The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page not moved: no consensus Ground Zero | t 16:49, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

August 2013 Rabaa Massacre → Rabaa and Nahda massacre – I have informed Jenks24 (who closed the previous RM) about my intention to start this request and I believe I have a green light for it.[1] Since the word massacre will obviously never be replaced in the title, I believe it is fair enough to at least make it factual and accurate per the first and second move discussions. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 14:10, 25 August 2014 (UTC) Fitzcarmalan (talk) 12:13, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why you think there is no hope to replace the word "massacre" in the lemma. When the usage of the scientific and main media sources changes, we can adopt our lemma, too. Until now you just tried to replace it with trivialising terms - that was the main problem here, since we have to avoid terms here that support historical revisionism as driven by the current Egyptian regime's media for example.

According to your proposal I don't oppose nor do I support this proposal. Just some thoughts (not about how it should be but about how it is):

In my opinion "Rabaa massacre"'s usage in publications since August 2013 usually already subsumes the mass killing (or "massacre") at Rabaa square and at Nahda aquare and the killings at Mustafa Mahmoud square as well. In other words "Rabaa" is commonly used as catch-word for all violent and bloody dispersals in Greater Cairo on August 14th, 2013 including "Nahda" dispersal and mass killing and the "Mustafa Mahmoud" dispersal and killings cf. e.g. HRW report. And really: it seems about 90% of the Greater Cairo dispersal killings that day happened at Rabaa square alone (probably more than 1000 demonstrators killed there as well as 8 of 10 members of the security forces) and information known so far shows, it probably was one planning and a coordinative operation of security forces and so on. So is there a compelling reason to deviate here from the common usage in English sources in this case?

--Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 14:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC) In memoriam of Peter Scholl-Latour (†)[reply]

The massacre issue doesn't concern me in this thread. The dispersal of Nahda's sit-in might not be as notable as Rabaa's in terms of fatalities, but the sit-in itself was certainly big and garnered significant media attention before the crackdown. Our titles should also be based on the facts at hand, and 90+ killed in Nahda is not minor. According the HRW report, the Mustafa Mahmoud events (along with the attacks on churches by Islamists) took place in the aftermath of the dispersals, not as part of the main events: After security forces dispersed the al-Nahda sit-in on August 14, Brotherhood supporters organized a march towards nearby Mustafa Mahmoud Square in Mohandiseen, a neighborhood southwest of al-Nahda Square in Giza. This protest was among the many held across Egypt on August 14 to protest the violent dispersals of Rab’a and al-Nahda squares. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 16:40, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

1) "massacre": I did not ask you about "massacre" or "not massacre", Fitzcarmalan. We had that before enough and you should have learned from your many mistakes and foolish source usage here in the discussion, that you cannot prevent the mass killing to be mentioned in the lemma in an explicit (!) way. I won't discuss this with you any more. It is compelety out of question that there happened an unlawful asymmetrical mass killing in huge dimensions, which can be called "massacre". This discussion is done.

2) Nahda's mass killing's importance: Hard to believe: first you insist on calling it "dispersal" or "crackdown" or just with any other term that may help avoid the lemma remembering a single killing and now you are fit to teach me to accept that "90+ killed in Nahda is not minor". Did you forget your own behaviour and arguments in this discussion and don't you remember mine? Be sure and don't worry about this any more: I am clearly aware we must not hush up the mass killing happened at Nahda square. But your move request has nothing to do with this question. Or do you think HRW and all other human rights groups are neglecting "Nahda" killings when they use the (incorrect but established) form "Rabaa massacre" for the Nahda mass killing, too? What an absurd idea! I am happy when you've turned to an advocat for the memorial of the "Nahda massacre", bravo. But don't pretend now, the usage of the term "Rabaa massacre" is denying the importance of the Nahda mass killings. Keep in mind even pro-Morsi and anti-coup groups (those who have been killed in first instance) in Egypt are using "Rabaa Massacre" for all the mass killings that happened at the dispersals in Greater Cairo in August 14. To twist it as if they would neglect the Nahda mass killings with the term "Rabaa massacre" would be really tasteless. You should not state that again.

3) Nahda in the lemma: I said clearly, to call it "Rabaa and Nahda massacre" is indeed an option, I never opposed to it. It is just unusual and I asked you why we should prefer it then. You say Nahda sit-in had "significant media attention before the crackdown". I don't know (because you don't tell it) whether you refer to Arabic media sources as you did before, but the Western media response before the bloody crackdown was weak - wrongly when you ask me, by the way - as it kept after it. And the Nahda-sit-in was always much smaller as we know well (Nahda: "dipping into the low thousands during the day and multiplying at night"; Rabaa: "to more than 100,000 at night and during big events"). So why you state the opposite - your move's reason keeps incomprehensible, it does not reflect the usage of the sources at all.About your argumentation: Take care not to trivialise the mass killings. This article (and lemma as well) is not about the "July and August 2013 Rabaa and Nahda sit-ins" in general, it is about the so-called "Rabaa massacre" of August 14th with probably more than 1100 killed demonstrators. The general history of the Nahda- and Rabaa- Sit-ins may be touched in the article, but is not central. The mass killings during the violent dispersal of those sit-ins are central.

4) Mustafa Mahmoud Square: Listen Fitzcarmalan, stop this kind of perverting sources. The HRW report you are citing, sums up exactly three dispersals in its content list (not less and not more): 1st "Forcible Dispersal of the Rab’a Sit-in" (page 33ff), 2nd "Dispersal of the al-Nah da Square Sit-in" (p. 86ff) and 3rd "Dispersal at Mustafa Mahmoud Square" (p.92). Of course it was "among the many held across Egypt on August 14 to protest the violent dispersals of Rab’a and al-Nahda squares" (thanks for quoting the source I cited myself). But it was part of the both existing Greater Cairo dispersals in that way, that protesters who survived and escaped the Nahda dispersal, who could not go home and could not go back to the destroyed sit-in as some stated, "on Wednesday morning" managed to "secure the area" at Mustafa Mahmoud Square and tried to reinstall their sit-in in another place and were dispersed again by security forces in similar manner as before. What do you think, why HRW spend an own chapter for it in its report. Why do you, as citizen of Cairo, don't know about the meaning of this event, when we in Germany and other Western countries read it in our language in the media reports (e.g. http://www.webcitation.org/6LpgnnUmr, http://www.webcitation.org/6KU5GvvMe, http://www.webcitation.org/6KU7ZsaOW, http://www.webcitation.org/6IwQ0ssrW, http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/egypt0814_ForUpload_0_0.pdf)? Yes it was "among the many held across Egypt on August 14 to protest the violent dispersals of Rab’a and al-Nahda squares" and it was a special case and closer related to the Cairo mass killings though in personal, spatial and chronological meaning. HRW sees it as part of a long-term planned and systematical crackdown in Cairo.

When someone calls your oratory reasonable, be happy. Whoever reads the sources well, might ask, why you still try to avoid to follow the established terms. Is anything wrong with it? The sources understand Rabaa massacre as all the bloody dispersals of August 14th (including Nahda and Mustafa Mahmoud). This unity of the unlawful killing's planning and execution can get important in juridical manner, too, since HRW and others demand prosecution of the traitors of these supposed Crimes against humanity. I don't say we will live and see that happen. But we have to report the main proceedings of that story. You can try to separate the killings here, but they already are seen as one. --Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 00:26, 18 August 2014 (UTC) + --Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 06:58, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am not trying to teach anyone anything, nor am I here to right the great wrongs. The usage of Rabaa massacre is not neglecting the importance of the events in Nahda, it is simply hiding the facts that two sit-ins were dispersed that day as part of the main plan by security forces. Do you happen to have one or more sources explicitly saying that the Nahda and Rabaa killings are both called "Rabaa Massacre"? Keep in mind even pro-Morsi and anti-coup groups (those who have been killed in first instance) in Egypt are using "Rabaa Massacre" for all the mass killings that happened at the dispersals in Greater Cairo in August 14 → Could be true, but then again there's Ikhwan Web ("The Muslim Brotherhood's Official English web site"): A Month Passes Since Rabaa and Nahda Massacres // Freedom & Justice Party: The Muslim Brotherhood issued the following statement regarding Rabaa and Nahda massacres' first anniversary // PressTV: Protesters marked the first anniversary of the Rabaa and Nahda massacres, and probably more. Even the HRW report's title "The Rab'a Massacre and Mass Killings of Protesters in Egypt" doesn't necessarily suggest that both crackdowns are called Rabaa Massacre. To draw up that conclusion based on this is clearly original research. Also, the main chapter about the killings (p. 31) is titled The Dispersals at Rab’a al-Adawiya and al-Nahda Squares as a main headline for all the events that took place that day, each detailed in different sub-sections (including the aftermath events such as Mustafa Mahmoud and the church attacks).

Say what you want about the Mustafa Mahmoud dispersal, but it is still part of the "Aftermath" section in the article since it wasn't initially planned. Even the DNE source you cited says the Mustafa Mahmoud incident took place following the dispersal. Same thing goes for the church attacks which also have a separate chapter in the HRW report but you didn't mention that. And by the way, I don't have much time to correctly translate German links, so I would be thankful if you either transalte them yourself or find English alternatives. I've never provided an Arabic source in this talk page myself. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 16:18, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I'll answer once again in detail, but then it must be enough. If you don't read the given sources, it will be impossible to discuss without endless dilatation.

-Rabaa massacre or Rabaa and Nahda massacre: This question is not a trivial go / no-go type, Fitzcarmalan, I think we know that both. We can use "(August 2013) Rabaa massacre" as we can use "Rabaa and Nahda massacre(s)". When you ask me what most sources use, I would say, in first place they use "Rabaa massacre" in the headlines, and then they explain "violent dispersals of Raba sit-in and Nahda sit-in" or similar in more detailed sections. I think this is what HRW did (with "mass killings" in their title they might refer to the mass killings of July 5, July 8 and July 27 as well as to the whole systematic crackdown and repression planning as they put it and explained it in the text; but they possibly refer to Nahda mass killing, too)

- Sources which use "Rabaa massacre" in headline and then refer to Rabaa and Nahda mass killings in the text: So many, just pick any out of google as I do here: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/2014/08/egypt-rabaa-cairo-massacre-201481213185826678.html. You can add as many others as you want. But there is another interesting phenomena: many sources don't even try to mention Nahda. They just refer to Rabaa mass killing and that seems to intend to include Nahda without emphasing it. Look at Kristen Chick, how she put it in CSM: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2013/1114/Egyptian-authorities-pave-over-Rabaa-massacre. Or to take a clearly biased example, distributed by the "Egyptians against Coup": http://de.slideshare.net/TwthekMajzara/the-massacre-of-rabaa-between-narration-documentation. This effect might result from the fact, that most people gathered in Rabaa Sit-in, not in Nahda. It is difficult to decide, whether they can't differentiate (because they only saw or researched one sit-in-dispersal or whether they don't want to differentiate, because they see the Rabaa- and Nahda dispersals as one story. I just can say, the headline I encounter in most cases is "Rabaa massacre" and not "Rabaa and Nahda massacre". You are the one, who uses google statistics as argument. I am sure you rarely will find the explicit term "Rabaa and Nahda massacre", even though this is no argument in my opinion (but in yours it was during the last move request, where you tried to proove, that "Rabaa massacre" is not used most commonly, but "Rabaa dispersal" or "... crackdown", remember?) And last not least: similar as Kristen did it in her CSM article about the Rabaa square you see it by Anti-coup protesters all over the world, especially Pro-Morsi or Pro-Muslimbrotherhood suporters, but also other groups inside and outside of Egypt: They simply use the R4bia-sign to memorate the Cairo "massacre" of August 14 and it would be completely absurd to state, this excludes the Nahda mass killing.

- I don't know how you know what has been planned initially and what not. But when you read the HRW report, you find them arguing, the Rabaa massacre (and Nahda mass killing and Mustafa Mahmoud killing as well as the the mass killings of July 5, July 8, and July 27, and maybe the months of repression following the August 14 crackdowns) might form one entity when regarded as one systematical planned and executed crackdown and repression by the military led regime.

- church attacks: The church attacks (and attacks on Christian properties) are not part of the regime's crackdown plan, but were caused by islamistic extremists. They differ from time (they actually started, when Nahda crackdown was already done and they lasted for several days, mainly August 14th to 16th, when I remember well), they differ from place (early reports came from Minya und Sohag and mainly many upper Egypt's cities) and they differ form the involved people (cf.: Mustafa Mahmoud demonstrators came directly from Cairo's Nahda dispersal, and not only for revenge or solidarity protestess, but because they had to go to any place since there was no normal train traffic from and to Cairo that time, don't forget) with regard to the Rabaa and Nahda mass killings. It might be true, that security forces killed many people during these attacks, but those attacks were clearly started by Islamists. So why should I have mentioned the attacks on churches by those Islamists in the context how to name our lemma here? The sources describe them as reaction on the dispersals (most say they were acts of revenge), not as part of the military or police forces' dispersal or crackdown planning. For further questions I recommend the AI report of October 9, 2013, but this has not much to do with our subject to find the best lemma for this article.

- Arabic sources: you said we should use terms, most people in Egypt use, and you said what these terms are and started several move requests here, based on your "findings", do I remember right (cf. here or here, and once again citing ar:WP, ar:WP as source, imagine!)? But you "never provided an Arabic source in this talk page" - that's right. These sources about the common use in Egypt and by nearly all Egyptians as you mentioned in general are still missing. Why? Let us know your Arabic sources in detail so we can see what is the base for your "research"!

- So you expect us to believe your "examination" of Arabic sources, but you reject German sources when untranslated. But German sources are not necessary anyway, because I cited those, you should be able to understand well: "Some protesters moved from Nahda Square to another square farther north, but security forces cleared that area as well" and HRW report or see DNE again: "After the clearing of Al-Nahda Square, Morsi supporters flocked to nearby Mohandessin where they tried to set up another sit-in but eventually their attempts failed." and "[2]". Was that intelligible now? If not read more:

- Mustafa Mahmoud dispersal: can be possibly seen as part of Nahda dispersal (of course it can be planned before since it was kind of treatment of the demonstrators which were dispersed from Nahda place) or as part of the dispersal's aftermath, even though it started in the morning of August 14, not in the afternoon. So whether you are right with this or wrong, it depends on the perspective: Of course "even the DNE source [I] cited says the Mustafa Mahmoud incident took place following the diepersal", because the Mustafa Mahmoud protesters had no time machine and could not go to Mustafa MAhmoud before escaping Nahda where they were trapped like mice when HRW report tells the truth. DNE wrote "following the dispersal of the two pro-Mohamed Morsi sit-ins in Al-Nahda Square and Rabaa Al-Adaweya" (I told you to keep in mind many sources treat it as one event) but they clearly meant the end of the Nahda dispersal or just the time after the beginning of the both dispersals of course (as you see easily when reading more than just one sentence in the same source: "Another man who came to Mohandessin following the clearing of Al-Nahda Square sit-in ...") which ended at about 9 am (cf. HRW report!). Protesters of the already terminated Nahda dispersal in Giza-Dokki then went to nearby Mustafa Mahmoud square in Giza-Mohandessin (not those protesters of Rabaa dispersal, where protesters had no "safe exit" that time - until about 5:30pm - and which is far distance in Eastern Cairo as you know well). The Rabaa dispersal and mass killing was not terminated before 5:30 pm (!). Read HRW report, page 92ff for example (as already cited) or other sources I gave. Don't you understand or don't you want to accept, that Nahda protesters who survived and escaped the Nahda killings went to Mustafa Mahmoud? It's not that difficult to understand, is it? So to put it very simple: protesters in Nahda were captured there until maybe 8 or 9 am, about at least 90 of them killed there, then many of the survivors marched to nearby Mustafa Mahmoud, secured the area and finally again they were attacked and dispersed by security forces. You can call this "aftermath" if you insist on that, but it ios actually not the aftermath of the Rabaa-sit-in dispersal but of the Nahda-sit-in dispersal. You also can see this as one story altogether and you can try to construct a more or less logic order.

This is exacty the task we face with defining our lemma here. And that's why I mentioned it. Decide so or so, but don't twist the known information or even misuse sources for that purpose. --01:12, 19 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anglo-Araneophilus (talk • contribs) --Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 01:20, 19 August 2014 (UTC) + --Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 09:35, 19 August 2014 (UTC) + --Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 17:45, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.