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	Tai chi was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result December 8, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed March 11, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

I just noticed the table gives the impression that the Chen styles do not continue past the first few generations. Would someone handy with tables be willing to extend the Chen lineage perhaps to the point of Chen Fa Ke?Herbxue (talk) 20:37, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please list the lineage so that I see where the branch that Chen Fake comes from. I've looked around, but am not finding anything conclusive. I'll work on it and post it here to be assessed. InferKNOX (talk) 17:24, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I did the best with collecting data single-handedly and built upon the current tree to come up with this tree that is more comprehensive and (I think) better shows continuation of the various styles. I can't entirely vouch for it's accuracy & need it to be double-checked please. It's mostly information I gathered whilst editing the various taijiquan related articles. InferKNOX (talk) 13:15, 30 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This tree is very useful and helps the reader to see how the classical styles evolved. However, I agree with the comment above that it seems to imply that Chen style is no longer extant. It suggests that the other styles grew out of Chen (which I understand to be the case), but that Chen didn't carry forward to the modern era. t know that isn't the case, so can the tree be modified to show that Chen still exists, along with Yang, Sun and Wu styles? Sunray (talk) 19:30, 14 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Genealogy trees are always both useful and misleading. This one, while not incorrect, it is incomplete. There are several currently recognized Grandmasters of all styles around, but they do not appear in the tree. You'd think the art is dead because of this. For instance, there is no mention of the other brothers of Yang Shou-Chung, like Yang Zhen Duo. Neither is there mention of Chen Zhenglei or Chen Xiaowang, Eddie Wu, Ma Hailong, Wu Wenhan, Sun Yongtian or Yang Jun. These are all the torch bearers of the major styles, and all (and others too!!) have done tremendously important work around the world to keep their styles vibrant and accessible to all.

Also, since the are life dates, per force, the reader is led to believe that the tree is also time-related, giving the impression that there are no other branches that continue to exist after the represented person is dead.

Consequently I ask: is there a better representation of a tree that will not mislead people into believing that "this is all there is"?

Bruno talk 13:54, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@ Sunray & Bruno : My point is to expand upon the current lineage tree, which (another editor made &) creates an even stronger illusion of the styles coming to an end at certain individuals, as Herbxue (talk) said. I made this tree have downward branches beyond the teachers to give a greater impression of continuation. However, I need assistance in gathering information on who each branch connects to, so please specify; ie, Yang Chien-hou connects to Yang Shao-hou & Yang Chengfu, Yang Chengfu connects to.... Also, please be specific on how to arrange it in order to make the continuation of each style clearer, etc. That way I'll add in the extras and build a more comprehensive and straight-forward tree.

The tree needs to be a reasonable size, however, so logically I think it would be better to add in the consecutive torch-bearers/gate-keepers for each style, with minimal contemporaries, then make more contextualised trees that shows the connection of a particular teacher, on the pages of those significant individuals, with links pointing back to the major tree on the taijiquan page. That way, it'll show this tree which will be a main stem of sorts, with zoomed in view on particular branches on the relevant pages. Does that sound okay? InferKNOX (talk) 22:00, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments to my changing of the shape & colour-coding of the tree would be very welcome. Thanks. InferKNOX (talk) 00:17, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The new tree looks better. Here are some points for consideration:

1. Chen Fake is the grandson of Chen Changxing. Chen Fake's father is Chen Yanxi. Chen Fake should be in the same Taiji generation as Yang Pan-hou.
2. The tree suggest that that Yang Chien hou studied with Chen Qingping but that is not the case Yang Chien hou only study with his father. Only Wu Yu Yu-Hsiang studied with both Yang Lu Chan and Chen Qingping. So the tree should reflect that.
3. Wang Jaio-Yu should be Guang Ping Yang Style not Original Yang because that is how the Guang Ping stylist refer themselves.
4. The Zhaobao Frame continues today. The tree suggest that it only continued through the Wu (Hoa) Style.
5. Cheng Man-ch'ing, a student of Yang Cheng Fu, established his own style and can be considered a variant of the Yang style. ottawakungfu (talk) 03:05, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The new, colored tree is much easier to understand. Could you add leaves to the end of each branch with the labels (Chen) (Wu) (Yang) ... so that a reader could trace upwards easily? htom (talk) 04:40, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I added the leaves you spoke of htom. Is there any other beneficial edits to the tree you'd like me to make?

I made adjustments you mentioned in 1, 2 & 3, ottawakungfu, but need you to please elaborate on where exactly to add the branch for Zhaobao and the details of (or at least links to) the individuals in the lineage. About Cheng Man-ch'ing; would it be of benefit to add him, considering the focus is the major family styles? I only ask this because the tree could get too big & not display nicely in browsers. I think it'd be better to limit the lineage of the major styles' through the gate-keepers, eg, for Yang-style: Yang Luchan → Yang Jianhou → Yang Chengfu → Yang Zhenduo → Yang Jun (according to the Yang family tree), etc. With this in mind, I'd like to propose removing the (seemingly redundant) Yang Shao-hou branch from this tree on the main page and instead having it present on a more zoomed in tree I can build on the Yang-style page (and the related sub-pages) that focuses on the Yang-style related branches. It's my intent to make such zoomed in trees on each family style's page & it's sub-pages. Does that sound acceptable?

I would also like to reiterate that I need help in the form of people giving me the gate-keeper lineages for each style, including the generation each individual represents in that given style. Remember that the relevance is on the lineage of the style, not necessarily the family members. Thanks for the feedback. InferKNOX (talk) 11:42, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Great work InferKNOX. I have no other suggestions. The reason I mentioned Cheng Men Ch'ing is due to his popularity but you are correct - he is not one of the major family styles. Forms of Zhaoboa taiji exists in China, Taiwan and US but it could be considered as a form of Chen (but not to the Zhaboa practitioners). So not having an extension is ok. I will go to the Zhaoboa article to provide more details. I will drop the Yang Shao hou lineage since it is not very well known. I will go to Yang Shao Hou page to find more information on this branch. I would suggest dropping Guang Ping Yang Style at the end to be consistent since it is not a major family style. The color is a good addition as well. ottawakungfu (talk) 12:19, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks ottawakungfu, I'm really glad the there's positive progress. I've reduced the colour intensity for better readability and the horizontal size of the tree by cutting down the Yang lineage to the gate-keepers, but I can't find definitive information on who is the 5th generation Yang, since shifu Yang Jun is meant to be 6th generation (please correct me if I'm wrong). Since the size is smaller, Zhaobao should now fit better, so please give me or point me to the lineage information for it, then I'll add the branch. Have a look at this unusual lineage tree on Zhang Sanfeng article that I found, which may help (it didn't really make sense to me). Now I also need more comprehensive Chen, Wu, Wu (Hao) and Sun lineage and generational information to fill in the blanks. InferKNOX (talk) 14:03, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

InferKNOX, point of information: Yang Jun is 6th generation direct blood descendant of Yang Luchan, but is the 5th generation gate-keeper of the Yang Family style. Yang Jun was raised by his grandfather Yang Zhenduo, and never mentions his parents; I speculate it is because they were lost to the terror of the Cultural Revolution.Bruno talk 13:25, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that Bruno. I amended it to 5th generation on the tree now, since the relevance is the martial art not necessarily the family lineage. InferKNOX (talk) 14:34, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Great work, InferKNOX. I would suggest One Giant Tree (OGT) (perhaps as its own page) with pointers into it from the various articles, displaying only the relevant parts,levels, and detail desired at that link, but I don't know of a way to do that in wiki-display. The OGT might be useful as a building and maintenance tool, if there's a way to snip copies of branches of that OGT and paste them into the articles with only the appropriate detail showing. If not, it would be a mountain of work to little use. htom (talk) 17:20, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking this on, InferKNOX, the table looks great. I like the format and colors. The difficulty will be deciding what NOT to include. I would agree with others that a Zhaobao branch may be unnecessary. Within Chen, there is so much detail that could be included, though I favor simplicity. Would like to hear if others think that there should be a separate branch for "Chen Village" Taiji vs. "Xin Jia" Taiji of Chen Fake and his successors?Herbxue (talk) 17:42, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't want to overdo it htom. Let's first get this one in order, then see about the tree-on-it's-own-page idea. Your idea sounds great, but I've not seen any way in which to point into the tree, only a way to link out of it. I also don't know how to make only certain branches of a tree display on a page, other than manually building those branches of the tree on the page. Read my response to Herbxue below though, it's quite similar to your suggestion and if there is a way to do what you say and agreement to do so, my suggestion can be the interim place-holder that builds towards that end.

Thanks Herbxue, my current proposal is to have this tree just show the successive generations of each family style, with perhaps other lesser styles like Guang Ping Yang, Zhaobao & He styles included if they don't over-enlarge the tree. I think it would be better to focus for the time being on filling in all the information regarding the lineage of each family style and deploying the tree, then think about expanding it with lesser branches, it'll probably come together better. For the individual styles, I will build more detailed branches depicting the particular style's origin and lineage detail within the style (and also add those trees to the pages of individuals found on the tree), while referencing the larger more generalised tree on the main page. On the main page, a note can be put that more details on any given family style can be found by following the link to the specific style and seeing the detailed family-style specific branches on the respective style's page. That way both the core origins and the detailed propagation information will be available to readers without making any single tree overwhelmingly large. This will quickly address the issue of deploying the core information that should be available, then all the peripheral data can be filled in as it's decided upon and made available.

All that being said, can someone post information on each successive generational gate keepers firstly for Chen-style, please.

This is probably too controversial because Chen Fake have many students. You can proceed according to family relationships then you follow his second son - Chen Zhaokui (1928-1981) and then his son Chen Yu (1962 - ). However, there will be objections from the Chen village who follow the first son, Chen Zhaoxu and his son Chen Xiaowang. Then there are other students of Chen Fake all teaches a variation of Chen Taiji. So I think the issue should be addressed in the Chen Tai chi article rather in the general Tai-chi article.

Also, who is the 5th generation for Yang-style to complete that branch in the tree? Thanks. InferKNOX (talk) 21:06, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This issue should be address in the Yang-style article. The lineage for Yang style become complicated after Yang Cheng Fu. He had many students and they are all well known proponent of Yang Style and all have great reputation. According to family relationships, his oldest son Yang Sau Chung was the most well known since was based in Hong Kong. He has three daughters (Amy, Mary and Agnes) so they could be considered to be the next generation for Yang Tai Chi (5th generation). However, according to Chinese tradition, lineage holders should be male so the students of Yang Sau Chung could be the fifth generation holder. It is only recently with the opening of China that other sons of Chen Fu (Yang Zhen Duo, Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Guo) promoted the art internationally. Yang Zhen Duo is the most organized in the West. His grandson (Yang Jun) learned from Yang Zhen Duo and now lives in Seattle. So according to this history, there is no fifth generation between Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Jun. Yang Jun is considered sixth generation based on family ties and not based on teacher-student relationships.

In general, family trees in martial arts are very complicated and can be very political so in an introductory article for Wikipedia, the latest edition provides a non-controversial overview. Hope this helps. ottawakungfu (talk) 02:45, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed it is. Thanks for the information and advise. It is indeed helpful. I'll start building the trees for the individual styles then take the discussion there when I have something present on those pages, so that we can build on those trees, then add what's appropriate to this one. Any additional feedback, etc from anyone is welcome and requested. Thanks. InferKNOX (talk) 09:50, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I got a question. Shall I attach the legendary figures to the top of this tree? I think it would be prudent to do so, considering that they are the true origin. I could make a "{" of sorts at the top stating that those are legendary figures. I made a Yang-style oriented branch that you can check to give you an idea of what I did, although there I didn't add names of individuals or a 'legendary figures' tag, because it's not immediately relevant to the article, but it is here on the main article. InferKNOX (talk) 20:54, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the legendary figures in another color? htom (talk) 02:38, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How's that? I think a neutral tone is better than overdoing things with even more colours. I got the "various daoists" from Zhaobao_taijiquan#History and Lineage. Hope you all like it, and everyone, please keep the suggestions on what to add coming in. Thanks. InferKNOX (talk) 18:46, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well I've completed all the preliminary branches for the family styles:

• Talk:Chen-style t'ai_chi ch'uan#Improving lineage trees
• Talk:Yang-style t'ai chi ch'uan#Improving lineage trees
• Talk:Wu (Hao)-style t'ai chi ch'uan#Improving lineage trees
• Talk:Wu-style t'ai chi ch'uan#Improving lineage trees
• Talk:Sun-style t'ai chi ch'uan#Improving lineage trees

Everyone please input where you can. Thanks. InferKNOX (talk) 14:34, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like there's a bit of a mix-up regarding talk of generations of the respective individuals in the lineage tree between generations of family descendants & generation of practitioner in relation the founding of the respective style. I propose having the lineage tree reflect the generation of the practitioner in regard to the style, not his/her personal family tree, since the focus of this tree is the martial art, not the individuals' families, eg, Chen Wangting, (may be 9th generation in the Chen family, but) is the founder of Chen-style taijiquan, so the tree aught to just show that he's the founder, Chen Changxing and Chen Youben are 2nd generation teachers (despite being 14th generation in the Chen family), etc. This will allow greater clarity on how taijiquan was passed down and who each gate-keeper was, irrespective of the fact that some styles have gate keepers that are not from the same family & will avoid confusion. A write-up can simply be made indicating that the generations mentioned are of the styles' gate-keepers, not which generation they represent in their respective families. InferKNOX (talk) 13:11, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the tree lacks the information on Chen-style gate-keepers to the current date, so help there would be appreciated; then I think you all can agree that this tree can be deployed and any further additions, which would be minor at that point, can then made on the deployed tree. InferKNOX (talk) 13:11, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Lastly, I would still like feedback on what should be done with the tree regarding Zhaobao taijiquan. Should I build a tree only for Zhaobao & it's subpages that is more focused on the branch of that style, the way I've done with each family style, and omit it from this main tree? If I should include it in this tree, who in the tree does it branch from & what is the lineage? Other than that, I think Guang Ping Yang-style gate-keepers to-date would also help to enrich the tree. InferKNOX (talk) 13:11, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well it seems there's silence on this now. So, unless there are any objections/additions, I'll be replacing the tree on the main page with this one soon, and the same for the respective sub-pages, putting the family-style centric trees on the family-style pages and their appropriate sub-pages. InferKNOX (talk) 11:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I asked for additional assistance from individuals on a Facebook group called The Kwoon and with their contributions have allowed me to make significant changes to the tree. Please review it and give me feedback. I've also added Wudang, Zhaobao and Zhaobao He style. I'm very unsure about the Zhaobao branches because everywhere I look, I'm finding conflicting information, so I need particular help there. I think from what I've read, they are quite relevant and I even think some articles aught to be made on them. Please give me any and all feedback. I've also made major changes on all the family trees that I linked a few comments above, which I'll be updating on the respective pages in a moment. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 21:05, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That, I think, can qualify as the final tree. Unless there are any objections/corrections/additions, I will go ahead and put it onto the article page. I've also revised the trees of the various family styles + the built an initial Zhaobao tree, that I'm putting up on the respective discussion pages. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 13:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looks great, thank you for all the hard work you put into this.Herbxue (talk) 04:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've come across information regarding these styles while gathering information for the lineage tree I'm working on above, and have heard of their significant presence. I would like to recommend making articles on them as sub-topics of taijiquan. For Zhaobao He-style, if a full topic is excessive, at least a section within the Zhaobao Taijiquan article to refer to.
Li-style
Zhaobao He-style
They seem relevant and I believe could have reason to be part of the lineage tree. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 20:35, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

During my re-building of the taijiquan lineage trees, it has been suggested to me that Tian Zhaolin also had the tudis (special students) Shen Yongpei and Shen Jingling. Shen Yongpei then fathered Shen Zaiwen, who was taught by both Yongpei and Jingling, then formed "Shen-style" and passed it on to Steve Higgins. This is apparently denied by the Tian family records, thus I would like to ask for input on it here, as it seems premature to consider it's inclusion into any tree(s) before proper discussion. It is now taught in Canada and Japan as an Old Yang middle-frame deriving from Yang Jianhou through the Tians.... ~ InferKNOX (talk) 11:23, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would not considered it to be a separate style of Yang. Shen Zai Wen (沈再文) is the son of Shen Jin Lin (沈金林). Shen Zai Wen published and promotes qigong and the internal martial arts. He is currently living in Japan. According to my searches, other martial arts authorities do not refer to Shen's Taiji performance as a separate style. This lack of recognition suggested to me that it is not a separate style. ottawakungfu (talk) 16:27, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add a taijiquan logo to the article page.

• 
  not this exact file, but this type of symbol

Although many people incorrectly say that the taijitu symbol is the taijiquan symbol, those that know taijiquan to a higher degree, will know it is not so. The symbol that represents taijiquan is represented by a symbol that lies between wuji and yin and yang. There are 2 ways in which it can be depicted, the first simply being a black & white spiral. The second, is the 'objective' of taijiquan practitioners, also called an ancient taiji symbol, is the rotation of yin and yang to mix it into a central wuji. I believe this second symbol is the most distinctive and accurate depiction of taijiquan & would thus like to include the logo on the main page.

The nature of Taijiquan ~ InferKNOX (talk) 21:29, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this is also a valid section to add to the article.

• 
  long-sleaved
• 
  short sleeved

It is widely known that taijiquan practitioners normally wear either cotton or silk traditional Chinese 'gongfu uniforms'. The Northern, long-sleaved, uniforms being the most common and the Southern, short-sleaved, not as common, but also used. The colours are quite variable, however, they're normally all black, all white or black & white.

The belts, I'm not too sure about. My shifu's school (a branch of Wong Doc-Fai's Plum Blossom International Federation) has students wear blue satin sash with coloured fringe (tassels on the ends). As a student graduates, the colour of these fringes is changed, however the belt remains blue, until the student advances to black belt. Is this the usual belt grading, or is does it vary. If it varies, please cite examples.

Your input in this would be much appreciated. Thank you. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 21:29, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand it, belts and ranking are not common in Taijiquan. I believe individual schools in the west often copy Japanese ranking systems because people like ranks and belts, but these are not traditional to Taiji. I understand there are academic degrees in MA one can earn in China, as well as ranks in various arts through particular organizations, but these also are not traditional and, as far as I know, not promoted by most prominent Taiji lineages. I would recommend not including the concept of rank in this article.Herbxue (talk) 17:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, unlike other martial arts such as Aikido or Gongfu, there is no standardized uniform, and there is definitely no belt system. Many Kungfu schools which also teach taiji have their students wear a uniform, but the vast majority of taiji practitioners meet in informal settings. Not even the original school of taiji, Chen style tai chi chuan uses uniforms. Anyway, we should get reliable sources about this, not just talk about it. Steven Walling • talk 18:18, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]