What happened at Chernobyl can't happen at a BWR or PWR. You can't get a positive void coefficient, you can't operate in that portion of the power/flow map, you can't get a steam explosion, there's no graphite to burn, and non-Soviet Union reactors all have containment buildings. While meltdowns are assumed to be possible to occur, Chernobyl will always be unique. Simesa 16:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please see "BWR/PWr" in Talk below. Simesa 29 June 2005 20:29 (UTC)

If nuclear power related legislation [1] not specifically related to Price-Anderson gets signed into law, a paragraph will be placed in Nuclear Power 2010 Program. Simesa 18:01, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have a proposal - specifically for those who claim the risk of a chernobyl is unlikely.

Just this one question:

If there is no risk, why does the nuclear industry need a Price Anderson Act? Benjamin Gatti 04:14, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please read paragraph 4. 216.164.138.57 05:28, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Read it. If that is the answer - why doesn't the Price Ansderson act cover windmills? They have financial risks as well - obviously much less - but if the PA provided equal justice for all, it would cover investors in windmills in the rare event that they suffered financial loss.

I have no objection to covering windmills, or even with fully subsidizing them. However, bank depositors are covered by the FDIC - you wouldn't want that to go away, even though it is exactly analogous to Price-Anderson. The railroads wouldn't have been built without land grants, or the airlines without mail contracts. That's one reason why we have a government. Simesa 28 June 2005 16:39 (UTC)

In the spirit of honesty - it burns me up that we have spent so much money on nuclear energy, and that we continue to spend _any_, when we haven't made an _Equal_ effort to harness renewable energy. That outright anger extends to any subsidy, liability waiver, in short an _inequity_ which gives one clearly dangerous industry an advantage over much cleaner and safer alternatives - which i am actively involved in developing [www.windwavesandsun.com ]. Is that a bias - yes - am i honest about it - yes. In addition, my wife is from Kiev, her family includes people who were sent in to clean up chernobyl while it was hot, most of which are now dead and dying of terrible diseases. Is that bias or experience. Some voices here are "nuclear engineers" does that imply more experience in the hazards of nuclear than someone who has lived in kiev and dined with people suffering the effects of chernobyl? Maybe not. I doubt anyone wants to hear from a voice which is so uninformed as to have no perspective whatsoever. I'm not against government funding public goods - but it must be open and honest. If nuclear is safe - why do we have Price-Anderson, if is dangerous how is it a public good - why not alternatives such as wind?Benjamin Gatti 29 June 2005 00:55 (UTC)

As I pointed out below, debating various positions is interesting and fun, but pretty much pointless here at Wikipedia. We aren't here to pass judgment on what tack is right or wrong or better, we're here to summarize pertinent information -- particularly on pro and con debates on subjects -- on encyclopeda articles. Our own personal opinions about which side is right are largely irrelevant. See Wikipedia:Wikiquette, Wikipedia:NPOV. Best · Katefan0^(scribble) June 29, 2005 02:30 (UTC)

Do you really believe that any nuclear engineer doesn't know exactly what happened at both Chernobyl and TMI? Simesa 30 June 2005 10:50 (UTC)

Three Mile Island only cost $70 million despite a "back door" leak out of containment, so the risk is plainly insurable (for American plants, at least). The problem is in what maximum amount to insure for. The government apparently deems the Price-Anderson amounts and provisions to be adequate, so the industry is insured.

Your car insurance has limits that won't nearly cover a worst-possible-case accident. Nuclear is much better insured. Simesa 28 June 2005 16:39 (UTC)

I rather think that 275 million drivers each with 1,000,000 liability is closer to 275,000,000,000,000 dollars so the "Industry" of car operators has some pool of 275 Trillion Dollars - enough to cover the 250 Billion in losses from chernobyl one thousand times. That is what adequate coverage looks like. Even if the number of insured drivers is half the pop, its still adequate. 9 Billion in the whole pool is inadequate. - Why is there language that congress will consider picking up the rest. Insurance says DANGER.Benjamin Gatti 28 June 2005 21:48 (UTC)

The industry has liability of $9.5 billion PER ACCIDENT. Your drivers have $1 million per accident - there's no pool coverage. You should have seen that. Simesa 28 June 2005 21:56 (UTC)

No industry and no individual is insured for the worst possible accident. Why should nuclear power be held to a standard that any industry and anyone driving a vehicle? They are already held to Strict liability which means that they have to pay regardless of fault, whereas most industries are only liable if fault can be proven. As for uninsurable, that could only be determined by repealing Price Anderson. pstudier 2005 June 28 22:24 (UTC)

The industry is liable for AT LEAST $9.5 billion, so your statement is patently incorrect. Simesa 28 June 2005 16:39 (UTC)

These recent additions, such as: The Price-Anderson Act, addresses the uninsurable risks of nuclear energy and research by passing the costs and the risks of a nuclear accident from the owners of production to the labor class. are POV. It's fine to cite someone criticizing the act for passing the cost of insurance on to the taxpayers, but we can't just make a blanket assertion like that; the language is too authoritative. This has been around a long time, surely you can find some critical sources to buttress the point you'd like to make. Wasn't the idea, back in 1957, that nukes were an immature industry, and as such had to be protected from insurance risks? Interesting that it's still considered immature. But that's neither here nor there in terms of this particular phraseology. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 28, 2005 19:23 (UTC)

How does that square with Windmills? Wave Energy OTEC?. They are an immature technology, they have certain financial risks, why don't they need an cost-shift to the taxpayers?Benjamin Gatti 28 June 2005 21:44 (UTC)

Does it matter? How is that relevant to the article? I'm asking seriously, not to be flip. If you have a source that's critical of the Price-Anderson Act because of the nuclear industry's current status (i.e. no longer an immature industry), feel free to cite it. Otherwise it's sort of irrelevant. Our own opinions on the matter -- any matter (even mine) -- are immaterial. What we are here to do is summarize pertinent information, including pro and con debates, about various encyclopedic subjects, not pass judgment ourselves on which theory is right or wrong ot better (see Wikipedia:Wikiquette). Again, if you have a source that's critical of the nuclear industry vis a vis insurance, feel free to cite it. I'm sure there must be some out there. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 28, 2005 23:43 (UTC)

Here's some criticism here, and here, and here. There's lots of information to work with. Personally I agree that there should be some critical voices in this article, but it has to be done in an NPOV fashion. I would be glad to work with you, Benjamin, to do that. I would recommend you start out by reading some of these websites and then taking a crack at summarizing their criticisms of the act inside the article (read Wikipedia:NPOV and Wikipedia:Cite sources for some guidelines). Best · Katefan0^(scribble) June 28, 2005 23:53 (UTC)

Price Anderson is an INSURANCE thing - it "makes money available in case of damages" That is what insurance thingies do. I hardly think anyone needs this article to spell out what insurance does. So expanded words are really just filler, and ought to be dealt the deletonious stroke of the mouse.

"Because no one had (or has) quantified wh ..." What trite, either they had, or they hadn't. In really Hiroshima and nagasaki, as well as covert experiments on animals and people had clearly established a range of very bad things that could happen as a result of nuclear exposure. This is blither blather.

"Because no one had (or has) quantified what the maximum coverage necessary would be for a PWR or BWR, financiers were unwilling to insure the possible risk. Therefore, no private operator in the United States would have built a nuclear facility ..."

Is this what passes for encyclopedic facts these days? This is a string of interdependant negatives, none of which can be proved either way. Perhaps this would be better as an chapter in scient_logy. Let's reduce it to verifyable fact.

"(commonly called simply the Price-Anderson Act)" the Act is not commonly known much less commonly called, the redirect is adequate. Benjamin Gatti 29 June 2005 03:40 (UTC)

Ben, I agree that the article still needs work. All I've had time to do so far is add some background, but will work on it more when I have a minute. I'll be very busy today and probably tomorrow so I may not be able to get back to this in any detail for a few days. Also, with all due respect, the act is commonly shortened to Price-Anderson; nobody refers to it by its full name. Additionally, please refrain from making uncivil remarks about anyone's contributions — please read Wikipedia:Civility; calling contributions "blather" is not helpful to building an encyclopedia. We're all here for the same reason, to make the article better. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 29, 2005 12:22 (UTC)

Subsidies encourage a specific outcome in otherwise competative industries. Their purpose is to encourage private investment in the outcome the government has predestinated to win.

It is called picking winners and losers.

Most theories of economics call it socialism, communism, dictatorships, command economies, etc,

Economic theories which abhor picking wiinners include capitalism, laize faire (sp) economics, libertarianism, etc ... Benjamin Gatti 29 June 2005 04:14 (UTC)

I have already pointed out several ways for you to insert such criticism in the article. As long as you cite a source that is critical of these practices, it's a perfectly acceptable way of building an article. There's a natural opening right after the sentence where the background info begins to talk about its detractors. Again, I'll have more time to help you on this later. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 29, 2005 12:25 (UTC)

Here's my opinion on why the Act as a subsidy should be spelled out in detail.

Its insurance, and yet the article states that it is: "Insurance which makes available a pool of funds in the event of an accident." That is a tautology. If its insurance, it pools risk, and pays out on unexpected losses, spelling it out is tedious, but to be fair, we ought to spell out the subsidy as well, how it works, and its purpose - which in every case is to "direct private investment to support the outcome of a competative market which the government preordains." In the general case, subsidies encourage the least effecient market outcome because subsidies disable the group-intelligence of many individual investors, by dictating higher rates of returns for handpicked winners. Subsides unlevel the playing field and give economic advantages to otherwise uncompetative alternatives.

The Price Anderson Act is an open admission that nuclear power is dangerous and unable to compete with wind and other safe clean power sources in a fair competation. It is the WHY and the HOW of nuclear power. Benjamin Gatti 29 June 2005 12:46 (UTC)

I don't accept many of your conclusions. Subsidies don't necessarily give the least efficient market outcome. Nuclear isn't non-competitive - it certainly beats oil. PAA only indicates that the magmitude of insurance needed is unknown. Simesa 29 June 2005 18:43 (UTC)

Again, it's really immaterial what your (or my) opinions are on the topic. Wikipedia isn't a soapbox for advocacy, and these talk pages aren't to endlessly debate positions of policy or issues -- it's to bring up problems with POV, accuracy, etc., in an article. From Wikipedia:Wikiquette: Wikipedia articles are supposed to represent all views (more at NPOV). The Talk ("discussion") pages are not a place to debate value judgements about which of those views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis. Use the Talk pages to discuss the accuracy/inaccuracy, POV bias, or other problems in the article, not as a soapbox for advocacy. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 29, 2005 18:47 (UTC)

I have tried to express the subsidy aspect of the Act in parity with the insurance aspect. Were possible i used similar phrasing and presentation. Perhaps equal time will prevail. Remember the DOE calls it a subsidy. If it walks like a subsidy, talks like a subsidy, smells like a subsidy - it's probawobbily a subsidy.

While the industry and the DOE disagree on whether PAA is a subsidy, I'm content to call it one. What I disagree with is that it is wealthfare - this subsidy has a specific purpose necessary if we're to have nuclear power. (Whether or not to want nuclear power is POV here.) Simesa 29 June 2005 17:59 (UTC)

There are plenty of groups out there that have criticized this as just that -- wealthfare. And it's fine to summarize a group like Public Citizen's criticism in that realm. But you cannot simply assert it as a matter of fact inside the article. Think about what you're doing when you make edits like these. Instead of trying to bull through these items and make them statements of fact, in violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policies, properly cite the criticism and then you'll be fine. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 29, 2005 18:03 (UTC)

While the Kyoto Protocol certainly is nuclear-related, it belongs in nuclear power, not PAA.

In any event, nuclear power, fusion and renewables would all satisfy Kyoto equally well, as the Protocol makes no recommendations as to how to obtain the greenhouse gas reductions. Simesa 29 June 2005 18:42 (UTC)

Comments in an article are useful for asking questions, or as expansion notes. But please don't turn them into a debate inside the article itself. That gets confusing for people who are trying to edit the article. I have removed the comment in question, which was becoming a platform for debate, and reproduce it below :

<!-- — an extension is required to cover [[nuclear reactor]]s built after that year. (How is it proven that an extension is required - maybe the industry is mature, doesn't need subsidies, maybe nuclear has been demonstrated to be uncompetative and dangerous - I see no cite that an extension is _required_) - see your own quote below -- The DOE says none will be built without it. ok fine, but that doesn't mean its _required_ - only its _required IF IF IF new nuclear plants are to be built - is that a requirement? I think not. -->

· Katefan0^(scribble) June 29, 2005 19:12 (UTC)

Hey -- I took out the reference to BWR/PWr and instead said something like "certain nuclear power plants" -- as a lay person, bwr/pwr makes really no sense to me and I imagine the vast ajority of people who might come upon this article would agree. But I don't want to remove any important context. So can you maybe explain to me what these things are and why you thought it was important to include them in the article? Just in layman's terms. thanks. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 29, 2005 19:41 (UTC)

True - I didn't clarify that, did I. BWRs boiling water reactors and PWRs pressurized water reactors are the only two kinds operating in the U.S. (except for three odd research reactors at INEEL). Looking back, that paragraph is redundant - sort of a combimation of parts of your current paragraphs 2 and 4. I like your current version. Simesa 29 June 2005 20:13 (UTC)

[Boiling water reactors operate with about 1000 psi inside the reactor vessel, and allow the water to boil inside the reactor vessel at that pressure - then the steam goes to the turbine. Pressurized water reactors operate with about 2000 psi pressure inside the reactor vessel - the water doesn't boil, so no steam yet - the pressurized water goes to heat exchangers called "steam generators", where steam is made with clean water that hasn't gone through the reactor vessel - that clean steam goes to the turbines (there's a picture at the bottom of PWR). PWRs are used on ships because the water doesn't slosh around inside the reactor vessel, and the first commercial US nuclear power plant, the Shippingport Reactor, was actually a reactor made for a big ship.] Simesa 29 June 2005 20:26 (UTC)

That was fun.. just got evacuated from the Capitol. Anyway... Benjamin, it is widely accepted that PAA helped to spur the nuke industry. I did not make the assertion myself, my addition said "Many believe." If you'd like to find a source that refutes that claim, feel free to add it. As for me, you can find my source in this nonpartisan Congressional Research Service report to Congress on the PAA and other nuclear energy issues: [2]. I will add it to the article. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 29, 2005 23:11 (UTC)

What i do object to is Standards-Nased POV. If one said can say "Many Believe", than the other is equally justified in asserting that "Few Voices today assert that uclear is so vital to anything that it warrents suspending the constitution." See - good for the goose - good for the gander, I really believe that any system of government will be decent if it makes one rule for all. Saying I can't say Few Voices today - while the other pov can say many believe is unfair to the issue, and inherently NPOV. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 00:31 (UTC)

If you have a source, feel free to cite it. Thanks · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 00:35 (UTC)

I removed: Countries which do not punish bad actors invariably promote corruption. All fair minded individuals will agree that it is not fair to ask alternatives technologies which are safer to compete with nuclear when the rules are tilted so heavily in favor of one side. In other words, if changing the law so that businesses cannot be punished for placing peoples lives at risk, then we ought to change the laws for everyone.

Wikipedia is not: a blog, an essay repository, Usenet, or anywhere else where you are encouraged to insert your personal opinions. If you have a source that states these things in the context of the Price-Anderson Act, feel free to cite it. Otherwise, opinions that are presented as encyclopedic fact have no place in this article. Have you read Wikipedia:NPOV and Wikipedia:Cite sources? · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 03:23 (UTC)

Just in case you haven't, here's a bit from it you may find useful to orient your mindset: 1. An encyclopedic article should not argue that corporations are criminals, even if the author believes it to be so. It should instead present the fact that some people believe it, and what their reasons are, and then as well it should present what the other side says.

2. An encyclopedia article should not argue that laissez-faire capitalism is the best social system. [...] It should instead present the arguments of the advocates of that point of view, and the arguments of the people who disagree with that point of view.

Perhaps the easiest way to make your writing more encyclopedic is to write about what people believe, rather than what is so. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 03:27 (UTC)

_____________

May I just say that from my point of view this entire paragraph reeks of unverfiable assertions:

Ben, I appreciate your questions, and they're worthwhile ones to ask. Let me see if I can answer them adequately. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:25 (UTC)

• "The Atomic Energy Act, which was enacted several years before Price-Anderson, was intended to spur the development of America's private nuclear power industry by allowing private industry to use atomic power for peaceful purposes, such as generating electricity."

How do we establish that its purpose was not simply to reward political contributers by giving a subsidy? - When did historians start taking politicians at their word?

There are multiple nonpartisan references that treat this, including two which I have cited at the bottom of the article (GAO and CRS). Here are some pertinent bits, so you don't have to look through the whole thing: Soon [after the Atomic Energy Act], government and industry experts identified a major impediment to accomplishing the act’s objective: the potential for payment of damages resulting from a nuclear accident and the lack of adequate available insurance. Unwilling to risk huge financial liability, private companies viewed even the remote specter of a serious accident as a roadblock to their participating in the development and use of nuclear power. (GAO) · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:25 (UTC)

One of your cites is a yahoo:geocities freebie website, the other is the same government which refuses to release transcripts of its energy meetings - why should we trust a government which refuses to release transcripts? Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 17:43 (UTC)

It is not my source; it was added by Sietma (apologies for misspellings). I agree that it's not really appropriate as a primary source, but in this case it's not -- the GAO report is. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:04 (UTC)

• "But it soon became apparent that no-one was interested in building a nuclear power plant because of the lack of available insurance."

How do you prove "No-one" did anything?

See above. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:25 (UTC)

Non responsive - how did the yahoo party or the closed door government verify that no one was interested? Benjamin Gatti

It really doesn't matter; the source is appropriate, and it's properly cited. We are not here to prove or disprove ourselves the validity of different theories, only to properly summarize the debate over them. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:04 (UTC)

• "Financial backers were were unwilling to risk the enormous financial liability that would result from a catastrophic accident at a nuclear plant."

For a price insurance is willing to do just about anything, people specialize in multi-party insurance for large scale risk. How do we prove that it was impossible? Was in uncompetative - probably so say that - but unwilling? unverifyable POV i say.

See above. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:25 (UTC)

Nonresponsive - citing government sources asserting a negative doesn't provide independantly verifyable facts. - its POV Benjamin Gatti

It really doesn't matter; the source is appropriate, and it's properly cited. We are not here to prove or disprove ourselves the validity of different theories, only to properly summarize the debate over them. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:04 (UTC)

• "At the same time, lawmakers in the United States Congress began to worry that there was not adequate financial protection for the public in the event of an accident."

"Lawmakers began to worry" - so name one. In 1957, we had a cold war, we had duck (swoop) and cover. we were building bomb shelters under post offices. And somebody took time out to think Ohmygawd, we forgot to insure the Rocky Flats nuclear site for 9 billion dollars? - again name just one lawmaker who spent one night pacing the floor in a state of concern for lack of insurance, so i can look it up. sheesh - POV.

Also from GAO: In addition, congressional concern developed over ensuring adequate financial protection to the public because the public had no assurance that it would receive compensation for personal injury or property damages from the liable party in event of a serious accident. Faced with these concerns, the Congress enacted the Price-Anderson Act in September 1957. (meaning, liability plus public compensation) · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:25 (UTC)

as long as we accept their word for it - without names places dates and transcripts - this is nothing better than becoming a mouthpiece for government propoganda - er PR.

It really doesn't matter; the source is appropriate, and it's properly cited. We are not here to prove or disprove ourselves the validity of different theories, only to properly summarize the debate over them. If you'd like to add a criticism of GAO reports to the article on the Government Accountability Office you're certainly able to do so, but this isn't the proper venue for that. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:04 (UTC)

"Price-Anderson was born from those dual concerns; the act established a mechanism for compensating the public for injury or property damage in the event of a nuclear accident, and encouraged the development of nuclear power by indemnifying the industry from fault."

A Summary of unsupported statements isn't any better than the sum of its parts. Quite likely, we had just dusted Japan off with two nukes, We - that is Eisenhower - wanted to leave a legacy somewhat broader than introducing the world to a global bowl of hemlock, so he set out to create a peaceful use for nuclear radiation. Turns out it was a flop, and rather than let it die - the government changed the rules and created a headstart for nuclear power so it wouldn't have to compete. Like handicapping a horse race, the government decided nuclear needed all the weights taken off - while leaving them on for the other horses of course. Talk about POV. Subsidies are the ultimate POV.

See above. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:25 (UTC)

Non responsive - i say the paragraph goes Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 17:43 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter; the source is appropriate, and it's properly cited. We are not here to prove or disprove ourselves the validity of different theories, only to properly summarize the debate over them. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:04 (UTC)

• "Most analysts and researchers, including the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, credit Price-Anderson with having paved the way for America's current nuclear plants to be built."

Both "Credit" and "Paved" imply that nuclear plants are a good thing. I suggest "concur or agree" that the Act has "enabled" private nuclear enterprise in the United States. BTW "America is a continent in two parts (North and South) - the Act does not cover a continent - it covers a Nation: the US.

Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 05:03 (UTC)

I have no problem with small language changes like that; thanks for your diligence. As an aside, all of the GAO's findings were backed up by the CRS report, but I can give you extracts from that as well if you would like. The language is NPOV and properly cited. With that being said, if you feel that some additional criticism or context needs to be added, by all means, find a source that outlines that criticism and cite it properly within the article. Thanks · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:25 (UTC)

The history is quoted in [3] - Katefan0's recounting is accurate, and her presentation balanced

"Lawmakers began to worry" - Eisenhower, for one. Atoms for Peace.

POV refers to Wikipedians' POV. We strive for NPOV here.

Simesa 30 June 2005 10:42 (UTC)

This language: In so much as no serious accidents have occured however, the potential cost of the act on taxpayers has never been realized. The real effect has been to reduce the amount of investment capital available for alternative technologies while at the same time satisfying a market demand with a subsidized good which floods the market and lowers the return on investment for non-subsidized goods. This increases the problem of reducing available capital for the most effecient solution to energy demand. As a consequence, the cost of energy is inflated due to the cost of the subsidy, plus the cost of market distortion, which is inefficiency. Ben, this is good critical information, but it's not presented in an NPOV fashion. Its language is too authoritative for an item that is in dispute. You need to find a source that asserts these things, then summarize within the text of the article what that source believes. Until you do that, the information will not be considered within Wikipedia's NPOV mandate. Thanks · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:44 (UTC)

Benjamin, your re-addition: In as much as no severe accidents have occured however, the potential cost of the act on taxpayers has never been realized. Many economomists believe that the effect of Subsidies generally and in this case is to reduce the amount of investment capital available for alternative technologies while at the same time satisfying a market demand with a subsidized good which floods the market and lowers the return on investment for non-subsidized goods. This further reduces available capital for the most efficient solution to energy demand. As a consequence, the cost of energy is inflated due to the cost of the subsidy, plus the cost of market distortion, which is market inefficiency. needs a source. Can you please provide one? Thanks · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 15:54 (UTC)

I'd just like to say that I'm sympathetic to your viewpoints, Benjamin, but most of my wikitime with this article has been taken up by reverting your well-meaning, but ill-structured additions, instead of helping you properly formulate the critical information you'd like to see included. If you would just take a breath for a minute, and maybe try formulating your paragraphs here on the talk page first, we could all work together a lot better I think. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 16:19 (UTC)

Dear Ketefan, In as much as I introduced the subject of Price Anderson by citing and referrencing it under "nuclear debate" and created this article in the first place, and whereas the congress is currently debating whether or not to continue the price anderson act, it is a bit disingenuous to critisize me for "ill structured additions." and the subject is hotly contested - not just here but in congress as we speak. historians have often remarked that they cannot work properly until some time has passed - in that sense, this is probably not a historical article, but very much a work in progress. If you want to invoke the spector of censorship into the spirit of wikipedia - that is your option. Just be honest with people when you do it - put a banner over the door that says "move over china - wikipedia coming through." Aside from which the first sentence structure is mine - and it is clearly better than the previous edition which focussed on the nuts and bolts of how laws are made instead of the direct meaning and effect. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 17:16 (UTC)

Ben, noone on Wikipedia has ownership of any article, so whether you started the article in the first place is irrelevant, though I do respect your interest in the subject. As for censorship, it's anything but -- I'm here to help you insert whatever criticism is appropriate; as I have said multiple times, I think the article needs more critical voices. But it must be done in a proper way -- and as long as your additions are not done in an NPOV fashion (have you read it yet?), I will continue to resist their form. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 17:29 (UTC)

Katefan - I don't claim ownership, but really do you think anyone cares how you spend your wikitime? This is an all voluntary army. If not you, someone else will explain to the readers that long phrases occassionally get shortened and make that the theater Markee. I happen to think it is fluff (blither Blather i think i called it - not that is istn't true, but its stuff for page 23b in the trade). And you criticize me for ill structured additions? In fact my effects paragraph was properly written straight up eco101 subsidy analysis, and you found a similarly form paragraph by a large group - that was ill-formed? Truth is a battle - not on your soapopera celebrity is she pregnant type subjects - but in matters of importance - matters of national defense - subjects which are more often classified and target of disinformation - truth is a battle. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 19:30 (UTC)

You write: In fact my effects paragraph was properly written straight up eco101 subsidy analysis This is precisely the problem. Encyclopedia articles aren't term papers; that type of language is not encyclopedic style. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 19:47 (UTC)

In the interests of accuracy, I made the initial stub for this article. The History shows it. Ben placed a link to it in Nuclear Power on 07:15 19 June 2005 (UTC). Simesa 30 June 2005 19:40 (UTC)

Simesa was the first to fill out the article. When i created the wikilink - it went nowhere - therefore my insertion as a wikilink creates the article - even if it is an empty shell. The substance of the Act was covered by my contributions under Nuclear power - this in essense is a fork of nuclear power with emphasis on the PAA. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 21:33 (UTC)

Is completely inappropriate and violates NPOV. If you'd like to insert criticisms of the Government Accountability Office or Congressional Research Service into those articles, you're more than welcome. But this article is not an appropriate venue for it. Also, I would like to respectfully observe that you seem willing to use Department of Energy documents to support your own viewpoints, and yet find government documents to be "propaganda" when they disagree. Best · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:08 (UTC)

When the DOE "Admits" that the PAA is a "Subsidy" - it is agreeing with its critics - so a cite in which the object of criticism admits the truth of those criticism is pretty damning evidence in my book - your mileage may vary, but if you're a reporter you really should know this - On the other hand, when the object of investigation is papering over the real issue by saying - "well it ensures compensation" - when exactly what it doesn't do is ensure compensation by f*reaking removing the standard obligation to get yourself properly insured - is blantant propoganda.

I was only pointing what seemed to me to be your own convenient hypocrisy. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:18 (UTC)

Apparent inconsistency is not the same as actual hypocrisy. I would prefer that those with a POV which is pro Neighborhood Irradiation exclusively quote Ralph Nader and Greenpeace - with whom they openly disagree - while people who are in favor of sustainable energy without military intervention (SEWMI) quote the DOE. Quoting your enemy is the highest level of intellectual neutrality. Could I gush with volumes of refernces to greenpeace against nuclear - i hope so - is it interesting - no. is it interesting when the DOE admits the PAA is a subsidy which permits felonius conduct to go unpunished - yes. The PAA in other industries would be absurd - imagine a Bank Indemnity Act - no bank can be sued - even for gross violations - lost your retirement sorry - here's an employment form for McDonalds at age eighty . No car maker or tire maker can be sued for accidents caused because they couldn't be bothered to test their products. No doctor can be sued for slicing his name into your abdomen, or injecting his patients without their knowledge with experiemental substances? If Indemnity is so great a thing - why not have it for eveyone. How about the Drunk Drivers indemnity act of 2005 - taxpayers foot the bill for any accidents. But we put a fiver on the wall so we can say something like "We have a pool of money to compensate victoms?" how do you compensate people whose children will have three legs and one eye? is $100 bucks enough? $200. How far does 9B go when the affected population is New York City 9B / 4M is some 2 thousand bucks - yeah that should do it. Here's two thousand buck to shut up and raise your vegitable. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 18:44 (UTC)

Why not contribute to the article on propaganda? I appreciate your opinions, but they do not particularly bear on the debate over this article. Our own opinions are largely immaterial when it comes to building an NPOV encyclopedia article. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:46 (UTC)

I think others have demonstrated a greater ability to contribute to propoganda. Whoever can say that Price is principlay and foremost a great way to compensate victoms of knowing and intentional nuclear irradiation with a straight face is either being paid by the industry (Simesa?) or was paid by the industy, or a natural propogandista. Let's say for example that Simesa who I trust is a nuclear engineer, would not have been directed into that field by unconstitutional subsidies, instead Simesa would have contributed to alternatives to nuclear - maybe wind, or wave, or geothermal. In that scenario, we might be closer to a sustainable and safe form of energy than one which inspires terrorists. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 19:35 (UTC)

Let's steer back toward talking about problems with the article instead of endlessly debating things that are largely irrelevant to the task at hand. Please see my earlier quote from Wikipedia:Wikiquette. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 19:47 (UTC)

I object to opening this topic by stating that "It makes a pool of money available for damages."

The purpose of the act was to spur nuclear plants - indemnity

DOE states that the indemnity was "Crucial" - doesn't say the "microcosmic pool" was crucial.

We can by sychophants for the nuclear industry - but then we should mabe just move to China. As independence press, we should seperate clear propoganda from the meat of the Act. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 18:57 (UTC)

I agree that this particular area needs more elaboration. It's confusing and I haven't had time to really read on up how it works functionally to see how I can best help incorporate the information in the article, though. Would welcome explanations for how it works. Thanks · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 19:12 (UTC)

...Don't disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. Thanks · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 20:08 (UTC)

My position is that taking up the all important first sentence with a trite redefinition of terms DISRUPTS wikipedia. I disapprove of the current redundancy every bit as much you disapprove of my somewhat overly explanitory phrase.

We state in the beginning that it creates a large pool - changed to small - changed to just pool. Then later we state that it is dwarfed by the actual costs of just one accident. In as much as the adequacy of the pool is very much in question - and whereas the taxpayers are on the hook for this bill in any case - it is really just propoganda to say there is a pool of money "to cover damages". There is a petty cash drawer for really small damages, but everything else comes out of the man's pockets.

If you would like to include that criticism, find a source and cite it. Thanks · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 20:40 (UTC)

The Opening Should Read:

The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act limits liability for nuclear plant operators. while it provides for some pooling of money to cover small nuclear, the government has agreed to charge the taxpayers for any large radiological incident, even if they are caused by the gross and willful misconduct of plant management. In addition, it caps damages and prevents punative damages against nuclear opporators even if they harm people while commiting a felony. The act currently covers all investors in nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2002. It has been criticized by environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs as a handout to the nuclear power industry.

Any complaints? Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 20:44 (UTC)

I prefer the current version. This overemphasizes your POV that the act doesn't do enough to pay damages. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 20:47 (UTC)

Lets agree on a point by point basis:

• The Act contemplates "Large" Accidents by specifically stating what it will do in that case - I don't have an action plan for when california slips into the sea - having an action plan recognizes the need for an action plan. The operative term is "Large" and it is defined as having damages larger than the pool will cover - chernobyle cost 50 times what the pool contains. Do we agree that the Act contemplates "Large ccidents"?
• The Act deals with "Small Accidents" - defined as less than what the pool can cover. Agree?
• The Act provides indemnity - specifically without regard for fault - even if criminal behaviour is responsible - agree?
• The Act places a limit on the damages which can be collected by damaged parties - Agree?
• The Act covers investors - not the plant itself. Agree?
• The Act would "Draw from the Treasury" that's your social security check in case you're wondering to cover a "Large" incident Agree?

There so its completely factual. and Not POV. Now let's look at the current Intro

The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) limits liability for nuclear plant operators. It also makes available a pool of insurance funds to compensate people who are injured or incur damages from a nuclear or radiological incident. It indemnifies the nuclear industry for accidents by paying on a no-fault basis, and caps damages that may be rewarded as a result of a lawsuit. The act currently covers all nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2002. It has been criticized by environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs as a handout to the nuclear power industry.

• Does it inform us that taxpayers would have to pay for accidents - no that is buried in geek speak "Indemnity"
• It states that a pool of funds is created to compensate people for damages, which is words without meaning - is it adequate funds - clearly not, because of the language to deal with larger accidents ie draw from the treasury. So its POV. It should say a pool of funds for small accidents is created while big accidents would be paid for From somewhere other than the pool - thus the pool isn't big enough.
• Caps damage awards - again true, but how much and in what way - specifically is prohibits _punative_ awards which are a means of punishing corporations for criminal behavior, and indirectly to punish investor who seek to get rich by investing in schemes which put the public at risk. Hiding the release of criminal liability under the anti-lawyer slogan of "damage award caps" is POV.

PS the title redundancy triggers my autistic tendencies, can we please get rid of it. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 22:54 (UTC)

"autistic"??? I think you meant "artistic".

The pool is probably adequate to deal with a "severe accident" (industryspeak for a meltdown) based on TMI, where over a third of the core melted. Simesa 30 June 2005 23:16 (UTC)

This is simple BS.

for example: I'm worried we don't have insurance to protect our family.

So we

1. hide a little money under the bed, and
2. create family indemnity which says that the family is responsible if anyone in the family gets hurt.

There that should do it.

What did we change? nothing. We had the money, we put it under the bed. By creating an indemnity plan we shifted the burden of a catastrophy from where to where?

from - the Treasury, which in any case covers disasters - even tidal waves in Tailand - To ... drum roll please

to ...

to ...

um

The Treasury? -- Right! good! see.

Look up FEMA i think you'll see it covers emergency management - they have rebuild the same house in a flood plain umpteen times, FEMA would have to cover a nuclear accident, how is that differnt under Price. I suggest that by saying so, they get to define what the act actually does. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 23:06 (UTC)

The information about Congress that you quoted is properly cited and is rendered in an NPOV fashion, backed up by both the GAO and CRS reports. If you would like to cite information that is critical of this position, find a source and include it. Thanks. Will answer your other points above when I am off deadline. · Katefan0^(scribble) June 30, 2005 23:16 (UTC)

The FEMA article says it deals with natural disasters, but they do deal with nuclear accidents [4]. However, FEMA dates from only 1979. The power reactors are to be assessed up to $88 million each in the event of an accident that exceeds the insurance, so I'd venture that PAA would pay first. Simesa 1 July 2005 00:16 (UTC)

The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) limits liability for nuclear plant investors. It requires nuclear plants to contribute a smaller amount of money to a common pool than insurance companies would require to insure the plant against liability arising from the release of radioactive material whether by accident or by misconduct. It provides Federal indemnification, meaning that taxpayers will be held financially responsible for any damages over and above the amount of the pool. In addition, injured parties are limited in their ability to recover damages and punative awards even for willful managerial misconduct. The act currently indemnifies all nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2002. It has been criticized by environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs as a handout to the nuclear power industry.

In this intro - I suggest that we agree - based on the cited section of the article, that the pool payment is Smaller than insurance would be at market rates. I'm not saying that the pool is small, just that the pool payments are smaller than insurance would be. That is supported in as much as the act is deemed "crucial" is sombody suggesting that the pool payment is actual higher than market rate insurance would be - look at the supreme court decisiosn - they admitted it was stinky - just they said it was so important stinky didn't matter.

We agree that misconduct is also indemnified. not POV - absolute truth backed up in the citations.

We agree that taxpayers are the deep pockets in this program - for anything "Over and Above" the pool. Truth NPOV

We agree that it limits awards and punative measures - NPOV fact.

eliminating uncomfortable fact is POV. Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 01:36 (UTC)

Please cite sources for your conclusions.

No, I don't see any reason to conclude that the amount is smaller. I'll concede that Price-Anderson is a subsidy, but saving on insurance was never the reason for the subsidy - having an insurance plan at all was.

As I said in my annotation, limited only if the claims exceed the pool amount plus what Congress arranges over that - possibly by further assessments on the industry.

Willful management misconduct is pure speculation - do you have any sources suggesting such actions in the past?

I still prefer Katefan0's intro. Yours isn't what I'd expect of an encyclopedia. Simesa 1 July 2005 01:59 (UTC)

"A contractor is fully indemnified for public liability, even if the liability stemmed from acts of gross negligence or willful misconduct, because the damage to the public is the same [DOE, 1997]." [5]

Is this bogus - or fair? I'm quoting it.

"The Price Anderson Act is anti-consumer because it asks taxpayers to assume most of the liability for nuclear accidents. " [6]

"The legislation was intended first of all to bolster investor confidence, whereas victim compensation is secondary. Price Anderson establishes only phantom insurance for the public, then provides a real bailout mechanism for the nuclear energy industry by reducing its need to pay for insurance, subsidizing the industry at the taxpayers' expense." [7]

"This 1982 study estimated that damages from a severe nuclear accident could run as high as $314 billion or more than $560 billion in 2000 dollars. Since that study, the NRC has developed "more realistic" modeling improvements to the agency s probabilistic risk assessment. A review of their 1982 study "found that property damages would be twice as much as those calculated in 1982, solely on the basis of the modeling improvements made." In addition, the Chernobyl catastrophe has cost the nations of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus $358 billion. This Chernobyl total, however, is vastly understated, since it does not attempt to estimate the costs to other nations, which also experienced health costs from the far-reaching nuclear fallout. Therefore, the $9.3 billion provided by private insurance and nuclear reactor operators represents less than two percent of the $560 billion in potential costs of a major nuclear accident. "

"A third major problem with Price Anderson is that it distorts the economic viability of the nuclear power industry since taxpayers cover the industry s insurance costs. A 1990 study calculated that without Price Anderson, nuclear power corporations would pay more than $3 billion annually in order to fully insure their operations."

So they have $100 Million of actual liability insurance which can't cost more than 100 Million, Plus they have a standing obligation of $88 Million - which they don't pay unless its needed - if at all.

Are you suggesting that their insurance premiums of 3 Billion - or about 25 million per year per plant would less than wha they pay now, which is about 100 times what you pay for you home insurance - say 300,000 a year, plus about the same in internal liability? Its not even several orders of magnitude - maybe 2%.

Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 02:33 (UTC)

Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 02:33 (UTC)

I created a Category for energy subsidies - i think if we are able to collect them together, it would be easier to summarize their relative net worth. Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 01:56 (UTC)

Due to the incessant editwarring on this article, I filed for a Cooling-Off Period. Simesa 1 July 2005 02:19 (UTC)

Which I opposed on the grounds that the request had been filed by a paid member of the nuclear industry. Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 04:30 (UTC)

An intro paragraph should generally serve as a summary of the most important points the article will later elaborate on. The intro, as it stands now, is way too bloated with information that has no business being in an introductory paragraph. · Katefan0^(scribble) July 1, 2005 03:51 (UTC)

Gentlemen, I apologize for the length back to which I had to revert the article, but I felt it necessary to remove Benjamin's disruptive edits. Inevitably some valid information was removed in the process that should be added back in, but I will work with everyone to make sure that is done. Benjamin, I'm glad to see that you are getting the hang of searching for sources, but finding a source that asserts something does not mean you can simply use it to authoritatively state something that is disputed as a fact and justify it by sticking in an in-line link to a website. If a group claims something, it should be properly identified as such. Your intro paragraph as it stood was ridden with biased claims that have no business being asserted so authoritatively, as far as I can tell. Thanks · Katefan0^(scribble)`

Just for the sake of being thorough, I wanted to take a minute to go through some of the recent edits here (you monkeys are busy) and explain what specifically I had a problem with. Then I'm going to get a beer and watch crummy TV.

Under the act, a DOE contractor is fully indemnified for public liability, even if the liability stemmed from acts of gross negligence or willful misconduct, because the damage to the public is the same (DOE, 1997) [1]

The footnote style is incorrect, first off. Secondly, this information is already mentioned later in the article. It is not essential to the PAA and therefore I don't feel it's needed in an intro paragraph.

The legislation was intended first of all to bolster investor confidence, whereas victim compensation is secondary. Price Anderson establishes only phantom insurance for the public, then provides a real bailout mechanism for the nuclear energy industry by reducing its need to pay for insurance, subsidizing the industry at the taxpayers' expense.

Plainly a statement of opinion. If you have a source that asserts this to be the case, by all means cite it. Otherwise it has no place in the article.

The total effect is to evade responsibility if there is an accident.

Blatant POV. Again, cite a source if you like, but otherwise it's inexcusably biased language.

The Act has no fault liability for reactor operators, and injured victims are precluded from directly suing vendors or manufacturers responsible for the accident.

This information is already mentioned later in the article. It is not essential to the PAA and therefore I don't feel it's needed in an intro paragraph.

The Act poses legal hurdles to a victim seeking compensation by removing state jurisdiction and restricts plaintiffs ability to utilize any state laws which go above and beyond federal protections. Moreover, Price Anderson protects nuclear operators from punitive damages that are not covered under their private insurance coverage.

This is all new information, but it doesn't belong in an intro paragraph.

The act currently covers all nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2002 even in cases of gross negligence and willful misconduct, which seems to discourage contractor accountability and a safety culture.

The first part that is a simple statement of fact is already stated later in the article; it does not need to go in the intro paragraph. The second part is just a speculative opinion that as it is written is POV. Feel free to cite a source that says this sort of criticism.

No other government agency provides this level of taxpayer indemnification to non-government personnel.[6]

Again, this is already mentioned later in the article. It has no business in the intro paragraph.

The limitation on liability provisions protect the assets of utilities and suppliers, creating a disincentive to the safe operation of nuclear reactors.

This assertion of opinion needs a cited source.

Present Price-Anderson provisions do not ease the burden of proof for claimants to show that latent cancer or other injuries resulted from a nuclear accident. Price-Anderson reduces the cost of nuclear power below the free market cost, which encourages its use at the expense of other forms of energy.

The first sentence is missing the so what? The second sentence is already treated later in the article.

Source: United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission, NUREG-00957, op. cit., p. 1-2.

This source is not cited in encyclopedic style.

Prosit. I'll be online a bit yet. · Katefan0^(scribble) July 1, 2005 04:14 (UTC)