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	Tai chi was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result December 8, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed March 11, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

I just noticed the table gives the impression that the Chen styles do not continue past the first few generations. Would someone handy with tables be willing to extend the Chen lineage perhaps to the point of Chen Fa Ke?Herbxue (talk) 20:37, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please list the lineage so that I see where the branch that Chen Fake comes from. I've looked around, but am not finding anything conclusive. I'll work on it and post it here to be assessed. InferKNOX (talk) 17:24, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I did the best with collecting data single-handedly and built upon the current tree to come up with this tree that is more comprehensive and (I think) better shows continuation of the various styles. I can't entirely vouch for it's accuracy & need it to be double-checked please. It's mostly information I gathered whilst editing the various taijiquan related articles. InferKNOX (talk) 13:15, 30 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This tree is very useful and helps the reader to see how the classical styles evolved. However, I agree with the comment above that it seems to imply that Chen style is no longer extant. It suggests that the other styles grew out of Chen (which I understand to be the case), but that Chen didn't carry forward to the modern era. t know that isn't the case, so can the tree be modified to show that Chen still exists, along with Yang, Sun and Wu styles? Sunray (talk) 19:30, 14 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Genealogy trees are always both useful and misleading. This one, while not incorrect, it is incomplete. There are several currently recognized Grandmasters of all styles around, but they do not appear in the tree. You'd think the art is dead because of this. For instance, there is no mention of the other brothers of Yang Shou-Chung, like Yang Zhen Duo. Neither is there mention of Chen Zhenglei or Chen Xiaowang, Eddie Wu, Ma Hailong, Wu Wenhan, Sun Yongtian or Yang Jun. These are all the torch bearers of the major styles, and all (and others too!!) have done tremendously important work around the world to keep their styles vibrant and accessible to all.

Also, since the are life dates, per force, the reader is led to believe that the tree is also time-related, giving the impression that there are no other branches that continue to exist after the represented person is dead.

Consequently I ask: is there a better representation of a tree that will not mislead people into believing that "this is all there is"?

Bruno talk 13:54, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@ Sunray & Bruno : My point is to expand upon the current lineage tree, which (another editor made &) creates an even stronger illusion of the styles coming to an end at certain individuals, as Herbxue (talk) said. I made this tree have downward branches beyond the teachers to give a greater impression of continuation. However, I need assistance in gathering information on who each branch connects to, so please specify; ie, Yang Chien-hou connects to Yang Shao-hou & Yang Chengfu, Yang Chengfu connects to.... Also, please be specific on how to arrange it in order to make the continuation of each style clearer, etc. That way I'll add in the extras and build a more comprehensive and straight-forward tree.

The tree needs to be a reasonable size, however, so logically I think it would be better to add in the consecutive torch-bearers/gate-keepers for each style, with minimal contemporaries, then make more contextualised trees that shows the connection of a particular teacher, on the pages of those significant individuals, with links pointing back to the major tree on the taijiquan page. That way, it'll show this tree which will be a main stem of sorts, with zoomed in view on particular branches on the relevant pages. Does that sound okay? InferKNOX (talk) 22:00, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments to my changing of the shape & colour-coding of the tree would be very welcome. Thanks. InferKNOX (talk) 00:17, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The new tree looks better. Here are some points for consideration:

1. Chen Fake is the grandson of Chen Changxing. Chen Fake's father is Chen Yanxi. Chen Fake should be in the same Taiji generation as Yang Pan-hou.
2. The tree suggest that that Yang Chien hou studied with Chen Qingping but that is not the case Yang Chien hou only study with his father. Only Wu Yu Yu-Hsiang studied with both Yang Lu Chan and Chen Qingping. So the tree should reflect that.
3. Wang Jaio-Yu should be Guang Ping Yang Style not Original Yang because that is how the Guang Ping stylist refer themselves.
4. The Zhaobao Frame continues today. The tree suggest that it only continued through the Wu (Hoa) Style.
5. Cheng Man-ch'ing, a student of Yang Cheng Fu, established his own style and can be considered a variant of the Yang style. ottawakungfu (talk) 03:05, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The new, colored tree is much easier to understand. Could you add leaves to the end of each branch with the labels (Chen) (Wu) (Yang) ... so that a reader could trace upwards easily? htom (talk) 04:40, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I added the leaves you spoke of htom. Is there any other beneficial edits to the tree you'd like me to make?

I made adjustments you mentioned in 1, 2 & 3, ottawakungfu, but need you to please elaborate on where exactly to add the branch for Zhaobao and the details of (or at least links to) the individuals in the lineage. About Cheng Man-ch'ing; would it be of benefit to add him, considering the focus is the major family styles? I only ask this because the tree could get too big & not display nicely in browsers. I think it'd be better to limit the lineage of the major styles' through the gate-keepers, eg, for Yang-style: Yang Luchan → Yang Jianhou → Yang Chengfu → Yang Zhenduo → Yang Jun (according to the Yang family tree), etc. With this in mind, I'd like to propose removing the (seemingly redundant) Yang Shao-hou branch from this tree on the main page and instead having it present on a more zoomed in tree I can build on the Yang-style page (and the related sub-pages) that focuses on the Yang-style related branches. It's my intent to make such zoomed in trees on each family style's page & it's sub-pages. Does that sound acceptable?

I would also like to reiterate that I need help in the form of people giving me the gate-keeper lineages for each style, including the generation each individual represents in that given style. Remember that the relevance is on the lineage of the style, not necessarily the family members. Thanks for the feedback. InferKNOX (talk) 11:42, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Great work InferKNOX. I have no other suggestions. The reason I mentioned Cheng Men Ch'ing is due to his popularity but you are correct - he is not one of the major family styles. Forms of Zhaoboa taiji exists in China, Taiwan and US but it could be considered as a form of Chen (but not to the Zhaboa practitioners). So not having an extension is ok. I will go to the Zhaoboa article to provide more details. I will drop the Yang Shao hou lineage since it is not very well known. I will go to Yang Shao Hou page to find more information on this branch. I would suggest dropping Guang Ping Yang Style at the end to be consistent since it is not a major family style. The color is a good addition as well. ottawakungfu (talk) 12:19, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks ottawakungfu, I'm really glad the there's positive progress. I've reduced the colour intensity for better readability and the horizontal size of the tree by cutting down the Yang lineage to the gate-keepers, but I can't find definitive information on who is the 5th generation Yang, since shifu Yang Jun is meant to be 6th generation (please correct me if I'm wrong). Since the size is smaller, Zhaobao should now fit better, so please give me or point me to the lineage information for it, then I'll add the branch. Have a look at this unusual lineage tree on Zhang Sanfeng article that I found, which may help (it didn't really make sense to me). Now I also need more comprehensive Chen, Wu, Wu (Hao) and Sun lineage and generational information to fill in the blanks. InferKNOX (talk) 14:03, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

InferKNOX, point of information: Yang Jun is 6th generation direct blood descendant of Yang Luchan, but is the 5th generation gate-keeper of the Yang Family style. Yang Jun was raised by his grandfather Yang Zhenduo, and never mentions his parents; I speculate it is because they were lost to the terror of the Cultural Revolution.Bruno talk 13:25, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that Bruno. I amended it to 5th generation on the tree now, since the relevance is the martial art not necessarily the family lineage. InferKNOX (talk) 14:34, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Great work, InferKNOX. I would suggest One Giant Tree (OGT) (perhaps as its own page) with pointers into it from the various articles, displaying only the relevant parts,levels, and detail desired at that link, but I don't know of a way to do that in wiki-display. The OGT might be useful as a building and maintenance tool, if there's a way to snip copies of branches of that OGT and paste them into the articles with only the appropriate detail showing. If not, it would be a mountain of work to little use. htom (talk) 17:20, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking this on, InferKNOX, the table looks great. I like the format and colors. The difficulty will be deciding what NOT to include. I would agree with others that a Zhaobao branch may be unnecessary. Within Chen, there is so much detail that could be included, though I favor simplicity. Would like to hear if others think that there should be a separate branch for "Chen Village" Taiji vs. "Xin Jia" Taiji of Chen Fake and his successors?Herbxue (talk) 17:42, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't want to overdo it htom. Let's first get this one in order, then see about the tree-on-it's-own-page idea. Your idea sounds great, but I've not seen any way in which to point into the tree, only a way to link out of it. I also don't know how to make only certain branches of a tree display on a page, other than manually building those branches of the tree on the page. Read my response to Herbxue below though, it's quite similar to your suggestion and if there is a way to do what you say and agreement to do so, my suggestion can be the interim place-holder that builds towards that end.

Thanks Herbxue, my current proposal is to have this tree just show the successive generations of each family style, with perhaps other lesser styles like Guang Ping Yang, Zhaobao & He styles included if they don't over-enlarge the tree. I think it would be better to focus for the time being on filling in all the information regarding the lineage of each family style and deploying the tree, then think about expanding it with lesser branches, it'll probably come together better. For the individual styles, I will build more detailed branches depicting the particular style's origin and lineage detail within the style (and also add those trees to the pages of individuals found on the tree), while referencing the larger more generalised tree on the main page. On the main page, a note can be put that more details on any given family style can be found by following the link to the specific style and seeing the detailed family-style specific branches on the respective style's page. That way both the core origins and the detailed propagation information will be available to readers without making any single tree overwhelmingly large. This will quickly address the issue of deploying the core information that should be available, then all the peripheral data can be filled in as it's decided upon and made available.

All that being said, can someone post information on each successive generational gate keepers firstly for Chen-style, please.

This is probably too controversial because Chen Fake have many students. You can proceed according to family relationships then you follow his second son - Chen Zhaokui (1928-1981) and then his son Chen Yu (1962 - ). However, there will be objections from the Chen village who follow the first son, Chen Zhaoxu and his son Chen Xiaowang. Then there are other students of Chen Fake all teaches a variation of Chen Taiji. So I think the issue should be addressed in the Chen Tai chi article rather in the general Tai-chi article.

Also, who is the 5th generation for Yang-style to complete that branch in the tree? Thanks. InferKNOX (talk) 21:06, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This issue should be address in the Yang-style article. The lineage for Yang style become complicated after Yang Cheng Fu. He had many students and they are all well known proponent of Yang Style and all have great reputation. According to family relationships, his oldest son Yang Sau Chung was the most well known since was based in Hong Kong. He has three daughters (Amy, Mary and Agnes) so they could be considered to be the next generation for Yang Tai Chi (5th generation). However, according to Chinese tradition, lineage holders should be male so the students of Yang Sau Chung could be the fifth generation holder. It is only recently with the opening of China that other sons of Chen Fu (Yang Zhen Duo, Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Guo) promoted the art internationally. Yang Zhen Duo is the most organized in the West. His grandson (Yang Jun) learned from Yang Zhen Duo and now lives in Seattle. So according to this history, there is no fifth generation between Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Jun. Yang Jun is considered sixth generation based on family ties and not based on teacher-student relationships.

In general, family trees in martial arts are very complicated and can be very political so in an introductory article for Wikipedia, the latest edition provides a non-controversial overview. Hope this helps. ottawakungfu (talk) 02:45, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed it is. Thanks for the information and advise. It is indeed helpful. I'll start building the trees for the individual styles then take the discussion there when I have something present on those pages, so that we can build on those trees, then add what's appropriate to this one. Any additional feedback, etc from anyone is welcome and requested. Thanks. InferKNOX (talk) 09:50, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I got a question. Shall I attach the legendary figures to the top of this tree? I think it would be prudent to do so, considering that they are the true origin. I could make a "{" of sorts at the top stating that those are legendary figures. I made a Yang-style oriented branch that you can check to give you an idea of what I did, although there I didn't add names of individuals or a 'legendary figures' tag, because it's not immediately relevant to the article, but it is here on the main article. InferKNOX (talk) 20:54, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the legendary figures in another color? htom (talk) 02:38, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How's that? I think a neutral tone is better than overdoing things with even more colours. I got the "various daoists" from Zhaobao_taijiquan#History and Lineage. Hope you all like it, and everyone, please keep the suggestions on what to add coming in. Thanks. InferKNOX (talk) 18:46, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well I've completed all the preliminary branches for the family styles:

• Talk:Chen-style t'ai_chi ch'uan#Improving lineage trees
• Talk:Yang-style t'ai chi ch'uan#Improving lineage trees
• Talk:Wu (Hao)-style t'ai chi ch'uan#Improving lineage trees
• Talk:Wu-style t'ai chi ch'uan#Improving lineage trees
• Talk:Sun-style t'ai chi ch'uan#Improving lineage trees

Everyone please input where you can. Thanks. InferKNOX (talk) 14:34, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like there's a bit of a mix-up regarding talk of generations of the respective individuals in the lineage tree between generations of family descendants & generation of practitioner in relation the founding of the respective style. I propose having the lineage tree reflect the generation of the practitioner in regard to the style, not his/her personal family tree, since the focus of this tree is the martial art, not the individuals' families, eg, Chen Wangting, (may be 9th generation in the Chen family, but) is the founder of Chen-style taijiquan, so the tree aught to just show that he's the founder, Chen Changxing and Chen Youben are 2nd generation teachers (despite being 14th generation in the Chen family), etc. This will allow greater clarity on how taijiquan was passed down and who each gate-keeper was, irrespective of the fact that some styles have gate keepers that are not from the same family & will avoid confusion. A write-up can simply be made indicating that the generations mentioned are of the styles' gate-keepers, not which generation they represent in their respective families. InferKNOX (talk) 13:11, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the tree lacks the information on Chen-style gate-keepers to the current date, so help there would be appreciated; then I think you all can agree that this tree can be deployed and any further additions, which would be minor at that point, can then made on the deployed tree. InferKNOX (talk) 13:11, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Lastly, I would still like feedback on what should be done with the tree regarding Zhaobao taijiquan. Should I build a tree only for Zhaobao & it's subpages that is more focused on the branch of that style, the way I've done with each family style, and omit it from this main tree? If I should include it in this tree, who in the tree does it branch from & what is the lineage? Other than that, I think Guang Ping Yang-style gate-keepers to-date would also help to enrich the tree. InferKNOX (talk) 13:11, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well it seems there's silence on this now. So, unless there are any objections/additions, I'll be replacing the tree on the main page with this one soon, and the same for the respective sub-pages, putting the family-style centric trees on the family-style pages and their appropriate sub-pages. InferKNOX (talk) 11:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I asked for additional assistance from individuals on a Facebook group called The Kwoon and with their contributions have allowed me to make significant changes to the tree. Please review it and give me feedback. I've also added Wudang, Zhaobao and Zhaobao He style. I'm very unsure about the Zhaobao branches because everywhere I look, I'm finding conflicting information, so I need particular help there. I think from what I've read, they are quite relevant and I even think some articles aught to be made on them. Please give me any and all feedback. I've also made major changes on all the family trees that I linked a few comments above, which I'll be updating on the respective pages in a moment. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 21:05, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Although T'ai chi redirects here, Tai chi redirects to Taiji. I feel it should redirect here on the English Wikipedia (Tai chi -> T'ai chi ch'uan), as this is what English-language-using searchers of 'tai chi' are likely to be looking for (this article acknowledges that in the West, "tai chi" refers to the martial art). I started a discussion on Talk:Taiji. ~ Kimelea (talk) 12:53, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are dozens of possible spellings of taiji and taijiquan that make some degree of sense in English. We may discuss each of these separately and argue whether a person using each spelling is most likely to be looking for the philosophical concept, the symbol, or the martial art. But I think only one principle consistently makes sense of this: Any spelling EXCLUDING the word/syllable quan/ch'uan/... should redirect to the concepts, and any spelling INCLUDING this word/syllable should redirect to the martial art. And then, of course, the article on the concept should display briefly explained links to the martial art and to the symbol in top-notes - and perhaps in the lead, too.--Nø (talk) 14:23, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see where you're coming from, and I agree that that's a smooth way of organising the words, but my understanding of redirects is that they should predict what a user is actually looking for - which may not be so elegant. I think a person looking for the taiji concept is likely to be aware how it is spelled, and unlikely to enter "tai chi" as a search term, whereas someone looking for the martial art is highly likely to enter "tai chi". What links here suggests the same - the links to Tai chi seem to be referring to it as an activity, sport or martial art. But if you feel strongly, and nobody else comments, we can compromise. ~ Kimelea (talk) 15:12, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't feel strongly about it, but I think any changes made should reflect the fact that the following are all redirects to T'ai chi ch'uan and Taiji, respectively:

• T’ai chi ch’uan, T’ai Chi Chuan, T’ai-chi ch’uan, Tai Chi Chuan, Tai chi chuan, Tai Chi Chu'An, Tai chi ch'uan, Tai Chi Ch'uan, T'ai chi chuan, T'ai Chi Chuan, T'ai Chi Ch'uan, T'ai Chi Ch'uan (pin-yin article), Tai Chi Chuean, T'ai Chi Ch'uean, T'ai Chi Ch'uean (pin-yin article), Tai Chi Chüan, Tai chi chüan, Tai Chi Ch'üan, T'ai Chi Ch'üan, T'ai chi ch'üan, T'ai Chi Ch'üan (pin-yin article), Tai Chi Quan, Tai ji chuan, Tai Ji Chuan, Tai Ji Quan, Tai ji quan, Tài Jí Quán, Tài jí quán, Taichi Chuan, Taichi chuan, Tai-chi Chuan, T'aichi ch'uan, T'aichi Ch'uan, T'ai-chi ch'uan, T'ai-chi Ch'uan, T'ai-chi Ch'uean, T'ai-chi ch'uean, Taichi chüan, Taichi Chüan, T'aichi ch'üan, T'aichi Ch'üan, T'ai-chi ch'üan, T'ai-chi Ch'üan, Taichichuan, Taichichüan, Taiji Chuan, Taiji Quan, Taiji quan, Tàijí quán, Tàijí Quán, TaiJiQuan, Taijiquan, Tàijíquán, Taijiquan (pinyin article), Tàijíquán (pinyin article), T'ai chi, T'ai Chi, Tai qi, Tai-Chi, Tao Chi, Thai Chi
• Tai chi, Tai Chi, Tai Ji, Tai ji, Tài jí, Tài Jí, Taichi, T'aichi, T'ai-chi, Tàijí, Tai Chi (disambiguation), Tai Ji (disambiguation)

I've only included those redirects that represent attempts at spelling taijiquan resp. taiji. The boldfaced ones presently redirect to the wrong article, according to my consistent principle. The italicised ones are unfortunat too, I think, though I'm not sure what to do about them. Some may feel that these two list of redirects are ridiculously long - and I'm one of them, though, for consistency, I actually created some of them.--Nø (talk) 08:17, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

PS. I've now changed the italicised ones to redirect to Taiji (disambiguation) instead; I think that makes more sense.--Nø (talk) 08:25, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jeeeeez. Who had the patience to create all those?? Some of them don't need to exist at all - T'ai Chi Ch'üan (pin-yin article) for example is an orphan and nobody's going to enter that in the search box. Likewise the two dab redirects you changed - nothing links to them, and nor should it. :) I'm not convinced that anyone is going to enter special characters like ü and à on the English Wikipedia either. Maybe we'd better take this to Redirects for Discussion - neither of us are happy with how it is at the moment, and this is gonna need a bigger broom. :p ~ Kimelea (talk) 14:22, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you scroll up to what presently is the first section of this talk page, you'll find a list of possible (and impossible) spellings of taiji and taijiquan. There are still red links among them... and I definitely agree: many of the redirects are pointless. Apart from the ones with parentheses, I'm not sure which ones we should delete, though. "Chüan" seems frequent enough to stay, where as I don't recall seing "chuean" elsewhere. The accents in pinyin "Tàijíquán" should not warrant a redirect, I guess, but that's a question of general principles for pinyin in wikipedia. I'm not quite sure how things work when you look something up in Wikipedia - are some of the redirects unnecessary simply because one will be redirected anyway? Like, searching for peter pan (or even pEtEr pAn) sends you directly to Peter Pan, even in absence of a redirection page. (Incidentally, someone went through the trouble of creating the redirection pages Peter Pan (literature character), Peter Pan (person), Peter Pan (fictional character), Peter Pan (character), Peter Pan (lierature character), and Peter Pan (literary character) -- whatever the purpose!)--Nø (talk) 15:44, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(I guess some of the Peter Pan redirects are leftovers from a series of rename-over-redirect's.) I see my link peter pan is a redlink - however, as I stated, searching for "peter pan" in the search box leads to Peter Pan, and that is what matters.--Nø (talk) 16:08, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

...So I looked up [[1]], and following those principles there seems to be no reason to delete ANY of the weird redirects. Which brings us back to your original suggestion about WHERE to redirect. Here's all I really have to say about that: As long as ANY of the spellings of "taiji" (including Wade-Giles spellings) redirect to T'ai chi ch'uan, that article must have a hatnote pointing back to Taiji -- which I will now add.--Nø (talk) 17:06, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There's a case for deleting all the weird spellings on 'reasons to delete' #1 and #8, spamming up the search engine and being unlikely typos respectively, but it does seem most redirects are kept unless there's a convincing reason why they shouldn't be. And I think you're right, the search engine corrects capitalisation if it doesn't find an article with the capitalisation you entered, so it's unnecessary to have T'ai Chi Ch'uan as a redirect for T'ai chi ch'uan for example. I would say all those Peter Pan fans have too much time on their hands, but here we are debating obscure spellings of Chinese words, so. :D

Good call with the hatnote on T'ai chi ch'uan. I added one back to Taiji for the same reason, it's clearer than the one you deleted. And now I'll start an RfD - I'll link here when I've finished, but it might take a while for me to sort through all those titles to make my suggestions. ~ Kimelea (talk) 21:32, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of the redirects are now under discussion at RfD. Thank you for your help identifying the ones that needed to be discussed, Nø. ~ Kimelea (talk) 02:46, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Opposed: "Spamming up" the search engine? This has nothing to do with WP:SPAM. I agree with User:Nø, both that there was no reason to mass delete these and that the concept should not be redirected to the martial art.

In isolated cases, perhaps there are unlikely typos, however, you've been indiscriminate with your "suggestions" and you've failed to follow guidelines. There was already a hat note on Taiji, and to use your example, T'ai Chi Ch'uan: regardless of whether a full search might turn up something somewhere, it would needlessly break every one of these links:

• Talk:T'ai chi ch'uan ‎ (links)
• User talk:Petersam ‎ (links)
• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fire Star ‎ (links)
• User talk:Taichiseeker ‎ (links)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Taikyoku nidan ‎ (links)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2004 December 28 ‎ (links)
• Talk:Tai chi chuan/Archive 1 ‎ (links)
• User talk:206.54.145.254 ‎ (links)
• Talk:Reiki/Archive 1 ‎ (links)
• User talk:Roble ‎ (links)
• User talk:Hilikp ‎ (links)
• Talk:Joan of Arc/Archive 1 ‎ (links)
• User:Bradeos Graphon/temp ‎ (links)
• User talk:Tyciol/2006 ‎ (links)
• Talk:Qi/Archive1 ‎ (links)
• Talk:T'ai Chi Ch'üan/Archive 2 ‎ (links)
• Wikipedia:WikiProject Taoism/Assessment ‎ (links)
• Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Taoism articles by quality log ‎ (links)
• User talk:PRehse/Archive 1 ‎ (links)
• Talk:Tai chi chuan/Archive 3 ‎ (links)
• User talk:Ghostexorcist/Archive2 ‎ (links)
• User talk:Shell Kinney/Archive 8 ‎ (links)
• User:Showers ‎ (links)
• Talk:Wing Chun/Archive 1 ‎ (links)
• Talk:Qigong/Archive 1 ‎ (links)
• User:BullRangifer/List of alternative medicine subjects ‎ (links)
• User:Yunshui ‎ (links)
• User talk:InferKNOX ‎ (links)
• International Chinese Kuoshu Federation ‎ (links)
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/T'ien Ti Tao Ch'uan-shu P'ai ‎ (links)

Please self-undo your precipitous mass deletion as consensus is weighing against you.

• 02:46, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+395)‎ . . Talk:T'ai chi ch'uan ‎ (→‎Redirect of Tai chi: Nominated for RfD) (top)
• 02:44, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+325)‎ . . Talk:Taiji ‎ (→‎Redirect of Tai chi: Nominated for RfD) (top)
• 02:36, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+16,597)‎ . . Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2012 March 27 ‎ (Nominating Tai chi and related redirects) (top)
• 02:05, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Tài jí ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 02:05, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Tài Jí ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 02:05, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Tai ji ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 02:04, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Tai Ji ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 02:04, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Tàijí ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 02:02, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Tai Ji (disambiguation) ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 02:02, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Tai Chi (disambiguation) ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 02:01, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Tai-Chi ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 02:01, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . T'ai Chi ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 02:01, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . T'ai chi ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 01:57, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Thai Chi ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 01:57, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Tao Chi ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 01:56, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Tai qi ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 01:56, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . T'aichi ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 01:55, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . T'ai-chi ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 01:55, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Tai-chi ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 01:55, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Taichi ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 01:54, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Tai Chi ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)
• 01:54, 27 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+255)‎ . . Tai chi ‎ (Nominated for RFD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion) (top)

Thank you.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 03:01, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know where to start with this, Machine Elf. You've massively jumped to conclusions. Although Nø and I both talked about the long list of spelling variations redirecting to T'ai chi ch'uan, we both agreed that they were probably excessive and could do with a trim. But the RfD isn't even about that. I haven't proposed deletion of a single redirect, let alone the 'mass delete' you're talking about. Nor have I suggested redirecting the concept to the martial art! Please see my reply on the RfD.

'Spamming up the search engine' was an informal reference to WP:R#DELETE, reason #1. Nothing to do with WP:SPAM. ~ Kimelea (talk) 03:37, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tisk tisk… regarding the unfortunate ones in italics, User:Nø clearly stated "I've now changed the italicised ones to redirect to Taiji (disambiguation) instead; I think that makes more sense" (emphasis in the original). However, at the RfD, you claim Nø's "elegant" solution "hasn't held up due to the Western usage ambiguity, and now we have a mess."

RfD is a euphemism for deletion. Notice, they each say: "keep/delete"… not to mention: “Redirects for discussion (RfD) is the place where Wikipedians decide what should be done with problematic redirects. Items sent here usually stay listed for a week or so, after which they are deleted by an administrator, kept, or retargeted”.

That's 214 links pointing at the 17 different redirects you've nominated, a mass deletion which I did recommend that you self-revert (unless it really is your intention, of course):

You leave out “all the many, MANY weird spellings of taijiquan / t'ai chi ch'uan pointing to T'ai chi ch'uan” (emphasis in the original). That is, you only nominated Taiji-permutations, none of which would go to your desired location, per User:Nø's recommendation.

Please be honest: you most certainly do "suggest" that Tai chi, Tai Chi, Taichi, Tai-chi and T'ai-chi be redirected to T'ai chi ch'uan and that T'aichi, Tai qi, Tao Chi and Thai Chi be redirected to disambiguation.

Although you claim User:Nø “tried to create some consistency by directing all spelling variations of taiji and t'ai chi to Taiji and all spelling variations of taijiquan and t'ai chi ch'uan to T'ai chi ch'uan” you "suggest" Keep because that's these currently do point to your desired location: T'ai chi, T'ai Chi, Tai-Chi. You'll also inexplicably !vote keep for the disambiguation pages, (very thoughtful of you), and the following rarely linked Taiji permutations (35 out of 214): Tàijí, Tai Ji, Tai ji, Tài Jí and Tài jí, which does nothing to clear anything up.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 05:59, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Point by point then...

1. Yes, Nø changed the ones in italics yesterday. It was an improvement. The mess was caused long before yesterday, by other editors redirecting some of the tai chi spelling variations in good faith, but not being aware of all the others. Nobody deliberately made a mess. My description of his solution as 'elegant' was not sarcastic. It was elegant. Unfortunately, the usage of the words in English is not so elegant, and redirects should reflect the most likely usage. (See WP:PRIMARYTOPIC - I am saying that the English primary topic of the term tai chi, for example, is the martial art and not the concept.)
2. RfD is not a euphemism for deletion. It's called discussion for a reason. This was made clear to me on the Help Desk when I first raised the possibility of RfDing a (different) redirect.
3. Once again, there is no 'mass deletion'. I do not want any of the redirects I nominated to be deleted, except possibly Tai Chi (disambiguation) and Tai Ji (disambiguation) - deletion is not the purpose of my RfD. I am well aware how many internal pages link to these redirects. That's why it's so important that we get them pointing at the right targets.
4. Yes, I did only nominate "Taiji-permutations", because they are the only ambiguous ones. Anybody searching for Taijiquan, Tài Jí Quán, T'aichi ch'üan or even Taiji Chuan is going to be looking for T'ai chi ch'uan, not Taiji or even Tai chi chih.
5. Yes, I do suggest that Wade-Giles variations on tai chi be retargeted to T'ai chi ch'uan, and confused spellings go to the dab. That is not the same as 'redirecting the concept', which implies redirecting Taiji and similar Pinyin spellings - something I have suggested we do not do. No matter the etymology - terms like tai chi refer to a martial art in English, not a concept.
6. I don't even understand your last point. I don't have a 'desired location'. My 'desire' is for our redirects to cause minimum confusion to our readers, by correctly anticipating what users of a particular search term will be looking for.
7. If you want to nominate some of the redirects for deletion, by all means do so. Nø and I were entirely in agreement that there are too many pointless ones - he remarked on the ones with parentheses and the unnecessary capitalisations. But as I explained, I didn't nominate anything for deletion because it would have confused the important matter at hand - the frequently used redirects such as Tai chi. If you nominated the likes of T'ai Chi Ch'uan (pin-yin article), T'ai Chi Ch'uan (unnecessary capitalisation), Tai Ji (disambiguation) etc etc for deletion, I'd support it. But it needs someone with more understanding than me of Chinese romanization, to know which are likely search terms and which are not.
8. Your points on the RfD: you said Nø was not in favour of my proposed redirects. He actually declined to state an opinion, saying he didn't feel strongly. He just asked that any changes made were consistent, and provided the list, helping me to identify which redirects needed discussing. Please do not put words in his mouth by framing him as being in opposition.
9. I am circumventing nothing. WP:FORUMSHOPping is raising an issue "on multiple noticeboards, or to multiple administrators". This is raised on exactly one noticeboard. That is the purpose of RfD: asking for community-wide discussion on the purpose of redirects.

I have no nefarious agenda here. Please stop assuming such bad faith. ~ Kimelea (talk) 15:42, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nefarious? Who said anything about nefarious, you? Who said anything about an agenda, you? Who proposed "Redirect of Tai chi" on both article talk pages, you? Those aren't forums? Don't pretend like you could care less; just stand by what you've explicitly said you want to do. The sooner you stop accusing me of bad faith, the sooner I can forego pointing out that you were the one making false accusation about me right from the start: I did not claim you were being uncivil, and FYI, I did not imply that you were sarcastic. I have no idea why it strikes you as "elegant" that different transliterations of the same word mean the same thing. Unfortunately, you think you're being accused of something nefarious, so you carry on with denials and counterattacks:

8. “Your points on the RfD: you said Nø was not in favour of my proposed redirects. He actually declined to state an opinion, saying he didn't feel strongly.” (here's what Nø actually said) “He just asked that any changes made were consistent, and provided the list, helping me to identify which redirects needed discussing.” (and you just won't admit you're arguing against making it consistent… "needed discussing" eh? here we go then) “Please do not put words in his mouth by framing him as being in opposition.”

You've got some nerve! Quit lying, you're the one shamelessly putting words in Nø's mouth and you're the one crying bloody murder as if you're being framed… for a tactical end-run. LOL, fiendish.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 21:20, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Machine Elf has removed a comment that I placed here. I don't agree with that removal and it is being discussed, but anyone interested can check the history to find out what was said. ~ Kimelea (talk) 05:10, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Undid revision 484273545 by Kimelea (talk) WP:NPA Still having secret discussions about me? I'm not intimidated by you.
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2012 March 27: Silly me, I had hoped you were going cold turkey on the dramz.

WP:LETGO—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 14:07, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that in the interests of maintaining accuracy in the articles/searches while not disregarding usual usage, spellings in the short form "Taiji/T'ai chi" should redirect to the respective disambiguation pages, or if not, then to the Taiji article page, with hatnotes to the T'ai chi ch'uan page the disambiguation page(s). Honestly, I'm undecided about the matter, but in a way think the disambiguation pages should be consolidated (I won't pursue that though). Additionally, I agree on deletion of redirects based on variations in capitalisation, with only one of each respective variant left, since the search engine compensates, but have no comment on deletion of spelling variations as I'm not aware of much of the WP guidelines regarding such. (I've also posted this in the RfD page, since I'm not totally sure where the post aught to be.) InferKNOX (talk) 12:23, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your input InferKNOX and welcome back to Wikipedia! Your comments are very welcome, however please note that the current RfD does not propose deletion of anything - even the capitalisations and so on - it would have got too complicated. The RfD is just talking about where to redirect Tai chi and similar Wade-Giles spellings, based on the English use of such terms to mean T'ai chi ch'uan, the martial art. As I've said to Machine Elf, I would welcome it if someone else with better knowledge of Chinese would nominate some of the weird ones like Taiji Chuan for deletion. ~ Kimelea (talk) 15:50, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you too for your warm welcome back. I understand that deletion of anything isn't the point, but I was just adding my opinion on it. I don't see the point of redundant capitalisation redirects of the same spelling. in the point of hybrid WG-Pinyin spellings, I wholeheartedly believe they are a blight that should be purged and seeing as they are simply the product of misspelling, need not even have a linguist intervene. Back to the main point though, I reiterate my belief that the various T'ai chi's & Taiji's should point at their respective disambiguation pages. Reason is, as you say, Kimelea, most of the time people will be referencing the martial art, but it should rightfully be pointing to the concept. Pointing to the disambiguation page will make sure people become aware that there are two different meanings to the one term rather than force them to the (technically correct) concept, which they probably aren't after, or the (technically incorrect) martial art. InferKNOX (talk) 17:18, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. :) I think I'm going to stay out of this whole debate once the RfD is done, though. I really admired the way you and the others came to consensus last year about the naming of this article (T'ai chi ch'uan) but it hasn't gone that way this time. I'll voice support of deleting the excess redirects if somebody else nominates them. ~ Kimelea (talk) 17:28, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, don't do that. Reading through what has been discussed about this topic, it is my opinion that Machine Elf is being unnecessarily confrontational & hostile, despite being at quite a tangent to what you're actually talking about, in my view. Debate is definitely necessary on the naming of this art & I strongly believe that the various names people are attaching to taijiquan are hindering yet other peoples' understanding of it & by proxy, it's propagation. Thus it is vital that individuals like yourself participate in clarifying what the name truly is and shaking off these... abominations for names that are popping up like "Tai qi", "T'ai ji", etc. If it is not done, then the art will continue to sync ever deeper into obscurity as each erroneous interpretation builds upon prior errors. Besides, I (and I'm sure others) found it quite cumbersome to develop some semblance of consensus here regarding the name, but it happened eventually... kind of & so I hope to press forth to do the same as best I can in the institutions teaching taijiquan so that some form of unity can be achieved for the solidification of the art as a whole. InferKNOX (talk) 21:12, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Confrontational and hostile? Comment on content.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 21:30, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry if I offend Machine Elf, as it is not my intent to do so, but I stand by my assertion due to the tone with which you've been addressing Kimelea. It is the manner & not the content of your argument I speak of. It seems unduly harsh despite Kimelea's earnest attempts to have you understand that he/she is not after deletion, but rather to develop continuity on which redirects are pointing where, as stated in an example, Tai-chi redirects one way, yet Tai-Chi another, despite being virtually the same, if not so. InferKNOX (talk) 23:14, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My tone and not the content. Then let's WP:comment on content, not on the contributor.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 03:40, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My comment has neither been a personal attack, nor is about you, but is rather about the aggressive manner in which your content has been presented to Kimelea. My comment is not directed at you, that this topic need be deviated off course by discussing it with you, but is directed at Kimelea, who is opting towards ceasing contributions to this topic as a result of you apparent offensive. Please let's say no more on this and deal with the matter at hand. Thank you. InferKNOX (talk) 09:06, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not asking you to discuss it with me. I'm asking you to drop it.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 13:49, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your moral support InferKNOX. To clarify, no uncivil editor would scare me off participating in something that interests me (and I trust in good faith that that is not Machine Elf's intention), it's just a question of whether the taijiquan-related redirects matter enough to me to go to the trouble of nominating them and then the drama of defending the nom. If the current RfD results in some progress with the inconsistency, we could possibly work together to produce a list of those we think could stand to be deleted, and co-nominate them? ~ Kimelea (talk) 05:24, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I would love to help in whatever way I can to sort through this mess that is taijiquan naming. I've very passionate about it and will do my utmost to achieve progress. Remember though that I'm relatively new, as far as WP editing goes, so it may take quite some... guidance to get me familiar with methods, tools & policies, so that I contribute effectively without putting a spanner in the works. ;-) InferKNOX (talk) 09:51, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm newer than you! :) I just have a great mentor and dive into the WP documentation a whole lot! Maybe sometime (at your leisure) you can produce a list of the three-syllable redirects that you think need to go, and we can discuss them. ~ Kimelea (talk) 15:56, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well I guess I'm just bad at reading then, LOL. Sound great, will do. :-) InferKNOX (talk) 21:12, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

in Shenmue II there is some of this T'ai chi ch'uan -- 60.241.153.201 (talk) 13:51, 30 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've come across information regarding these styles while gathering information for the lineage tree I'm working on above, and have heard of their significant presence. I would like to recommend making articles on them as sub-topics of taijiquan. For Zhaobao He-style, if a full topic is excessive, at least a section within the Zhaobao Taijiquan article to refer to.
Li-style
Zhaobao He-style
They seem relevant and I believe could have reason to be part of the lineage tree. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 20:35, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

During my re-building of the taijiquan lineage trees, it has been suggested to me that Tian Zhaolin also had the tudis (special students) Shen Yongpei and Shen Jingling. Shen Yongpei then fathered Shen Zaiwen, who was taught by both Yongpei and Jingling, then formed "Shen-style" and passed it on to Steve Higgins. This is apparently denied by the Tian family records, thus I would like to ask for input on it here, as it seems premature to consider it's inclusion into any tree(s) before proper discussion. It is now taught in Canada and Japan as an Old Yang middle-frame deriving from Yang Jianhou through the Tians.... ~ InferKNOX (talk) 11:23, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would not considered it to be a separate style of Yang. Shen Zai Wen (沈再文) is the son of Shen Jin Lin (沈金林). Shen Zai Wen published and promotes qigong and the internal martial arts. He is currently living in Japan. According to my searches, other martial arts authorities do not refer to Shen's Taiji performance as a separate style. This lack of recognition suggested to me that it is not a separate style. ottawakungfu (talk) 16:27, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]