Malke has been in touch - User_talk:SilkTork#Moderator. We can start. I suggest we create a subpage in which to hold the discussions. It can be linked and/or transcluded on this page. I know there has been friction and frustration, but in order to move the discussions forward there should be no personal comments. Allow me to hat any personal comments that creep in. It would be better if I, or another uninvolved person, did that; and if, while waiting for the comment to be hatted, people did not respond, even if the comment sits there for a while. Something I have found useful, is when annoyed, type out what you want to say - but don't post it; edit it down to something polite, then discard it. It gets it out of your system, but doesn't upset anyone.

If there's no objections I will start a subpage sometime tomorrow, and on that we can briefly discuss and lay out the main issues, and consider if the article needs trimming, and if so, the best way of doing that. There was a suggestion recently of creating split-off articles. We could also consider that. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 22:44, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello SilkTork. I think that it is important to acknowledge that the underlying cause here is conflicting goals, not personal chemistry. (Although good chemistry would make a lot of other things go better). I think that it must also be acknowledged that if an article has been pulled to one "side" that the objectives on that one "side" are to maintain the status quo, while the immediate objectives of the other "side" are to pull it towards neutral. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:36, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like a clarification about the "personal comments" restriction. In some cases, a particular edit may strike me as absurd (in some cases, to the point where I do not see how any competent person could see it as appropriate), regardless of the identity of the editor. Since we will be talking about the future of the article, rather than the past edits, this shouldn't come up, but, I'd like clarification. I would avoid commenting that a particular editor is taking inappropriate actions, but it may be necessary to indicate a particular edit is absurd. Any ideas? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:50, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Anything judgemental not factual is probably a mistake here. I would say why you thought it was absurd, avoiding sarcasm and irony. Ive had irony taken as consent for absurdity before now. ----Snowded ^TALK 10:14, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Arthur, comment on the edit rather than the editor. And yes, Snowded, it is helpful to explain one's thinking. I would hope, however, at this stage, that we would be considering broad issues, and getting consensus for actions rather than dealing with individual edits or smaller points. Once the broad issues are agreed, folks here can deal with the fine tuning, and I would think at that stage my role would be over. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:01, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks SilkTork, for setting this up and serving as our moderator. It will generally be a difficult, time-consuming and thankless task, but I hope we can resolve some issues and improve the article. Individual edits concerning use of the terms "grass-roots" and "anti-immigration" to generally describe TPm (installing the first term in the lede and removing the second term from the "Agenda" section) have been very contentious, and devoured a great deal of editor time and Talk page space. Most troublesome to me is the apparent lack of any real progress regarding these two edits, which I consider to be self-evident, based on the number of reliable sources which actually support these terms per WP:WEIGHT. Somebody with authority needs to be able to step up and say, "We have consensus for this," or "There's no consensus for that, and I doubt there ever will be." Are you that person of authority? If so, would you review the article Talk page and try to make these determinations? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:12, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Establishing broad issues

This is just a suggestion, but it might be a good idea for editors to briefly name an issue they feel needs addressing, like 'article length,' etc. Just list something and sign your name. Then once we have a list, we could sort it and decide which issues seem most important, as I imagine that would be respectful of Silk Tork's time here. Then we could work our way through the revised list. If editors agree, then simply name an issue below and sign your name. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:31, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Article organization. It should be laid out like the other articles about political movements. All commentary, particularly by persons, publications or entities that can reasonably be construed to be politically opposed to the Tea Party, should be near the end of the article if it gets into the article at all. After all, if we allow politicians and political organizations to be defined by their opponents, there would be a certain biography starting with the words, "Barack Obama is a socialist born in Kenya ..." To control the length of the article, we create sub-articles with links such as Allegations of bigotry in the Tea Party movement. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 18:25, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The TPm is not a political party, and I strongly disagree with your suggestion that criticism of any portion be relegated to the end of the article.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 13:01, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Hot button words. Certain terms, such as "grass-roots" and "anti-immigration," have proven to be very controversial. They trigger edit wars, reams and reams of text on the article Talk page, and ultimately a lot of frustration and anger. Let's find a way to short circuit all the frustration and anger. I propose a procedure to be limited to this moderated discussion. All participants are asked to sign on below. The procedure is this: an editor seeking to introduce or change a particular descriptive word proposes the edit in a new section on this page. All editors active on this page have seven days to Support or Oppose the edit, and present policy-based arguments supporting their positions. At the end of the seven days, SilkTork determines whether there is consensus one way or the other, and announces that finding at the end of the section.

• Support. It's relatively fast, and it has finality and certainty. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 18:25, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• We should establish that the highest priority objective is to make this article informative. Endless effort/ battles/ on trying to fight/wiki-lawyer in swipes or praise should be recognized as contrary to that. 02:06, 12 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.248.152 (talk)

• Reduce content The article should provide a good overview of the Tea Party movement and not stay mired in excessive details. Perhaps merge 2010/2012 elections with another article like List of Tea Party politicians. Merge anything that deals with protests over to Tea Party protests. If it's something that happened at a protest, it really belongs in that article. Nothing should be duplicated here in this article, which is a bit long to begin with. Malke 2010 (talk) 03:53, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(Personal attack removed)

• Comment What do you mean by "not stay mired in excessive details"? This is an encyclopedia and should provide as much detailed content in covering the topic as appropriate according to the reliable sources and policy.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 13:01, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Framing of the article The article currently is disjointed, and uninformative.

The article should be organized more on topical issues as addressed in secondary sources, not primary source material by TPm activists or leaders.

The Agenda section is the prime example of the problem. Whereas secondary sources addressing topical issues related to the TPm focus on issues such as the constitution and immigration, the Agenda section is taken up almost entirely by the "Contract from America", which is basically a document that has been used in an effort to recruit people, including politicians to the TPm. The Tea Party Patriots are the only group apparently involved in the largely failed effort to have the platform adopted (it lists a total of four legislators from 2010!). In other words, the Contract from America is given undue prominence, even though it is for all intents and purposes obsolete, having been eclipsed by the Republican "Pledge to america", etc.; moreover, there is not a single secondary source discussing it. Seeing as it has its own article, perhaps it should be substantially trimmed down in accordance with WP:UNDUE, and secondary sources introduced.

With respect to immigration, an argument has been put forth that immigration reform is now the current issue. If such shifting of the time frames is permissible there, then the Contract for America should be considered to be something of a dated document, and the content of the issues in it that are still current addressed.

It is still may be necessary to trace the development of some positions where the transitions between past stances and the current stance are relevant.

The domestic issues having the greatest import include:

1. The constitution
2. Taxation
3. Immigration
4. The role/size of the government

Considering that the TPm is almost entirely restricted to the USA, it is very strange that the Agenda section obscures the domestic issues that could be considered as primary motivators for the grass-roots participants, relegating them to blurbs, yet prominently features foreign policy. That belies a total lack of balance in the Agenda section. And the "Tea Party Caucus" is defunct, so why was it described in terms that make it seem current and viable with respect to foreign policy?

There must have been substantial criticism of the contract when it came out, in light of controversial contents, such as items 2 and 10 on the list. Why is there absolutely no input from secondary sources? There is some criticism and analysis reltated to the foreign policy pronouncements. Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 05:37, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ubikwit, SilkTork mentioned above that the focus is on the edit and not the editor. We're trying to come to an agreement here. Comments such as "proponents. . .use the article for advocacy," and naming editors and your uninformed assumptions of their supposed motivations, are not helpful. You have no evidence of advocacy and it's a personal attack against editors to even suggest that, especially when you then name editors. You have no evidence or knowledge of anyone's motivations or their personal or professional lives. You are simply attacking volunteer editors. I've redacted your comments. I can't speak for the other editors, but if you accuse me of advocacy again, I will take you to a noticeboard. Malke 2010 (talk) 12:33, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe that mentioning an editor in response to a claim they make is precluded, but I will refrain from suggesting you are engaged in advocacy, and admit, in retrospect, that it was improper (largely due to lack of sleep, basically). On the other hand, you should re-read the opening paragraph by SilkTork regarding personal comments, and not take matters into your own hands by removing my comments, accusing me of a personal attack and then threatening me with ANI. Are you also implying that my comments related to statements made by P&W and North suggested advocacy on their parts. My comment primarily have addressed the content of the edits by the editor, not the editor on a personal level. I have reentered my remarks that relate directly to other editor's posts as comments following the relevant edits.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 13:01, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of the list is to establish what editors see as changes that will benefit the article. Questions and comments can come later. I've moved your post down here. Malke 2010 (talk) 13:15, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And yes, you were accusing all three of us of advocacy. Re-read your own comment. Malke 2010 (talk) 13:30, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Malke, I don't care to engage in a prolonged argument with you, but I'm going to have to ask you to stop moving/removing my comments. If SilkTork finds anything inappropriate or misplaced, he can hat it or move it to the place in the discussion that he finds appropriate, at his discretion as moderator. Thank you.Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 15:00, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]