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I've attempted to balance this pretty evenly between the pro and con sides of TM. I have still to find a comment about the puja saying it is no longer connected to Hinduism came out of the Vedic tradition and is now used in a secular fashion which is the official position of the organization and should be included. I had a source for that but can't seem to find it ... so when I find it I'd like to add it to make sure the puja section is complete and neutral. The bold on the Malnak section is a part I feel seems to "weight" that subsection so I would remove it especially since there is material on puja in other parts of the section. I think this is something we can discuss. With all of you I reserve the right to critique my own work should I see that something I've done is not properly balanced(olive (talk) 03:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

you may be interested to know that the purpose of the "puja" is solely that of being a whopping great kick up the backside, to get people started. if nothing else, think of it like you would any other ceremony (such as a marriage ceremony), where intent is declared and someone officially goes "hurrah". i can tell you _right_ now it has sweet xxxx-all to do with hinduism. the only possible accidental link is the fact that the phrases that are sung are in sanskrit. Lkcl (talk) 20:59, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think another weakness may be that we need to add comments from from other religious groups non Christian and especially non Catholic.(olive (talk) 03:50, 23 March 2009 (UTC)) Probably should have put this in a sandbox.(olive (talk) 04:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)) I wasn't sure about adding Markovsky's comment on schools and religion. Looking at the section on schools a couple of things could happen. The Malnak section could be moved to the legal case section, and a single sentence added to the school section referencing the case then adding Markovsky. Or we could leave in the Malnak case add Markovsky and expand the positive aspect of TM in the schools which is very positive these days. As is, the section is pretty "weighty" and adding anything else to it would tip the balance I think.(olive (talk) 12:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

I've moved it to a sandbox, /Reception draft.   Will Beback  talk  18:11, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just starting to look it over, but two questions come immediately to mind: what is the meaning of "considerations" in the section title? And what happened to the "Cult issues" section?   Will Beback  talk  18:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sheesh. Missed the cult issue section probably because I wasn't thinking of doing anything with it ... It should just be added at the end. The only thing I have concerns about with the cult section is that Wikipedia doesn't like the use of the word "cult" and the more I read the more I realize its not a word that is used by serious academics to describe anything except as a kind of cliche term. Maybe there's another term we can use ... maybe not. "Considerations" may be a little too general . I was looking for a word that would allow us to include the several issues some editors have with certain topic areas.... so that we could cover them easily and not worry about somehow trying to connect these different topics .... I'm not attached to the word except in so much as it is neutral ...Thanks for moving to a sandbox. I should have taken care of it last night but was too tired.... so greatly appreciate the help.(olive (talk) 18:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

OK, I duplicated the "cult issues" section so that the proposal will be clear. WP:WTA concerns situations where Wikipedia uses a word for a topic. So it discourages us from saying things like, "Peoples Temple was a cult group in the 1970s" or "The cult then moved to Guyana". It does not prevent us from reporting on assertions by reliable sources that the Peoples Temple was a cult. As for "considerations" - is it a synonym for "issues"? If so, then maybe it'd be better to leave it off, find a better word, or perhaps split the "consideration" topics into a separate section with a sharper definition.   Will Beback  talk  19:19, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'm happy to just use Reception. It probably covers everything and its general enough to include the topics we are dealing with. We can leave cult, too, no problem.(olive (talk) 19:40, 23 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

I'm mystified why the section on the Catholic viewpoint is now much longer in this draft even though the same editor previously argued that a much shorter version gave excess weight to the topic. I'm not sure why the text is completely different. Could the drafter please explain the reasoning behind this part of the draft?   Will Beback  talk  22:38, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Olive you have done a great job of creating a draft that covers all the bases. I have made a number of edits in an effort to clarify your existing points. I hope I have achieved that. There is one sentence that puzzles me though. The last one in the puja section which mentions 'philisophical concepts'. Do you mean concepts utilized in the puja? Anyway please take a look at it and maybe make it more specific. --Kbob (talk) 23:22, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are we sure that this "covers all the bases"? In other words, is this really a full summary of all significant viewpoints concerning the "reception" of the topic? I haven't done a lot of research, but have the other editors done a sufficient survey to make sure that this really covers everything? If not, perhaps that would be a prerequisite.   Will Beback  talk  23:29, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with earlier comments by Olive and Will that maybe the Catholic/Christian viewpoint could be cut back and other religions could be added as needed.--Kbob (talk) 23:22, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

in regards to covering all the bases, maybe something more should be said about transcendental meditation in schools around the world where it is practised and the improved academic outcomes that schools have enjoyed. Also I understand that over 100 corporations in Japan implemented the tm program and that the Japanese Ministry if labour was very impressed with it and sponsored additional research into TM in the work place. At this point the article covers the reception of TM in science and Religion/Spirituality...it would be good to see how it hows been received in education and business. This is a link to a page talking about TM in corporations http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-9244531_ITM --Uncreated (talk) 00:47, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify. I argued strongly that there did not need to be two comments from the Catholic Church that were negative to TM, and two in the length of the article as it was then would be undue weight. After long discussion I felt the Vatican document in the end was probably the better, and I agreed to enter it into the article. I never wanted two statements but I'm trying to compromise here. If I add two negative comments, I added two positive to balance it .... That those two comments were Catholic was simply a matter of the sources I had.... And I mentioned in the comment I made at the beginning of the rewrite that I thought other comments for other religions would be appropriate . You 'll all notice i guess that this whole section is much longer than what we had before. Thus undue weight shifts its balance and there is room for more of everything.

I have attempted to add material based on the discussions to this point in time in which editors were concerned that certain topics they considered to be notable were missing. I note that in googling these topics in Google News Archives, they would appear to be for the most part less notable than thought, and in an effort to satisfy the NPOV notions of everyone, I entered what I could find in strong reliable sources on these topics anyway.

I wouldn't add any new topics to this right now. My preference would be to deal with what we have and then see if it can go into the article. Then after that add other new information with discussion.

Kbob, whatever I have added are not my not my ideas but a summary of text by the author,so I really can't change the words too much. Because of the contentious nature of the article and of the discussions, I am sticking very closely to the wording of the references I cite. Thanks very much for your copy editing :o)...I'll look at the sources and see if I can find a way to clarify the words that are unclear.(olive (talk) 03:35, 24 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

I think there's a misunderstanding about the principle of "balance". If there are prominent sources that say the sky is blue, and minor sources that say the sky is grey, we don't give equal weight to both viewpoints. Olive brought up WP:WEIGHT before. Giving equal weight to a Cardinal and to a pariah priest is inappropriate and does not gives us NPOV. Please re-read WP:NPOV and try again.   Will Beback  talk  03:52, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Which is why I gave more space and material to the cardinal and the Vatican. Will I understand NPOV very well .... and I'll say again, NPOV is not an absolute but is decided on the article by the editors working there in as much as those editors can determine what is notable and what is mainstream for that article and in terms of the media and references. With all of the talk about NPOV here I added material I know is not as notable as some editors think it is ....just to collaborate and compromise so we can move on. I've tried to create some kind of fair balance . If it doesn't suit, say so. Either this rewrite is better than what is in place or its not. If it is not, say so and lets move on. If it is. Put it in place.... and lets move on. and by the way the sky is gray and it is blue. If you live in the Netherlands its mostly gray...So you can see how NPOV can be different for different editors. That's why there is collaboration and community consensus and policies, guidelines...Because there are no absolutes, but there are a lot of opinions ..... It has to be worked out every time :o)..(olive (talk) 04:54, 24 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

No, NPOV is not negotiable. The majority of editors here seem to share a common viewpoint, but their agreement is not sufficient to override Wikipedia policies. I came to this page because of complaints at WP:COIN, and I was assured that there wasn't a problem. What I see is that major controversies are omitted, and efforts to correct the problem are being stonewalled. I advise mediation, and if not this may need to go to other dispute resolution. From what I've seen, there are very serious problems and I don't believe that the currently involved editors can fix it on their own.   Will Beback  talk  05:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am happy to go to mediation , but I am truly amazed and astounded at your comment. I have just spent hours writing an entire section attempting to include specific sub sections on viewpoints that have been absent from this article... mantra, puja, with a format that allows for more of the same if and when this rewrite is added.I attempted to use the sources from the original reception section, except Markovsky which seemed a non sequitur, and Heddon because you were ready to remove him from the original article. But I am open to including them again of there is agreement to do so. I took the original sources and used a more summary style which is preferred on Wikipedia as I'm sure you are aware of and have attempted to make sure there is a balance from the negative and the positive views. I have used only the best academic sources I could find deliberately excluding any TM organization material such as Gerace's book except in the first subsection where TM is self defining. I have been completely and totally open to any changes, points, discussions, to throwing my rewrite out or using the old version ... anything....I have yet to see a specific point from you that indicates in anyway what you don't like or disagree with, what we can change , what you want o get rid of, except that you keep talking about NPOV. I myself discussed the comments for the RC church and I would think there is some agreement to add comments from other religious leaders. I have spent a lot of time with policy and working on the policy pages, and I understand it well.... I have never said that NPOV is negotiable . I am saying that what is NPOV on any given article is not predetermined by some nebulous abstract principle or by the opinions of editors working there, but must be determined by what is available about the topic in the sources, and is as well, a "working" policy in which editors have to work at deciding what the NPOV is going to be in that particular article. What major controversies are being omitted. I added puja. I added mantra, and am obviously open to discussing anything else. There is room for anything else with discussion in the format of the rewrite I did. I can't even begin to see how you can say I stonewalling when I spent the hours I did rewriting this section so that we could include topics discussed in this article. Who is stonewalling when you have yet to give me a single point that you would like changed or any direction at all in terms of what is wrong with this rewrite or even whether you like it or want to go with the old version. Your comments are unfair and untrue. But hey, if you want to go to formal mediation, I will be happy to.(olive (talk) 13:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Exactly. (I'm agreeing with Will, not olive) The "reception" section does not cover all of the issues, and doesn't even deal with reception. I would think that a discussion of reception of TM would include (i) that when MMY first tried to introduce TM to the West under the "Spiritual Regeneration Movement" umbrella, it was not well or widely received because it was being promoted and understood as a religious ( or if you prefer, spiritual) practice; (ii) a change in emphasis, promoting TM for alleged health benefits and de-emphasising it as a spiritual practice including a change of name of the organization, occurred in the mid-sixties, the promotion of TM through college meditation societies @ $35, the as well as interest in TM from various celebrities, led to an increase in interest and participation; (iii) that interest largely collapsed in the late 1970's coinciding with disaffection from TM of the same celebrities, increases in fees, the ruling of the court in Malnik that TM was a religion, cutting off government-sponsored school based TM programs, and increasingly incredible and extravagant claims of the benefits of TM - flying, invisibility, the ability to reduce crime, the ability to affect the weather, etc..... leading to the perception that it was a cult. Additional issues would include criticism of the TM organization from Hindu sources that it was an inappropriately sanitized and simplified version of Hindu practices created for Western consumption, that mantra meditation should not be taught separately from an understanding of its religious underpinnings and was not appropriate as a beginning technique for those not practiced in other spiritual practices, and that it was wrong to charge money for teaching meditation techniques. This leads to the fees issue, which include (i) that charging any fee is inconsistent with the traditions on which the technique is based, and inconsistent with the notion that TM is for everyone, and not just reserved for the wealthy; (ii) the dramatic increases in fees over time, leading to a number of TM teachers defecting in protest, offering to teach the technique at reduced prices or for free, or writing books teaching people the technique; (iii) efforts of the TM organization to register and enforce its service mark, leading to retraining and recertification of all TM teachers and in some cases the suspension of teaching in some countries (as an aside, one might also cite MMY's announcement banning the teaching of TM in the UK in reaction to its foreign policy). There is the German government report classifying TM as a cult. Lots more. TM claims that there are no adverse side effects to TM, but there are several scientific studies showing that a significant population of long-time meditators have significant and severe adverse side effects. It's all properly sourced. The Mantras are assigned solely based on age and gender, and while the students are not told this, they are invocations of Hindu gods; advanced mantras in TM_Sidhi are explicitly invocations of Hindu gods. Etc, etc.... Any time anyone has tried to include any of it, it gets excised by a group of editors with direct ties to the TM organization, acting in concert. No neutral or disinterested editory is likely to have the time or inclination to deal with such a group, dedicated to pushing their POV on this and related articles. 13:50, 24 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fladrif (talk • contribs) Fladrif (talk) 14:40, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Write and source it...and it can be discussed... and by the way check Patanjali for TM Sidhis ...and what else is opinion and incorrect, I wonder.(olive (talk) 15:00, 24 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

I was assured that the editors here were following NPOV and therefore including all significant points of view. Any text or draft which doesn't include major issues, like the mantra controversy, isn't NPOV. I hope that editors will act quickly to fix the article and bring it into compliance with Wikipedia policies.   Will Beback  talk  04:51, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, you are right, the draft, doesn't cover all possible topics but it does cover many of the Religion topics and viewpoints that have been discussed the past month or so on these pages. Its a very good summary and starting point for editing and discussion in my opinion. If there are other viewpoints that are well sourced than as always we can discuss them and include them in the appropriate section of the article. I am also open to the mediation process if that will make everyone feel more comfortable.--Kbob (talk) 19:42, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alas, I am not interested enough to get involved in this section - its the "research" I find interesting - but I have to ask, since when did wiki become an advertising leaflet for TM? For this is how it now reads. Funny, very funny. The7thdr (talk) 22:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the current draft of this section below. Please make specific suggestions as to how you would like to change it. After we finalize this section than we can move on to others in the draft that Olive has created.--Kbob (talk) 19:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Responses to Transcendental Meditation from religious leaders varies. For example: In 1989, The Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith released a document to Bishops of the Catholic Church on “…Some Aspects of Christian Meditation” outlining concerns that the personal and communicative aspects of Christian prayer could be lost in trying to fuse Christian prayer and eastern derived meditation techniques such as Transcendental Meditation, and that such techniques be continuously scrutinized to ensure “syncretism” does not occur. [24] In 1984, Jaime Cardinal Sin, then Catholic Archbishop of Manila, released a pastoral statement in which he outlined concepts taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi that he believed conflicted with Christianity.[25]

Basil Pennington a Cistercian Monk describes the Transcendental Mediation technique as a simple technique that can stand on it own, but whose deep rest can act as a preparation for more traditional prayer. [26] Adrian B Smith, a Catholic Missionary priest describes that the Transcendental Meditation technique in itself is not taught in the context of any religion, but that it can enrich the spiritual aspects of life. [27

I don't think this is an optimal summary of the sources, nor does it give appropriate weight based on the prominence of the viewpoints. I had already proposed shorter, tighter language to cover the RC position:

• Jaime Sin, a cardinal and the Archbishop of Manila, wrote in 1984 that neither the doctrine nor the practice of TM are acceptable to Christians. In 1989, a Vatican council published a warning that mixing eastern meditation, such as TM, with Christian prayer could lead to "dangers and errors".

Why is the text in Olive's draft preferable?

As for Pennington and Smith, how prominent are their viewpoints relative to those of Ratzinger and Sin? Olive's proposal devotes 92 words to the official RC position, and 67 words to the views of a monk and a priest. That appears to give excess weight to their views. Why not keep it simple:

• Some individual Catholic clergy have written that they believe TM is compatible with Christian prayer.

Combined with the other text, that'd be much shorter than what Olive wrote, and more in keeping with NPOV's requirement all significant points of view are included, and weighted according to their prominence.   Will Beback  talk  21:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My draft, in my mind is not the preferred draft. We seem to be arguing about degree of prominence based on word count. I placed the two more notable comments in the lead of the subsection giving them weight . They were longer and more explanatory again giving them weight. They are balanced by two comments from priests/ monks which actually looking at it should be worded differently. There are many religious people who do TM, and see it positively. These two comments are meant to represent those many. Your wording is not really accurate to what they are saying, and each is saying something different, although both are positive.Perhaps a combination of both your draft and my draft would work.

With the expansion of the section I felt we could expand on the material in this subsection giving a clearer explanation and more interesting and informative reading.(olive (talk) 02:44, 25 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

What is the text from Smith that we are summarizing?   Will Beback  talk  22:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am summarizing the book as a whole. Smith describes TM in light of a Christian understanding, and how TM enriches the Christian life and the spiritual life. The chapters are more specific explanations of this. Pennington explains in detail the impact of TM on Christian prayer, but is also describing prayer in its larger definition.(olive (talk) 23:18, 25 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

You've written that my summary is incorrect. Please quote the text you're summarizing. This is an obscure source. If it's a widely held view maybe we can find it expressed by a more prominent writer.   Will Beback  talk  23:38, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've summarized the book above and also in my rewrite ..... This is also a source for Smith and is more notable. [1]. I don't have this but might be able to get hold of it. The issue it seems to me is that within the hierarchy of the Catholic church we have two documents discounting the TM technique. We also have numerous Catholics including priests as well as religious leaders from other religions practicing the technique, and supporting its use. Smith quotes some of these in his book. Others may be found on the official TM site, and David OJ's site. Just using the Vatican and Sin documents does not give a neutral or correct sense of the technique and how it has been received. To be neutral we have consider how to do that.(olive (talk) 00:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

The other book you mention is also hard to find, 7 copies in U.S. libraries versus 3 for the other one. I just don't see why we're quoting this obscure priest. There was a previous complaint about giving the RC official documents excess weight, but I don't see how adding this material helps that. If there are numerous other Catholics clergy who have expressed their views in reliable sources then I'd be interested in seeing them.   Will Beback  talk  01:19, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry Will. I don't buy these arguments. The last book I mention is a published collection of papers given at a Catholic conference. The book has been translated in to several languages according to the inside cover introduction I have of, A key to the Kingdom of Heaven . Is Cardinal Sin's document published in any book and is it in libraries in the US .... the Vatican document? Harlequin romances might be in libraries but that sure doesn't make them notable . My point is that in accessing sources several aspects need to be considered.If your criteria is its not in the libraries then you have to apply that to all sources unless we agree that there are different ways of accessing the importance of a source for an article, and what is needed to make sure an article is NPOV.(olive (talk) 01:56, 26 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

If it is not in libraries, and if those who wish to add it to the article won't share the material they're summarizing, then it is very hard to verify. Is there a problem with uising verifiable sources? Sin's entire letter is published by the Archdiocese, who can be considered a reliable source. Ratzinger's statement was widely reported and the official document is also available on line. I just don't get why two official statements need to be "balanced" with such obscure, unverifiable sources. But let's put Smith and Pennington aside for a moment. Can we get an explanation for the summary of the officIAl RC view?   Will Beback  talk  02:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Come on Will ... What do you want me to do summarize an entire book in detail ...."won't share the source" ... that's not fair not even close. I've explained the general view of the book and I've summarized it ... do you expect me to type it all out.

These issues are being conflated here: What do we have so far: Two negative comments about TM from the Catholic Church. They are in place in the article. They are also relatively old- 20 years old. They represent the official, at that time, position, of the church. They do not represent what Catholics are doing in their churches nor do they represent other religions. How do we present that or are you suggesting not presenting it at all.How obscure is Sin's statement or the Vatican document statement to anyone not Catholic; two statements twenty years old. You use the numbers in libraries as a test of notability but you don't apply that test across the board, which by the way I agree with. Thing is you won't apply the openness to the other side of the coin, the positive side of TM and the church. How do you plan to create neutrality in that subsection? I'm out of discussion points.(olive (talk) 02:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

What does age have to do with it? Do we think that the RC position has changed now that Ratzinger is no longer head of the council on theology and is the head of the whole church? As for primincne of a view, how do you propose we judge them? And again, why did you summarize the Sin and Ratzinger comments the way you did? For Ratxinger, not only do we have the document, but we also have third-party reports on it and a press conference. It'd probably be best to use those relatively "secondary" sources as our guide to the key phrases in the text, which is why I suggested quoting the "dangers and errors" line. How did you decide that "syncretism" was the key point instead?   Will Beback  talk  17:16, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I could conjecture on the pope's position but I won't since I can't use it, and it would be OR. In fact how alternative movements such as TM and NAR (New Age religions )are viewed changes signicantly with time. As an extreme example Lutheranism was once a new religion. That a document is 25 years old is relevent to the context of the document.

We are discussing in circles. I noted earlier that the Malnak document is a primary source and that there were good secondary sources, and that Wikipedia suggests secondary sources are preferable. That comment was received, in shall we say, a less than positive light. I rewrote the Malnak subsection including some info from those secondary sources but nothing came of that exercise. In rewriting the reception section if had I made only a short reference to the Malnak primary document and then referenced the secondary sources as Wikipedia suggest would be appropriate, I wonder what would have happened. In writing the Sin/Vatican sections I attempted to summarize the entire documents. Primary sources .... Yes indeed. What might have been the response to me using secondary sources? The original Reception section used the primary sources. I stayed quite close to that to rewrite, again , to attempt to compromise, collaborate put something together that everyone could agree on.

The overarching concern with Eastern meditation methods and Christianity as stated in the Vatican document is that the two become mixed together "syncretism". I attempted to summarize the document. There was no "instead". I was simple re writing a subsection trying to make it work.

Actually, I have very little else to say, here . I will not agree to putting anything else into this article at any point without some agreed upon method for determining what is significant. We need to agree on a consistent way of dealing with information. If we are using secondary sources as is my preference since I like to stick closely to policy/guidelines we'd better be consistent. My rewrite was done in good faith as an attempt to create a space for inclusion of many of the topics that have come up for discussion. That that rewrite is now treated as if I am attempting to push some POV is unfortunate. I will be applying for Formal Mediation in a day or two. Perhaps some outside help can help us through this.(olive (talk) 20:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

There are ample policies and guidelines that establish methods for deciding what to include in an article. WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV are the main ones. If we stick to discussing individual edits then progress can be made. Going in circles isn't helpful, so let's avoid that. Let's try to find an agreement on the issue we're discussing. Right now, we're working figuring out how to add the Ratzinger/Vatican statement to the article. That's been the topic since March 12 - see #Deletion. As for that age of that statement, readers can make up their own minds if we simply include the date.   Will Beback  talk  22:39, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. We don't need to come up with an agreement on policies; Wikipedia already has ample policies. Will's proposed language is simple, straightforward, accurate, neutral and appropriately weighted. Olive's alternative does not accurately characterize the Sin and Ratzinger comments, and gives undue weight to Pennington and Smith. The information should go in as Will has proposed. Fladrif (talk) 23:00, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I restate that I am in favor of mediation. All the editors on the page have a bias. This is obvious because we can rarely agree on content or even interpretation of Wiki policies or a agree on a set of procedures for discussion and insertion/deletion of copy. A mediator would save us all a lot of time and effort. I support Olives application for mediation.--Kbob (talk) 12:48, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The archiving bot is sending the older discussions to Talk:Transcendental_Meditation/19 rather than to Talk:Transcendental_Meditation/Archive_19, and it doesn't show up in the the Archive List or in the Archive Index at the top of the page. How does this get fixed?Fladrif (talk) 15:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for catching that. I've moved the already created archives and I think I've fixed the bot.   Will Beback  talk  17:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is fascinating, but I'm at a loss to decide if it goes better in this article, the MMY article, the NLP article or somewhere else. I'm inclined to say here, since this is supposed to be about TM and the instruction in it, so MMY banning the teaching of TM in the UK would seem to belong here. It is definitely notable.

In 2004 Maharishi Mahesh Yogi directed his followers at the Maharishi village, complete with golden meditation dome, at Skelmersdale, Lancashire to meditate with the aim of influencing the British electorate into overturning the Labour government. The day after Tony Blair's Labour Party won reelection in May 2005 despite these efforts, the Maharishi ordered that all instruction in TM cease in the UK. ^[1][2] The ban was lifted in August 2007, two months after Blair resigned as Prime Minister. ^[3]

Where should we put it?Fladrif (talk) 19:15, 26 March 2009 (UTC) One more detail. Fladrif (talk) 19:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This may be interesting, but notable is another issue. As I said to Will, until we can decide on some standard for what is significant or notable, I don't agree to put anything else into this article. I don't intend to make this discussion difficult but i also feel we are wasting our time talking in circles since we have no baseline of agreement on standards for this article.(olive (talk) 20:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Then discussion is not merely difficult; its pointless. Fladrif (talk) 20:46, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest mediation. We then have a neutral party assisting us through some of the difficulties we've encountered, and so we can hopefully establish some baseline consistent standards for editing here(olive (talk) 20:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

But you have at least two neutral parties already. Me and WillBeback. A huge part of the problem here is your misperception that neutral parties are hostile to you and to the subject-matter of the article. Fladrif (talk) 21:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Being noted in prominent, mainstream newspapers is a good indication of notability. The fact that it had an impact on the teaching of TM in a large country is another indicator of notability. The material is well-sourced and neutrally presented. I can't see any reason not to add it to the article, and I don't see any policy-based reason given here to omit it either.   Will Beback  talk  21:03, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The addition is not worded in a neutral manner. Its notability has not been established.

Mediation provides a neutral party. If you were truly neutral you would consider the opinion of another editor here when she asks for a simple discussion to establish consistency instead of pushing through this change at this point in the discussion. I am asking fot a freeze on this article until we can come to some agreement. Neutral editors would honour that. You aren't either of you .

This is inconsistent with your comment about Allen Green. Green appears in a prominent Canadian newspaper. A newspaper that comes out of the provincial capital is a notable newspaper in Canada, but I believe you said this wasn't notable. I guess I don't see that we have any consistency here. I have asked repeatedly that we set a standard. Looks very much like if I do it its not right, but if you two do it is. Interesting dilemma. If you add this to the article you do it without a real consensus. I note Will's comment on the COINB "So if there are, for example, five "pro" editors and two "anti" editors, the "pro" editors can't claim consensus as an excuse for violating NPOV, even if talk page discussions show a clear preference for one version over another." You both believe you are neutral, I don't believe you are , and your addition of this information while innocuous indicates a clear and deliberate attempt to override what ever I have to say or suggest as has been the case through out all of these discussions . Yet Fladrif has refused to be available for mediation . That is his prerogative. Yet, don't try and tell me that either of you cares about the neutrality of this article above what you believe is neutral. If you make this addition at this time you risk an edit war.(olive (talk) 21:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

"Its notability has not been established." Huh? Can you explain, especially what you mean by "notability" and "established".

Also, for everyone here, I think this discussion (and all discussions on this talk page) would benefit by concentrating on content issues and avoiding discussions of editors. --Ronz (talk) 21:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Ronz. In addition to his questions, I'm not sure how the presentation of the material is non-neutral. (FWIW, I'd edit out the "complete with golden meditation dome" which seems extraneous to the assertion but which might be suitable in a discussion of the village.)   Will Beback  talk  22:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've got no problem with that change to the proposed language. Fladrif (talk) 22:18, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah right! Did anybody call Rracecarr.(olive (talk) 22:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Oh and we should be discussing the edits and not the editors ... stick around Ronz and see how that goes... and maybe check the discussion and the archives.(olive (talk) 22:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

You have constantly stated that editors - me especially it seems - are "attacking" you personally yet every-time someone here wants to include something that TM Limited dislikes you make personal attacks on them - see above. As to your most recent comment above, well, Will has been especially patient with you and has always shown neutrality.

This is starting to look "silly". 2 I will repeat, this obvious intellectually dishonesty is reflecting VERY badly on the academic credentials of MUM and it's academic staff in my opinion. And any future perspective students would be wise to make notes - again in my opinion.The7thdr (talk) 22:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any more discussion of the proposal. If there's no objection to it based on policies then it should be added.   Will Beback  talk  23:00, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There has been no substantive objection based on any Wiki Policy. I put it in the article with your changes.Fladrif (talk) 23:06, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is a collaborative environment. The successful efforts to isolate an editor here are a poor reflection of that environment. You are ignoring a legitimate request. And you are interpreting policy to suit your needs and that interpretation is not consistent. The edit, except for its language may or may not be the concern. I ask again that we define what and how you determine significant, notable not just here but in other places in the article. (olive (talk) 23:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Why was well-sourced and neutrally-presented material deleted from the article? [2] What policy basis was there?   Will Beback  talk  23:41, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, I do not agree with the edit. It is not neutrally worded ... that's WP: NPOV. There was no discussion on its placement... and frankly in my opinion it was forced in despite requests for discussion to establish terms for editing ... so you will be able, I'm sure to override my deletion but I do have right to refuse the edit by removing it.(olive (talk) 00:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

"I don't agree" is not a policy reason. You've been asked repeatedly to point out what isn't neutral so it can be fixed if necessary. The placement issue is not a reason for outright deletion - it's a reason to move it to a different section. Again, please either suggest a correction or restore the material.   Will Beback  talk  00:06, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For myself I don't think the edit that Fladif contributed is relevant to the article on Transcendental Meditation. I think it would be more appropriate to appear in the article on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. However I think it is notable to comment on the fact that TM was not taught in England for those two years in the TM Article due to the organisation that teaches it not agreeing with the policies of Tony Blair...I'm not sure the reception section is the place for it though...maybe history? The part about Maharishi asking his followers to meditate so Tony would not be re-elected is not so relevant to the TM article...more so to the article about Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, or the Natural Law Party...--Uncreated (talk) 04:14, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We have quite a bit in the article about TM being used to affect physiology, but we don't have anything about its use to affect political elections. So that and the suspension of TM training both appear relevant to this article. It might also be relevant to those other two articles, but if we're going to describe one set of affects of the meditation then I don't see why we wouldn't include this one as well.   Will Beback  talk  04:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Will, can you point me to the bit in the sited articles where it talks about TM being used to influence the elections in Britain.--Uncreated (talk) 05:16, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I misunderstood:

• At the same time he ordered his followers ... to beam peace-loving thoughts to the British electorate with the aim of overtuning the Labour government. [3]

I haven't had a chance to investigate this further. Isn't this along the lines of meditating to reduce crime and warfar - the Maharishi Effect? Or is it something different?   Will Beback  talk  05:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know TM does not in any way, shape or form involve "beaming peace loving thoughts". To be honest I am unsure what that sentence means...I could guess but it would be OR from my side.--Uncreated (talk) 06:17, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's exactly what it is. The leaders in village lamented that they only had about 400 people, and the reason the Maharishi's plan didn't work was that they needed twice that number meditating for TME to influence the election. ^[4] Fladrif (talk) 13:16, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fladrif it doesn't mention that the effect would be created through Transcendental Meditation...I would guess the article is probably referring to the TM-Sidhi program and not Transcendental Meditation, but that would be OR from myside. --Uncreated (talk) 19:58, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am in favor of mediation. All the editors on the page have a bias. This is obvious because we can rarely agree on content or even interpretation of Wiki policies or a agree on a set of procedures for discussion and decision making. There is alot of emotion here, that means editors are not neutral. A mediator would save us all a lot of time and effort. I support Olives application for mediation.--Kbob (talk) 12:48, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

If you can't even agree on Wiki Policies, then you have no business editing here. And there is no reason, based on the behavior of the TM-connected editors here toward Will, to think that the involvement of yet another impartial Admin will have any effect whatsoever. There is consensus among neutral editors to include this material. It is reliably sourced, neutrally presented, relevant and notable. No subtantive objection whatsoever has been raised to it; no Wiki policy has been cited why it should not be included. Olive simply announces that she won't agree to anything and promises an edit war if anyone crosses her. What's next - holding her breath til she turns blue and passes out? If that isn't reason for her to be blocked, I don't know what is. Fladrif (talk) 13:06, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Commnets: We have on this page, an implied method, that has been adopted because this is a contentious article, of proceeding slowly to make changes into the article. Kbob asked for permission to add two words, and I suggested a couple of days on a consensus-reached edit before saying I would remove the edit in question. Last night an edit was added so quickly into this article that all editors did not have time to see or comment on the edit, and although I was here, the edit was again added so quickly I didn't have time to even check the sources . The original edit was non neutral. I noted, that in my mind it violated NPOV. I notice there have been changes to it. Its only fair, and speaks of neutrality to give all editors active on this article time to check and think about an edit. This wasn't done. Moreover, when I mentioned (no, not threatened,) the possibility of an edit war if this edit was added, miraculously the calvary showed up. Its perfectly fine in my mind to notify editors of a pending change in an article, but it is also only fair to give all editors with an interest in a contentious article time to comment, possibly a couple of days. People have lives and jobs outside of Wikipedia after all and aren't always available. Yesterdays edit was forced into this article because there was no time given for all editors to comment, and my concerns and comments were ignored.

I will mention that constant references of editors in terms of NPOV, COI and other highly negative personal comments are disruptive and if they continue I will ask for admin assistance.

Suggestions: I have had the time now to look at the sources Fladrif links to. They are highly misinformed in many ways but reliable, verifiable sources and the fact that there were several newspapers in the UK carrying this story would possibly makes the edits notable in a more general sense. Adding them to the reception section seems misplaced since they refer to the Maharishi Effect. I would suggest adding a short comment on the Maharishi effect as a lead into this edit, and then adding the edit. Followers, should be in quotes.

I am adding a draft version of an edit describing the Maharishi effect and then a version of the material on the UK elections . I'm also adding Fladrif's edit. I'm not attached to either my or Fladrif's version.

I would suggest that Fladrif remove his edit for now until we can reach agreement, which shouldn't be difficult. I am attempting to limit myself to a one revert rule so will not make another revert.(olive (talk) 15:54, 27 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Version1

The Maharishi Effect is described as a positive influence created by 1% of a population practicing the TM technique, and the square root of 1% practicing the Yogic flying technique. In 2004, Mharishi Mahesh Yogi withdrew teaching of Transcendental Mediation from the UK after efforts of Yogic Fliers in Skarmsdale, England to influence the election failed. In 2007, two months after Tony Blair,the British Prime Minister who was seen by Maharishi as responsible for England’s war-like position, resigned, the teaching of TM in the UK resumed.

Version2

The Maharishi Effect is described as a positive influence created by 1% of a population practicing the TM technique, and the square root of 1% practicing the Yogic flying technique. In 2004 Maharishi Mahesh Yogi directed his followers at the Maharishi village at Skelmersdale, Lancashire to meditate with the aim of influencing the British electorate into overturning the Labour government. The day after Tony Blair's Labour Party won reelection in May 2005 despite these efforts, the Maharishi ordered that all instruction in TM cease in the UK. ^[5][6] The ban was lifted in August 2007, two months after Blair resigned as Prime Minister. ^[7]

(olive (talk) 15:54, 27 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

search on google for "TM square root 1 percent population" to get 27,000 hits. i checked the first five pages. only ONE link was something to do with mathematics, not TM Lkcl (talk) 21:19, 6 April 2009 (UTC).[reply]

I really am trying to stay out of this but - the main point of the references is nothing to do with the M effect - it is the fact that TM Limited's CEO - or whatever title you want to give him - officially "banned" the Teaching of TM during a number of years because a political party he did not agree with - and who would blame him as things turned out - won an election. There is no need here to "colour" this part with the "M effect".

Apart from the fact that it is not the "thrust" of what is being said here i have seen this "tactic" used in this article previously. It goes something like this:

1 An editor introduces something that MUM or TM marketing is "uncomfortable" with.

2 "They" then spend much time arguing that it is not "notable" (a favorite) not reliably sourced or "not part of this article

3 it becomes impossible to sustain this argument in the light of rational discourse and the item is included.

4 MUM or TM marketing make a suggestion; it is actually linked to the M Effect", Yogic Flying, Walking through walls, etc and this should be briefly mentioned.

5 In the interests of "keeping the peace" none faculty staff of MUM, TM marketing, etc agree.

6 Things go silent. Editors move on. Other subjects are examined.

7 Members of MUM who could just as easily discuss this over lunch in the MUM canteen. Start a discussion stating that because it has some mention of M Effect, Bunny Hopping or whatever, it belongs in the back-end of TM WIKI they have created that regarding Yogic Flying, etc.

8 off it goes.

This can be found repeatedly through the history of this article. Indeed, if one goes back to this time one will see this article - and all but two editors agreed - that this article was considered to be about the TM "movement" not the mediative practice alone. The7thdr (talk) 21:07, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to ask that the addition by Fladriff be removed as the discussion on the topic was not completed. As you know, there has been a common practice on this page to review additions and their wording, here on the discussion page before making changes to the article. This procedure was not followed and so it would be good if it was removed while the discussion is continued.--Kbob (talk) 21:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No. The process was followed. Not a single substantive objection was presented. The language I proposed was simple, straightforward, accurate, perfectly sourced, impartial, relevant and notable. Neither you nor olive nor Uncreated nor anyone else have advanced a single specific substantive objection. 7th is exactly right about the editing process in these articles. I am not going to permit this to turn into yet another Caucus Race. As for olive's "alternatives" I do have specific, substantive objections: (i) Why discuss TME and the theory of 1% if the population meditating vs SqRt of 1% yogic flying at this point? It's out of place, and unsourced. It might go elsewhere in the TM article, because TME is not exclusively a TM-Sidhi concept. But not here. (ii) her alternative #1 omits the relevant dates, all citations, and that the plan to influence the election was ordered by MMY. Fladrif (talk) 22:31, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

search on google for "TM square root 1 percent population" to get 27,000 hits. i checked the first five pages: only ONE link was something to do with mathematics, not TM. you should be able to find something in there, Fladrif, which satisfies the craving for sources. Lkcl (talk) 21:19, 6 April 2009 (UTC).[reply]

try this one, which, joy of joys, is the new york times. i'm sure that if you put a little effort in, you would find other sources which regurgitate this 1% and square root of 1% effect jobbie. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/us/22peace.html?_r=1&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/M/Meditation Lkcl (talk) 21:21, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Still trying to "stay out of this" but i have to agree with Fladrif and disagree with Kbob. There is no need for constant discussion of anything that the TM movement is uncomfortable with; as long as it is relevant, notable and reliably resourced. Fladifs edit is all of these. No one has yet provided a rational reason why it should not be included in its present form. Goodness, this is tiring sometimes. Can't the TM movement see what a negative light this is putting you and is throwing doubt on the academic honesty of your movements research and editing? I address this to no one editor,. Really, from the outside it is embarrassing and somewhat painful to read. The7thdr (talk) 23:22, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fladrif you have have failed so far to site sources showing how your addition is relevant to this article. I agree that something should be mentioned about TM not being taught in the United Kingdom for those two years...but the information that you have added "In 2004 Maharishi Mahesh Yogi directed his followers at the Maharishi village at Skelmersdale, Lancashire to meditate with the aim of influencing the British electorate into overturning the Labour government." Doesn't seem to have anything to do with Transcendental Meditation from the sources you have provided. Perhaps you could site the relevant sentence or paragraph from the sources you have provided.--Uncreated (talk) 00:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Uncreated, you are kidding aren't you? S/he hasn't cited resources to say its not relevant to the article? Perhaps you want him to cite a resource saying that this can be cited in WIKI? :-) "

"but the information that you have added "In 2004 Maharishi Mahesh Yogi directed his followers at the Maharishi village at Skelmersdale, Lancashire to meditate with the aim of influencing the British electorate into overturning the Labour government." Doesn't seem to have anything to do with Transcendental Meditation from the sources you have provided"

So, let me get this right, its ok to cite that the CEO of TM limited said that TM could not be taught in the UK but not why he made this decision. No context? No rational? Please. The7thdr (talk) 13:32, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The7thdr: the reasons were several - and you're not going to like them. 1) Tony Blair was a war-mongerer who was not in the slightest bit interested in stability or peace. having such a person as a Prime Minister was a seriously bad idea. 2) not quite in exactly these words, but close to it, Maharishi stated that if the UK population was so stupid as to vote in a war-mongerer, then they were not welcome to benefit from the stabilising effects of TM. 3) on the basis that evil tends to become more obvious when there is less stabilising to counteract it, Maharishi ordered everyone OUT of the country, or to get as fast as possible into Vaastu (spiritual-protecting) homes. 4) in this way, Maharishi surmised that the UK population would, thick as two xxxxing short planks as it was (overall - not all of it, obviously), be able to get through its stupid thick collective head that there was something desperately wrong with its leaders, much quicker and much more obviously than if the TM meditators were "accidentally" stabilising the country. 5) additionally, TM practitioners, by leaving the country, would not be subjected to quite so much stress. The7thdr: you should by now be going "oh. ah. um. err. i see." and perhaps now have a clearer idea of why it would be inappropriate to put such a description onto the page which describes the "Transcendental Meditation Technique" rather than describing "The History Of The Transcendental Meditation Movement", yes? Lkcl (talk) 21:31, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi 7th please do not remove this page break . It is an accepted way of making a long thread easier to follow and comment on...for other editors. Thanks (olive (talk) 14:43, 28 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Adding a page break for a long thread so its easier to follow the most recent posts(olive (talk) 11:40, 28 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Two comments:

• As I said above I'd like to move Fladirf's recent addition into the origin section since it isn't about reception to the technique, but is more an aspect of history.

• The origins section needs to be edited slightly to make a connection between what is there now and this new edit.

• And Uncreated makes a good point . In this article on TM the edit should probably be a reference more about the fact that this was about the Tm technique no longer being taught in England... That should be a slight, simple shift to make...

Comments clarifying past posts:

• This is very much about the Maharishi Effect. The Maharishi Effect was first researched on the TM technique , but very quickly that research moved to The TM Sidhi program and the TM technique was no longer researched. The number referenced in the sources Fladrif supplies, 800 as the square root of 1% of the English population and the 400 practitioners who actually where involved in the program to change the election clearly refers to the Maharishi Effect.The words Maharishi Effect is also directly mentioned in at least one source.

• As an aside: neither the TM technique nor the TM Sidhi program includes any kind of "thought beaming". TM technique depends on an absence if thought. This is one of many inaccuracies in these sources.(olive (talk) 12:02, 28 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

It is not about the M Effect, it is about the fact that the teaching of TM was banned in a major world power - nothing to do with bunny hoping on your bottom or walking through walls. Once you have stated that TM teaching was banned by the companies CEO it is obviously necessary to explain what brought this decision about - provided there is a reason. In this case it is because the CEO of TM limited at that time (or whatever title you would like to give him) wanted his members to influence the course of an election in a major "western" economic and military power at that time - which all of the bunny hopping in the world seems to have been unable to do. Whether a few years later TM Bunny Hopping and walking through walls is still researched by the movement is unimportant. It is equally, unimportant whether one news source wants to describe the M Effect as "hopping for peace" or "beaming thoughts". The Guardian, the Times and the Telegraph are not academic journals who need to clarify in detail every "new age belief"

I still have not seen a reason given either why this should be removed, moved to the back-end of WIKI or it's wording altered. What I am starting to see however is attempts at un-necessary synthesis and original research The7thdr (talk) 13:48, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In fact the sources reference several topics ... how those sources are used here is dependent on what is selected from those sources. The sources are about the Maharishi Effect, the banning of TM and the action by Maharishi . If you want the focus to be about Maharishi this needs to go to the MMY article. If on TM here.

• In fact moving Faldrif's edit moves the edit to the top of the article.
• We absolutely need to know as editors what is incorrect and what isn't whether we actually use the material or not ... and frankly any journalist worth his or salt needs to be accurate ... .
• There is no policy that says if something is not an academic journal something can be incorrect.
• Nothing I am suggesting is either synthesis or OR.(olive (talk) 15:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

"Nothing I am suggesting is either synthesis or original research" Yes you are, the articles all say that it is the TM that is being discussed - for it was the teaching of TM that was banned. Stating it is now about TM bunny hopping - unless you can cite resources and they are relevant - is original research. Equally, perhaps the standard of journalism in the USA is poor (where all sorts of new age "nonsense" is given creditability) but things are different here in Europe (if you are not familiar with the broadsheets being cited please go here:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/; http://www.guardian.co.uk/. For more please go to their relevant WIKI pages) but if you wish to discuss levels of professionalism in journalism than there are articles and boards within WIKI which would welcome it. You can continue down this line of argument as long as you want but it will make a bit of difference to the facts. However, you do make a very good point, there does seem to be a lot of confusion - out side of MUM-as to what is and is not the so called TM technique, the bunny hopping techniques, the empty your mind for world peace techniques, the peace palaces, etc. It makes a very good argument about re-integrating these into this article - we can split of some off some of the medical "research" to its own sub article to make roomperhaps. Right, seems that is the next thing we need to work on. The7thdr (talk) 15:21, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Add: Indeed, your own founder seems to be unable to make the distinction between what you deem as two different things. Going back to TM being banned in the UK your "Guru" said:

...the 95-year-old guru says there is no point continuing to waste the "beautiful nectar" of TM on a "scorpion" nation.

"The good effects of transcendental meditation - increased creativity and long life - should not be given to a dangerous country that is constantly busy destroying the world," said the maharishi, speaking at one his regular press conferences in the Netherlands. "TM is a gift from me to those who want to create peace and harmony in the world." ^[8]. Perhaps he needed lessons in reporting "accuracy" from MUM? :-) The7thdr (talk) 15:34, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PPs I wonder why he didn't ban it in the USA at that time also for similar reasons? The7thdr (talk) 15:37, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks 7th, I guess you don't understand what I'm saying and that may be my concern.

I would like to move this section from Reception to the Origin section since it is not about the reception of TM, and would like to integrate it into that section which might require a slight adjustment of words. I'll put up a version using Fladrif's version as closely as possible and other editors can see what they think.(olive (talk) 16:36, 28 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

I am confused as to how you feel this exists in the origin section, but will go along with for now while you produce an edit for agreement - again I cannot see what is wrong with the present edit - and explain. The7thdr (talk) 16:55, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Origin section is really a summarized version of the history,and this banning is now history... There's little wrong with the edit now, but in order for it to connect with what's in the article and more specifically reference what is in the Origin section i it may have top be adjusted somewhat.(olive (talk) 17:22, 28 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

7th. Would it be more appropriate given the discussion we are in the middle of, to suggest your addition and discuss it here rather than add it in without any input from any other editors You've added something without even discussion.(olive (talk) 20:09, 28 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Oh I see... Well I assume the gentleman's agreement we've had here no longer holds. If this edit is not reverted on principle, then we can all add, whatever we want, when we want, without discussion as 7th has just done(olive (talk) 20:23, 28 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

OK. 7th. I'm going to revert your change on principle because it think its important to protect the standard we've established for all editors on this page . I like what you did, but I can't support how you did it. I would think other editors will support your change so please wait for their comments to re add. Thanks.(olive (talk) 20:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Here is my proposed edit to the one 7thdr put in:

Teaching of Transcendental Meditation Temporarily stopped in United Kingdom

The day after Tony Blair's Labour Party won reelection in May 2005, the Maharishi ordered that all instruction in TM cease in the UK explaining, "The good effects of transcendental meditation - increased creativity and long life - should not be given to a dangerous country that is constantly busy destroying the world, [14][15] The teaching of Transcendental Meditation resumed in August 2007, two months after Blair resigned as Prime Minister. [16]

I have removed the first sentence due to the lack of relevance in my opinion to the article on Transcendental Meditation. Will, Fladrif would you be happy with this?--Uncreated (talk) 20:43, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The first sentence needs to stay in and is highly important. If the bouncers had been successful in altering the democratic process in a major "first world power" then the guru would not have banned TM training.

I see I can't revert, too many edits. So ... Unless other editors object the agreement we had to edit with discussion is now no longer in place. Well, lets see how that works for us.(olive (talk) 20:50, 28 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Olive seeing as you have spent the past two days editing without comment and agreement here that seems a little - as they say in this neck of the woods - "rich". But, if you are unhappy about my quote from the guru than I will of course remove it now and at once and will agree it shoudl not be altered till all editors are in agreement 80.2.41.26 (talk) 20:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will assume this IP is 7th from your statement. I haven't edited at all. I have been commenting here. Please check your statements for accuracy.(olive (talk) 21:13, 28 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

To confirm for future ref - yes it is :-) And Olive, please note the history over the past few days where you made a cosmetic change to the origins section - Just as I did - and also the constant removal of the TM/UK incident - without discussion. And all of this has jsut been in the past 2 days 80.2.41.26 (talk) 21:34, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

7th... I reverted once with discussion. I added a space... I am not editing into the article. Check your facts.(olive (talk) 21:41, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Removed with no discussion based on original research and synthesis; but this is starting to get like Ping Pong - don't you think? :-)

I changed the word 'these' to 'his' to help clarify the sentence. Even so it is awkwardly written and could be reworded. Having said that I have no other objections to what is written there and I like the addition that 7th made giving Maharishi's explanation for his actions. I also agree it belongs in the Origon/History section as it has nothing to do with public reception of TM. Good work 7th, Uncreated, Olive and Fladrif--Kbob (talk) 20:52, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that the section currently titled "Origin" deals with the whole history of TM. Is there any reason why it shouldn't be renamed "History"?   Will Beback  talk  22:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seems fine to me. Or maybe "Origins and History" since the two words have slightly different meanings, and this would cover all the bases.(olive (talk) 00:43, 31 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

The first section of "History" could be "Origins". Is there any way in which its origins are not part of its history?   Will Beback  talk  00:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, yes I think origin can be seen as part of history. I would tend to think of origins, though, as pertaining to sources, and to history as more sequential. My preference woud be to have an origins section inside the larger history section.(olive (talk) 01:09, 31 March 2009 (UTC))_[reply]

OK, I'll change the heading. The headings that really overlap would be "Origin" and "Beginnings". This article doens't realy deal with meditation techniques before Maharishi, but if we add such material then "origins" might be a good heading for it.   Will Beback  talk  01:13, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good job Will, I had been thinking about this change myself. Origins and History. I like it.--Kbob (talk) 03:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Adding some refs to bottom of page for possbile use in future discussions. ^{[9] [10] [11] [12]}

Suggestions:

• Transcendental Meditation Movement
• Transcendental Meditation Movement (history of)

this page, here, should be about the "Technique of Transcendental Meditation", and people should be gently or firmly shoved in the direction of the "history of" page for the discussion of the TM movement itself, the controversy surrounding it etc. etc. people have been trying to "cram" too much into this one page for a number of years, now, and it just doesn't work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lkcl (talk • contribs) 21:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's a good idea to split off some topics. The ones listed above and also the research section would seem to be good candidates.   Will Beback  talk  21:56, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree as well, it would be good to have another page about the Transcendental Meditation organisation and just have this page about the Transcendental Meditation technique. However I think having a section on the scientific research conducted on TM should remain in this article on the Transcendental Meditation technique.--Uncreated (talk) 22:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why do yout think the history should be split while the research should stay? The article is currently about 3200 words in length, of which the research section is about 1500 words and the history section is only 390 words. Especially with those other sections split off, the research section dominates the article. For a variety of reasons, that doesn't seem ideal to create balanced coverage of the topic.   Will Beback  talk  23:08, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the Transcendental Meditation Technique and the so called "Transcendental Meditation movement/organisation" to be very distinct from one another. The practice of the technique does not require any involvement with the "Transcendental Meditation movement/organisation". At the moment we have a lot of information about the "Transcendental Meditation movement/organisation" in the article just not in the history section but also in the reception section and lawsuits section. In fact the history section deals primarily with the history of the organisation and not the technique itself. The research section concerns the research conducted on Transcendental meditation which I would think would be highly relevant to the article...but it is quite long, maybe it could be more concise.--Uncreated (talk) 00:17, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree strongly. The "decision" that this article is about the "TM technique" is not something that was arrived at by true consensus. It was pushed by the MUM faculty editors here, and the distinction between the "TM technique" and the "TM orgainization" is taken straight from the MUM style book per one of TimidGuy's posts here. If this article was about the "TM technique" alone it would be about one paragraph long. It is not, and should not be limited in that way just because the TM organization wants it marketed like that. This is not an advertising venue for TM; its supposed to be any encyclopedia. There is a pattern here that anything the TM organization is uncomfortable with is resisted to the last breath of the TM-related editors, and then - if that fails - gets sliced off and hidden in a different article. The article should be about both the technique and the organization that teaches it, including all reliably-sourced information pro, con, and neutral. Fladrif (talk) 14:05, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly a compromise is to have one or two studies here in the different categories researched and then link to a page on the studies. There are at least 350 peer reviewed studies on the technique and that number is growing so a separate article would be appropriate. In fact TM in the schools is growing hugely as well... so that may also be another page.(olive (talk) 00:17, 7 April 2009 (UTC))[reply]

I odn't quite understand Uncreated's assertion that the movement and the technique are very distinct. The movement created the technique and is responsible for teaching it. I can't support splitting off other materials unless the overly-large research section is split off as well.   Will Beback  talk  00:25, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding Will is that the TM technique was revived by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and he taught people how to teach the technique who were called "Teachers of Transcendental Meditation". It would be good to say something about Maharishi in the article and something about Teachers of Transcendental meditation. However I think there should be a seperate article for the so called "TM organisation/movement". I think olives suggestion in regards to the research is a good one.--Uncreated (talk) 01:30, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If these topics are split off then summaries will still be left, per WP:SUMMARY. That would cover Olvie's suggestion, which appears to call for leaving some material on the studies. Likewise, some history should be left. Simply picking one study or another would not be as good as summarizing the research as a whole.   Will Beback  talk  01:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The research because of the extent of it and in terms of weight might have to have sections and sub sections to give an accurate picture of each area researched.(olive (talk) 02:57, 7 April 2009 (UTC))[reply]

That's a great reason to split it off into a separate article, where it can be treated in depth. There's no need to go into such detail in this article, which is properly an overview. It'd be hard to say that the scientific research, apparently mostly conducted by practitioners, is more important than the history or practice sections.   Will Beback  talk  03:38, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with the research section is not that it is so long that it needs to be split off. The problem is that it is simply too long, and does not comply with WP:MEDRS or WP:Weight. It consists largely of a list of cherry-picked studies, the results of which are characterized, or in some cases mischaracterized. According to the two meta-studies cited, you can count on the fingers of one hand the studies which are (i) sufficiently documented to even be reasonably reviewed by independent third parties; and (ii) are reasonably "good" in terms of methodology. The first concludes that no reliable conclusions can be drawn from the research; the second indicates that only three of the TM studies can be categorized as "good", and that these do show a small statisticaly-significant reduction in hypertension. I do not think that TM-related research merits a separate article.

It seems to me that the Research section should be much, much shorter - about one or two paragraphs long at most, something along the lines of : The TM organization, in part with funding from the NIH, has sponsored hundreds of studies of the medical effects of TM. These have included examinations of hypertension ^fn, ______,^fn _____ ^fn...(list all of the symptoms/effects studied). The TM organization claims that these studies show..... Some of these studies have been criticized for _________^fn. Two recent meta-analyses of TM-related medical research conclude ...^Fn. Fladrif (talk) 13:56, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]