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Respectfully suggest that because Magma Taishi was never known in English as Ambassador Magma, it makes no sense to force Space Giants to be Ambassador Magma. In English, the show was most widely known as Space Giants, this is an English-language wiki, therefore Space Giants is the appropriate name of this article. The Hokkaido Crow 29 June 2005 06:57 (UTC)

With all due respect, whether you know the show as Ambassador Magma, The Space Giants, Space Avenger, Monsters from Outer Space, etc., there's no denying that the character Ambassador Magma at least had a history.

One can always learn about The Space Giants through Ambassador Magma, just as one can learn about, say, Johnny Sokko and his Flying Robot through Giant Robo or Battle of the Planets through Gatchaman. Ryuuseipro

Japanese series with name changes are in an unusual position because due to the way fans use original sources, titles and characters are often more widely known by their non-American names in America than by their American names (cf. Usagi_Tsukino). Google shows 862 hits for "Ambassador Magma" and 853 for "Space Giants" (including several false hits). Ken Arromdee 18:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I will explain some of the changes I made in the section formerly called "Anti-Japanese sentiment." While I don't dispute that anti-Japanese sentiment and racism has existed in various forms, particularly in the US, I did not find that the information in the paragraph conclusively demonstrated this. The paragraph really describes the practice of adding familiar characters to increase the appeal in the target market, which happens on both sides of the Atlantic and Pacific. Consumers simply want characters and settings that they can identify with. That is an important thing to describe, but it does not necessarily equate to racism or anti-Japanese sentiments. Here are some other things I felt it necessary to change:

• Removed language regarding World War 2. While it is probably true that lingering tensions remained at this time, nothing in the paragraph supported this assumption.
• We cannot say that Americanization died down after the popularity of Godzilla and then demonstrate instances of Americanization still going strong after Godzilla. That doesn't make sense.
• The movies were really Westernized, not just Americanized. This specific paragraph mentioned attempts to penetrate Australian markets as well as North American markets (which presumably still include Canada and Mexico as of this writing). Unmentioned in this article were also attempts to penetrate Europe and Latin America.
• It is just not realistic to say that studios consider east Asian actors non-bankable. Studios have been making a ton of money in martial-arts and fantasy films since the 1970's, for example.
• Removed Perry Mason reference as it is superfluous to this article and is found in the relevant linked article.

All in all it's a good article and I enjoyed reading it.

Your revised version of my article is commendable. Except for one thing:

• "This specific paragraph mentioned attempts to penetrate Australian markets as well as North American markets (which presumably still include Canada and Mexico as of this writing)."

That was for Ultraman. For Ultraman: Towards the Future, Tsuburaya Productions was not trying to penetrate the Australian market, they were essentially trying to penetrate the North American market by way of Australia. Ultraman was already very popular Down Under. Ryuuseipro

Aside from the racism and Americanization issues mentioned earlier on the discussion page, there is also a serious problem with the article concerning NPOV in the section "Realism" and all of the sections after it until the end of the article. The author(s) are obviously sympathizing with the Tokusatsu creators way too much, labeling America as cynical and acting like these movies were bullied out of the limelight in the United States. The movies are well known among most of the population, and they are well liked, if for different reasons. With all due respect, you can't pretend a film is up there with Citizen Kane when it primarily relies on special effects and the special effects aren't too good. The Tokusatsu films are an important part of cinematic history, but they aren't any messiah.--67.184.163.248 23:48, 10 September 2005 (UTC)Ikiroid[reply]

Aside from the racism and Americanization issues mentioned earlier on the discussion page, there is also a serious problem with the article concerning NPOV in the section "Realism" and all of the sections after it until the end of the article.

Well, why don't you do something about it? You know, you can edit it yourself. I can't be the only one working on this article (and yes, I did the article you criticized, which another person here thoughtfully edited for me). Let's put our heads together.--Ryuuseipro 10:32pm, 11 November 2005

Then again, the BBC's Doctor Who successfully scared children for over 20 years with similar special effects. Somebody who knows more than I do might want to tie in tokusatsu to its worldwide legacy? Lisa Paul 08:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with 67.184.163.248. The section "Perception of Tokusatsu in America" contains a lot of criticism of said perception instead of merely describing it, and the criticism is not attributed to anyone but instead stated as if it were absolutely right and the popular perception wrong. I think it would be better if this section were split in half, one describing what the popular peception is (was?) and then the counter-reaction to it. Besides, arguing who's right or wrong about the assessment of the quality (which is higly subjective) of some film type is not interesting in a reference work such as an encyclopedia. What one would rather read is a description of each POV, the reasons behind them and when and where and by whom such POV is held. The presentation (including emphasis) should also be organized accordingly.

Also, some of the language is not just POV, but rather unencyclopedic. "However, American fans like August Ragone and reporter Steve Ryfle have enlightened a skeptical media on this subject countless times, and people were profounded." Excuse me? Aside from the peculiar verbing of "profound", this is way too profuse for an encyclopedia :-) "enlightened" and "countless times" are both out, and so is "profounded" whether it's supposed to be "enlightened", "bewildered", "blown out of water" or whatever. Also wording like "Yes, some of these superheroes are altruistic, like" is not good, because it has "I'm trying to sell you this point and don't have enough convincing facts so I'm trying to make you a believer by speaking persuasively" written all over it. The normal policy is to describe the facts (including each POV if there are many, as there seem to be here) and let the reader make his own conclusions without preaching. 130.233.22.111 07:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While I'm going to steer clear of much of the controversy regarding this page, I will suggest omitting the use of exclamation marks. If this is to have the proper tone for a reference piece, then some of the enthusiasm implied within just doesn't work.

or even tokusatsu kantoku (特撮監督), which is Japanese for, appropriately enough, "special effects director"!

We're here to inform people of the concept, not convince them of its viability as a medium. Wikipedia is not an advertising medium - it is intended to be impartial and factual. Please always keep that in mind.

So now I return to adding the last touches (for tonight) on the Karaoke Revolution song list, in which the Japanese "anime songs" compilation inexplicably includes tokusatsu themes (and before anyone goes gallivanting off to blame the Americans, it was Konami who perpetrated that themselves). ^_^

Cheers!

Miwa 08:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

1. In-line citations please, first of all.
2. Please eliminate weasel words. Stuff like One of the things that Japanese live-action fantasy is usually criticized for by non-fans in America is not sourced. Who is saying this? All of this should be sourced.
3. Fandom is not relevent here. It appears that some fan films are notable, but a major part of the "criticism" and the fandom sections appear to be pits so people can bash tokusatsu.
4. Tone is an issue here. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia here to report facts, without any loaded language. "Sadly, the jargon suitmation is mostly extinct today" is not necessary. Just state that it's no longer used.

This article has six templates. I'd like to get it down to at least three. Hbdragon88 06:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I almost destroyed the newly-renamed "United Sates view" because all it looks like is a pit of whiny complaints about Super Sentai vs. Power Rangers. Hbdragon88 07:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really tempted to add something along the lines of the following to the page...

User:Schneelocke/Tag overload

-- Schnee (cheeks clone) 22:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge, the most sensible so far, although speedy deletion probably wouldn't be out of place. The only reason to have this as a separate page is as a peculiar kind of fancruft as one-upmanship.FasterPussycatWooHoo 12:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merging with Special effects is essentially a bad idea. Tokusatsu is the word specifically used to describe the Japanese suitmation or superhero shows. This article needs clean-up, but definitely not merging.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What on earth makes you the authority?FasterPussycatWooHoo 14:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not an authority, but I am part of a WikiProject dedicated to this genre. Tokusatsu means special effects, but it is something entirely unique.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And the Japanese Wikipedia has a different article on what we consider to be special effects at ja:SFX and an article on tokusatsu at ja:特撮. In fact, every Wikipedia that has an article on tokusatsu has a separate article on special effects, the former referring to shows like Kamen Rider and Power Rangers and the latter to the techniques used within them.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He's not an authority, but he does seem to know far more than you do about this topic. Tokusatsu, despite being a translation of "special effects", does not mean the same thing. Tokusatsu is an incredibly broad topic with a large ammount of significant material available — one of the most popular genres of entertainment in Japan cannot be considered a suptopic of a broad area like special effects. Under no circumstances can this be merged.--SB | T 23:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tokusatsu is a genre; special effects are the techniques. Compare the relationship between anime and animation. Honestly, there is no basis for a merge. --Keitei (talk) 02:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Ryulong, Sean, and Keitei. Tokusatsu is its own genre, with its own content. Yes, it is named after the techniques used in its production, but that doesn't make it synonymous with those techniques. jgp ^T_C 02:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The 'arguments' above consist of reiteration. I also disagree that there are significant differences between anime and animation; certainly the latter covers a far wider stylistic range and anime could be described as a subset derived from the development of particular forms of mass production (which are also found in animation from other countries, whether the USA, Korea, or anywhere else making significant amounts for the mass market); this definition would exclude Miyazaki (who indeed excludes himself, though no doubt his western fans who see their devotion to his work as demonstrating what they like to see as an otaku-like interest in anime wouldn't want to know this).

Likewise men in monster suits and miniature work are hardly unique to a particular national tradition. Yes, the Ultraman tradition represents as much of a speciality as Marvel/DC superheroes, and certainly deserves a specific article, but this is not the same as Tokusatu. Ergo, Tokusatu is not a genre but a particular usage of particular sets of special effects.

Sean Black should not be so quick to assume what people do and don't know about; my original comment may have been sharp but was in response to an I-will-not-be-questioned tone, and I certainly know enough to contribute to this article. However, I strongly disagree with the classification and crufty tone and thus won't for now.

Usage on the Japanese wikipedia does not have any bearing. The large number of separate articles on Japan-related topics that could well be included under the more general headings is definitely a fan-driven form of exceptionalism.FasterPussycatWooHoo 12:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why won't you listen to us that "tokusatsu" and "special effects" are two different things? Tokusatsu is the name given to television shows like Ultraman, Super Sentai, Kamen Rider, and Power Rangers, etc. Special effects are the techniques that are used to portray the storylines within the series such as Ultraman, Super Sentai, Kamen Rider, Power Rangers, etc. Tokusatsu is a tradition as a style and as a genre. Tokusatsu is to live-action as anime is to animation.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, Tokusatsu is the term for Japanese live action productions, not special effects as a technical term. If your viewpoint is like that, I can only conclude that you translated the term to literally. Its a genre, and does not mean what you consider Special Effects. Floria L 22:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm listening, but not hearing any argument that makes sense. If you read my comments, you will see that I agree with Ryulong that Ultraman, Super Sentai, Kamen Rider, Power Rangers etc. form a (narrow) genre, with people in tight suits wearing funny masks or mask/helmet combinations, certain kinds of poses, certain kinds of futuristic military uniforms, etc. However, Godzilla is also tokusatu; this is quite a different genre.

Even worse for the theory, a movie like Casshern, if you've heard of it, a bad movie with some great effects and good scenes but not for children, is also commonly listed as tokusatu or tokusatu plus live action. Casshern is all live action plus CG. In the same search I find a page where a Japanese fan lists Tarkovsky's very serious SF movies in the list of tokusatu movies he likes. I think you are confused about the meaning of tokusatu because New Type's sister magazine mainly covers the Ultraman genre; at least, that's nearly always on the cover.

The Japanese WP article on Ultraman calls him one of Japan's giant metamorphic heroes or giant body-changing heroes, which seems reasonable as a genre name.

Every time the word tokusatu is used in that article, it simply means special effects. Anyway, that is not really relevant since this is the english-language wikipedia.FasterPussycatWooHoo 13:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But when the Japanese word "tokusatsu" is used in every language including English, it refers to these shows. These shows are not a "narrow" genre. Category:Tokusatsu will disagree with you. And there are other shows that are not for children, but are considered tokusatsu, and it utilizes a good amount of CG and live action. This would be GARO, additionally, Lion-Maru G, which uses a lot of South Park-like comedic schticks, is also tokusatsu not for children. The name used for the "narrow" genre of shows about "people in tight suits wearing funny masks or mask/helmet combinations, certain kinds of poses, certain kinds of futuristic military uniforms" and Godzilla are all considered tokusatsu.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 21:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again. Your reply is not relevant to any of my earlier comments. You have either not read them or didn't understand them. If you don't understand, you could always ask instead of trying to give orders. Your reply is also incomprehensible (please look it up in a dictionary if you don't understand the word) and illogical. Please try to answer the points. By the way Giant shape-shifting heroes would also be possible.FasterPussycatWooHoo 14:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Giant shape-shifting heroes" is a reference to Kyodai Heroes, which is a subgenre of tokusatsu. Again, you're astoundingly uninformed.--SB | T 15:45, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, please listen to us, as we are much more knowledgeable in this area of "Japanese fancruft" (as you once put it) than you are. Tokusatsu is not the same as special effects. Special effects are what you see in tokusatsu shows and movies. The Ultraman, Kamen Rider, Super Sentai, Metal Heroes, Kyodai Hero, Henshin Hero, Godzilla, and other series use special effects techniques in filming. This is what makes them tokusatsu productions. The Japanese Wikipedia even makes a clear distinction at the beginning of ja:特撮.

Tokusatsu can mean mainly three things:

1. Special effects (ja:SFX)
2. Movies and television programs that use special effects, which this article discusses
3. A Japanese rock band ja:特撮 (バンド)

The English Wikipedia article also deals with these meanings (save for the last one), mainly giving the history of Eiji Tsurabaya's contributions to the genre, some of the techniques utilized in early productions, and some examples, and unique things within the genre. If you disagree with myself, Sean Black, Jgp, and other people, you are free to discuss your points at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tokusatsu.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 21:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Special effects (abbreviated SPFX or SFX) are used in the film, television, and entertainment industry to realize scenes, such as space travel, that cannot be achieved by normal means. Why in the world would anyone in their right mind merge a genre of live-action Japanese entertainment, encompassing many subgenres of film and television into that article? It's not even relevant. And special effect furthermore does not need this information. Additionally, five people have responded to the merge request and none of them thought it was anywhere near a good idea. This article is its own article, and it has its own content, and it doesn't need to be put into any other article. This continued arguing is just disruptive.

(As an unrelated note, I think it's rather fanboy-ish to insist this article is about the Japanese word for special effects. It's about the genre, and it's ridiculously purist to insist that loanwords retain their original meanings. English Wikipedia, English usage.) --Keitei (talk) 21:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As well as demonstrating his ignorance with Sean Black his misinterpretation of the terms I put up, the boy certainly finds it hard to be civil. There is no such genre as tokusatu, except among deluded fan-boys and fan-girls who think everything from Japan must be treated with reverence and awe. A science fiction movie is a science fiction movie, etc.

Ryūlóng's quote from the japanese wikipedia is pretty well correct, but says nothing about your imaginary special genre; it just says "movies and television programs that have special effects". Also, we are much more knowledgeable in this area of "Japanese fancruft" (as you once put it) than you are is incredibly rude and presumptious. How on earth do you know what I am and aren't knowledgeable about?

As well as an inanely pretentious username, User:Keitei also has trouble with civility. You have been taken in by an American marketing gimmick.

In any case, the page is a mess, part is about special effects and part is about the imaginary genre, it's full of odd PoV, etc.

Even worse, just about everything on this page is covered on multiple others.FasterPussycatWooHoo 15:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]