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The law on Marital Rape in India is governed by Sections 375 (Rape), Section 375 read with Section 376 (Punishment for Rape), and Section 375 read with Section 376 and Section 376A (Intercourse by a man with his wife during separation) of the Indian Penal Code. This law was enacted in 1860, and amended several times thereafter from time to time by the Parliament of India and by state legislatures, which have the power to make certain types of state-specific laws and amendments to national laws, which become laws which are applicable only in particular states.^{[Indian Penal Code 1]}

The "Exception" clause in section 375 (Rape) of the Indian Penal Code deals with spousal sexual intercourse with or without the consent of the wife, in case the wife is more than 15 years old. It reads as follows, "Exception.-Sexual intercourse by a man with his own wife, the wife not being under fifteen years of age, is not rape."

A fragment of Sub-section (1) of Section 376 (Punishment for Rape) deals with rape by a man of his wife who is between 12 and 15 years of age. This sub-section declares, "Whoever, except in the cases provided for by sub-section (2), commits rape shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which shall not be less than seven years but which may be for life or for a term which may extend to ten years and shall also be liable to fine unless the woman raped is his own wife and is not under twelve years of age, in which case, he shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years or with fine or with both".

Section 376A of the Indian Penal Code deals with "Intercourse by a man with his wife during separation". It declares, "Whoever has sexual intercourse with his own wife, who is living separately from him under a decree of separation or under any custom or usage without her consent shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years and shall also be liable to fine."

There is a discrepancy between the Hindu Marriage Act, the Special Marriage Act, laws relating to marriage between any religious combination of husband and wife (except marriage between a muslim man and a muslim woman, which is governed by the Muslim Marriage Act, and by judgments of the Supreme Court relating to this subject), and the Sections of the IPC dealing with marital rape. According to all these laws, the minimum age at which a woman can legally be married is 18 years. While the IPC sections dealing with rape, discuss wives as young as 12 years of age. The Prohibition of Child Marriage Act also prohibits marriage of girls younger than 18 years old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.100.14.160 (talk • contribs) 10:20, January 6 2013 (UTC)‎

Since this is requested, can someone (actually seems like just any of 2) please explain why the section about travel advisories was removed? Its definitely a related notable reaction by government bodies around the world regarding the issue and incidents. The sources are all clearly RS and the co-relation is all reported, non clearer than the actual government issued travel advisory issued by the UK government,^[1], and even Mahesh Sharma has been doing active damage control, poor guy. Plus there is definitely more than enough content so far to break this up as a separate section (the amount of writeup is beefier than the other sub-sections). If I didn't know better, I would almost think this was an attempt to whitewash the issue. But I'm assuming good faith here and waiting for a reasonable explanations for now before bring this up. Zhanzhao (talk) 00:33, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note that at least with the writeup about the drop in tourism, at least it can then be balanced off by the writeup about what The Indian government is doing to protect and warn tourists. Else there is no need for action if no problem is being acknowledged. Also the absense the travel advisories implies that the various governments of the victims are not doing anything to warn or protect their nationals even after past cases, which is not the case here at all.Zhanzhao (talk) 01:02, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is trivial and it is not even related to rape in India. First sentence is about the issues, that they take place, second sentence concerns the plans that are yet to happen. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 01:12, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Beg to differ, it IS about rape in india, the only qualifier here is that its against internationals rather than citizens, which is why it should be separated to its own section, thanks for pointing that out. For something thats "trivial", it lead to governments updating their travel advisories to reflect it (how many countries do you see doing that), and its covered by multiple news agencies around the world. Zhanzhao (talk) 02:36, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Gov.uk is a primary source. Read WP:WPNOTRS. VictoriaGrayson^Talk 01:28, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If you understand WPNOTRS, you'd know that this is one instance where a primary source is allowed. Its no different from how the Penal code is being sourced in the main article since it is the authority on the matter. You should be removingnthat as well, based on your application of WPNOTRS Zhanzhao (talk) 02:36, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes the Penal code should also be removed.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 05:00, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Travel advisories, and most newsworthy developments do not qualify for inclusion in wikipedia. See WP:WWIN, particularly WP:NOTNEWS. There are zillion travel advisories, in different countries, about China, North Korea, Russia, Iraq, Israel, etc - and they are of no encyclopedic value. Penal code is, however, relevant as it is not news, is reliably sourced and legally relevant. See Rape in the United States.

M Tracy Hunter (talk) 05:16, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome, M Tracy Hunter. I am trying to understand how it meets NOTNEWS. Particularly as it is not a news writeup about travel advisories per se, but about how travel advisories have been updated to specifically reflect the concern of rape and possible rape against the various country's citizens. The Indian tourism authority has also been taking active steps against this backlash, so its definitely notable even on the government level. Zhanzhao (talk) 10:14, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1. Travel advisories are issued by most governments, as news bulletin. Advisories change. Often. On wiki policies, read the whole WP:WWIN. Articles are not travel guides, not advice, not trivia, not many other things. You wouldn't find travel advisory notes in an encyclopedia in any good university library.

Legal definition of rape, in contrast, is important because rape means different things in different countries. Sweden has one of the most complicated definition of rape, for example. Brazil defines rape differently for different victims. Many Islamic countries do not consider most types of sex as rape; and marital rape is not rape in all Muslim-majority countries because of Sharia. Such legal definitions of rape is notable and of encyclopedic value in respective wiki articles.

M Tracy Hunter (talk) 00:38, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned, the writeup is about the advisories being changed to reflect the rape of the various country's citizens. If the advisory has been changed to no longer reflect the cautious note, that would itself be a point that can be noted in the article. You mentioned that advisories change. So do laws, yet we have a very detailed history about the changes to rape law in the article. And as to the semantics about the word "rape", it is not up to us to argue and define the meaning of the word, we merely report what and how the sources define as such. And if the sources from the various countries define the acts as rape, it is not up to us to opine that it is not. (That being the case, I'm pretty sure the cases against internationals all involve nonconsensual penetrative act against the victims, though that's beyond the scope of this writeup debate.)Zhanzhao (talk) 01:04, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The changing travel advisories are newsworthy, but not encyclopedia worthy. Legal definition of rape in each country is encyclopedia worthy. See Rape in Sweden, Rape in the United States, Rape in China and other related articles.

M Tracy Hunter (talk) 08:37, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If its just some random change, I'd agree. But if its a concerted change across many countries that led to significant repercussions, to the extent that the Indian government is taking note, the sum total of which has been reported widely, I'd say that goes beyond the regular newsbite or one-off travel advisory update. And though I do agree that definitions/differences of rape are encyclopedia worthy, that goes beyond the scope of this article and is a can of worms you might not want to open. Cos in the lede para, there's this line The incidence of reported rapes in India are among the lowest in the world..... by your logic and for consistency's sake, it would be necessary to add a disclaimer there too to justify its ranking among the lowest, since, in your words: "Legal definition of rape, in contrast, is important because rape means different things in different countries". Zhanzhao (talk) 06:22, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You write, "...significant repercussions" and "... Indian government is taking note". Both of these should be, and are already covered by the article. It is WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS to allege causal connection you imply in the first sentence "to the extent that the". Wikipedia is not the place to speculate and insert your pet theory, out of many possible theories, on why Indian or other government has or is "taking note", or on "why the rates per 100,000 women are high or low". This article must just summarize "encyclopedia worthy" reliably sourced verifiable information, in NPOV manner, without original research or copyvio. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, nor a battleground, nor a propaganda vehicle, nor a place to advocate speculations and POV theory. See WP:SOAP.

M Tracy Hunter (talk) 01:25, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"significant repercussions" [1]. "Significant" is frequently used. Feel free to change "repercussions" to drop/negative effect/damage/plunge(fill in random thesaurus substitute - note some of the words preceeding were actually used in some of the news articles). As for the "taking note", The Indian tourism minister initiated quite a number of programs to attempt to tackle the situation [2]. You're not saying he's doing this "just for fun", not after "taking note" of the drop in tourism?. And here's a different minister talking about this [3]. PS: You're the one wanting to open the can of worms that is "the difference in definition of rape around the world", I'm just pointing out another part of the article which would be affected by your rationale/take on that matter.... which happens to the the "rates per 100,000" part. Do think of the implications of your arguements and not just make them for the sake of it Zhanzhao (talk) 02:05, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So I took a closer look at some of the recent history for this article. It seems someone moved the paragraphs in the lead. I've moved the evaluation of the number of reported rapes back to the second paragraph, as it is not as important as the first paragraph. I also think this will satisfy some of the concerns about the lead's appropriateness. I also rearranged the second paragraph to move the "parliamentarians dispute this ....underreporting of rapes" (not verbatim) sentence closer to the top, as it is in response to the first sentence.

However, I also feel that the paragraph in question already mentions enough that it is referring specifically to 'reported' rapes. We also cannot comment on how severe the under-reporting is, that is mostly speculation, and also, estimates of the underreportedness in the US are irrelevant to India's situation. --Padenton (talk) 22:01, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, now that you mentioned it, it makes more sense. The previous leading sentence sounds like it was written by an apologetic and better suited for an article on Reported Rape in India rather than Rape in India per se. And to pre-empt since a comparison was made to the Rape in the United States article, that also starts with a line on "reported rape", but then again that article's lede did not have a "bigger picture" line on rape in general, in its lead either. Zhanzhao (talk) 23:59, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Commenting on underreporting is entirely appropriate - it is highly misleading to simply quote rape statistics without taking into account differences in reporting due to different expectations of legal action and differences in remedies available. There is no controversy that living in country with large portions of the population in rural areas with a tradition of legal arbitrarion by local panchayats, societal expectations of blame and excommunication of the rape victim and lack of criminalization of marital rape will have substantial underreporting of rape and cannot be compared directly to a country where none of those conditions hold. 49.244.254.146 (talk) 02:11, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, I keep getting reverted for the edits I make regarding this. The IP above was me as well, but I didn't realise I needed to sign in with my name until now. Please can we discuss this. If you look at survey figures, which are much more reliable for example the National Family Health Survey conducted by the government of India, the incidence of sexual violence is 8.5% among women aged 15-49 years old, way higher than the 1.2 rapes per 100,000 women you get from crime reports. It is very likely the low incidence of reported crimes reflect widespread societal fear on the part of women and lack of legal literacy rather than any kind of real safety. Having three sentences in the main paragraph stating exactly the same figures that India has the lowest reported rape rate in the world is misleading, because it makes readers think that rape is not a societal problem in India, because it is so low. Instead of fixating on numbers, this article should be discussing rape proper rather than numbers of reported rapes, since it is just as misleading to state arbitrary numbers gathered from a highly imperfect legal system and compare with highly imperfect monitoring systems from other countries using vastly different definitions and operating in vastly different ways. Whenever organizations conduct international, standardized, rigorous surveys such as the WHO multi-country report, India comes out in the middle rather than at the lowest end of the scale. Bargolus (talk) 08:04, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, there are no sources that call surveys more reliable, and if they did, they would be wrong. We can put the findings of the survey, but referring to surveys as having superior accuracy is incorrect and isn't sourced. ― Padenton|✉   14:09, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jabalpur has the what? Peter Jedicke (talk) 22:21, 19 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Says here [4] that it has the highest rate, so I put that ― Padenton |☎  22:31, 19 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Such as these allegations have to be rectified from the article. Also considering the WP:BLPCRIME, we cannot list a unproven allegation as rape. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 16:57, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the crime is being reported as a rape, not alleged rape, by most news agencies. The allegation/ambiguity relates to dentifying the perpetrators since its still under investigations (even though arrests have been made) and the motives. So ias long as the writeup reflects this it should be okay. Zhanzhao (talk) 02:47, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Every news agency has its own policies, how they report and how they analyze the issue. Wikipedia's policies differs a bit. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 04:22, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As I explained, it definitely meets WP:CRIME. You're saying that there's a danger of WP:BLPCRIME, which I do not disagree with. These 2 are not mutually exclusive though. That a crime took place doesn't seem to be a question here. And that's where the writing part must be handled carefully to not identify the alleged perpetrator while investigations are still ongoing.Zhanzhao (talk) 05:37, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree with OccultZone. In addition to WP:BLPCRIME, I feel we need to cleanup the individual instances of rape in this article. This is the Rape in India article, and while tragic, individual incidents that do not have an impact or relevance in India as a whole don't really belong here. News organizations will cover individual incidents. But what makes the few stories of rape (whether alleged or having already resulted in a conviction) that are already listed in the article important compared to the tens of thousands that occur every year in India? If we allow them, on what basis do we deny the addition of other incidents? ― Padenton |☎  21:36, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. The information being removed is being removed for what can only be NPOV reasons. This article is about Rape in India but you want to remove well referenced pieces about Rape in India??? TCKTKtool (talk) 22:26, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't dispute they are well-enough referenced. But they are non-notable to Rape in India as a whole. Are you suggesting we include in the article a section on each rape committed in India? What importance do these individual stories have that is not shared with every instance of rape? The section says "Notable Incidents". ― Padenton |☎  22:33, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If those other cases you speak of make major news around the world, then yes they should be included. You do know what notable means right? These are well referenced because they were such big stores of major notability. TCKTKtool (talk) 22:38, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is a separate issue from the previous debate between WP:BLPCRIME and WP:CRIME, but other than significant news coverage from not just international and local press for this one individual case, it led to a protest march, a condemnnation by the local catholic diocese, a visit by the Vatican city itself (all of which received quite a bit if coverage as well), and also quite a bit of news coverage about the aftermath and investigation itself. Its not up to us to determine or weigh its significance over the other tragic rapes that are also occuring but unreported, but the facts are facts that this particular case is standing out. Zhanzhao (talk) 22:42, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Zhanzhao, don't restore it again. WP:WIKILAWYERING is meaningless at this point. These are unproven allegations and not notable anymore. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 23:42, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OccultZone, I do not see any concensus for your removal, and may I point out, you're the one who started wikilawyering with WP:BLPCRIME. I see you have removed more stuff than what I added (note I only mainly reorganized content that was previously written and buffed it with more references, yet you're even removing pre-existing content not written by me wholesale. If you feel my edit is not in order, I would welcome this to be moved to a more authoratative Wikitalk space where other non-involved editors can weigh-in. This has bounced around between us longer than it should. Zhanzhao (talk) 01:07, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What is "unproven allegations"? And who are you to tell others to not revert/edit? TCKTKtool (talk) 23:43, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For what reasons you are keeping the "rape of foreigners", there is no official alert on visitors, to "use caution" is not extreme the way you are representing it.

For what reasons you are keeping these non-notable and unproven allegations? Even alleging a politician of rape when he has not been convicted yet?

WP:WIKILAWYERING means, misrepresenting the policies/guidelines of en.wiki. If you cannot understand the meaning of the word, refrain from using it. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:10, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is up for discussion at the dispute resolution notice board. To avoid whats beginning to feel like WP:OWN on all our parts, I suggest leaving this to editors/admins who have not been previously involved with this article, and accept an unbiased judgement call from them. What say you? Zhanzhao (talk) 07:29, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Padenton, OccultZone, and Zhanzhao: As I entered this fray by unblocking several individuals, I thought I'd make some comments.

1. Thank you Zhanzhao for taking this to DRN. That was one very smart move.
2. OccultZone, Zhanzhao did not do Wikilawyering. It did not approach that level.
3. Personally, I would keep the first paragraph in. ("Rape cases against internationals have lead to a number of countries to issue travel advisories...") It is referenced and very much points out the problems of rape other country may see in India. I would also list some of the countries.
4. There could be listed hundreds of rapes of international people in India. I have to agree with Padention's statement, This is the Rape in India article, and while tragic, individual incidents that do not have an impact or relevance in India as a whole don't really belong here. However....

1. The Russion national case did cause the Russian consulate to issue a warning [5] about not staying out late. This could be used as an example for the first paragraph.
2. The "Swiss couple" sentence was about tourists. This also could tie into the first paragraph.
3. If the above two cases (or similar ones) are two be used, I don't think separate paragraphs are needed. Use them in the first paragraph.

Bgwhite (talk) 08:37, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good alternative. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 08:39, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Bgwhite @Zhanzhao I just think that those rape cases which are in court or sub judice should not be mentioned here, only those cases in which honorable court has convicted or sentenced accused should be mentioned but those should be a very very notable cases because we can't add each and every case here just because its article of rape. Nearly all rape cases mentioned in this article are sub judice except few like in Nirbhaya case accused is convicted and sentenced. Even greatest lawyers and public personalities don't comment anything on matter which is sub judice, how we can write it publicly on wikipedia? Everyone has access to wikipedia easily, does things written here about that case should taken as proof in court? --Human3015 13:42, 23 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding undated comment added 10:35, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked and the cases I looked up all have final court actions, but it has not been updated in the Wikipedia page. So if the only reason some want for removal is the conclusion then instead of deleting just find a updated reference and update it properly. But aside from that Wikipedia is not a court. If things were only posted when the person was found guilty then OJ Simpsons page would be very much smaller. I don't see any major issue with the current Rape of foreigners section other than it needs to be updated. A simple Google search showed the conclusions of these cases with verifiable and good reference quite easy. Resaltador (talk) 13:48, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Have you compared the amount of notability with each other? These cases(one of many) are not as notable compared to what happened with OJ Simpsons. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 14:05, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I did, that is why I was surprised such a small part had so many trying to remove it. The rapes as a total had such a weight in India that tourism dropped by a considerable and measurable amount. The OJ case was mostly isolated to the US and had little to no measurable effect on tourism or business. So comparing the 2; the rapes in India, esp against tourist, is much larger and has more world wide notability. Resaltador (talk) 14:22, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Resaltador @OccultZone, see despite few incidences of rapes on foreigners, tourism is not declined in India but its increased according to figures of 2014. http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-cm/foreign-tourist-arrivals-to-india-rises-7-1-to-74-62-lakh-in-2014-115010701024_1.html . These are figures of entire year. So rapes are not affecting tourism in India. can we add a subsection in "rapes of foreigner" named Effect on Tourism? we can add these figures from different sources and government publications in 2-3 lines. --Human3015 18:42, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for providing the rebuttal. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 17:06, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually tourism has only slightly increased recently and that was after India had to take sharp measures after the international stories of rape. India went from only allowing 12 nations access to the visa on arrival program to 43. Even with such measures tourism has only increased in the single digits. http://qz.com/329397/no-tourists-arent-exactly-thronging-to-india-since-modi-launched-visa-on-arrival/ So tourism is still weak in India even after their current measures and increasing spending on advertising outside of India to lure tourist. It shows that these measures and extra spending are still being hampered by the stories of Rape, esp against tourist. Resaltador (talk) 17:49, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Resaltador : your given website also accepts that tourism in India is increased. anyways, you said tourism increased by 'single' digit in India, anyway its increased single digit in all the over world, http://media.unwto.org/press-release/2014-09-15/international-tourism-5-first-half-year tourism in USA, UK, Canada, Australia also increased in single digits. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-logs-10-rise-in-foreign-tourist-arrivals/articleshow/45529904.cms This Times of India news talks about issue of women safety in India and yet inform us that tourism in India increased by 10% between may-oct2014. It is obvious that tourism is not dropped in India. Whatever maybe the effect of rapes on tourism we must write it in article by creating sub section Effect on Tourism. --Human3015 18:42, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First draft

@Padenton, OccultZone, Zhanzhao, Human3015, and Resaltador: I've written up a first draft and it is in the article. I've put the material in a stand-alone section called, "Tourist advisories". I've tried to limit it to "tourist only" information. I've tried to account for many of the concerns that have been expressed. Please suggest any changes. Bgwhite (talk) 21:10, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Bgwhite:: nicely written draft, Can we add further info that foreign tourist arrival is increased in India? According to "Ministry of Tourism" of India, India logs 10% rise in foreign tourist arrival between May to Oct 2014 . As per NPOV policy, we neither can be pro-India nor anti-India. we are neither discouraging nor encouraging tourism in India, but i think we should write both sides. There are few other reports which talks about increase in foreign tourists in India. --Human3015 21:42, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Human3015: I previously removed that tourism visits were dropping as that wasn't supported by the refs. I think the refs are saying that tourism in India isn't at the levels of its neighbors to the east and rapes are one of the many reasons why. Tourism is increasing, but that is probably more of an economic reason. I've changed the article to say that rapes are only one of the many reasons that have tourism officials worried. As the article currently stands, I don't see it having a pro or con sentiment. It doesn't say tourism is decreasing or increasing.

Article you gave states tourism was down 35% in 2013, but now it is up 10% over 2013 levels. That is still less tourists than before, thus tourism is still being affected by rapes and other reasons.

If added, it would be along the lines, "Tourism suffered a 35% drop in 2013, with the rape crisis being the main reason given for the drop. Tourism has since rebounded in 2014 with a 10% increase over 2013 levels, but still has recovered to the pre-rape crisis levels." Bgwhite (talk) 22:25, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Concerns are mostly over the case of 2009, it involves a living person. We can probably find any other case and think of a broader section regarding the tourist advisories. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 22:42, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Once we hear from Padenton regarding these new edits and listing the allegations. We have also got another option, we can go for a RfC regarding the listing of incidents. Thanks. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 23:02, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think the examples I gave are after 2011. They are public court cases found in public newspapers. Article doesn't state names or guilt/innocence of people involved. Cases given also tie into tourist advisories. Danish case, people were found guilty. Russian case concerns more what an MP said. This has nothing to do with BLPCRIME. Bgwhite (talk) 23:15, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Bgwhite:: I'm agree with your last sentence, if other readers and you are agree with it then you can add it to article. I want to suggest one change in that sentence.

instead of using word "rape crisis" we can use word "Nirbhaya case" or "2012 delhi gang rape case", my given article don't blame "rape crisis" for 2013 drop in tourism but it blames only "2012 delhi gang rape case". Even Indian Finance Minister says that, Nirbhaya case hits tourism.

It maybe perception that India has "rape crisis" but this article itself tells that there are only 24,000 reported cases of rape in India yearly, while USA(1/4th population of India) reports nearly 85,000. USA also has 80% unreported cases according to estimates of National research council of USA. We should not use word rape crisis because its not the reason behind drop of tourism in 2013-14 but its the Delhi case which made that drop.

I suppose to not mention about USA here but still i mentioned just to clearify about rape crisis, I can give links about that but that is not issue here, we are talking about India. --Human3015 23:08, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Human3015 How about, "after a few high profile rape cases" instead of "rape crisis".?? Bgwhite (talk) 23:18, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Bgwhite: : yes, I agree on using word "after few high profile rape cases". Now we have to see concern of other people. Thank you. --Human3015 23:28, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to keep you guys waiting. These revisions look great to me, thanks for helping us with this Bgwhite ― Padenton |☎  02:37, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Seconded, its great to have new eyes and keyboards on this. Though for Russian examples, if we want to get around the "alleged rape" issue, there was another notable case that resulted in a successful and fast conviction, and was reportedly part of the escalation of Russia's reactionary stance and advisory changes (its covered in the 1st link). Just thought this might help if "not yet convicted so its just an allegation" is still an issue. Would also like to point out that for quite a number of the cases, they have been dragging on in the courts for years I.e. The Scarlett Keeling case was committed way back in 2008 and they are still holding trial over it. That's why one of aftermaths of the 2012 Delhi Rape was a promise to create fast track courts to deal with cases of sexual offences against women. Just some FYI for context sake. Zhanzhao (talk) 03:43, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Zhanzhao, a couple of issues. The Russian example is more about the politician's reaction and not the rape case. The link about the 9-year old Russian girl still mentions the Russian rape case in the article and another rape case. The second link contains info on alot of rape cases. Links won't help get around "alleged rape" issue.

Occult's issue with "living" people and "alleged rape" is unfounded. The 2009 case involved a politician and was well publicized. BLPLIVING says, "For relatively unknown people" and this is not a case of relatively unknown. We are also not mentioning any names. I think Occult is the only one with this issue and it appears consensus has gone against him.

Your second link listing various rapes of foreigners would make a good addition to the article. However, that would be another fight I'm not willing to take up. Bgwhite (talk) 05:35, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No probs, Bgwhite, just trying to help cos it seems that everything's on your shoulders now. The 2 links I found was just from a rough search on the net. Not gonna be very active at the present (real life beckons) but I'm just glad to see more people being involved and actually debates instead of just "wham-bam-revert-you-mam cowboyism" (Something that admittedly/unfortunately even I am guilty of in a moment of hotheadedness :P) Zhanzhao (talk) 06:22, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bgwhite there was issue with the previous version that you have totally changed now and removed the names of the individuals. BLPCRIME is no more a issue. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 05:41, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

here i want to raise a issue that some notorious unregistered users making a issue out of non-issue,(specially 72.196.235.154). Issue of rape is very much sensitive and here anyone is adding anything without discussing it here on talk(maybe because of some vested interests). They are making changes and then asking to discuss here. Unregistered users are probably new so they don't know much about policies of Wikipedia. So I demand that only registered users should be allowed to edit this page(that too after discussing on talk). No one owns the page. Page should have NPOV. This is my perspective and it can be wrong. @Bgwhite:. --Human3015 02:47, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There's WP:RPP if you want to make a request, but I don't see how it'll be useful. The IP will just use their newly created account to do it. (or their main account) Also, it seems to me that whatever their faults, 72.196.235.154 is aware of the policies of Wikipedia, even if they go against them. I'm skeptical of a new IP knowing how to place warning templates. I really do hope we don't have to start discussing every single change in here first though... ― Padenton|✉   03:08, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I actually made a request directly on BGwhite'w page, the admin who previously protected the page. Although its for selfish reasons since I don't want people thinking that its me socking again. I'm talking a wikibreak from editing but still frequent here for informational purpose so I saw this. But if Bgwhite does not, (since the situation is currently not that crazy yet), monitor it for a few more edits and ask him again. Didn't realise this page was such a hotbed for edit wars. Just don't get too embroiled into it to avoid what happened last time. Zhanzhao (talk) 03:56, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We might be sure that who is 72.196.235.154, and I know that 49.244.254.146 comes from a heavily abused extension. Check User talk:Ponyo#49.244.239.31. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 03:59, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Restored Human's version, it is pretty undue to discuss about the ethics of underreporting on a specific country related rape article when you have got a stand alone Under-reporting. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 04:15, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Page protected for two weeks. This is sure not fun. Today was the local Holi Festival and they were expecting 75,000. Didn't go this year, but last year was fun. Bgwhite (talk) 06:19, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've now protected the page so only admins can edit it for two weeks. IP/Person appears to not want to talk before changing material. Bgwhite (talk) 08:30, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Aha! So this is the section you've been talking about this issue in, I kept checking the section above under ==Lead section== and didn't see any responses. Please, can you talk me through the rationale for not warning the reader about the problems with international comparisons of rape statistics? It's in the lead section of the article after all, and the first hit on Google if you Google Rape in India, so a lot of people are going to see this section. Bargolus (talk) 12:23, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Sir/Madam,

I have repeatedly tried to edit the introduction to the Rape in India article due to its repetitiveness, its misleading nature and its bad grammar. The initial text read as follows:

The incidence of reported rapes in India are among the lowest in the world.[5] However parliamentarians have expressed concern that majority of rape cases go unreported.[6] Compared to other developed and developing countries, reported rapes per 100,000 people are quite low in India.[7] India has been characterized as one of the "countries with the lowest per capita rates of rape".[8]

As the text stands, we are making the same point three times "incidence of reported rapes in India are amongst the lowest in the world...compared to other developed and developing countries, reported rapes per 100,000 people are quite low in India... India has been characterized as one of the "countries with the lowest per capita rates of rape"", it contains grammatical errors, it says "concern that majority of rape" when it should be "concern that THE majority of rape cases" and it is highly misleading because you are comparing a country where the majority of the population lives in rural areas with no tradition of crime solution via the courts (instead they have informal village chiefs who do not register their cases with any official body), high rates of female illiteracy and lack of awareness of legal rights and a culture of shaming women who are raped by blaming them for the rape and in cases of inter-caste rape often excommunicating them. Finally, marital rape is not a crime in India and so marital rapes are not even registered in the crime statistics of India. To compare such statistics with e.g. reported rates of rape in Sweden, where the law is much stricter on rape, enforcement and court action is the standard expected route, legal literacy is high and marital rape is criminalised is highly misleading and the public deserves to be notified of the misleading nature of such a comparison. As a result, I edited the lead-in paragraph to read:

"Compared to other developed and developing countries, the number of reported rapes per 100,000 people are quite low in India,[5] and India has been characterized by some as one of the countries with the lowest per capita rates for rape.[6][7] However parliamentarians have expressed concern that the majority of rape cases go unreported.[8] Criminologists have warned that comparing reported rape rates across countries can be highly misleading due to the significance of underreporting, and the fact that the rate of underreporting can be vastly different between countries.[9]"

Providing a link to a WSJ article that explains some of the problems with comparing rape statistics across countries using reported rapes. Indeed, domestic violence surveys like the WHO ten country study show India to be in the middle and the National Family Health Survey conducted by the government shows a life time prevalence sexual violence of 8.5% among 19-49 year-olds which is way higher than the rate of reported rapes. However, instead of responding to the points I made on the talk page under the ==Lead-in== section, the page has now been put on full protection and blocked for "vandalism". If we cannot even have a conversation about this widespread societal problem without immediate blocking, I don't know if I am comfortable with the direction in which Wikipedia is now heading...

Best wishes

Bargolus (talk) 11:58, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Bargolus: : Thanks for discussing on talk, you suppose to discuss on talk before keep on "undoing". See, you said "lower incidence of rape' and 'low per capita rape' are same and repetition of things, thats not true. Its like saying that" 'low GDP' and 'Lower per capita income' are same and shows nation is poor." Norway's GDP is far lower India but per capita income is far higher than India.

Same way if country "A" has 50,000 rapes, country "B" has 100,000 rapes, then 'incidence' is more for B but when we divide it with population then it will give 'per capita rapes, if B has huge population then its per capita rapes will be lesser than A. So don't argue that its same wording, these are entirely different things.

secondly, its big argument that India's % of unreported cases is higher than developed nations, but Study Finds, Rape Is Grossly Underreported In The U.S.,, Unreported rapes: the silent shame for UK , these article shows rape is grossly unreported in developed countries.

So point is 'incidences of reported rapes' are low in India than West, 'Per capita rapes are low in India than west", "% of unreported cases are maybe same like west if we consider rape is grossly unreported in India too like in west', in all such cases there is no point in specifically pointing on India for rape when its actually a global problem. see sexual violence against women remains endemic in the United States.

But here we are not doing any 'world war', we just have to be neutral. We all are Humans.

All above articles belongs to Huffington post, The Independent of UK and The New York Times. While both US articles mentions survey of US government.

So there is no point in your arguments @Bargolus:, I have not done PhD in English literature but still I can say that current version don't has any grammatical mistakes as you claim. Those are different terminologies. Have a good time. Thanks. --Human3015 13:21, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ah this is great! Someone responded! Thanks for your points Human, I can see you have thought this through before. Sorry, I did not know that we had to have a consensus on here first - when people kept mentioning a consensus I couldn't find any on the talk page and I was wondering where it was. Anyways, it is a protected article now and we can't make any edits. In the mean time, I will think a bit more about your points before responding in more depth.

For now, as you say, rape is an endemic problem in many countries, both developed and developing. However, because rape is a problem in many countries and underreporting is potentially a big problem in many countries does not mean that rape statistics are automatically comparable. You know how in statistics, we have to drill into stats students again and again that absence of evidence for a difference does not mean evidence for the absence of a difference. In the same way, just because we have huge systematic errors potentially in both the US and India and we don't have a strong evidence for a difference in magnitude of systematic errors does not mean that we can automatically assume that the systematic errors have exactly the same magnitude. This makes it extremely problematic to compare reported rape statistics between countries. On the other hand, we CAN reduce the amount of variation in systematic error between countries by using standardized surveys such as the WHO multi-country domestic violence report or the Demographic Health Survey indicators that are routinely conducted across multiple countries on Earth in a standardized manner.

In terms of incidence/per capita rape, this may be a difference in our use of terminology. I was thinking in terms of "incidence risk" which is the risk of a single woman experiencing rape within a pre-specified time span, whereas "incidence rate" is what you are talking about, the total number of rapes aggregated over all women over a single time span. However, in that case, I think we should add the life-time prevalence of sexual violence reported in surveys like the DHS in India which puts lifetime prevalene of sexual violence at 8.5%. I am concerned that less well-educated people reading this article will conclude from quite misleading statistics that there is no need to fight for women's rights in India, which is opposite to the reality on ground. It also hurts India's economy as women's risk of rape prevents women from engaging in many public activities such as taxi-driving, waiting in restaurants and working in shops out of fear (yes there are plenty of women doing these jobs, but the potential is greatly reduced compared to what it could be). Bargolus (talk) 13:46, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Another big point I wanted to make with the change is that we think we can let "numbers speak for themselves" and it's more objective to put out numbers than to put out words. This is also a big misconception - as they say "Garbage In Garbage Out", if you put in non-sensical numbers they can be just as misleading as words. Rape statistics, particularly reported rape statistics, are widely known to be extremely crude approximations to reality and it would probably be a more accurate statement to simply leave it at "Rape is endemic in India as in elsewhere in the world" without muddling up the reader with misleadingly reassuring statistics. But if we insist on keeping the numbers there, the reader should be pointed to the Wall Street Journal article at least in order to understand the implications of using the statistics. After all, the article is about Rape in India, it's not about Rape Statistics in India and at the moment, the introduction is entirely focused on the statistics rather than any other aspect of the problem such as societal sanction, meanings of rape, women's mobilization, the sexual politics of rape etc. etc. Bargolus (talk) 14:06, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Bargolus:, now you are exposing yourself, means when survey shows that US has endemic problem of rape and rape is grossely unreported in US, then according to you it has "systematic error" even if its done by US government. But when any survey shows bad figures for India then according to you it doesn't has any "systematic error". See brother, I don't wanna argue with anymore. Its your personal opinion that US government surveys has "systematic error" but sorry wikipedia doesn't work "personal opinions" specially when article is sensitive. Act like human being, think beyond your small world.

Anyway, our personal survey showed that you have multiple sock puppets, and this article is highly hit by sock puppetry. --Human3015 14:13, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Those who understands this article would know better. Zhanzhao had expressed his desire to "I'll still add a one liner about many of the rape being unreported though",[6] and he had pointed thiscontribution of himself to be legible. Obvious that he is just pushing that point but with other accounts. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 14:26, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

User:Padenton you mentioned that surveys are not more accurate than reported cases of rape. But clearly if you ask the same question of women in two different countries using a standardized methodology you'll get more accurate estimates than if you rely on cases reported to the police if e.g. marital rape counts as rape in one country, but no in the other? It is a general principle of epidemiological surveillance that standardized, special-purpose surveys are more reliable than routine data which is full of noise and subject to all kinds of incentive-distortions since those same data are usually used as performance indicators simultaneously for the department responsible for that sector. I would be very interested in hearing what arguments you have that a well-conducted standardized survey would yield worse data than routine crime reports from differentially functioning police departments.Bargolus (talk) 14:30, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

− Regarding grammar, the sentence should definitely read "THE majority of rape cases". I know it is difficult, because in Hindi there are no articles and "THE majority" and "majority" are the same word in Hindi, Adhikansh, but in English you need an article in that sentence, otherwise it is Hinglish ;) Bargolus (talk) 14:30, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Human, I would never in a million years argue that rape is not a huge problem in the US or the UK or any other developed country, don't misunderstand me. And I absolutely loved the times when I live in India, I have no ulterior motive against India. I know there has been a lot of worry about foreign intervention and the effect of this whole rape debate on the image of India and its tourist industry. But we must work on improving conditions for women in India (as well as in the US and the UK) regardless of the political climate, because women's rights are one of those topics that will ALWAYS be framed as foreign intervention and "our women" should be hidden from public scrutiny. Rape and women's development will improve in India with time, but we are still at a very basic level of awareness regarding women's issues and these male instinctive reactions to any critical inquiry are very damaging. Regarding your accusations of sockpuppetry, I will choose to just ignore them for now, because it seems I have very little ability of convincing people otherwise on an anonymous Internet when no-one is man enough to talk to me eye-to-eye. I could play the same game on you, if I wanted to and accuse you of sockpuppetry, but that would be utterly pointless - we're here on Wikipedia for the sake of quality arguments over substantive issues not for the sake of any personal glorification. Bargolus (talk) 14:30, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]