meaning “strike hard,”campaign which arrests dissidents and anyone with even a remote connection to dissident activity. The third is the internment camps themselves which forcibly re-educate those arrested.). That article seems to work organ harvesting in at the very end by citing a Wall Street Journal opinion piece and framing it as new, horrific allegations, though it makes its analysis with respect to genocide independent of the organ harvesting as a whole. Another source writes about organ harvesting of Uyghurs, saying that Uighur prisoners serve a growing demand, as their organs are classified as halal, which points to a motive of harvesting organs for the sake of obtaining halal organs. In short, there's a lot of mention of the organ harvesting, and there is some mention of the harvesting in those articles that describe the situation as a genocide, but most of the sources that describe the situation as a genocide don't seem to rely on the organ harvesting in making that determination.

In terms of additional news pieces, the National Catholic Register writes that organ harvesting and human trafficking are other atrocities regularly committed against Uyghurs and other people designated enemies of the state. Fox News reports that human rights activists and international leaders are collecting evidence that the beleaguered Uighur Muslim community in Xinjiang province, also known as East Turkistan, could be the latest in a long line of state-sanctioned "victims" being killed for their hearts, lungs, liver, kidneys and other vital body parts – sometimes extracted from their bodies while still alive. Public Radio International appears to put the organ harvesting on the same level as the forced sterilization, writing that After more than 70 years of Chinese rule over the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region, there’s mounting evidence that in recent years, their occupation has intensified into an environment of strict surveillance, with more than a million Uighurs held in internment camps. Reports show many are forced to pick cotton and work in factories that supply international brands and that some Uighurs are even subjected to forced sterilizations and organ harvesting. Nepali news site Khabarhub reported that a recent report documented how the religious minority has been subject to massacres, mass internment camps, torture, organ harvesting, and disappearances in addition to forced birth control and sterilization. News.com.au has reported that healthy prisoners are euthanised so their internal organs can be removed and sold on a lucrative multibillion-dollar black market in a story that was republished by The Queensland times.

My apologies if this is a wall of sources without much of an explanation for each individual source, though I wanted to respond and also note some of the sources I have seen that I had not brought up before. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 04:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to dissect every single one of these sources, but the "Year of the Bat" source from the King's College is hardly a reliable one. The entire paper is a politically driven and speculative piece of geopolitical opinion rather than any semblance of research. The "halal organ" claim is bizarre borderine geopolitical poetry on par with the several literary quotes sprinkled in the source along with flirtations of the idea of the virus being a bioengineered weapon to destroy the west. Deku link (talk) 06:40, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The piece states that Conspiracy theorists, not content with the possibility of an accidental leak of the virus, argue that Covid-19 was an experimental biological weapon and that the veracity of such claims may be highly questionable. I don't think that's favorable coverage of the people who think it's an engineered bioweapon (though you are certainly justified in worrying that it strongly entertains a lab leak theory, which per a recent RfC got a no consensus on if it is a WP:FRINGE theory/conspiracy theory). It's certainly not a WP:MEDRS, and I would not use it to make medical claims, but I don't think it's completely out-of-line on the claim regarding Halal organs. Other sources, such as Taiwan News, Radio Free Asia, and the Sydney Morning Herald have reported on allegations of the sort before. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 07:25, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@mike. Can't you supply a better source? How can you spin 25000 transplants into the killing of 25000 uyghurs by the Chinese government? I hope you realise when you die, say in the UK, and they take your body for organ donation, they can without your consent take all your organs, eg heart, 2 kidneys, 2 lungs, liver, 2 corneas, maybe even your face, 4 limbs, etc for transplant. Therefore 1 dead body can give multiple organ transplants. 25000 transplants come from far fewer than 25000 dead people. You also spin the rumours into 25000 people must be 25000 people from Xinjiang, and because it is Xinjiang, then they must all be uyghurs, and these uyghurs must be uyghur prisoners, and all uyghur prisoners must be political prisoners. Do you think there are no Han Chinese prisoners in Xinjiang, and that uyghurs do not do crimes? None of the sources you quote claim that all the organs for the transplantation came from the one province in China called Xinjiang, let alone that they came from uyghurs. Tell me when you take organs for transplantation, can you just transplant them into anyone? Of course not, the recipients have to be compatible with the donors. I would say the chance of a match between a uyghur Chinese and a Han Chinese is a lot lower than a match between their respective peoples. Most of the organ from uyghurs would probably be transplanted into other uyghurs, and if they go to foreigners, as some of your sources claim, the most likely recipients are turkish people. You also spin the story into something like a horror movie, that uyghurs are killed to order for their organs, which is total nonsense. In China, there is the death sentence, but it is only carried out for very severe crimes. Even so, the Chinese system is however still a lot fairer than the system in america, as you can see people such as George Floyd was killed by government agents without the chance of a trial or prison. There is not just the one George Floyd, think of all the other Black people who are killed that way, no trial and no chance of prison. Those in China who are executed probably deserve to be executed in the eyes of their local people. In america Black people are lynched for committing no crimes at all. If you are really concerned about organ harvesting, then you should be more concerned about not letting things as in the following reference happen to people in your country https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9419141/Teenager-18-declared-brain-dead-hit-van-wakes-up.html , where in the UK they can declare you dead when you are not, so that they can harvest your organs. 81.141.207.254 (talk) 15:04, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

WP:DAILYMAIL. Jr8825 • Talk 15:08, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gutmann's estimates should definitely stay, and there are other sources who state that killings are happening like the Newline report. Oranjelo100 (talk) 20:35, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[24] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oranjelo100 (talk • contribs) 03:53, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

After thinking about this a bit more and reading through sources in responses to questions from Jr8825, I'm actually not sure that we should report that there are in fact no mass killings of Uyghurs; I don't think that is what reliable sources are stating in their more recent coverage. Enough reliable sources are reporting on the organ harvesting stuff (see my comments above) that us trying to write the article in a way that mass killings do not in fact happen actually seem to not be supported by RS. If forcible organ harvesting—the killing of live Uyghurs for their organs—is going on in Xinjiang as these RS report, then we should report the organ harvesting on the page with details from sources. I'm also not able to find reliable sources that deny the organ harvesting outright, though if they exist then I would ask an editor to provide them since it would help provide balance in the article. Additionally, I'd like to raise the point that there have also been widely reported allegations of infanticide of Uyghurs in Xinjiang. The specific allegations are that Chinese doctors have been ordered by officials to kill Uyghur infants, which would reasonably constitute mass killing of infants if true (though obviously the comments should be attributed to the alleging party when we write in wikivoice, owing to the way that the allegations are being covered in the sources). — Mikehawk10 (talk) 05:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike and @oranje, can we be sure that you are not part of the CIA propaganda machinery? Below are just a few of the stories from Chinese sources which are more reliable than your sources.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202104/1220951.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202104/1220968.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202104/1220777.shtml Your sources: catholicnewsagency. From an organisation that has hidden its abuse and sexual abuse of children (both boys and girls), which is only now just coming out. Foxnews: Not even Trump will use them. Newindianexpress: Do we need to say anything more about them when it comes to their bias reporting on China? They need to concentrate on reporting Indian men raping and murdering children and Dalits. Come on @Mike, tell us the truth who you really are. 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:C473:224F:15AA:3891 (talk) 20:07, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that in a series of two edits (1 2), it appears that Oranjelo100 has added the term "mass murder" to the opening infobox. From my reading, (and correct me if I am wrong), it looks like this was added as a result of information contained in a report from Haaretz that stated that "[a] number of international researchers and human rights activists say the oppression of minorities in Xinjiang has only grown worse, and that some prisoners are being murdered and their organs harvested." I've noticed that the Newlines report includes the statement that, "[l]arge numbers of Uyghur detainees have died or been killed under police or camp custody" and references other reporting from RFA regarding at least one mass death incident and the construction of crematoria in Xinjiang. Haaretz is a perennial reliable source, so I am wondering if others find this to be sufficient coverage to warrant the inclusion of "mass murder" in the infobox. (I plan to leave the item in while this discussion is pending, though I want to hear if other editors believe that including "mass murder" in the infobox follows is proper. Update: removed by MarkH21 until consensus is achieved one way or the other per their reasoning below.) — Mikehawk10 (talk) 20:37, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing in the article about mass murder yet except the recent addition to the infobox. Removal is an option. Gators bayou (talk) 20:48, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that at least 25,000 Uyghurs being killed by government for organs every year counts as mass murder, and there are reports of other killings unrelated to organs, with crematoria built to dispose victims. Newlines Institute for Strategy and Policy report says that CCP breached all articles in genocide convention, including killing members of the group. Oranjelo100 (talk) 23:57, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think the 25,000 includes Falun Gong and other citizens as according to unconfirmed reports. The Newsline report says 150 Uyghurs are confirmed killed, which compares with 226 black citizens killed by U.S. police in 2020. TFD (talk) 03:48, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The 150 number was for a single small camp, not the whole country. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:43, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

25,000+ is for Xinjiang alone. Haaretz aritcle says China makes about 2.5 to 5 percent of healthy individuals in Uyghur camps disappear every year without trace. Presumably for lethal organ extractions or secret executions or both since they never show up again. Add to that crematoria built near camps, “health checks” that Uighurs undergo in Xinjiang, and on average, the disappeared being 28 – Beijing’s preferred age for organ harvesting. It's quite clear by now that Uyghur genocide includes both gradual cultural and physical extermination (at least in part, which is enough for definition of genocide). Oranjelo100 (talk) 04:34, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The estimate is from Ethan Gutmann, a researcher from the notorious Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. He has for years written about the supposed murder of Falun Gong members for organ transplants. His claims are mostly reported in news sources that Wikipedia disparages rather than respected sources such as Haaretz. The fact that a reporter in Haaretz cited his estimate does not make it true. Based on the source, I would rate it as probably not true, although anything is possible. TFD (talk) 05:34, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"His claims are mostly reported in news sources that Wikipedia disparages rather than respected sources” that doesn't appear to be true, his claims seem to be reported on by most of our respected sources. I’d also lay off the editorializing, its hard to take you seriously when you refer to such a milquetoast organization as the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation as “notorious.” The only source I can find using that language is a Feb. 7 article from the People's Daily [25]. Are there any reliable sources which refer to this organization as notorious? Surely you aren’t repeating Chinese government propaganda points verbatim? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There was consensus at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 329#Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation that the Foundation was a biased and unreliable source. However, I will look through where his opinions have been published in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 14:36, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Biased and unreliable does not mean notorious... Given that you’ve inserted it into a BLP sentence you either need to provide a WP:RS which supports that position or retract it. We take BLP very seriously here, even the worst person on earth (who almost certainly has a wikipedia page btw) gets full BLP protection. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It should also be noted that the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation was created by the US government as an explicitly anti-Communist organization. On Chinese issues, it should be regarded as highly biased and of questionable reliability. -Thucydides411 (talk) 10:28, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Regarding Ethan Gutmann's prior work on organ harvesting in China, his work on the organ harvesting (as it pertains to Falun Gong) has been referenced by many reliable news sources before. This includes the New York Times, the Times of London, CNN, The Independent, the Irish Times, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, and PBS, the Sydney Morning Herald as well as in opinion pieces in The Wall Street Journal and The Diplomat. Regarding his statements on organ harvesting of Uyghurs, sources include Fox News, Radio Free Asia (1 2), the Taipei Times, the New Zealand Herald, CNN, News.com.au, Sky News, the British Medical Journal, and other sources in addition to the Haaretz source provided before.

As a result, I don't think that the claim that "his claims are mostly reported in news sources that Wikipedia disparages" holds much water in terms of determining Gutmann's reliability about organ harvesting in either the general case or the specific case as it applies to Uyghurs. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 06:45, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To add to the above, his 2014 book on the Chinese organ harvesting apparatus, The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvesting, and China's Secret Solution to its Dissident Problem, has been cited in numerous works published in peer-reviewed journals, including the BMJ, BMC Medical Ethics (1 2 3), and the British Journal of Criminology. I don't think that we should write him off as being untrustworthy. If nothing else, he seems to be a subject-matter expert. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 07:11, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article isn't about that but there is plenty of evidence about Falun Gong being killed for organs by China. Oranjelo100 (talk) 05:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Another source supporting mass murder organ harvesting.

[26]

Oranjelo100 (talk) 09:14, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I just clicked on the first four links you posted, and they all treat the claim of organ harvesting as an allegation made in a report, not as a fact. I see that some of your later links are from Radio Free Asia and taiwannews.com. Note that Radio Free Asia is US state media, and has a record of pushing extremely dubious claims about China (for example, it has reported credulously on claims that 150,000 people have died in Hubei province of CoVID-19 - these figures are not only orders of magnitude higher than those found by scientific studies, but are actually impossible with any reasonable assumptions). The website taiwannews.com has also pushed CoVID-19 conspiracy theories, and should be regarded as unreliable for any potentially contentious claims about mainland China. In general, allegations of organ harvesting are extremely controversial. Even the US Congressional Research Office has expressed serious doubts about the claims, pointing out the lack of evidence for them and the ties between the committee that created the report and Falun Gong: [27]. Given the sourcing, claims of organ harvesting should not be presented as fact. These claims should be clearly attributed (for example, in the case of Gutmann, to the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, additionally noting that this is a US-government-create anti-Communist think tank), and countervailing claims (from the Chinese government, the US Congressional Research Office and others) should be presented. -Thucydides411 (talk) 10:57, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The point I'm making is that RS have reported on the allegations, with some of them (notably the Irish Times, the New Zealand Herald, the BMJ, BCM Medical Ethics, the British Journal of Criminology) presenting them as fact, rather than reporting on them as allegations (and none appear to explicitly report that the allegations are false or fabricated). This was more about whether including Gutmann's research is due, which I think that the massive amounts of coverage over many years establishes clearly.

On a separate note and as I've stated elsewhere, "there is little reason to think RFA demonstrates some systematic inaccuracy, unreliability, or level of government co-option", even if it receives funding from the United States, and "attribution of its point of view and funding by the U.S. government" is appropriate, each per the relevant RfC that was closed less than a week ago. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 04:07, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RFA has, over the past year, pushed misinformation about the CoVID-19 death toll in China. This is one of the reasons why the RfC noted that attribution is sometimes necessary for RFA's claims, particularly in geopolitically-charged topics (which the allegations of genocide on Xinjiang certainly are). Claims of genocide are extraordinary claims, and they need very strong sourcing to be stated in Wikivoice. Reporting generally attributes these claims to Zenz and others who work for US government think tanks. Attribution is required for these claims. Moreover, the responses of the Chinese government to the allegations also have to be given, and views beyond the Anglosphere media more generally should be included. -Thucydides411 (talk) 10:06, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Discussions about Gutmann and the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation aside, is there any other RS that reports anything about the 25,000 mass murder figure? I only see the single article from Haaretz which says: Gutmann believes at least 25,000 people are murdered every year in Xinjiang and their organs harvested. If not, this may be a WP:WEIGHT issue. — MarkH₂₁^talk 02:58, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As far as the specific number, I found that the figure has been referenced in an opinion pieces published by the Toronto Star. Regarding the organ harvesting writ large, it has been reported as fact in a bunch of places—the sources I listed above in my response to TFD include a bunch. I can find more if you would like. I missed the National Catholic Register and the Religion News Service (re-published in America Magazine) in my initial assessment, and Haaretz seems to have doubled down on its initial reporting that organ harvesting is occurring. Radio Free Asia has reported similarly, and Reuters has reported on organ harvesting allegations before. I think the organ harvesting itself is sufficiently sourced and relevant enough to be due, though I am a bit more reserved regarding the specific 25,000 number. It’s definitely reported by an WP:RS, so it passes WP:V, though I wonder if a full quote is due when compared to a paraphrased portion of the author's claims. Gutmann is definitely an expert in the field and has been key in investigating organ harvesting in China in the past (receiving coverage from a large amount of RS), so it's most likely proper to include his work in the article in some form. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 06:22, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that some coverage of the organ harvesting statements are due in the article. My previous comment was meant for the original topic of this section, whether mass murder is appropriate in the infobox. I don't think that one RS and one opinion article, both attributing the claim to a single person, are sufficient WP:WEIGHT for listing mass murders in the infobox (or lead). When there are more sources asserting that mass murders have occurred (with particular weight for sources that actually use the term), then it may be appropriate. — MarkH₂₁^talk 07:26, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mass murder is a WP:REDFLAG claim, and it needs very strong sourcing in order to be put in Wikivoice. An opinion piece or a news article reporting on claims made by Falun Gong is not sufficient. Note that the above Reuters article does not claim that organ harvesting is going on. It merely reports that a lawyer for the "China Tribunal" (which is connected to Falun Gong) has demanded an investigation into alleged organ harvesting. That's not the same as Reuters claiming that organ harvesting is actually occurring. As for Radio Free Asia, it should only be used with extreme caution for possibly contentious claims about China, as it is US state media and has a history of pushing highly dubious claims about China (RFA's claims about the number of CoVID-19 deaths in China over the past year can only be described as misinformation, for example: [28][29]). -Thucydides411 (talk) 11:07, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Thucydides411: Per the results of the recent RfC regarding the reliability of Radio Free Asia, there is "consensus that, in general, Radio Free Asia can be considered a reliable source, but particularly in geopolitically-charged areas, attribution of its point of view and funding by the U.S. government may be appropriate." Additionally, the closure states that "there is little reason to think RFA demonstrates some systematic inaccuracy, unreliability, or level of government co-option" that would preclude its use in this context. In other words, RfA is generally reliable, though we should use in-text attribution on geopolitically charged issues, such as this one. I do not think that it would be a good use of our time to rehash that same discussion here, considering that there is now community consensus regarding the source's reliability. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 14:47, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that "mass murder" is a WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim. I guess the question that we are facing is if the forced organ harvesting described by RS constitutes "mass murder", and if this claim of "mass murder" has been subsequently reported as such by multiple reliable sources. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 14:50, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The RfC close noted concerns when Radio Free Asia writes on geopolitically-charged issues. Those concerns were based, in part, on misinformation that RFA has propagated over the past year about CoVID-19 mortality in China, but also on RFA's history as a US government propaganda outlet, and its explicit mission (stated in its charter) to advance US foreign policy interests. In this context, that means that claims made by RFA require attribution, and must be treated as claims - not facts.

I guess the question that we are facing is if the forced organ harvesting described by RS constitutes "mass murder". Which RS? The claims of organ harvesting are widely viewed as dubious and lacking evidence. As I said above, the first four sources you linked above described claims of organ harvesting as allegations, not as a fact. The groups making those allegations have close connections to Falun Gong, and as the US Congressional Research Office has noted, they have not provided any direct evidence for their claims. -Thucydides411 (talk) 15:21, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Thucydides411: There are definitely plenty of RSes that describe what people have said about organ harvesting, that is for sure. It seems then that you are raising a separate question about when attributed descriptions / allegations / claims / whatever become sufficient for WP:WIKIVOICE statements, e.g. in the infobox. It is an interesting one that is probably more dependent on editor judgment and discussion (as most NPOV matters are), but might be better as a separate discussion since it is broader than just organ harvesting. — MarkH₂₁^talk 02:47, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are many news article describing the allegations, but that is very different from news articles corroborating the allegations. In 2002-2003, if we had considered news articles reporting on allegations sufficient to make Wikivoice statements, we could have written an extensive article about all of Iraq's WMD programs. Allegations do not become truth through repetition. -Thucydides411 (talk) 16:26, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Mikehawk10: It is not for editors to decide whether organ harvesting constitutes mass murder (WP:SYNTH). If there are more RSes that say that mass murder of Uyghurs has occurred, then it has due weight and appropriate to include it outright in the infobox.

By the way, since it is an WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim that was recently added and does not yet have consensus for inclusion, I'll remove it for the time being (WP:ONUS). We can add it back upon reaching a consensus for inclusion. — MarkH₂₁^talk 02:47, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense.— Mikehawk10 (talk) 03:26, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Deliberately killing tens of thousands people for organs definitely does constitute "mass murder". There are many different soucs and organizations reporting organ harvesting in China. This is happening for many years, and Chinese doctors even admitted it so it isn't dubious. Oranjelo100 (talk) 23:02, 17 March 2021

@Mikehawk10: @MarkH21: "It is not for editors to decide whether organ harvesting constitutes mass murder".

The source literally says that they get killed to have their organs harvested and how many are killed. WP:COMMONSENSE Oranjelo100 (talk) 07:34, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I added killings to the infobox since there are multiple reliable sources that say China is actively killing Uyghurs. Oranjelo100 (talk) 15:13, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Adrian Zenz is not a credible source, and everything about this ultimately leads back to him. He is a religious right extremist, an anti-Semite, a women's rights opponent, and based all of his claims on a single report by Istiqlal TV. "Even more deranged, Zenz’s big genocide study claimed that women in Xinjiang receive 800 to 1600 IUD insertions per capita. That means every Uighur woman is surgically implanted with 4 to 8 IUDs every single day of the year." https://www.mintpressnews.com/china-uighur-genocide-behind-us-government-propaganda/276085/?fbclid=IwAR0bVpitL9_rklQJxqBCw8iKkCoPQ7dwjQGDQ2gt44cdXCcCMFYqtMXUg94 --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 04:37, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a real source? You appear to have linked to Mint Press News which does not meet the standards of our WP:BLP policy. A policy which I would note applies on talk pages as well, you might want to do some editing. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:46, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Adrian Zenz is co-author of a book, Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation, where he argues that there will be two raptures. According to him, we are living in the end times and Jesus will return shortly. One third of Jews will be "refined in God's fiery furnace and will end up obtaining salvation," while the other two thirds will burn for eternity. While I respect your right to hold whatever views you do, even if they differ from mine, Zenz's views are not consistent with mainstream scholarship on astrophysics or social sciences. Anyway, I think that an argument about the rapture would be a distraction on this page, so if you want to argue that it has mainstream support in reliable sources, please take it to my talk page. TFD (talk) 06:40, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Theology as a field is not consistent with mainstream scholarship on astrophysics or social sciences, that is particularly true of eschatology. What does that have to do with out BLP policy? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:02, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mintpress is a conspiracy theories promoting site. This isn't a reliable source. His religious believes are irrevelant to Uyghur genocide. Data is available showing massive drops in birth rates. Oranjelo100 (talk) 09:51, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Religious views are relevant if he is interpreting current events to fit in to his theory that we are living in the end times when antichrists will persecute and kill "God's people." Also, he's a researcher with the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. Furthermore, the media is merely reporting his views, then are not endorsing them. TFD (talk) 14:31, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You need to provide reliable sources for those claims, without that it's wp:synth and wp:or. Oranjelo100 (talk) 14:43, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR says, "This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages and other pages which evaluate article content and sources, such as deletion discussions or policy noticeboards." Obviously some degree of critical thinking is required in evaluating the reliability of sources. There are credibility issues for the reporting of current events by someone who interprets them as the end times struggle between Satan and God's people, foretold long ago in the books of Daniel and Revelation. Zenz said for example that the establishment of Israel and the occupation of the West Bank were required in order for Christ to return. TFD (talk) 23:12, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To borrow from the Christian Zionism article, Christian Zionism is an idea that has been common in Protestant circles since the Reformation that Christians should actively support a Jewish return to the Land of Israel, along with the parallel idea that the Jews ought to be encouraged to become Christians as a means of fulfilling biblical prophecy. A 2017 LifeWay poll conducted in United States found that 80% of evangelical Christians believed that the creation of Israel in 1948 was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy that would bring about Christ's return and more than 50% of Evangelical Christians believed that they support Israel because it is important for fulfilling the prophecy.^[1] According to the Pew Research survey in 2003, more than 60% of the Evangelical Christians and about 50% of Blacks agreed that the existence of Israel fulfilled biblical prophecy. About 55% of poll respondents said that the Bible was the biggest influence for supporting Israel which is 11 times the people who said church was the biggest influence.^[1]

His religious beliefs don't seem to be disqualifying here in any narrowly tailored sense and they seem to be fairly common. Zenz has also seemed to have articulated some belief in Hell, which the author of the piece you've linked has bizarrely chosen to characterize as anti-semetic. The notion that we should be prejudiced against Zenz's work because of his religious faith doesn't seem to be due here, especially when boatloads of reliable sources have reported on it so heavily.

Also, are you arguing that Zenz believes that Muslims are God's people? I don't see any evidence for that except for the dubious Mint Press News link you have provided (the source has a history of reposting links from deprecated sources, such as RT and from Sputnik). On its face, I don't think the argument that has been presented has legs to stand on.— Mikehawk10 (talk) 02:02, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's one of the definitions of God's people: "people who worship or believe in God." (Oxford)[30] That seems to be the meaning in p. 240, where under the "Antichrist's world dominion...[he] will implement the worst-ever persecution of God's people." Although Zenz does not define God's people, in context it appears he is using this definition rather than the narrower definition of God's people as Jews only. He mentions for example that the anti-Christ would persecute the church (p. 210).

Also, per Giving "equal validity" can create a false balance, we don't give equal weight to views that have no acceptance in reliable sources, even if they are popular.

I notice you dislike conspiracy theories. A conspiracy theory is an explanation of events based on the belief in an evil, all powerful and all knowing cabal, in this case directed by Satan and his lieutenants in the New World Order, which was created by the UK and U.S., France and the USSR, which is identified as the "Three Beasts." (p. 38) Do I have to explain why this is a less than credible explanation of post-WW2 history?

TFD (talk) 03:35, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is off-topic WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. Also WP:FORUM. Oranjelo100 (talk) 06:48, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that Zenz has fringe views about the existence of the rapture is irrelevant to his reporting on Uyghurs. Just read Religious views of Isaac Newton, Isaac Newton's claim that the world would end sometime after 2060 doesn't detract from the foundational work he did in physics. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:29, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We accept Newton's laws of physics because they have been tested and correctly don't accept anything else he wrote as authoritative. If someone determines the facts from biblical prophesy and sets out to prove them, then we are rightly sceptical. The same applies to Zenz' interpretation of Western countries today. For example, he believes that the enlightenment, modernism and post-modernism all contributed to the rise of the final antichrist through teaching moral relativism, mistrust of authority and atheism, and building global communication and transportation and modern technology. The scientific, rational approach is to base conclusions on evidence.

Oranjelo100, as I replied to you before, "WP:OR says, "This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages and other pages which evaluate article content and sources, such as deletion discussions or policy noticeboards." Obviously some degree of critical thinking is required in evaluating the reliability of sources. There are credibility issues for the reporting of current events by someone who interprets them as the end times struggle between Satan and God's people, foretold long ago in the books of Daniel and Revelation. Zenz said for example that the establishment of Israel and the occupation of the West Bank were required in order for Christ to return." [23:12, 16 March 2021][31]

TFD (talk) 19:17, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Zenz does not appear to mix their eschatology with their work on human rights in China, WP:RS say he’s an expert and his work is accepted by other experts in that field... Do you have sources which say otherwise? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:44, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, Zenz has said that his writings on China are part of a mission from God (in the WSJ, for example, though I think he's also said this elsewhere). More concerning is that he works for the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, which is a US-government think tank created explicitly to convince the public of the evils of Communism (some might categorize this as propaganda). Claims made by Zenz should be clearly attributed, and the fact that he works for an anti-Communist US-government think tank should be mentioned. Looking through the article, this connection does not appear to be explained anywhere. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:24, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Glad you have no WP:RS which say he is unreliable. As for the new point I’ve never seen the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation described like that, do you have any sources which back up this extremely strong take? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:29, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

When the VCMF was brought up at the RSN, the reception was overwhelmingly negative, see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_329#Victims_of_Communism_Memorial_Foundation. I agree that claims by Zenz should be attributed, but he's such a consistent presence in mainstream coverage of Uyghur issues that we can't avoid discussing his claims. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:37, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We all agree Zenz should be attributed, we already do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:39, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As for my description of the VCMF, I think it's fairly uncontroversial (look at the first sentence of Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation). As for attribution, while Zenz is mentioned a few times by name, the fact that he works for an anti-Communist US-government think tank is not. This is part of a broader problem in this article: various people and organizations are cited, but who those people are and what those organizations are is not explained. For example, Ethan Gutmann is simply described as an independent reseracher and expert on human rights abuses in China. The fact that he works for VCMF (and the nature of VCMF) is not described, though they are clearly relevant, given the claims he's making. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:11, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source for the claim that its "a US-government think tank created explicitly to convince the public of the evils of Communism” I don’t see that on our page about the organization or in any of the linked sources. WP:RS treat them as experts and their claims as credible, it is not within our power to second guess them. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:15, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm essentially paraphrasing their own self-description, which you can read here: [32]. Here's an extract:

To further this vision, the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation's mission is to educate future generations about the ideology, history, and legacy of communism and to advocate for the freedom of those still held captive by communist regimes. Positive attitudes toward communism and socialism are at an all-time high in the United States. We have a solemn obligation to expose the lies of Marxism for the naïve who say they are willing to give collectivism another chance.

This is quite explicitly a propaganda organization created by the US government. Their claims about China should be taken with extreme caution. If their claims are mentioned in an article, they must be attributed, and the attribution must describe the nature and purpose of the organization. -Thucydides411 (talk) 16:02, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Hemiauchenia: The discussion regarding the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation is based upon the question, "Is the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation website a reliable source for the article Mass killings under communist regimes?". This is not the question that we are attempting to answer here, which is about the credibility of Adrian Zenz, but instead is about the general reliability of the group as it is. Instead, to determine the credibility of Zenz more generally, let's examine what reliable sources say about Zenz's work. Perennial reliable sources, such as the Wall Street Journal, have referred to Zenz's work as "groundbreaking, empirical work" in their news reporting (their editorial board also notes elsewhere that, Reuters "has independently corroborated the Zenz documents and evidence"). His work in the Journal of Political Risk has been cited to back up facts in a paper published in Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs, which is a peer-reviewed academic journal, editorials from The Washington Post (1 2 3 4), as well as other reports from reliable news organizations (including The Independent and the BBC). His other work has been explicitly cited or positively described countless times by a plethora of reliable news organizations, including The Washington Post (1 2 3 4 5 6), The New York Times (1 2 3), The Wall Street Journal (1 2), Reuters (1 2 3 4 5 6), ABC News , the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (1 2 3 4 5 6 7), the Associated Press (1 2 3 4 5 ), the CBC, Axios, Fox News (1 2 3), NBC News, NPR (1 2), and many others. If widespread citation without comment for facts is evidence of a source's reputation and reliability for similar facts, I don't see how we could reasonably conclude that Zenz is not a credible source. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 22:40, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Zenz does not meet the standard of expert in Wikipedia which normally requires academic training in the area, a university appointment and most importantly a body of relevant literature in peer-reviewed journals and books published by academic publishers. This issue comes up frequently at RSN where journalists, members of think tanks and writers of popular books are discussed. Being called an expert by a reporter does not make someone an expert because that goes beyond the competence of news reporting.

I didn't click all the links but Cate Cadell at Reuters describes him as "an independent Tibet and Xinjiang researcher" whose findings on Tibet were published by the Jamestown Foundation. She further says that Reuters corroborated his findings and reported China's response. That's how we maintain accuracy and neutrality in articles: we attribute in text every claim, we tell readers in text who the claimant is and where the claim was made, and we comment on the degree of acceptance of the claim and what the accused person says. We shouldn't treat Zenz like a latter day prophet whose words are gospel and should be reported as fact.

TFD (talk) 23:01, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do you feel that news organizations, such as the Associated Press, are not competent at doing research for investigative reporting? It seems like news organizations might have quite a bit of competence in performing research during investigations to uncover malfeasance by state and non-state actors alike. I agree that we shouldn't trust any single person as a latter-day prophet who can never err when self-publishing, especially for exceptional claims. But, when multiple independent reliable sources (including peer-reviewed journal articles) confirm Zenz's research or report them as facts without comment, we should have no special hesitation to include them in the article as such simply because Zenz is the one doing the legwork to produce the research in question. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 00:02, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You would save everyone a lot of time if you read other editors posts before replying to them. Please read my post again before making strawman arguments against it. TFD (talk) 00:28, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

David Cohen, who was featured yesterday by Lee Camp, notes that many of the other sources, include a great deal of news articles, ultimately trace back to Zenz.--Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 00:49, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It seems strange to me that most of the original research is coming from Gutman and Zenz, both researchers for the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. While the information they provided wouldn't surprise me, I cannot accept two researchers for an organization we have determined to be unreliable. So, as I said and was misrepresented by Mikehawk10, we should not consider Zenz to be a modern day prophet, but report his opinions in the same way that reliable sources do. That is, "we attribute in text every claim, we tell readers in text who the claimant is and where the claim was made, and we comment on the degree of acceptance of the claim and what the accused person says."[23:01, 17 March 2021] Why should we report their statements as facts when mainstream media doesn't? TFD (talk) 01:24, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How did I misrepresent you? I'm offering a counterpoint regarding the ability of news organizations to conduct investigations more generally, which might play a role in determining the credibility behind describing Zenz as an expert/credible investigative researcher. My other point was that we shouldn't have a special hesitation to include Zenz's research when multiple independent sources cite Zenz. I think we're in agreement that we need to follow the WP:RS guideline, and I think that WP:USEBYOTHERS plays a key role here regarding Zenz's work on Xinjiang in particular. The RfC on VoCMF concluded that we can't cite VoCMF for its information on its website in a very specific case—estimates for mass murder in a specific article—with many editors citing its role as an advocacy organization and arguing that it's a self-published source. And, to be fair, the article in question in the RfC was certainly a self-published source. That's significantly different than the case of looking at Zenz's work that has been corroborated by news agencies and used as a source for facts in articles published in peer-reviewed journals. I don't think that we should have a special level of skepticism on the media sources simply because many of them have used Zenz's work (or even, like perennial reliable source Reuters, explicitly corroborated Zenz's work), absent a similar number of similar quality reliable sources reporting that Zenz's work is not credible. If you can find such RS, I'd be happy to reconsider, but until then I don't see any reason why we can't use Zenz's work in the article (provided that such work has been used for facts by sources the community finds to be generally reliable) since I have been unable to find any (and, to the best of my knowledge, other editors have not presented them).— Mikehawk10 (talk) 03:25, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You asked me, "Do you feel that news organizations, such as the Associated Press, are not competent at doing research for investigative reporting?" That's after I said that we should report Zenz' statements in the same way that Reuters did. That's called a strawman argument. Instead of addressing what I said, you falsify my statements and attack them. I have better things to do with my time than to argue with dishonest criticisms. I don't want to argue with people who pretend to be stupid. Why do you want to use that approach to arguments? Can't you come up with rational arguments to support your beliefs? TFD (talk) 04:31, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

First off, I presented an alternative framing to push back against the notion that "[b]eing called an expert by a reporter does not make someone an expert because that goes beyond the competence of news reporting" in this particular case. It's an argument (albeit not phrased super clearly; my bad) that he's considered to be an expert investigative researcher by people who also work in the field of investigative reporting and might be qualified to give a professional judgement on this count, since the two oftentimes perform similar sorts of work in bringing malfeasance to light.

Second off, regarding Reuters: reporting it the same way would be to affirm the veracity of Zenz's claims. I'm more than fine doing that, but I don't understand why we would even need to attribute the work to Zenz if we have high-quality reliable sources saying that Zenz is correct, rather than simply stating it in wikivoice in this specific case. I agree that generally Zenz's statements should be attributed, but also that when multiple high-quality RS are reporting the same thing as Zenz (or are reporting that Zenz is correct) that we might just want to state it in Wikivoice.

Finally, I respectfully ask you to strike your statements alleging that I am being dishonest in my criticisms and that I am pretending to be stupid. I don't believe that this is civil and it's rather insulting to read these, since alleging that I am pretending to be stupid comes across as a personal attack. While I understand that this is a serious and meaningful topic that it appears we are each relatively passionate about, I don't believe that I've falsely attributed views to you in my comments or that I have pretended to be unintelligent in my comments.— Mikehawk10 (talk) 04:59, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Reuters article in question only claims that Reuters has corroborated one very specific claim by Zenz: that China has expanded a job-training program in Tibet meant to shift people from a nomadic lifestyle to modern industrial jobs (note that this has nothing to do with genocide, and is moreover a Tibetan program, and is therefore irrelevant to this article). Zenz has made many wide-ranging allegations about China, which go far beyond this particular claim. More generally, in this article, we have to differentiate between established facts and claims made by organizations like VCMF (including Zenz and Gutmann) and ASPI, which are linked to the US government (and in the case of ASPI, a number of governments allied to the US, as well as US weapons manufacturers). -Thucydides411 (talk) 16:19, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not much to add here. Zenz is reliable according to multiple rses. Also here, Adrian Zenz is called a leading China scholar. [33] ​Oranjelo100 (talk) 15:21, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Given that he has no identifiable expertise on China, I wouldn't give too much weight to a throwaway line in a Vox piece. Zenz works for VCMF, which is a US government think tank and which looks an awful lot like a propaganda outlet, even from its own "About" page (Positive attitudes toward communism and socialism are at an all-time high in the United States. We have a solemn obligation to expose the lies of Marxism for the naïve who say they are willing to give collectivism another chance.). We really have to attribute his claims. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:06, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The New York Times has published Zenz's opinion pieces with the tagline that he is a "expert on China's ethnic politics," as of 2016. He's got a Ph.D. in social anthropology from Cambridge, where his doctoral thesis focused on youth educational opportunities, career opportunities, and ethnic identity in Tibet (The German source says that "Er schrieb seine Doktorarbeit in der Sozialanthropologie über Minderheitenausbildung, Berufschancen und die ethnische Identität junger Tibeter in Westchina", if you would like to be really specific). He has also written a book, published by Brill Publishers, regarding Chinese policies in Tibet, and is the author of an academic journal article published in Central Asian Survey, which is a publication of Taylor & Francis. He's also written in the Journal of Political Risk quite a few times. The notion that he somehow has no identifiable expertise on China does not appear to be true, and the information I've included her about books and journal articles of his can also be found on his wikipedia page. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 20:45, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Does he speak Chinese or the Uyhgur language? Has he been to Xinjiang? In this article, we're relying extremely heavily on unsubstantiated claims by a very small number of people who work for US government think tanks. That's concerning. We have to attribute these claims, with a full explanation of where they come from, and we have to explain the responses and criticisms of those claims, including in Chinese media. This is really the minimum required by WP:NPOV. -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:56, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is certainly a good point. However, we also need to keep WP:FALSEBALANCE in mind. Some of these so-called "responses and criticisms" are flat-out (obvious) lies.

Additionally, I've seen the goalposts move woefully often in this discussion, which is another thing that we need to keep in mind (despite WP:EXTRAORDINARY). TucanHolmes (talk) 10:19, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Thucydides411 and TucanHolmes:, it would appear that Zenz indeed is literate in Chinese. In his 2010 book , 'Tibetanness' Under Threat?, he references Chinese terms heavily, providing transliterations for readers. When his findings regarding an investigation into labor in Tibet was corroborated by Reuters, there were a lot of (Chinese language) government documents that were analyzed. A work in the Journal of Political Risk of which he is the sole author also contains translations directly from Chinese to English of the Karakax List. It would simply be unfeasible for Zenz to be able to do everything he has done (whether it be his books, his doctoral thesis, his translations of documents, or his primary source-heavy investigations) without literacy in Chinese language. When this is coupled with the fact that much of Zenz’s research has been corroborated by other scholars and independent media outlets, and this work involves heavy analysis of primary government document sources, I don't see any evidence that would lead me to conclude anything other than that he is literate in Chinese. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 21:03, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is unreasonable to switfly remove any and all problem tags added to the article when in consideration of the contents of this talkpage, the content of the article is quite questionable to put it mildly. Until all concerns are addressed, at the very least, it is reasonable to have a problem tag warning at the top of the page. After all, the article is heavily dependent on an German "researcher" with a very colorful reputation, cites RFA (which has a vested interest to give China negative media attention, truthful or not, considering it is dependent on funding of the US gov, which is quite at odds with China). Undue weight is given to narratives that suit the title, and anything that contradicts that anti-China frenzy is disregarded, unmentioned. (Like how an "eyewitness" invoked significantly changed her testimony from "I wasn't beaten or abused" in February 2020 to claiming to now claiming to have been gang-raped). I propose that the article have a multiple-issues tag until the following issues are resolved:

1. Uyghurs titular people of Xinjiang - if China wants to get rid of Uyghur identity like Western reports claim, why do they still have it? (When the USSR considered a people an "unwanted nation", their autonomous region was always dissolved into a regular oblast). If Uyghurs were hypothetically stripped of titular status in Xinjiang, then there MIGHT be enough reason to call it genocide - but articles about situations where such things happened (like the Surgun, Aardakh, and Operation Ulusy) don't have genocide in the title - even though those peoples endured far more than Uyghurs.
2. China sterilizing post-reproductive-age Uyghur women? Really? Even if the allegations from those women were true (which is doubtful) - that's gotta be the least effective way to genocide people in world history.
3. Thesis of the article dependent on sources with conflict of interest (ie, tied to official state enemies of China). If the allegations were coming from a BFF of China, they would certainly need to be taken seriously. But a lot of the sourcing is dependent on or tied to Western government cutout/offshoots with government funding.
4. Lack of chameleons. Traditionally, when a people gets genocided, discriminated against, or treated like shit, people try to hide from the repercussions - and pretend to not originate from the targeted group if feasible. Like getting into temporary "paper marriages" for the sole purpose of taking on a surname not associated with their ethnic group. Or telling little white lies-of-ommission to make people assume you're from a different ethnic group. Or lying about paternity (esp if the state considers ethnicity to be something solely inherited paternally). Or using a pseudonym that you pulled out of your ass (not a nickname/stage name) for most of your life. While interethnic marriage has been increasing, there have been no claims that such marriages are "on paper only" then intended for divorce ASAP for the sole purpose to gain a Han surname. The lack of Xinjiang "chameleons" indicates that there isn't reason for Uyghurs to pretend not be Uyghur - like a genocide!
5. Overall weak "evidence"/not unprecedented things that just ain't genocide. Banning a few certain Islamic baby names like "Jihad" while allowing most is hardly evidence of genocide. Lots of countries have laws specifying that you cannot give your child a name that would cause or could potentially cause undue emotional harm. Heck, Denmark even has a list a pre-approved baby names and you need official permission to use one not on the list. The baby name law does not apply solely to Uyghurs or people in Xinjiang, it applies to everyone in China, such as Hui people (who also give their children Islamic names).

--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 01:34, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To briefly respond:

1. We base our articles of what is being reported by reliable sources. If you think that the title of a region (broadly construed) precludes the possibility of genocide, I don't see a convincing reason that this is true or reflected in history. This sort of logic would preclude The Holocaust from affecting Jews in Warsaw because there was a specifically named Jewish Residential District in Warsaw that was provided titular autonomy from the city as a whole and had a Jewish Council that was nominally responsible for overseeing the ghetto. Of course, we know now that the Warsaw Judenrat was obviously not granted any real power in stopping the oncoming genocide and no mainstream scholars today would even so much as attempt to assert otherwise.
2. What reliable sources are you referencing to determine that China was sterilizing exclusively post-menopausal women? Reliable sources, such as the Associated Press, have reported that China has been slashing Uyghur birth rates through the installation of IUDs and that birth rates have dropped. And, Chinese officials have confirmed the drop in birth rates, though they attribute it to voluntary family planning (and this is noted in the article).
3. We use reliable sources to build articles. I would hardly call the BMJ or Reuters an agent of an official state enemy of China. The same goes for the Associated Press, The Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, The Washington Post, and the vast majority of other sources used in the article that are listed as generally reliable over at WP:RSP.
4. There are well-documented reports of people fleeing Xinjiang in response to the treatment there (1 2 3). And, not for nothing, but China has a brutally effective way to track Uyghurs and has been collecting DNA en masse in Xinjiang, so becoming a "chameleon" might very well be obstructed by difficulties not before seen in the realm of genocide.
5. We've had a lengthy move discussion on the name of the page and the result of the relevant move request was to move the page to its current title. Not every single item on the page is about a description of genocidal actions, but much like the Rohingya genocide and Genocide of Yazidis by ISIL pages it also contains content related to persecution more broadly construed.

— Mikehawk10 (talk) 07:58, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, that's a lotta mental gymnastics. To respond briefly:

1. Way to trivialize the Holocaust dude. Warsaw ghetto was called Jewish because it was a ghetto for Jews made by Nazis, not people because Jewish people felt a strong emotional connection to the area as their national homeland.
2. The "witnesses" listed in the article that claim they were forcibly sterilized permanently are hardly of reproductive age, yet their word is treated like gospel. As for IUDs - those are TEMPORARY and REVERSIBLE. China's promotion of birth control isn't limited to Xinjiang, and promoting it (like the free condoms project), offering reliable methods like IUDs for free in areas where it was previously inaccessable (like rural Xinjiang) so that the region isn't "left behind" in services widely available in other regions ain't genocide. The 80% claim that was the result of shoddy math on Zenz's part has been debunked repeatedly.
3. It isn't remotely unusual for "independent" sources to cite, recycle, or be dependent on a plethora of questionable/COI sources. Heck, citing Zenz, RFA, VOA, World Uyghur Congress, Australian Strategic Policy Institute, etc is a standard operating procedure for these guys. And don't even get me started on the RFA article dependent on claims from "anonymous" sources. Lots of independent sources not deprecated also reported the Nayirah testimony as gospel.
4. A few anecdotes of nationalists is hardly a mass exodus. If the current rate of emmigration qualifies as evidence of genocide, we would have to have articles like "Second Crimean Tatar Genocide (2014)" "Second Chechen Genocide" in the spirit of consistency. And while DNA tracking might make it mildly harder to be a chameloen, given genetic diversity, it still wouldn't be impossible by any stretch of the imagination for a Uyghur to pass as Kazakh, Uzbek, etc if in a dire situation. But we haven't seen that happen.
5. And many other users still feel that the wrong decision was made and that renaming is appropriate. I think something along the lines of "Allegations of genocide in Xinjiang" is more appropriate. Calling Xinjiang "genocide" is insulting to everyone that experienced real genocide.

--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 14:45, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be making a lot of extraordinary claims (including those covered by WP:BLP) yet providing zero WP:RS, thats a situation you need to remedy. You’re also far outside the bounds of civility, reign it back in. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@PlanespotterA320: A lot of what you're saying really comes down to WP:OR. It's not on us to debate whether or not it's genocide, it's just up to us to reflect what the WP:RSs say. — Czello 18:32, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What is the reliable sourcing for calling it a genocide? From my reading of the news, the term "genocide" is extremely contentious in this case. The title and lede of the article should make it clear that these are allegations, rather than stating a rather extreme POV in Wikivoice. -Thucydides411 (talk) 10:11, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, this is simply a lot of WP:OR by PlanespotterA320, like "if China wants to get rid of Uyghur identity like Western reports claim, why do they still have it?". Remember Chekhov "why are there spots on the sun if one can do without them"? My very best wishes (talk) 01:13, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@MarkH21: I think you misunderstand, "Reactions by country/region” is all reactions not by NGOs sorted by country/region not a section just for the reactions of governments of countries/regions. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:01, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Horse Eye's Back: My understanding is that the "International reactions" sections for events are generally reserved for supranational and governmental reactions, although often with other reactions (with due weight) listed separately (e.g. how NGOs are currently split off here). For example: Rohingya genocide#International reactions, International reactions to the Rohingya genocide, Reactions to the George Floyd protests#International.

One possibility is to make the current NGO section more general (e.g. NGOs, diaspora groups, protests, etc.), and I think that this should be done to some degree anyways (the Olympics boycott is broader than just an NGO reaction). We should still take care to only include reaction of due WP:WEIGHT though. For example, I don't think that the two specific reactions that I had removed have due weight: the letter from 16 rabbis and 1 cantor and the existence of a community awareness group. There are thousands of rabbis in the US, and 16 of them (+ 1 cantor) writing a letter to one of the 435 representatives is relatively very minor compared to the rest of this article. The existence of a community group in Norway is even less due. — MarkH₂₁^talk 23:20, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Looking through the section in this article, the only other reactions that are not from supranational organizations, government officials, or NGOs appears to be: the Chief Rabbi of the United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth, the 12 Japanese companies, and the protests at the Chinese Consulate in Almaty. All of the other reactions are from supranational organizations, governments, or NGOs. It would make sense to group these non-governmental reactions together (with the NGO reactions since they are non-governmental by definition) into a separate section or subsection. — MarkH₂₁^talk 23:33, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We can do that, but we will need to rename the section. If we’re talking about governments then “regions” is no longer relevant. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:37, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t think there is any formal reservation btw, we cover what WP:RS cover... If they choose to cover reactions other than those by supranational and governmental reactions then so will we. There also becomes the problem that many of these statements were made by individual politicians in democracies and as such are not government responses per say. I think we should just go back to the way it was meant to be plus a few of your smaller changes. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:38, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, "Reactions by country" instead of "Reactions by country/region" is fine. The EU can probably also be grouped with the UN as a supranational organization. There is no formal rule to say that "Reactions" have to be organized by supranational reactions, governmental reactions, non-governmental reactions, etc. but it's a common and logical organization.

What we cover must be covered by RSes, but not everything that is reported by RSes should be included (WP:VNOT and WP:BALASP). There definitely are some that should go in the article. Regarding individual politicians and government officials, their reactions may or may not be due based on their level of coverage and significance; that's something for a case-by-case basis (e.g. a widely covered statement by a foreign minister vs a locally covered statement by a town mayor are quite different).

Regarding we should just go back to the way it was meant to be, the three aforementioned non-governmental reactions were only added in the last three months (not that what came first really matters). — MarkH₂₁^talk 00:05, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've just edited the reactions sections to show what I mean by the supranational/governmental/non-governmental organization. Of course, we can keep discussing and tweaking/adding/removing the section. — MarkH₂₁^talk 01:01, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have worries about salami slicing it but its probably gonna need to be broken off into its own section anyway if this page gets significantly bigger so lets just go for it. I am going to restore the letter from 16 rabbis and 1 cantor under "Reactions by religious groups” because it fits well there and was reported in a feature piece from a global WP:RS. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:09, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Speculation, not proven, remove: rape (including gang rape), forced labor, torture, internment, brainwashing, organ harvesting, killings

Add, motive: counter-terrorism efforts 84.202.30.99 (talk) 07:01, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done, goes against the sources we have in the article. — Czello 16:57, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please protect this page against vandals. They are everywere. My name has eaten (talk) 13:15, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Given the fact that the Chinese government is apparently calling foreign expat activists now to threaten their families, I would be very surprised if there weren't a combination of both low- and high-skilled attempts to manipulate the page content here sponsored by the state, including vandalism. (And I also notice a couple of accounts taking different angles on so-called "reasonable concerns" about the article that have only become active in the past few months and ony edit content relating to China and its genocidal campaign). BlackholeWA (talk) 06:52, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The page is currently semi-protected due to vandalism. I don’t think it’s typical to raise the protection level of a page beyond that until we see autoconfirmed editors engaging in edit warring or other forms of disruptive editing. If you believe that this is occurring, you could take it to WP:RPP, though I personally don’t see evidence of an ongoing edit war or disruptive editing series that would justify a higher level of protection at this time. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 07:20, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Considering that there’s substantial evidence of American pro-war think tank and organizational interference with Wikipedia for years, your fear of editors being “sponsored by the state” is a super funny and hypocritical accusation to make. 47.218.105.234 (talk) 16:35, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@anonymous editor: if you have evidence that certain edits or sources push a POV in some areas of Wikipedia, please raise it on the talk page of the relevant article. Vague mentions of alleged POV-pushing don't give us anything of value as they remain unactionable. Morgengave (talk) 11:28, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• “Boycott Xinjiang Genocide Products! Also don't attack our Chinese neighbors. Just say no to xenophobia and racism!” sticker on New York University campus in 2020 (cropped).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:09, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]