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→‎top: Fixed WikiProject template(s) to remove page from Category:WikiProject templates with unknown parameters or a sub-category, plus general fixes
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== Recent changes ==

This text [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany&action=historysubmit&diff=456578776&oldid=456483097] is totally misleading. There were ''no'' hospital reports about 2 million rapes, and the eruption of the abortion numbers was not due to the rapes. All statistics is based on the fact that 1,156 "Russian children" were born in the Berlin area. The number of 100,000 raped women was obteined based solely on that fact, and on the general assumptions about the percentage of successful abortions, the probablility of pregnancy after the rape, and similar general information. The number of 2 million rapes in Germany as whole was obtained based on ''extrapolation'' of the Berlin data assuming that the rape frequency was similar in the rest parts of Germany. In any event, it is quite necessary to remember that all estmates are based on 1,156 "Russian children".--[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 17:05, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
: As I recall "2,000,000" is Breevor's number for number of German women and girls raped by the Red Army, the calculation of which scholars have deemed to be "impeccable," and which is, furthermore, widely referenced in other sources. When I have a chance I'll look it up and put that in, along with text appropriately representing the source. [[User:Vecrumba|P<small>ЄTЄRS</small> <s>J</s> V]]<small> ►[[User_talk:Vecrumba|TALK]]</small> 18:18, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
: Looking back, there appear to be sufficient references as it is for the 2,000,000 #. I'll read more closely when I have a chance. [[User:Vecrumba|P<small>ЄTЄRS</small> <s>J</s> V]]<small> ►[[User_talk:Vecrumba|TALK]]</small> 18:20, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
::This calculations have been criticised (you can find the quotes in the talk page archives), and therefore, by no means are "impeccable". Try to read the sources more closely. If you have no access to them, try to look through the talk page archives: the procedure that has been used by Sander&Johr (the only attempt to do any objective estimate) was described by me (I provided a full quote from their book).--[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 02:13, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

:I apologize, I appear to have reworded things incorrectly. I agree with what has been said here. However, the paragraph still reads: "estimates of the numbers of German women raped by Soviet soldiers in Berlin alone is around 2 million," which is incorrect according to several of the sources I read. Even if it was, the second sentence following it, which reads: "At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin," struck me immediately as confusing and in disagreement with the first quote. More comprehensible and/or accurate may be to say something to the effect of: "At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin alone [by Soviet soldiers(?)], based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports, although broader estimates place the number of women raped closer to 2 million." But again, 2 million seems to be the approximate estimate German Reich-wide or German Reich-wide only by Soviet soldiers. [[User:GTSDurango|GTSDurango]] ([[User talk:GTSDurango|talk]]) 01:50, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
::Thank you for pointing at this inconsistency. As far as I know, the number of 2 million rape in Berlin is not supported by the sources used. Thus, [http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/berlin_01.shtml BBC] tells that "''it is estimated that up to two million German women were raped during the last six months of World War Two, around 100,000 of them in Berlin. ''". Heineman (The hour of woman) says "''Estimates of the numbers of rapes at the hands of Soviet soldiers range widely, from the tens of thousands to 2 million''", however, she speaks about Germany as whole, not about the Berlin area. In other words, the words "in Berlin alone" should be removed.--[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 02:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

:::Agreed. Between yourself and [[User:Zloyvolsheb|Zloyvolsheb]], it appears the necessary edits have been made. [[User:GTSDurango|GTSDurango]] ([[User talk:GTSDurango|talk]]) 20:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

::::While a little progress has been made, this article excessively contextualizes rape by the Red Army and even engages in [[victim blaming]]. The article abandons any pretense of neutrality by engaging counter-argument upon counter-argument in an obvious attempt to categorically discredit accusations against the Red Army. It is telling that no similar arguments are included about rapes by other Allied Powers. Russian/Soviet voices denying the rapes are given ample room (including charming anecdotes about the humanitarian spirit of the Red Army), but not a single quote from a single woman/rape victim is included - They are completely erased! Mind you, along with the rapes the Red Army committed in Poland, Hungary, upon concentration camp survivors, and even in the Soviet Union, the fact that the rapes occurred ''en masse'' is not considered controversial among mainstream historians. This article deliberately hides that fact - it's like reading an article on evolution written by [[creationists]]. With its excessive contextualization and erasure of women's voices, this article is nothing short of offensive. Given the extreme lack of importance the article places on women's testimony, is probably no coincidence that all the recent editors appear to be males.[[User:Udibi|Udibi]] ([[User talk:Udibi|talk]]) 03:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
:::::By contextualizing the rapes committed by the Red Army, the article simply follows what the reliable sources say. There is no reason to discredit accusations against the Red Army, it is sufficient just to explain that (i) the massive rapes had been perpetrated by the army that bore the major brunt of the WWII, (ii) that the rapists had been previously been the witnesses (or even the victims) of much more brutal crimes committed by Wehrmacht/SS, (iii) the relatives or friends of almost every rapist were either killed, expelled, raped, or deprived of their homes by the Germans. None of these conditions are applied to the armies of the Western allies, and by omitting them we commit the sine against historical truth.
:::::Re victim blaming, taking into account the "i-iii" listed by be, it is hard to tell who was a victim and who has to be blamed.--[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 03:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::Now even the discussion attempts to further contextualize and diminish the Red Army's crimes! The Red Army's crimes remain crimes - there is ''always'' a context and a reason for any crime committed by anyone. What Wehrmacht or SS soldiers did or did not do ''in no way'' justifies or sufficiently contextualizes-away rapes committed against women aged 8 (and lower) to 80+. Unfortunately that is what this article in its present form attempts to do. On top of that, this article about rape gives no voice to the raped and only offers voices of the perpetrators that dismiss the accusations. It's rather perverse, [[misogynistic]], and revisionist. A more appropriate, balanced, and meaningful way to tackle this topic would be to give a straight-forward account of the wide-spread rapes/violence by the Red Army, including accounts from various women/victims. ''After'' that, background/context should be given to help understand ''why'' this happened, but never in a way that implies that crimes do not remain crimes. In addition, a section on Soviet/Russian ways of interpreting/handling on the violence/rapes would be informative as well. In its current form, this article does Wikipedia a disservice and is yet another example of a biased and amateurish account of history that cements Wikipedia's reputation as an unreliable source of information. It is ''only'' by tackling these types of issues effectively that the Wikipedia community can prove it can be a viable source of information.[[User:Udibi|Udibi]] ([[User talk:Udibi|talk]]) 05:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::I also find it interesting that the article, like most such articles on Wikipedia, ''only'' seems to approach this topic in terms of nationality. There are so many ways to define people; nationality is but one of dozens (and more) that apply to any one person. On a tangential note, but I think it helps illustrate my point, in bombing Germany during the war, British and American forces deliberately targeted working class neighborhoods in large cities in order to kill as many civilians as possible. Ironically, in doing so, they were targeting "districts [that] were the heart of anti-Nazi resistance in anti-Nazi cities like Hamburg."<ref>http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/01/the-wartime-toll-on-germany/2661/</ref> How does the argument that attempts to contextualize-away the rapes by the Red Army look in that kind of light? Other than originating in the same country (or not in the case of many immigrants, prisoners, etc), what direct correlation is there between crimes committed by Wehrmacht and SS soldiers (who also could be from various countries, btw) that directly explains why raping girls, women, and old ladies (who may or may not have even been of German ethnicity) is a justifiable act?[[User:Udibi|Udibi]] ([[User talk:Udibi|talk]]) 06:06, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
:::::::Reliable sources do contextualize the rapes. And explaining the reasons behind those rapes doesn't mean the moral justification, (i.e. it is about why that happened, and not about that being "a right thing to do"). Crimes remain crimes, but it is necessary to understand why they happened. [[User:Greyhood|<font color="darkgrey">Grey</font><font color="grey">Hood</font>]] [[User talk:Greyhood|<font color="black"><sup>Talk</sup></font>]] 19:13, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::::What I have put forth is that it is fine to contextualize - ''everything'' in history should be contextualized. My problem is that this article contextualizes through and through, so much so that the history and the facts themselves are lost. It would be more appropriate, accurate, and proper for the issue to be presented factually at first and ''then'' have a context. Again, the fact that this article is highly misogynistic seems to be lost on my fellow editors. All anyone seems to see is justification that makes it all fine. Instead of history, we're getting history-infused versions of classic rapist's excuses such as "She was asking for it!", "I was drunk", "She's just a whore anyhow", "She had it coming!", and worse. Moreover, my fellow editors also willingly forget that the Red Army did these same rapes against women throughout Eastern Europe - so Nazi crimes in the USSR only offer a partial, incomplete context/explanation in the first place.[[User:Udibi|Udibi]] ([[User talk:Udibi|talk]]) 19:51, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
----
''Now even the discussion attempts to further contextualize and diminish the [[Moral equivalency|Red Army's crimes]]! The [[Moral equivalency|Red Army's crimes remain crimes]] - there is ''always'' a [[Punishment|context and a reason]] for any crime committed by [[Victim|anyone]]. What [[Nazi|Wehrmacht or SS soldiers]] did or did not do ''in no way'' justifies or sufficiently contextualizes-away rapes committed against [[Nazi|women aged 8 (and lower) to 80+]]. Unfortunately that is what this article in its present form attempts to do. On top of that, this article about rape gives no voice to the [[Nazi|raped]] and only offers voices of the perpetrators that dismiss the accusations. It's rather perverse, [[Antifa|misogynistic]], and revisionist. [[Holocaust Denial|A more appropriate, balanced, and meaningful]] way to tackle this topic would be to give a straight-forward account of the wide-spread [[Punishment|rapes/violence]] by the Red Army, including accounts from various [[Nazi|women/victims]]. ''After'' that, background/context should be given to help understand ''why'' this happened, but never in a way that implies that crimes do not remain crimes. In addition, a section on [[Russian|Soviet/Russian]] ways of interpreting/handling on the violence/rapes would be informative as well. In its current form, this article does Wikipedia a disservice and is yet another example of a biased and amateurish account of history that cements Wikipedia's reputation as an unreliable source of information. It is ''only'' by tackling these types of issues effectively that the Wikipedia community can prove it can be a viable source of information.[[User:Udibi|Udibi]] ([[User talk:Udibi|talk]]) 05:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)''

:: I would like to point out that the links that have been inserted into this illustrate EXACTLY and explicitly the POV that this article, in its current form, rams down readers' throats. Namely, the rapes were justified punishment, all Germans were Nazis (soldiers and civilians, adults and small children alike), any attempt to delve deeper into the issue is tantamount to Holocaust denial and equal to denying misdeeds by Germany and the Axis. This is nothing short of extremist spin. It is very easy to blow these assertions out of the water - for one, it is a simple fact that the Red Army's rampage affected all the nations of Eastern Europe, civilians, refugees, and even holocaust victims in Axis and Allied countries alike. This article needs drastic revision.[[User:Udibi|Udibi]] ([[User talk:Udibi|talk]]) 09:37, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

'''Re: [[User:Udibi|Udibi's]] profoundly a-historical suggestion.'''

Contextualizing the supposed ''crimes'', as claimed by Udibi, is not the same thing as diminishing those acts of punishment inflicted on the Nazis for murdering 20,000,000 people. I find his reference to SS Paramilitary as ''soldiers'' to be deeply disturbing, a-historical, ill-informed, and suspicious, as SS Paramilitaries were not soldiers and were not even part of the military. While Nazi acts of genocide do not in themselves justify rape, they make it very understandable why people who assisted in the worst mass murder in history were punished by the surviving victims. Related, the Nazis were very popular and had massive support from the population, who in turn offered no resistance to the Nazi regime; he who keeps silent consents; these women were therefore active supporters of the Holocaust. It would not have been difficult for them to fight against the Nazis in some way, and they should not receive sympathy for not doing so and allowing 20,000,000 people to be murdered. I really see no problem of revisionism here. I recommend that other editors be very wary of this proposal to create a self proclaimed ''more appropriate, balanced, and meaningful way to tackle this topic'' as it may lead us to perpetuating the moral equivalency arguments of covert Holocaust deniers.

I think we also need to consider whether this is not just a case of hundreds of thousands of German women ''getting lucky'' with their liberators (a view shared by many Germans, described in The Fall of Berlin 1945) and then telling local Nazi leaders or Werewolf members that they were raped, in a regime where they could not openly have any sort of relationship with Russians.

--[[User Talk:Anonymiss Madchen|Anonyma Madchen]] 17:29, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

::Wow! That was disturbing. No wonder Wikipedia has no legitimacy on historical matters. You jump all over me for a liberal use of the word "soldiers" and then go on to say that rapes are "supposed "crimes"" and that the raped women, perhaps, merely ''"got lucky".'' Really? Really!? You have the audacity to make such profoundly insane, misogynistic, revisionist, sick-fantasy statements and then have the nerve to call my suggestions (basically that women should have a voice), a-historical. It is all so absurd and indefensible that I can only assume you are a troll and therefore worthy of nothing but being ignored.[[User:Udibi|Udibi]] ([[User talk:Udibi|talk]]) 19:41, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

:::First of all, I was only pointing out that your use of the term ''soldier'' was incorrect, and that it can lead to a general acceptance of the SS as legitmate soldiers, an already dangerously common view. I was not "jumping all over you" by providing a technical insight which is significant. And additionally, I '''never''' in any way called '''all''' rapes ''supposed crimes''; I simply pointed out that German women who viewed themselves as liberated from Nazism or war lived under a regime which would have deported them to concentration camps for having any sexual involvement with anyone considered untermenchlich, could have decided to reward or celebrate with the liberators and then obviously for their own protection claimed that they were raped when Nazis came asking about it. Additionally, they could have been Nazis, or related to Nazis, and would not have been able to confess [[Russophilia]]. Do you realize that I am a racially German girl living in the United States? The level of emotion in your personal attack demonstrates a level of fanatism that is very strange. I also never addressed '''and therefore never condemned you suggestion that women should have a voice.''' If that is something that you want, than it is on you to persue it; we are busy with our own research and cannot do yours for you. However, I will warn you that you should be very cautious about believing anything written by German women, as they may likely be Nazis, and will have a very biased approach to recording the mass rape by the Russians, and would likely outright exaggerate it; many Nazi women openly admit to Western historians that they greatly exaggerated the rape of the Red Army for pro Nazi and anti Communist causes for Gobbels.

:::I am not a Communist, nor ethnically Russian, so I do not understand why you think I am being ''revisonist''. If you have your own agenda, please share this with us.

:::I also advise you to aplogize for your personal attack, as I will be reporting you to ANI.

::::[[User:Anonymiss Madchen|Anonyma Madel]] 22:11, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

::: Re Anonymiss Madchen, you must be a nut case to make the statements you have. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/63.201.24.71|63.201.24.71]] ([[User talk:63.201.24.71|talk]]) 22:46, 17 February 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== "Tomb of Unknown Rapist" claim removed ==

It is regrettable that this "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist" insult is rearing its ugly head yet again even though on the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Soviet_War_Memorial_%28Treptower_Park%29 talk page] of the memorial it was demonstrated how problematic it is to insert such material in this encyclopedia. I have therefore removed this in accordance with [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE WP:UNDUE] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE#Due_and_undue_weight WP:FRINGE] . Only one result for this allegation shows up in Google Book search, and this source is a self-published book by someone who is not an expert on the topic. More importantly, there are zero results for this "Tomb of the unknown rapist" claim in the scholarly literature compiled by JSTOR. Professional journalistic work has been done showing that rather than insulting the Russian soldiers, large numbers of Germans actually express their gratitude for the [http://en.rian.ru/onlinenews/20040508/39915804.html "liberation of the German people from fascism on the Soviet war memorial in the Treptow park."] by laying flowers and wreaths as the Treptower monument. Chairwoman of the antifascist union of Treptow district, Ellen Hendler told a RIA Novosti correspondent, [http://en.rian.ru/onlinenews/20040508/39915804.html "We will never forget the feat of Soviet warriors who liberated not only their Motherland but the German nation too, as well as many European countries from the 'brown plague',"]

And what the monument depicts is documented, recorded historical fact about how a Russian soldier Nikolai Masalov and countless others like him risked his life to rescue a German child. All of this is completely irreconcilable with the alleged "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist" nickname with its crazy implication that the man it represents, Nikolai Masalov, was a rapist.

(p.25)
[http://books.google.com/books?id=GL-ORGoF3QsC&pg=PA24&dq=Treptower+park+masalov&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3QX9TsP7BKOGiQLR8eibDQ&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Treptower%20park%20masalov&f=false "The main statue is by Soviet sculptor Yevgeny Vuchetich. The 13m tall monument is of a Russian soldier holding a child, with a sword over a broken swastika. The inspiration for the monument was Nikolay Masalov, a Soviet soldier who saved a German girl whilst under fire."]

There is a similar story about the heroism of another Russian soldier Sergeant Trifon Lukyanovich
[http://books.google.com/books?id=g5mnRAAACAAJ&dq=great+march+of+liberation&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fAL9TurfFMrkiALCnvTKDg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA During a fierce encounter with SS troops defending one side of Eisenstrasse near Tiergarten, Soviet soldiers heard a child's wail coming from a wrecked transformer pillar. Moved by the plaintive cry Sergeant Trifon Lukyanovich crawled to the pillar and there he saw a pathetic picture: a flaxen-haired girl was crying bitterly on the breast of her dead mother. He tore the girl away from the corpse and though wounded himself managed to carry her to safety.]

So not only is the "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist" slander not substantiated by reliable sources, it is contradicted by professional journalists who have actually documented the sentiments of a significant portion of the German citizenry that pay tribute to the

:Still the notorious nickname exists. --[[User:Jaan|Jaan Pärn]] ([[User talk:Jaan|talk]]) 12:23, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

::No, it doesn't. See the relevant [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Soviet_War_Memorial_%28Treptower_Park%29 talk page] for the monument linked above, where consensus was established. The alleged nickname would have to be classified as fringe since it does not appear in any scholarly literature in the English language. This is while journalists confirmed the gratitude showed to Russians on the part of large sections of the German population, whose representatives lay flowers at the monument. The monument itself represents a documented historical fact about how a Russian soldier rescued a German girl, not an alleged rapist. Instead of disputing the issue here, see the talk page at the article for the memorial.
:::I'll give you that, the claim in its current form seems poorly sourced. Which means it should be re-designed to actually represent the abundance of cited sources. --[[User:Jaan|Jaan Pärn]] ([[User talk:Jaan|talk]]) 01:42, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

== Undue Weight ==

The section titled "Soviet Army" gives undue weight on the narrative of mass rape committed by the Russian soldiers. There are prominent citations of a journalist named Svetlana Alexievich. And this book describes flaws about her work:

[http://militera.lib.ru/research/dukov_ar/22.html Неудивительно, что к началу перестройки об истребительной войне, которую вели нацисты против всего нашего народа, забыли. Забыли, конечно, историки и политики. Народная память об ужасе нацистского геноцида еще была жива, и когда писательница Светлана Алексиевич собирала рассказы о минувшей войне, респонденты рассказывали ей такие подробности преступлений оккупантов, от которых можно сойти с ума. Алексиевич могла стать первым отечественным исследователем истребительной политики нацистов{784}. Однако поведанные ей рассказы она сделала символом не преступлений оккупантов, а абстрактных ужасов войны. Никто не спорит с тем, что любая война страшна; однако важно понять, что миллионы уничтоженных советских граждан — это жертвы хладнокровной политики обезлюживания, а не войны{785}.]

In addition, there are the controversial claims of Natalya Gesse mentioned in the article. But against this, there is only one citation of a Russian whose assessments of the behavior of his fellow soldiers completely contradict the above claims. I have therefore removed the Alexievich quotes because the following section sufficiently shows the conflicting sides of the issue: the arguments that Russian soldiers harmed people and Russian soldiers helped people.

''Natalya Gesse claimed that Russian soldiers raped German females from eight to eighty years old. Russian women were not spared either. In contrast, Russian war veteran Vsevolod Olimpiev recalled, "The Soviet soldiers' relations with the German population where it had stayed may be called indifferent and neutral. Nobody, at least from our Regiment, harassed or touched them. Moreover, when we came across an obviously starving German family with kids we would share our food with them with no unnecessary words."'' <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.51.169.69|75.51.169.69]] ([[User talk:75.51.169.69|talk]]) 01:02, 30 December 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Red army soldiers were the bulk of the rapists. Do you contend that? Please do not remove material before consensus here on the talk page. --[[User:Jaan|Jaan Pärn]] ([[User talk:Jaan|talk]]) 12:17, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
::See the relevant sources cited in the article, which dispute the mass rape narrative. The mass rape allegations originate from controversial sources published in the West, hotly disputed by Russian experts. Moreover, I never said anything about who or who was not a rapist, but merely questioned the quality and reliability of certain sources and the amount of weight given to each side. Please do not distort my argument with rhetorical questions about the occurrence rapes because that is not the issue I raised.<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.51.170.140|75.51.170.140]] ([[User talk:75.51.170.140|talk]]) 23:01, 30 December 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::Surely they are 'hotly disputed by Russian experts'... --[[User:Jaan|Jaan Pärn]] ([[User talk:Jaan|talk]]) 01:45, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

:::: I believe you mean "hotly disputed by Russian experts in disputing...". The plain facts are not in dispute. @75.51.170.140, personal accounts are neither representative of or an encyclopedic accounting of the whole. [[User:Vecrumba|P<small>ЄTЄRS</small> <s>J</s> V]]<small> ►[[User_talk:Vecrumba|TALK]]</small> 04:48, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

== Aleksievich ==

Whoever added the quotations found in Aleksievich's book has taken a very flawed approach toward the book. I found this book [http://nellyuvarova.ru/svetlanaaleksievitchuvojnynezhenskoelitso/pages_100.html online] and also [http://www.gumer.info/bibliotek_Buks/Fiction/Alekseevich/_WarsW.php here] and after briefly skimming through, the very same book that allegedly provides evidence to the rape narrative also contains the following quote below. I could not find the alleged quotes from this article in her book.

The book is also available in English via [http://books.google.com/books?id=bzlnAAAAMAAJ&q=war%27s+unwomanly+face&dq=war%27s+unwomanly+face&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hKT-TuKqEIOGiQLhmPmJDQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA Progress Publishers], which is only available on Google as a snippet. Interestingly, I was able to come up with a Google snippet of the English translation of the Russian text I found below, but was not able to do so for the quotes in the article, which is '''very suspicious'''.

Anyway, from Aleksievich's book:

<blockquote>Вспоминает Вера Павловна Бородина, младший сержант, телеграфистка: "Немцев пугали, что мы звери. Они топились, перерезали себе вены. Целыми семьями. Мы их отхаживали… Остановились в одном доме. Пусто. Хозяев нашли на чердаке — мать и дочь. Они повесились, потому что их убелили, что, как только придут русские, начнется изнасилование, грабеж, убийство, Сибирь, лагеря…И вдруг этого ничего нет! А им было известно, во что превращен Сталинград, во что превращена вся Россия, им показывали в кино. И они, конечно, предполагали, что все это начнется теперь на немецкой земле. Для них было удивительным отсутствие у нас мести</blockquote>

Neither Russian nor English is my first language, so I don't think too highly about my translating skills. This is what I came up with, which paints a completely different picture from the impression given in the very selective quotes found in this article.

<blockquote>''"Vera remembers a telegraph she got from Sergeant Borodin: "The Germans were afraid that we are animals. They cut their wrists and stoke - whole families. We stopped and searched a house - nothing. Then a mother and daughter were found in the attic. They were frightened about as soon as the Russians arrive, there will be rape, robbery, murder, Siberia, prisons. But suddenly, nothing! They knew what became of Stalingrad, which transformed into the whole of Russia - as they saw in the cinema. And of course, they imagined that the same thing would happen now on German soil. '''Our refusal to take revenge amazed them'''."'' </blockquote>

Whoever added the quotes from Aleksievich '''NEEDS TO READ THE BOOK''' and avoid misrepresenting its contents and the arguments advanced by Aleksievich, whose name seems to be unfairly blackened by this article, which led me to unfairly question her motives and outlook. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.51.170.140|75.51.170.140]] ([[User talk:75.51.170.140|talk]]) 05:42, 31 December 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Forget it. Target achieved. Dehumanization of Russians is needed to prop-up a new war effort, so it shall be done. Who would bother with truth these days ... [[Special:Contributions/46.13.56.75|46.13.56.75]] ([[User talk:46.13.56.75|talk]]) 14:33, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
::Since this controversy has not been cleared up, I will be replacing the non-existent quotes of Aleksievich's with the one that actually exists [And of course, they imagined that the same thing would happen now on German soil. Our refusal to take revenge amazed them] <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.96.6.245|99.96.6.245]] ([[User talk:99.96.6.245|talk]]) 08:28, 6 January 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Rapes committed by Polish troops ==


== Memoirs quotes ==
The article currently describes the rapes committed by American, French, and Soviet troops. The rapes committed by Polish troops, who took part in the occupation of Germany's eastern provinces, such as what is now [[Opole Silesia]], should also be discussed. The phenomenon is clearly discussed in scholarship, as seen from the following instances:


I noticed many quotes from memoirs describe behaviour of Soviet military is details. I am not sure that is encyclopedic. However, if we believe that is ok, I found several books and articles that were published only recently, but that contain similar storied about American GIs and other Allied troops. I am going to add them per NPOV. [[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 05:27, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
Naimark, Norman (1995). ''The Russians in Germany: A History of the Soviet Zone of Occupation, 1945-1949.'' Cambridge and London: Harvard University Press. pp. 75-76:


:If those books and articles "published only recently" are as reliable as sources used in the article, then yes, you can add them. If they're far-right or far-left propaganda aimed to whitewash either Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, then no. [[User:Pizzigs|Pizzigs]] ([[User talk:Pizzigs|talk]]) 15:16, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
{{Quotation|The desperate situation for German women in Silesia was in general exacerbated by the Poles, whose 'desire for retribution' was often as intense{{spaced ndash}}for very understandable reasons{{spaced ndash}}as that of the Russians. More often than not, the incoming Polish authorities were even less concerned about the safety of German women than were the Russian officers, to whom the German population turned for protection. . . . Even the Soviets expressed shock at the Poles' behavior. Polish soldiers, stated one report, 'relate to German women as to free booty.'}}
::None of these sources seem to be a propaganda or whitewash of anything. However, #1 is a personal memoir; it is reliably published, but author does not seem to be notable, hence arguably undue on the page. Same applies to all other personal memoirs by ''non-notable'' authors/participants of the events. A research summarizing and citing eyewitnesses would be fine. By contrast, #10 (history of urban warfare), for example, is a scholarly book and a good source. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 04:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC)


== 240,000 dead? ==
Jankowiak, Stanislaw (2001). "Cleansing Poland of Germans: The Province of Pomerania, 1945-1949". In Philipp Ther & Ana Siljak (Eds.), ''Redrawing Nations: Ethnic Cleansing in East-Central Europe''. Lanham, Md: Rowman & Littlefield. p. 89:


This is a claim that is being echoed elsewhere on the Internet, with this page as its apparent source. However, what is given as the source of this claim here is two entire books (one of them Befreiter und Befreite), without page numbers. Can we at least get page numbers, so that we can check the claim?
{{Quotation|Sadly, the rape of German women was one of the most common crimes, since the soldiers saw rape as a means to revenge the nightmares of Nazi occupation. Despite strict measures, rape was never entirely stamped out. In Pomerania, these actions caused conflicts with the Red Army, whose commanders often contested decision made by the Polish authorities.'}}


(In general, while rape is typically greatly underreported, corpses don't just disappear.) [[User:Feketekave|Feketekave]] ([[User talk:Feketekave|talk]]) 13:01, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
Gibney, Matthew J. & Randall Hansen (Eds.) (2005). ''Immigration and Asylum: From 1900 to Present''. Santa Barbara, USA, and Oxford, UK: ABL-CIO. p. 199:


== Beevor ==
{{Quotation|One young woman from Stettin watched Russian soldiers shoot her father and heard them rape her mother and sister as she hid. On a train to Berlin, she was raped by Russian soldiers, then by Polish soldiers, and saw a Polish soldier crush the head of a crying infant against a post while raping its mother.}}


This article extensively uses Beevor. However, according to Ericsson, Kjersti, and Eva Simonsen, (Children of World War II:
Fidelis, Malgorzata (2010). ''Women, Communism, and Industrialization in Postwar Poland''. New York: Cambridge University Press. p. 136:
The Hidden Enemy Legacy. New York: Berg. 2005 ISBN: 9781845202064, page 233) Beevor just takes the figures published by Sander&.
Ericsson&Simonsen say:
:"''...Beevor presented ostensibly new research on mass rapes. His figures, however, had been published in 1992 by the German team of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr''".
I am going to replace Beevor (and mass-media that cite him) with the original secondary source. [[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 02:32, 27 May 2023 (UTC)


== The US rape section does not accurately describe the larger estimate. ==
{{Quotation|After 1945, Poland acquired both the German and Polish parts of Upper Silesia. . . . In 1945, the Soviet and Polish armies chose to ignore the national and ethnic complexities of the region and treated the entire Upper Silesian population in much the same way as that of Germany. They destroyed Silesian infrastructure and robbed and raped their population.'}} [[User:Zloyvolsheb|Zloyvolsheb]] ([[User talk:Zloyvolsheb|talk]]) 21:16, 14 February 2012 (UTC)


Currently the page suggests that the estimate of 190,000 rapes by US troops is based on a known statistic that 5% of the births in the post-war period were the result of rapes by American troops. It also unnecessarily says that the figure is based on "extensive research" (all estimates are based on research of varying degrees of intensity), actively painting the other estimates as unreliable.
:Aside from the general problem of the fact that you're cherry picking quotes and sources (looks like you're doing a google searches and scraping anything relevant that pops up, just to dilute the Soviet role in the rapes, by trying to spread some of the blame onto Poles and Jews) there's problem with most of these sources individually:
*Naimark - as already discussed, Naimark is quoting a report by a German organization from Breslau. Check the archive for a discussion related to this source.
*Jankowiak is referring to the generally bad conditions under Soviet control.
*Hansen and Gibney - this source is actually by Hansen and Ohliger. First this is a ABC-CLIO publication, or in other words a tertiary source. Second Hansen's views are pretty controversial. Third this is quoting de Zayas who's also got a lot of baggage when it comes to this topic and who himself is quoting a contemporary tabloid - this is essentially sensationalism being pulled through a wringer of several authors to make it look semi-respectable in the end. I'm not familiar with Ohliger.
*Fidelis - This is a very general quote and it refers to "Soviet and Polish armies". At best it's unclear.[[User:Volunteer Marek|<font color="Orange">Volunteer</font><font color="Blue">Marek</font>]] 01:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
:I can't seem to find the discussion in archives you're talking about. I just pressed Ctr+F and typed in "Breslau" for Archive 1, Archive 2, and Archive 3, but nothing comes up. Norman Naimark is a very good historian at Stanford U. whose book is published by Harvard University Press, so please point out exactly what you're talking about. Jankowiak is clearly talking about Polish troops whose "actions caused conflicts with the Red Army." The other sources talk about the same and are merely provided to illustrate the phenomenon, but the source I actually had in mind using is Naimark. Please explain what report you are referring to and what your gripe with the excerpt provided is. Also, let's not sink to [[ad hominem]] attacks. Thanks. [[User:Zloyvolsheb|Zloyvolsheb]] ([[User talk:Zloyvolsheb|talk]]) 02:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
::Frankly speaking, I do not understand why quoting a report by a German organization makes Naimark unreliable or unacceptable. As far as I know, the data on the rapes committed by the Soviet troops also come mostly from the reports of German organisations.
::With regard to other quotes, I think most of them, as well as the quotes that are already present in the article, do not belong to it: we need to use much less emotional language. Emotional pressing is hardly relevant here, because otherwise we will need to use give a description of the historical context of those event (i.e. the WWII, especially, the German atrocities) at the same emotional level. I am not sure that would be correct.--[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 13:40, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
:::I am also of the opinion that cherry picking quotes in this article is unproductive. However I do believe that the article lacks background section, without it the occasional reader might be inclined to believe that these events were exceptional in WW2.
--[[User:MyMoloboaccount|MyMoloboaccount]] ([[User talk:MyMoloboaccount|talk]]) 20:51, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
::::I agree that cherry picking what should be put in (as well as left out of) the article is not helpful. This is why I propose using what is said by Naimark, a reliable secondary source. [[User:Zloyvolsheb|Zloyvolsheb]] ([[User talk:Zloyvolsheb|talk]]) 23:20, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


However, the source states that "Gebhardt said she arrived at that number of sexual assaults by estimating that of the so-called ‘war-children’ born to unmarried German women by the 1950s, five percent were products of rape.
== "In literature" section ==
She also estimates that for each birth, there were 100 rapes"


As such "5% of the births in the post war era" should be changed, and replaced with "based on an estimate that 5% of post-war births resulted from rapes, and an assumption of 100 rapes per birth."
The mentions of rape in [[David Brion Davis]]'s essay "The Americanization of Mannheim" and [[Elie Wiesel]]'s ''[[Night (book)|Night]]'' are discussed by historians in addition to Solzhenitsyn's poem in connection with the subject of war rape after WWII [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany&action=historysubmit&diff=477000559&oldid=476987950]. For this reason alone, it makes little sense to remove them if there is a separate section for "literature." The point is that Europeans were simply brutalized by six years of war and atrocity, so that post-war Germany was raped by soldiers from every side and even the displaced laborers originally brought to the Third Reich as slave labor. If somebody feels that the situation was otherwise, it should be discussed before removing. [[User:Zloyvolsheb|Zloyvolsheb]] ([[User talk:Zloyvolsheb|talk]]) 13:50, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


:Davis' essay refers to one single rape, which is [[WP:UNDUE]]. In my view this section should be deleted entirely as it doesn't add anything substantive to the topic. --[[User:Nug|Nug]] ([[User talk:Nug|talk]]) 20:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Given that the figure is nearly 20 times the size of previous estimates, it is especially important not to imply that this is a statistical fact that has been proven conclusively by research, which the page currently does. [[User:Crashbrennan|Crashbrennan]] ([[User talk:Crashbrennan|talk]]) 20:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
::I'm not sure that interpretation of the guideline happens to be the correct one, but okay -- and what more does Solzhenitsyn's mention of a rape in a poem add instead? Unless a reason for maintaining the apparent inconsistency is provided, I will remove him on the same rationale. [[User:Zloyvolsheb|Zloyvolsheb]] ([[User talk:Zloyvolsheb|talk]]) 23:16, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


== Favorable comparison and apologetic language + bias is out of place and should be removed ==
== A real Alexievich quote ==


The statement in the beginning of the "British troops" section trivializes the British crimes by comparing it to Soviet crimes, "while not on the scale of the Red Army in the Soviet Zone".
From Svetlana Alexievich's personal site.<br>http://alexievich.info/booksEN.html{{quotation|Junior Sergeant Vera Pavlovna Borodina, telegraph operator, recalls:<br>"The Germans were told that we were beasts to frighten them They drowned themselves or cut their veins, whole families at a time We nursed them back to health... Once we stopped in an empty house We found the owners a mother and daughter in the attic. Thet had hanged themselves, because they were convinced that, as soon as the Russians came, rape, pillage and murder would begin, that they would be sent to camps in Siberia.<br>"And then nothing of the kind happened! But they knew what Stalingrad had been fined into, what the whole of Russia had been turned into, they had been shown it in the cinema. And, of course, they imagined that the same thing would happen now on German soil. Our refusal to take revenge amazed them.<br>"On one occasion we looked into a house and wanted a cup of tea. Many houses were standing empty-the people had abandoned everything and fled. We began looking for cups, found a tea service and saw a familiar design-ears of wheat. The trade-mark read "Odessa, USSR". So we didn't have a cup of tea, after all..."|Svetlana Alexievich|The War's Unwomanly Face}}[[User:Gun Control|Gun Control]] ([[User talk:Gun Control|talk]]) 18:14, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Also the wording is apologetic, such as "some rapes were carried out by soldiers either suffering from post traumatic stress or who were drunk" (like other soldiers weren't suffering from stress, or being drunk provides an apology).
"However, he adds that probably referred to attacks by former slave labourers (displaced persons) seeking revenge" is also out of place in the section, because it should deal with the British crimes only.
The wording about "probably deserved it" is also not applied to Soviet or U.S. crimes. A clear bias in the section. [[Special:Contributions/46.138.32.56|46.138.32.56]] ([[User talk:46.138.32.56|talk]]) 21:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 21:06, 6 April 2024


Memoirs quotes[edit]

I noticed many quotes from memoirs describe behaviour of Soviet military is details. I am not sure that is encyclopedic. However, if we believe that is ok, I found several books and articles that were published only recently, but that contain similar storied about American GIs and other Allied troops. I am going to add them per NPOV. Paul Siebert (talk) 05:27, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If those books and articles "published only recently" are as reliable as sources used in the article, then yes, you can add them. If they're far-right or far-left propaganda aimed to whitewash either Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, then no. Pizzigs (talk) 15:16, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
None of these sources seem to be a propaganda or whitewash of anything. However, #1 is a personal memoir; it is reliably published, but author does not seem to be notable, hence arguably undue on the page. Same applies to all other personal memoirs by non-notable authors/participants of the events. A research summarizing and citing eyewitnesses would be fine. By contrast, #10 (history of urban warfare), for example, is a scholarly book and a good source. My very best wishes (talk) 04:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

240,000 dead?[edit]

This is a claim that is being echoed elsewhere on the Internet, with this page as its apparent source. However, what is given as the source of this claim here is two entire books (one of them Befreiter und Befreite), without page numbers. Can we at least get page numbers, so that we can check the claim?

(In general, while rape is typically greatly underreported, corpses don't just disappear.) Feketekave (talk) 13:01, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Beevor[edit]

This article extensively uses Beevor. However, according to Ericsson, Kjersti, and Eva Simonsen, (Children of World War II: The Hidden Enemy Legacy. New York: Berg. 2005 ISBN: 9781845202064, page 233) Beevor just takes the figures published by Sander&. Ericsson&Simonsen say:

"...Beevor presented ostensibly new research on mass rapes. His figures, however, had been published in 1992 by the German team of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr".

I am going to replace Beevor (and mass-media that cite him) with the original secondary source. Paul Siebert (talk) 02:32, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The US rape section does not accurately describe the larger estimate.[edit]

Currently the page suggests that the estimate of 190,000 rapes by US troops is based on a known statistic that 5% of the births in the post-war period were the result of rapes by American troops. It also unnecessarily says that the figure is based on "extensive research" (all estimates are based on research of varying degrees of intensity), actively painting the other estimates as unreliable.

However, the source states that "Gebhardt said she arrived at that number of sexual assaults by estimating that of the so-called ‘war-children’ born to unmarried German women by the 1950s, five percent were products of rape. She also estimates that for each birth, there were 100 rapes"

As such "5% of the births in the post war era" should be changed, and replaced with "based on an estimate that 5% of post-war births resulted from rapes, and an assumption of 100 rapes per birth."

Given that the figure is nearly 20 times the size of previous estimates, it is especially important not to imply that this is a statistical fact that has been proven conclusively by research, which the page currently does. Crashbrennan (talk) 20:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Favorable comparison and apologetic language + bias is out of place and should be removed[edit]

The statement in the beginning of the "British troops" section trivializes the British crimes by comparing it to Soviet crimes, "while not on the scale of the Red Army in the Soviet Zone". Also the wording is apologetic, such as "some rapes were carried out by soldiers either suffering from post traumatic stress or who were drunk" (like other soldiers weren't suffering from stress, or being drunk provides an apology). "However, he adds that probably referred to attacks by former slave labourers (displaced persons) seeking revenge" is also out of place in the section, because it should deal with the British crimes only. The wording about "probably deserved it" is also not applied to Soviet or U.S. crimes. A clear bias in the section. 46.138.32.56 (talk) 21:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany&diff=1217609293&oldid=493859314

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