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Edit warring, even if it involves efforts to restore the longstanding text, will be responded to harshly, including with escalating blocks and article bans.

Example:

1. User X changes longstanding text.
2. User Y reverts back to the longstanding text.

<Up to now, this is allowed>

But any further reverts (starting with, to X) are now a violation of the restriction.

There is really no need to go back and fourth. Which is to say, it is prohibited to do so in this article. El_C 14:19, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @EmilCioran1195, Kazemita1, Saff V., BarcrMac, and Ypatch: To add to what El C said above; in recent weeks the bunch of you have shown a fundamental misunderstanding of how talk page discussion is supposed to function. Discussions here are meant to build consensus, not to devolve into continuous accusation. This means you've to make proposals, and counter-proposals, and try to find a middle ground; and if there isn't a middle ground that you believe to be policy-compliant, solicit outside opinion via an RfC. All you've done at this talk page is yell at each other, and occasionally interpreted admin comments to suit your particular position. The blocks some of you just received were for sixty hours; but if I don't see evidence that you can edit this page in collaboration with people who disagree with you, then I'm fully prepared to TBAN all of you (and I don't want to hear a single word about how someone else's conduct was worse than your own). I suggest you begin by proposing ways to a) create a reasonably logical flow in the article, and b) reduce it to a reasonable size. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:09, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Vanamonde93: Why do not you see our efforts to improve the page's quality? You tell me you involve in discussions as an Admin, but when I report a personal attack or talk to you about suspicious editing, you give no clear answer (1, 2), But by reporting to others, the copyright issue appeared or the user was warned because of his bad behavior. I really don't know what was wrong with me?Saff V. (talk) 07:22, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Saff V.: If I thought you were uninterested in improving the article, I would have TBANned you. I am warning you (all of you) instead only because I still think you can make worthwhile improvements. I said what the problem with your editing was, above; briefly, that you are stonewalling and complaining on the talk page rather than collaborating. That needs to change; this page is for discussing content, not behavior. Vanamonde (Talk) 07:30, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @El C: Please note that BarcrMac changed the long standing version here, on 4 December, which was reverted to the long-standing version by Kazemita1. I don't know how many back and forth were in between, but BarcrMac reverted again on 11 December, without substantiating his position. Needless to mention that he tried to pretend he was reverting to the longstanding version, which is clearly false (this change was made on 4 December so it was not considered as longstanding after 7 days on 11 December. This is while BarcrMac is well aware that long standing version is "1 month ago, not two weeks"!) Anyway, Please restore to the real long standing version, before this edit. The edit is objected because it is against what the cited sources are saying. --Mhhossein ^talk 03:58, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@El_C: This edit should be reverted for the same reason. Moreover, I don't know how many other changes were made to the long standing version without substantiation. --Mhhossein ^talk 04:10, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not restoring anything myself. If you can substantiate (with actual specifics — not vague generalities) that a longstanding text version is due, you may restore to it yourself. El_C 06:02, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Mhhossein: Barca appears to have substantiated with actual specifics their edits in this talk page in the edit summaries. You, on the other hand, have not. Alex-h (talk) 14:48, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Alex-h. Not all of it is explained. He is yet to provide reasons as to why he is against inclusion of some text and/or pro inclusion of repetitive matter. Take for example the following:

1. He keeps pushing the text about the number of people killed in prison, even though it is mentioned a few lines above. Bear in mind that I was not against inclusion of the book publication; just against excessive details that happen to be repetitive.

2. He keeps removing reliably sourced content (Oxford University Press) that relates MEK to Hafte Tir bombing.Kazemita1 (talk) 15:39, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm restoring one of the changes to the longstanding version. This change (which was repeated here) is not supported by the sources (see [6] for example) nor there's consensus over it. Despite the edit summary, "Vanamonde's suggestion" is not necessarily supporting this (I see it as self interpretation of the admins' comment). I am ready to talk over it. --Mhhossein ^talk 04:03, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Every body, please note that a long standing phrase, i.e. "built around its leaders Masoud and Maryam Rajavi", was moved from the lead without building consensus. I believe it should be there since its describing in what terms the group is a cult. I am restoring to the longstanding version. --Mhhossein ^talk 15:17, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: Kazemita1 is continuing edit warring ([7]) ([8]). He revert saying that I "consented to this version of the article", but this is untrue. Barca (talk) 12:54, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Barca: Just take the diff between your last edit on Dec. 9th and the version I restored the article to on Dec. 13th and you will know. By the way, I left a message on your talk page asking for a friendly chat. Should I assume you are not willing to talk?Kazemita1 (talk) 13:48, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Saff V.: Why did you revert wholesale the IP's edits? They seemed quite uncontroversial - if not inconsequential - to me, and some of them were just fixing formatting/spacing issues. I'm afraid I think this is indicative of the "ownership" mentality of a few authors of this page. They immediately revert newcomers edits, regardless of their merits. EmilCioran1195 (talk) 12:58, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Kazemita1 - In your last reverts, ([9]) ([10]), you added to the article this material from the edit war, which is not part of the long-standing text and which you have reverted (yet again) without consensus:

• " and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years".
• " shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and cult-like attributes."

@El C: - sorry for bothering you, it is the obvious violation of the page's restriction. The later edits of Kazemita1 included disputed material belongs to edit war! Please leave a comment, Thanks! Barca (talk) 16:10, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I'm unable to immediately tell what's what. El_C 16:15, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: - here are the diffs of Kazemita1's recent edit-warring reverts (the ones in bold happened after your warning here to stop edit-warring):

• " and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years".

1. 15:30, 13 December 2019
2. 10:52, 13 December 2019
3. 18:13, 4 December 2019
4. 17:14, 29 November 2019
5. 05:50, 29 November 2019

• " shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran"

1. 15:30, 13 December 2019
2. 10:52, 13 December 2019
3. 08:20, 6 December 2019
4. 18:19, 4 December 2019

Barca (talk) 23:52, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Did you try bringing this to their attention? Specifically, about these two items? El_C 23:57, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Their response to this was "@Barca: Just take the diff between your last edit on Dec. 9th and the version I restored the article to on Dec. 13th and you will know." but as you can see by the diffs this is simply continuing edit-warring. Barca (talk) 05:20, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dear @El C:, I am left with no choice but to say Barca is being untruthful here. Here is Barca's last edit on December 9th, right before the edit warring started, in which he consented to the addition of the following statements:

• " and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years".
• " shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and cult-like attributes."

Please, note that he did not edit the article any further for two days after that and one would naturally think this is a sign of consent. Two days later, on Dec. 11th when me, Ypatch and Emilcioran were all blocked and could not comment on any of his edits he deleted the above mentioned statements. He is now trying to present the facts as if I cheated. To show you further evidence, here is Emilcioran's edit and Ypatche's edit -who even though were opposing my edit- all included the above mentioned statements. In other words I am trying to say there is consensus on the version of the article I restored after recovery from block. And finally this is the diff between my edit right after recovery from block and Barca's last edit on Dec. 9th that shows they are the same word for word.Kazemita1 (talk) 05:48, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Kazemita1, You were making many reverts in single edits, some of which I agreed with, and some of which I didn't, but because they were done in single edits, they were difficult to dissect. About these two lines Barca is pointing out, I did not consent to adding this to the article nor did I give consensus, so please don't say this on my behalf. You've been removing and adding info through your self-made consensus, and you seem to still be doing this. Ypatch (talk) 14:10, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ypatch, I do not say anything on your behalf; your edits do. You did not raise any concerns against Barca's edit on December 9th neither in the talk page nor via your edits in the article. As a matter of fact when I tried to change the article, you restored it to the version proposed by Barca. According to WP:CON, this means you either fully agreed to Barca's edit or you found his edit a good compromise. In either case, consensus is implied.--Kazemita1 (talk) 21:37, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: Can you please check this? The diffs show obvious edit warring, and Kazemita1's justification for them is baffling. Barca (talk) 12:57, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As an FYI, another admin investigated this matter in edit warring noticeboard per Barca's report right here.--Kazemita1 (talk) 04:00, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And the admin say "that 'Joe Smith supported this version in a past dispute' surely doesn't prove that it enjoys consensus to go in right now." Because there is no consensus, I'm restoring to long-standing version (just like Mhhossein did recently. Barca (talk) 14:39, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would be careful if I were you, given another admins ultimatum regarding this article:

"Edit warring, even if it involves efforts to restore the longstanding text, will be responded to harshly, including with escalating blocks and article bans."

I invite you to respond to my proposal that I had left on your talk page to find a middle ground thru discussions.--Kazemita1 (talk) 17:01, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Line break

Sigh. Although Kazemita1's contention that there is consensus for their edits seem to be tenuous, at best, BarcrMac reverting to the "longstanding version" ... "just like Mhhossein did recently" without trying to further discuss the content of the edits themselves was a mistake. A mistake for which they were blocked for 2 weeks. Key word here is substantiate. Substantiate your edits well in advance, with a focus on the content. The timeline and what constitutes longstanding text is key, also, to be sure — but this isn't a legal game where you prove what the longstanding text is and everything else stalls from there on. There needs to be, dare I say, lively discussion about why this or that is or isn't appropriate for the article. Again, please do better, everyone, and engage the content rather than the restriction rules. El_C 17:28, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: You blocked Barca for reverting to the longstanding version of the article. Didn't Mhhossein do exactly the same thing a few days ago (here and here)? Didn't Kazemita1 restore material to the article without consensus (here and here)? why wasn't he blocked for this also? Ypatch (talk) 03:52, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Because they at least attempted to substantiate by discussing the actual content — was I not clear about that? El_C 03:57, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: Yes, you were clear, but didn't Barca attempted to substantiate by discussing the content here? Ypatch (talk) 19:47, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That was ten days ago and does not seem to relate to the same series of edits. El_C 19:50, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: The edits are about these two sentences:

• " and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years".
• ""shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and cult-like attributes."

And Barca's discussion ten days ago attempted to discuss these two edits:

• "Also the sentence "and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years"" in the lead section is POV since the MEK attacks on the IRI are already in the next sentences - "it was involved, alongside Saddam Hussain, in Operation Mersad,[58][59] Operation Forty Stars, and the 1991 nationwide uprisings.[60][61][50]" and "According to Sandra Mackey, the MEK responded by targeting key Iranian official figures for assassination: they bombed the Prime Minister's office, attacked low-ranking civil servants and members of the Revolutionary Guards, along with ordinary citizens who supported the new government.[47] The MEK "have been careful to demonstrate their reluctance to resort to violence" and mention that violence is imposed on them.[48]""

• "Also the sentence "Those who criticize the group refer to it as "a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran" in the lead section can be mixed with the previous sentence which is already about criticisms, and the thing about "support inside Iran" is already in the lead - "a decision that was viewed as treason by the vast majority of Iranians and that destroyed the MEK's appeal in its homeland.[56]" (which already has POV problems)."

Did I miss something? Ypatch (talk) 20:56, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That still did not address the latest series of edits, because these were after. Anyway, the point is that that was ten days ago, in another section. More recently, they could have said (nay, should have said): to summarize my argument from a week ago, your latest edits failed to fulfill my expectations in the following ways [etc.]. But instead of saying anything (at all) about the content, they just went on about the longstanding text over and over. Which is just not good enough. The adversarial fixation about the restrictions in unhealthy to the article. And when it is coupled with an absence of discussion about content, one which also leads to unsubstantiated reverts, actually disruptive. El_C 21:25, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: I agree that adversarial fixation is not a good approach, but I do see Barca discussing the two sentences in question. On the other hand, after we all recently got blocked, Kazemita1 put back those two sentences without discussing in this talk page, which isn't a good approach either. Why wasn't he blocked? Ypatch (talk) 01:50, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Because it didn't strike me as constituting edit warring. Perhaps that was a mistake. El_C 15:06, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: Kazemita1 is reverting edits that formed part of the recent edit warring without consensus again: [11] [12] [13]. Can you please respond about this? Ypatch (talk) 14:53, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I can't tell what those are reverts of, if they are reverts at all — because your report is too terse. No links to any substantive objections on your part, either. That is not how this is supposed to work. You need to do better, Ypatch. If you can't bother to expand and address (including the editor in question themselves!) the points under contention, I would rather you not ping me at all. El_C 15:16, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: In this edit, Kazemita1 removed the following:

• "The book is about the 1988 massacres of political prisoners in Iran, and explains that about 30,000 people were executed, with the majority being MEK members.

This was previously removed by Kazemita in this edit, this edit, this edit, this edit, this edit, and this edit. That sentence is also currently being debated in the Talk page discussion "Excessive information about a book", for which no consensus has been determined yet.

Also in this edit, Kazemita1 removed the following:

• "Those who back the MEK describe the group as proponents of "a free and democratic Iran" that could become the next government there.^[1].

This was previously removed by Kazemita in this edit, this edit, and this edit. That sentence is also currently being debated in the Talk page discussion "Why it would be wrong to remove those two sentences", for which no consensus has been determined yet. Ypatch (talk) 16:50, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Kazemita1 blocked for 2 weeks for inserting and reinserting text that was objected to. Even as a compromise, consensus for these edits ought to have been secured (again, use dispute resolution and accompanying requests toward that end). Participants should, again, note that the time for being bold is long passed. Making one's proposals here on the article talk page first is the recommended course of action. Apply these to the article only when you are relatively confident the edits enjoy consensus and that they do not constitute edit warring (restoring edits that were previously reverted). While a discussion commences, the longstanding text ought to stay in place. We already agreed to define what it is, generally (about one month of agreement, or at least WP:SILENCE). Please make sure you prove what it is, for specific edits, because that is often not easy to assess (for me, at least). El_C 17:24, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: Per your advice that "While a discussion commences, the longstanding text ought to stay in place", I am requesting your permission to restore the sentence that Kazemita1 removed from the article:

• "Those who back the MEK describe the group as proponents of "a free and democratic Iran" that could become the next government there.^[2].

That sentence was added to the article over a month ago (I cannot find the exact date, but in this diff on October 19th shows that info was already in the article, which makes it part of the long-standing text), and is being discussed in the Talk page discussion here. Thanks for letting me know if that's ok. Ypatch (talk) 18:13, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: Can you please answer my previous post? I don't want to get blocked for what to me looks like following the article's restrictions. Ypatch (talk) 16:50, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I thought it was obvious that, at this point in time, you need to substantiate your objection to that (any!) change rather than simply seek to blindly revert on account of an edit being deemed longstanding text. No? Please don't make me write such a qualification every time. Substantiate in advance, please! El_C 17:32, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: I had substantiated it in the section "Why it would be wrong to remove those two sentences". My objection is that that statement is supported by this RS, forms part of the long-standing text, and there wasn't a substantiated reason when it was removed by Kazemita who in their edit summary said "There is enough agreement towards removing the Guardian source", but that is not the case. Ypatch (talk) 18:08, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, well, I'm not going to re-read the entire article talk page every time I'm pinged about something here. If you address me, please indicate where the pertinent discussion has taken place at. As for your request, you don't really need to consult me. If there isn't an ongoing edit war and if the proposed revert to the longstanding text was substantiated, then you are free to revert back. The notion that any revert may result in a block unless it gets the green light from me first, is one I wish to dispel. El_C 18:43, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why it would be wrong to remove those two sentences

@EmilCioran1195, Saff V., BarcrMac, Ypatch, and Mhhossein:. In what follows I will be addressing the reason why these two sentences have a natural place in the article:

• " and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years".
• " shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and cult-like attributes."

Now see what the source says for the first sentence:

The organization gained a new life in exile, founding the National Council of Resistance of Iran and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years"

Essentially, by a new life in exile, it is not endorsing the group's activity; it is actually saying they continued their terrorst activity. I understand some people might have sympathy with the group, but we have to be faithful to the source. If we remove the part that Barca removed, i.e. and "continued to conduct limited terrorist attacks in Iran for years" we will be changing the source.

As for the second sentence, this is from the Guardian source that is also used a few lines later to describe what proponents of the group say:

critics of the group in recent years (such as experts,[70] various scholarly works, media outlets, HRW[71], and the governments of the United States and France[72] have described it as a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and cult-like attributes.[73] Those who back the MEK describe the group as proponents of "a free and democratic Iran" that could become the next government there

Guardian tried to explain each side believes about this group. Naturally, you would want both voices heard. By removing the voice of critics you are putting the article out of balance.--Kazemita1 (talk) 03:13, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"shadowy outfit" seems a bit much. Also inaccurate, they crave publicity and stage mass events. EmilCioran1195 (talk) 04:31, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I mean it is from the same source that says "Those who back the MEK describe the group as proponents of "a free and democratic Iran". It is attributing both sides. --Kazemita1 (talk) 06:45, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Kazemita1: Thanks for attempting to resolve the issues via TP discussion, though I believe you could express the comments in a more accurate manner. I am really puzzled why you are referring to "critics of the group in recent years (such as experts,[70]..." as being supported by reliable sources. Also, please link to the sources when ever you write "source" (or at least do it on the first usage please.) Anyway, you are suggesting to add two sentences to the lead and here's my opinion; the first one is really missing since it fits the time line of the MEK's activity in terms of saying their civil attacks were not stopped after their departure from Iran.

As for the second one, I partially agree since the second portion, i.e. "and cult-like attributes" is already included in a more accurate manner (also see this comment). The first portion of the sentence, i.e. "shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran", merits inclusion however, specially because the Guardian source is already used to reflect the voice of the group's supporters, so why not using it to show what the critics think? --Mhhossein ^talk 10:28, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We need to take stuff out of this article, not fill it with more POV. This was suggested by Vanamonde here. I'm against adding more POV. We should keep to clear and major points only, and these two sentences don't add anything that isn't already in the article. Ypatch (talk) 19:49, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am against adding POV to the lead, too. So, let's remove the POVish phrase "Those who back the MEK describe the group as proponents of "a free and democratic Iran" that could become the next government there." It is the POV of "Those who back the MEK", so should be removed because of being a POV. Also, the rest of your comment, i.e. "these two sentences don't add anything that isn't already in the article", is a self made argument which certainly is not applicable here. Lead should contain the key points of the article. MEK's reception is one of them, I think. --Mhhossein ^talk 20:17, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What do these sentences add to isn't in the article already? Until this is clearly explained, I'm against adding this to the article. Alex-h (talk) 11:15, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Alex, please note that these sentences are in the middle of a paragraph taken from a single source. As mentioned by Mhhossein, we can of course remove the previous sentence from the same source as well. For example, we could remove both proponents of "a free and democratic Iran" as well as "shadowy outfit". In other words you cannot remove a negative comment made by an author and leave the positive one only. You either leave both or remove both. I think Emilcioran's approach was rather towards neutrality. He suggested we balance it by leaving one negative point and one positive point.--Kazemita1 (talk) 11:57, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That same Guardian source says "Critics and many of those who have left the group in recent years describe it as a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and many cult-like attributes, which is something we have in the lead of the article already. We either include what "critics" and "supporters" say, or neither (I would lean towards neither to clean up the article of POV). Ypatch (talk) 17:17, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

MEK being described as cult is not what only "critics" do. Many experts and scholarly works have said the group is a cult. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:45, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Ypatch when you wrote "which is something we have in the lead of the article already" you have to provide duplicated material, just mentioning "we have in the lead of the article already" is not enough. I agree with picking up "shadowy outfit" which doesn't bring specific info into the article however I aginst to remove "little support inside Iran" as brilliant keywords have to be included into the lead.Saff V. (talk) 07:02, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that cherry picking which POVs are removed and which remain is the best way to go here. We either work towards removing most of the POV claims, or none at all. We can't pick and choose which ones we like and which ones we don't like since that's a form of POV pushing in of itself. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 16:00, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. So, in light of that fact (that there should be no cherry picking), are you for or against leaving the statements made by the Guardian article?Kazemita1 (talk) 21:09, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We either work towards removing most of the POV claims, or none at all. If we remove the Guardian POV statements in favor and against the MEK, then the allegations in the lede that the MEK is a cult needs to be removed as well. In a similar example, there are countless sources that describe the Trump administration as a "cult", yet you won't find the word "cult" on its Wiki article; that's because that article is better monitored than this one is. Similarly, we should aim to include mostly factual points (the MEK being a "cult" is not factual, despite what some people would want others to believe). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 12:52, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Stefka Bulgaria: Please don't repeat that old comparison between this article and that of Donald Trump, the latter being a BLP (your comment was responded multiple months ago). I can't figure out on what basis are you asking for removal of something which is backed by "Many experts,[71] various scholarly works, media outlets, HRW,[72] and the governments of the United States and France[73]"? Please make a clear response to this question without mixing this with irrelevant topics: Do you have any fair and substantiated objections against removing the POVs (both from the supporters and the critics) from the Guardian? --Mhhossein ^talk 13:53, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

On the basis of POV pushing, which the cult allegations are, as the Guardian article so eloquently put it:

"Critics and many of those who have left the group in recent years describe it as a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and many cult-like attributes, condemned to die out at the obscure base in Albania because of its enforced celibacy rules."

"But for its backers, which include many politicians and, notably, members of Donald Trump’s inner circle, the MEK are tireless fighters for a free and democratic Iran who could potentially become the country’s next government."

That is POV in favor, and against it. If we remove one side's POV, then we also need to remove the other side's POV. Removing one side and leaving the other is POV pushing. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 14:44, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Look, "Many experts,[71] various scholarly works, media outlets, HRW,[72] and the governments of the United States and France[73]" and "critics and many of those who have left the group in recent years" are describing MEK as being cult. This is no longer a simple POV, I think, and the Guardian is not what gonna be the criteria for judgement here. Being a cult is already supported by many reliable sources other than the Guardian. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:27, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is the sentence in the lede that's disputed:

• "Many experts,[71] various scholarly works, media outlets, HRW,[72] and the governments of the United States and France[73] have described it as a cult built around its leaders, Massoud and Maryam Rajavi.[74]"

And this is what those sources say:

• " The M.E.K., which professes an eccentric variant of Islam, has been characterized by many experts as resembling a cult." The quote speaks for itself: has been charaterized as resembling a cult (this does not support the statement currently in the lede).
• [14] HRW doesn't even describe it as a cult (This does not support the statement currently in the lede, and HRW should be removed unless there is a substantiated reason not to).
• "French Foreign Ministry spokesman Romain Nadal criticized the People’s Mujahedeen of Iran, or Mujahedeen-e-Khalq, for “its violent and non-democratic inspirations,” ″cult nature” and “intense campaign of influence and disinformation.” This is the statement of of Nadal who "criticized the People’s Mujahedeen of Iran" for its "cult nature" (also this does not support the statement currently in the lede).
• "Critics and many of those who have left the group in recent years describe it as a shadowy outfit with little support inside Iran and many cult-like attributes, condemned to die out at the obscure base in Albania because of its enforced celibacy rules." This statement also refers that this is refers to "critics" of the group (which also does not support the statement currently in the lede).

A BBC source used later in the article presents both sides of the argument:

"One colonel I spoke to, who had daily contact with the MEK leadership for six months in 2004, said that the organisation was a cult, and that some of the members who wanted to get out had to run away... And yet another officer, who was there at precisely the same time and is now a retired general ... "Cult? How about admirably focused group?" he says. "And I never heard of anyone being held against their will."

There is a debate forth and against this (forth by critics, and against by supporters). Adding either side is POV pushing, and the proposal here is to clean the article from POV pushing. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 11:01, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Kazemita1 removed ""Those who back the MEK describe the group as proponents of "a free and democratic Iran" that could become the next government there", but the part about those critical of the MEK describing it as a cult was kept. We should restore the long-standing version until we figure out if we'll keep or remove both support and criticisms in the lead. Ypatch (talk) 18:01, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, there are plenty of many other sources calling the group a Cult. Some even call them "totalitarian cult". When assessing the POVs, one has to take the weight of each POV into consideration. "One colonel", whom we don't know, is never going to be as weighty as "many experts" and "scholarly works". By the way, there's no much different between MEK being described as "resembling" cult and 'being' a cult, in light of many other reliable and neutral sources saying they are cult. There is an illusion here; MEK being a cult is not merely an accusation by the group's critics, rather many scholars, politicians and experts are saying that. --Mhhossein ^talk 08:56, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You are citing the Guardian, then why are you ignoring this infamous long-read by the Guardian saying MEK is "Widely regarded as a cult"! Also, a quick search in books brings you good results. For instance, see this book by Routledge saying MEK finally turned into a "destructive cult". --Mhhossein ^talk 09:15, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhossein: i have analyzed the sources supporting the statement in the lede, and described why they don't support the statement as is. I have also showed how major press, such as the BBC and Guardian, describe critics referring to the MEK as having "Cult-like attributes", and how supporters dismiss those claims. In other words, if you want to make a case that the MEK is referred to objectively as a "cult", then you need to provide several reliable sources that say the MEK is objectively a "cult". So far, you've provided a chapter in a book written by a MEK defector and an article by www.middleeasteye.net, which is not enough to objectively render any political group as a "cult". Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 10:04, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And I showed how flawed your analysis was. You are cherry picking the sources to show there's no source saying MEK is a cult! this infamous long-read by the Guardian saying MEK is "Widely regarded as a cult"! The RAND report dedicates a whole section on "MEK as a Cult" and it cites HRW as having the same description (see p. 69). The report further proves that MEK is a cult:

"MeK leaders and supporters vigorously deny that the MeK is a cult. They allege that former MeK members and critics of the MeK are either Iranian agents or their dupes. However, interviews with U.S. military and civilian officials, information voluntarily furnished by former MeK members at the ARC, and visits to Camp Ashraf suggest that these denials are not credible. The cult characteristics described in this appendix have been widely reported by former MeK members and by Human Rights Watch. They have also been substantiated, at least in part, by interviews with JIATF-Ashraf officers and by information volunteered by former MeK members at the ARC.

There are plenty of other sources saying the same thing, some of them are already used in "designation as a cult". --Mhhossein ^talk 15:18, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I indeed did not "cherry pick the sources to show there's no source saying MEK is a cult!", I just provided an analysis of the current sources in the lede which, as I showed, do not support the statement that the MEK is a "cult", but rather that "critics" (as the Guardian source puts it) have described the MEK as having "cult-like characteristics" (which is considerably different). Also, where is the Human Rights Watch source that says that the MEK is a "cult"? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 13:24, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You provided an analysis but we won't act based on the user's own analysis (per WP:No Original Research). Btw, the act of preferring this source over this long read, which says MEK is "Widely regarded as a cult", is pretty much like cherry picking. Note that according to the Guardian, "takes real time to develop, research, edit and produce. Every article in The Guardian’s Long Read is the result of months, and sometimes even years, of work. We give our writers the time and space to uncover every detail needed so they can tell important, complex stories with the thoroughness they deserve." For HRW, see the Rand report I already provided. --Mhhossein ^talk 19:32, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhossein, that's a single source; hardly enough for justifying such a big claim the the lede of the article, wouldn't you say? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 15:31, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Specially when another article by the Guardian clearly specifies that these are statements by critics (making it not an objective truth, which is how it's currently being presented in the lede). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 15:40, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, not a single source. There are dozens of reliable sources making similar conclusions regarding MEK. The problem is that you are sticking to your source and ignore a higher quality source! why? --Mhhossein ^talk 10:27, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

While Mhhossein and Stefka discuss the cult sources in the lead section, I will restore the following long standing text removed by Kazemita1 without a substantiated reason:

• "Those who back the MEK describe the group as proponents of "a free and democratic Iran" that could become the next government there.^[1].

As I have explained to El_C, my objection is that this statement is supported by this RS, forms part of the long-standing text, and there wasn't a substantiated reason when it was removed by Kazemita who in their edit summary said "There is enough agreement towards removing the Guardian source", but that is not the case. Ypatch (talk) 03:00, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ypatch: That's another violation the page's restrictions. Your claims are wrong; You removed it just amid our discussion (and what follows) on what sentences should be included in the lead and you never substantiated why the sentence has to be restored! I have already explained (see my comments above) why you this edit would add to POV issue. @El C: I think an admin action is needed here. Despite what Ypatch claims, our discussion on "cult sources in the lead section" is not something separated from our discussion on including the opinion of "those who back the MEK". Ypatch's revert is not substantiated and he has relied on his explanation to you as a justification for the edit. This is a clear breach of the page's restrictions. --Mhhossein ^talk 07:03, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhossein I'm not immediately able to identify that revert as a violation. Ypatch appears to have substantiated their revert (albeit more tersely than I would like) back to the longstanding text. El_C 07:11, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@El C: Thanks for the response. Before I provide more details, can you show where/how he substantiated his revert? --Mhhossein ^talk 07:18, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's directly above: [the] statement is supported by this RS, forms part of the long-standing text, and there wasn't a substantiated reason when it was removed by Kazemita. El_C 07:28, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

El_C: Well, I would not say there was no substantiation behind its removal. Let me say the whole story in brief; It was disputed why MEK's being described as cult should stay when the sentence on "those who back the group" is removed. This was because Ypatch and others were trying to show that the description of MEK as cult was solely done by the critics and hence a counter POV was needed. From the other hand, I showed that there are numerous reliable and neutral sources describing the group as a cult (my comments [15], [16], [17] and [18]). If there's anything needing to be balanced, that is actually the sentence on "those who back the group" which should be counter-balanced by a sentence from those who criticize the group. This source by the Guardian, which is already used in the lead, contains both POVs, i.e. the pov of "those who back the group" and "those who criticize the group". --Mhhossein ^talk 09:02, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As I showed above, the majority of these sources describe the MEK as having a "cult-like nature" or "resembling a cult", and yet the lede says that these sources have described the MEK as a "Cult". That's a misrepresentation of the sources. Also this Guardian source specifically says this refers to critics of the group, while backers have a different view on the matter. The diffs you provided do not address these points, which are crucial in this discussion. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:12, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhossein, by all means, make a proposal to add that counterview. Stefka Bulgaria, if that is the case, then, indeed, the "cult-like" qualification would be warranted. El_C 09:22, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

El_C: Ok, I will go by making the proposal. Also, I have showed multiple times, among them here, that Stefka Bulgaria is cherry picking that Guardian source again other higher quality sources to say his point. Though I am ready to see his points (not further cherry picking or gaming please). --Mhhossein ^talk 09:32, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The paragraph on MEK's cult nature/charcteristics

The Guardian already addresses "Critics" and "Supporters" in a clear manner:

• "Critics and many of those who have left the group in recent years describe it as [having] many cult-like attributes. But for its backers, which include many politicians and, notably, members of Donald Trump’s inner circle, the MEK are tireless fighters for a free and democratic Iran who could potentially become the country’s next government.

We have something similar currently in the lede, it just lacks the clarification "Critics and many of those who have left the group describe it as having cult-like attributes". I would be fine with using the Guardian's "critics" and "supporters" synthesis (most of which is already in the article's lede). May I go ahead and use the Guardian's synthesis? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:33, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I asked you to not cherry pick one source. The answer to your question is NO because this infamous long-read by the Guardian says MEK is "Widely regarded as a cult"! As you know Guardian long-read "takes real time to develop, research, edit and produce. Every article in The Guardian’s Long Read is the result of months, and sometimes even years, of work. We give our writers the time and space to uncover every detail needed so they can tell important, complex stories with the thoroughness they deserve." --Mhhossein ^talk 07:03, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Widely regarded" does not discard that these statements can be coming from critics (which the MEK has many), as these sources specify:

• "Described by critics as 'a cult'

  (Middle Eastern Eye)

• "Critics call the exiled Iranian opposition group Mojahedin-e Khalq (MEK) 'cult-like'"

  (CBC)

• "Critics and many of those who have left the group in recent years describe it as [having] many cult-like attributes. But for its backers, which include many politicians and, notably, members of Donald Trump’s inner circle, the MEK are tireless fighters for a free and democratic Iran who could potentially become the country’s next government.

  The Guardian

• " (MEK), an Iranian exile group often described by critics as a cult"

  (The Daily Beast)

• "Such words as “cult/terrorist” are similar to how the Iranian regime describes the MeK, suggesting that Tehran’s disinformation program has been effective. Here is a quotation from the Fars News Agency, a unit of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC). Fars quotes the Commander of Iran’s notorious Basij Forces of the IRGC, Brigadier General Mohammad Reza Naqdi, who said, “Iraqis hate the MKO [MeK] much and the only reason for the presence of the grouplet in Iraq is the US support for this terrorist cult.”

  (National Interest)

I can look for more, but these are enough sources supporting this already. I propose we add "Critics" to the lede based on these sources. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 12:24, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am restoring to the longstanding version because more discussion is needed to conclude what we should include in the led to describe the MEK being designated as cult. Anyway, you have found some sources saying they are not saying MEK is a cult rather they say it "resembles a cult" or things like this. However you are ignoring the reliable academic sources which say, as fact and without making attributions, that MEK is considered as cult:

• From RAND:

"MeK leaders and supporters vigorously deny that the MeK is a cult...However, interviews with U.S. military and civilian officials, information voluntarily furnished by former MeK members at the ARC, and visits to Camp Ashraf suggest that these denials are not credible. The cult characteristics described in this appendix have been widely reported by former MeK members and by Human Rights Watch. They have also been substantiated, at least in part, by interviews with JIATF-Ashraf officers and by information volunteered by former MeK members at the ARC."

This source say despite the denials by MEK and it supporters, there are clues substantiating that MEK is a cult. Just see how the text says the "characteristics" are "substantiated" which means RAND knows them as a cult.

• A long-read from the Guardian:

"Widely regarded as a cult, the MEK was once designated as a terrorist organisation by the US and UK, but its opposition to the Iranian government has now earned it the support of powerful hawks in the Trump administration, including national security adviser John Bolton and the secretary of state, Mike Pompeo."

Does it need explanations?

• "Yes, Mujahedin al-Khalq Is a Dishonest Cult" by Commentary:

"The MKO is not only a creepy cult, and willing to say anything to buy support regardless of the group’s record, but an empty shell as well."

• Revisionism and Diversification in New Religious Movements, edited by Eileen Barker and published by Routledge:

"The process involved in the "ideological revolution" saw MEK completing its metamorphosis into a destructive cult.

• In the previous source, Ervand Abrahamian is quoted as saying:

By mid-1987, mojahedin organization had all main attributes of a cult.

• The Cult of Rajavi by Nyt!!!

This innovative description was later adopted and quoted by other sources.

• The Cult of MEK authored by Prospect:

"Accidentally or not, though, the speakers were helping to raise the profile and legitimize the aims of a cult group that will not bring democracy to Iran and has no popular support in the country."

• Will the Presence of Iran’s MEK Threaten Albania’s Already Shaky Stability? by World Politics Review:

"A shadowy outfit committed to the overthrow of Iran’s theocratic regime, the MEK is often described as a cult and used to be classified by the State Department as a terrorist organization."

• "Why Trump’s Hawks Back the MEK Terrorist Cult"

"Commonly called a cult by most observers, the MEK systematically abuses its members, most of whom are effectively captives of the organization, according to Human Rights Watch (HRW)."

• Mujahadeen-e-Khalq (MEK) by Council on Foreign Relations:

"Many analysts, including Rubin, have characterized the MEK as a cult, citing the group’s fealty to the Rajavis."

There are probably some other sources making similar description of MEK and they don't use terms such as "cult-like" or "cult-attributes" or etc. So please let the discussion go before making further reverts. By the way, the current version of lead is wrongly showing all the sources as using "cult-like". I suggest proposing a draft here, before any direct change to the lead. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:48, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mhhossein: The NYT source by Michael Rubin seems to be the closest RS supporting this claim. Most of the other source either do not support what is currently in the lede or are not by reliable sources or authors:

• The New York Review of books by Trita Parsi (an unreliable source by someone who has been described as a "Lobbyist for Iran")

• Commentary Magazine (an unreliable source by the same NYT source author)

• Chapter by Masoud Banisadr. You have used this source several times quoting it as "Eileen Barker", when the actual author is Masoud Banisadr, a "former MEK member" who dedicates the whole of his professional work to speak against the MEK.

• The American Prospect (far from being a reliable source)

• World Politics Review (far from being a reliable source)

@El C: I'm really trying not to ping you, but reverting back something in the article that isn't supported by its current sources is something that I see as a problem. You previously assessed that indeed, the "cult-like" qualification would be warranted", but Mhhossein nevertheless reverted back to this (something the current sources there do not support):

• "Many experts,[70] various scholarly works, media outlets, HRW,[71] and the governments of the United States and France[72] have described it as a cult built around its leaders, Massoud and Maryam Rajavi."

What the current sources supporting this say:

• "has been characterized by many experts as resembling a cult. " The New Yorker
• "French Foreign Ministry spokesman Romain Nadal criticized the People’s Mujahedeen of Iran for [...] its ″cult nature”" AP News
• " has been described as having cult-like attributes" The Guardian
• "Human Rights Watch report on MEK abuses in their camp. Quote on leadership devotion: "The MKO’s leadership consists of the husband and wife team of Masoud and Maryam Rajavi."HRW (Which doesn't even mention the word "cult"!)

I could continue debating new sources with Mhhossein, but the point is that the version Mhhossein reverted to is not supported by the current sources there. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:58, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The key point is that I already provided sources supporting the current wording (except for "many experts" saying the resemble a cult) and you can't simply dismiss the sources by writing "far from being reliable". Also your edit had inserted inaccuracies into the led, as I already explained in my previous comment (why do you ignore them?). Also I don't know why you tend to repeat old things over and over (exactly like what you did here). I am not going to repeat my comments here. Anyway, I have done some changes here to make it more accurate. Finaly, . --Mhhossein ^talk 15:11, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe launch an RfC about this, so that you can get some outside input into this dispute... My own view, incidentally, is that to say that the MEK is a cult outright does not seem to mirror the available sources. It comes across as an hyperbole. By contrast, referring to cult-like attributes seems like a good compromise that resolves that. El_C 17:06, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mhhossein: If you wish to include in the lede of the article that certain entities "have described the MEK as a cult built around its leaders, Massoud and Maryam Rajavi", you need RSs confirming just that. So far, I pointed out the unreliable sources you provided are no good for backing up this statement, and the only reliable source available (the New York Times) is already being used to in the "Other names" section to state "The Cult of Rajavi or Rajavi Cult", which I also find to by another hyperbole (using El_C's terminology). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:02, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Elizabeth Rubin piece comes across as a "damming article against the MEK", certainly a one-sided criticism of the group. Perhaps worth unraveling with other views elsewhere in the article, but in the lead section of the article it becomes WP:UNDUE POV. Ypatch (talk) 15:23, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Since the previous section where we were following the discussions on how to use was hard to navigate, I suggest we continue the talks here. There had been some changes to this paragraph. We concluded that "many experts" say the group "resemble" a cult. However, "Various scholarly works, media outlets" was removed for being unsourced despite the fact that "the presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article" per MOS:CITELEAD. However, the body of the article is already featured with the citations supporting the phrase. Anyway, I'm restoring the material accompanied by the requested citations. Btw, simply saying a source is not reliable, it does not make us believe the source is not reliable. --Mhhossein ^talk 14:22, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't currently have much time to look at the new sources, but I see that the BBC article used for the claim that the US described the MEK as a "Cult" includes an interview with one officer saying the MEK is a cult, and another interview with another officer saying the MEK is instead an "admirably focused group". The mainspace also has sources saying the US has criticized the MEK at some points, and supported it at other. This needs to be better presented in the same way the source is presenting it (more neutrally), so moving this to the section "Designation as a cult". Ypatch (talk) 20:34, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the continuing accusations by Mhhossein that I'm trying to "Game" the system by revisiting topics that had been discussed in the past, I won't go further in this discussion even though, upon analysis, it's fairly obvious that some of the sources that Mhhossein has included in the lede don't actually represent what it's being said.

What Mhhossein inserted in the lede:

" Various scholarly works^[1][2][3], media outlets^[4][5] has described it as a cult built around its leaders, Massoud and Maryam Rajavi."

What sources actually say:

• "an exiled Iranian cult dissident group that Saddam Hussein had invited into Iraq to fight on his behalf during the Iran-Iraq War." RAND (Think tank)

• "But critics question that commitment, given the cult of personality built around MEK's leader, Maryam Rajavi" (refers to critics, more consistent with the RSs I provided below)^[6]

• "By mid-1987, mojahedin organization had all main attributes of a cult. (having the "main attributes of a cult" does not mean they are a "cult") ^[3]

• "The coup de grace that metamorphosed the party into something more like a husband-and-wife-led cult was Massoud's spectacular theft of his colleague's wife" Even though this article comprises only of a criticism of the MEK, it still does not support that "media outlets describe it as a cult" Elizabeth Rubin

• "Widely regarded as a cult" Does not support that "media outlets describe it as a cult". The Guardian

On the other hand, RSs saying that critics describe the MEK as having cult-personality or cult-like characteristics are more consistent:

• "But critics question that commitment, given the cult of personality built around MEK's leader, Maryam Rajavi"^[7]

• "Described by critics as 'a cult' Middle Eastern Eye

• "Critics call the exiled Iranian opposition group Mojahedin-e Khalq (MEK) 'cult-like'" CBC

• "Critics and many of those who have left the group in recent years describe it as [having] many cult-like attributes. But for its backers, which include many politicians and, notably, members of Donald Trump’s inner circle, the MEK are tireless fighters for a free and democratic Iran who could potentially become the country’s next government. The Guardian

• " (MEK), an Iranian exile group often described by critics as a cult" The Daily Beast

Per the analysis above, there are many more RSs saying that "critics" refer to the MEK as having "cult-like characteristics", than the current statement that "various scholarly works and media outlets" outright describe the MEK as a "cult". Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 11:13, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Based on Stefka's analysis of the sources, I'll add "critics" to that then, putting in all the sources that say "critics". I'll also remove any sources that don't support neither "critics" nor "Various scholarly works, media outlets have described it as a cult built around its leaders, Massoud and Maryam Rajavi." That should leave us with a more accurate representation of sources. Ypatch (talk) 22:01, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are two Guardian sources for the "cult" attribution. The first writes "Widely regarded as a cult", and the second writes "has been described as having cult-like attributes". The first "Widely regarded as a cult" does not support that "media outlets have described it as a cult", but the second guardian source does support "cult-like attributes". Removing the first Guardian source that says "Widely regarded as a cult" since it does not support "media outlets have described it as a cult", and keeping the second Guardian source that supports what's in the article ("has been described as having cult-like attributes.") Ypatch (talk) 22:15, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Various scholarly works, media outlets have described it as a cult built around its leaders, Massoud and Maryam Rajavi" is now supported by 1 source, while "critics, HRW and many experts, describing the group as "resembling" a cult" is supported by 10 sources. The first part is WP:UNDUE in comparison to the second, so removing it on that basis. Ypatch (talk) 18:19, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ypatch is engaging edit war despite being warned and blocked for violating the page's restriction. Amid the ongoing discussions he is inserting his desired version against the longstanding version. Instead of starting a RFC for making the changes, as suggested by EI_C, Ypatch is destabilizing the article by dragging it into a real edit warring.

• This is longstanding version of the article (with some modifications after it was concluded that some sources are describing the group as "resembling" a cult).
• Stefka Bulgaria removed the terms "Various scholarly works, media outlets" from the longstanding version.
• I restored to the longstanding version and tried to substantiate my objection here. Please note that I opened a new TP topic for the disputed issue.
• Any further removal of "Various scholarly works, media outlets", without building consensus, would be counted as violation of the restrictions, and to my surprise, Ypatch has removed them again without trying to build consensus.

His other edits like [19], which are reverting already restored materials, can also be deemed as a edit warring. @El C: It was not really how we decided to work. We don't revert solely because there's an explanation. I am not going to restore the longstanding version before your comment. I think Ypatch recent edits are clearly violating the restriction. --Mhhossein ^talk 07:29, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But it wasn't removed again per se., the word "critics" was supplanted instead. If that is also a revert (if that happened before), you need to demonstrate that. As an aside, mere removal of longstanding text —a unique instance thereof— is not considered itself to be a revert, but rather a bold edit. Those bold edits may be reverted back to the longstanding text, providing the objection to the bold edit is substantiated. El_C 18:06, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

El_C:It was indeed a revert back to this or this version of the article. If that is a revert, it calls for admin action (repeating a revert for changing the lead, where the are substantiated objections against the change). I think this is opening the hands for edit warrens to revert amid discussions, without building consensus. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:27, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Although the word "critics" has been repeated in one of these instances, I'm not inclined to view this as a violation or edit warring. The sentences which follow are quite different. A revert is not just word duplication, but rather also about underlining meaning. El_C 06:48, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I am restoring the paragraph to the longstanding version since I believe the objections are still valid and some users are trying to put their version amid discussion. In response to comments [20], [21], [22] and [23]:

• Abrahamian, on some occasions, describe the MEK as a Cult. For instance, search "Rajavi's personality cult, had two far reaching consequences".
• Rubin's work, which is a piece by 'Media', is calling the group a "cult". So, saying it does not support "media outlets describe it as a cult", is just weird!
• RAND report is indeed an scholarly work. The RAND is a "research and analysis" institution and the report is a well researched work supported by a vast number of sources.
• The American Prospect[24], Council on Foreign Relations[25] and Commentary (magazine)[26] are among the reliable sources such a descriptions are made.
• In this source, "the cult of personality" is used un-attributed and is used in the author's voice. Otherwise we would expect something like "But critics question that commitment, "given [what they consider to be] the cult of personality built around MEK's leader, Maryam Rajavi."
• This is a weird argument for showing something is due/undue. YOU can't make the final conclusion based on YOUR OWN assumptions.
• "Widely regarded as a Cult" in this source is not reflecting the newspaper's voice, yes, and I have now replaced it with another media outlet.

Further removal of the phrase "Various scholarly works, media outlets" from the longstanding version of the article out of discussion process should be avoided without building consensus, given the objections and the given sources. I'm restoring to the longstanding version given the bullets provided and am ready to discuss the points on the talk page. --Mhhossein ^talk 22:42, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These sources have already been analyzed in this section, and El_C approved the update of the article which was purely based on the available source. Mhhossein reverted without consensus. Moreover, Mhhossein removed the numerous sources backing up "Critics". Lastly, here's an analysis of the sources above, which show you've edited here without consensus:

• "Abrahamian, on some occasions, describe the MEK as a Cult. For instance, search "Rajavi's personality cult, had two far reaching consequences"."

That is not equal to "scholarly works" describing the MEK "as a cult built around"

• "Rubin's work, which is a piece by 'Media', is calling the group a "cult". So, saying it does not support "media outlets describe it as a cult", is just weird!"

As Ypatch pointed out: "The Elizabeth Rubin piece comes across as a "damming article against the MEK", certainly a one-sided criticism of the group. Perhaps worth unraveling with other views elsewhere in the article, but in the lead section of the article it becomes WP:UNDUE POV."

• "RAND report is indeed an scholarly work. The RAND is a "research and analysis" institution and the report is a well researched work supported by a vast number of sources."

Doesn't say the MEK is a cult, it says The cult characteristics described in this appendix have been widely reported by former MeK members and by Human Rights Watch. They have also been substantiated, at least in part, by interviews with JIATF-Ashraf officers and by information volunteered by former MeK members at the ARC."

• "The American Prospect[6], Council on Foreign Relations[7] and Commentary (magazine)[8] are among the reliable sources such a descriptions are made."

"The American Prospect" is not RS, "Council of Foreign Relations" cites Rubin's article, a "Commentary Magazine" is another "damming article against the MEK" by another Rubin.

• "In this source, "the cult of personality" is used un-attributed and is used in the author's voice"

That does not equate to it describing the MEK as a "cult".

• "This is a weird argument for showing something is due/undue."

When you have the Rubins saying the MEK is a "dishonest Cult", but you don't have other RS saying the same, then that's an UNDUE statement.

• ""Widely regarded as a Cult" in this source is not reflecting the newspaper's voice, yes, and I have now replaced it with another media outlet.

Ypatch already addressed the Guardian sources. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:44, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The admin's comment starts with suggestion for starting an RFC and his "own view" was to avoid saying "MEK is a cult outright", which we are already respecting by having phrases like some people "has described it as" being MEK with others saying they "resemble" a cult (the latter literally means the group is said by some to have cult-like attributes). So, I would not interpret that comment as "approving" an update. Anyway, as for the bullets:

• Yes, Abrahamian did not use the exact words of the 'cult being built around someone', but there are other reliable sources saying this. Actually cults are always built around something/someone. Anyway, this item, i.e. "built around its leaders", can be prone to further discussions. Probably you may explain why "cult of personality", the description used by Abrahamian, does not equate to saying the cult is being built around its leaders. Also, see CFR saying "Many analysts, including Rubin, have characterized the MEK as a cult, citing the group’s fealty to the Rajavis."
• You two describe the Elizabeth Rubin's work as being "damming article against the MEK" and "certainly a one-sided criticism of the group" and the description seems like WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Likewise you said "Commentary Magazine" is another "damming article against the MEK" by another Rubin."
• The RAND report, clearly describes the group as "an exiled Iranian cult dissident group that Saddam Hussein had invited into Iraq to fight on his behalf during the Iran-Iraq War."
• CFR is not used as a direct source here but it make a general statement: "Many analysts, including Rubin, have characterized the MEK as a cult, citing the group’s fealty to the Rajavis." So, it says "many analysts", "including Rubin", say MEK is a cult. Also, can you say why you think "The American Prospect" is not a reliable source?
• When Abrahamian describes the group as a "the cult of personality", it is describing the group as "cult". What's wrong here?
• "Dishonest Cult" is used no where in the article, nor is used "creepy cult".This argument is baseless. "... is now supported by 1 source"! Simply because there are more supporting sources. -Mhhossein ^talk 16:29, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You can continue to repeat "baseless", but there has already been numerous thorough analyses of the sources that indicate otherwise. You reverted without consensus, which we had received through El_C. Bottom line. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 17:13, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhossein went against a consensus that was approved by El_C without discussing it further with anyone here. Mhhossein should have engaged in a debate with other editors here, as has been happening for a long time now, instead of reverting without discussion. I am reverting Mhhossein's revert until consensus is achieved. Ypatch (talk) 20:32, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhossein edit warring this again! You cannot revert without discussion. Reverting back until another consensus is achieved. Ypatch (talk) 18:44, 8 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hafte Tir bombing

As explained in the article, MEK never admitted to conducting this bombing. As a result, sources are divided on whether MEK was behind this bombing or not. Currently, the content of this section leans toward the sources that deny MEK involvement. @EmilCioran1195, Saff V., BarcrMac, Ypatch, and Mhhossein: Do you find it a good compromise to add one sentence from sources such as the following, that connects the bombing with MEK? And to address the size issue that was brought up by Vanamonde we can perhaps remove "the shadowy outfit" of MEK from the lead as suggested by Emilcioran.

Axworthy, Michael (2016). Revolutionary Iran: A History of the Islamic Republic. Oxford University Press. p. 214. ISBN 9780190468965.--Kazemita1 (talk) 03:20, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that, As discussed here before, it was concluded that "The overall historiography may be used to construct the narrative, from all sources — but newer, more updated ones ought to be the focal point. The overarching description should follow that".Saff V. (talk) 09:20, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is already a Wikipedia article on the Hafte Tir Bombing that describes this incident in detail. If we're trying to clean up this article, then a mention that the IRI blamed the MEK for this event should be enough. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 16:02, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand it correctly you recommend that we remove all the sources in this section; including the ones that deny MEK involvement.--Kazemita1 (talk) 21:11, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What I'm saying is that this can be reduced to one or two sentences since there's already a Wikipedia article about this. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 12:53, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point, but please note the same is true about 1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners. We have one full section even (lengthier that Hafte Tir bombing) dedicated to it in the article, yet the topic has a separate Wikipedia page. I think, in here we are discussing ways to fine-tune the article with little change due to the contentious nature of this topic. That said, you are more than welcome to open a new discussion for trimming all sections that have a separate Wiki article.--Kazemita1 (talk) 14:41, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Kazemita1 put back into the article that "According to Michael Axworthy, the attack "fitted with Masud Rajavi's earlier declaration of armed resistance". Adding such observations of an author gives the false impression that there is some kind of evidence that the MEK carried out this attack, but there isn't any evidence. The sources only say that the MEK is accused of this bombing, and that the MEK denied the charges. That is all that we should have in this section, and should be restored to the long standing version for that reason. Ypatch (talk) 17:30, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Restoring to long-standing version of the article based on my substantiated objection (just before this message) that has been there for about 10 days. Ypatch (talk) 21:54, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Excessive information about a book

This one is rather minor, but I figured in the interest of trimming the article, I open the discussion for it. In this section of the article the details of a tragedy is explained. However, when describing Maryam Rajavi's book there is repetitive content. My sugestion is to change this sentence:

In 2019, Maryam Rajavi, released a book named "Crime Against Humanity". The book is about the 1988 massacres of political prisoners in Iran, and explains that about 30,000 people were executed, with the majority being MEK members.[164]

to the following

In 2019, Maryam Rajavi, released a book named "Crime Against Humanity" on this topice.[164]

This is in light of the fact that the exact number of people killed is already mentioned a few lines above.

As Human rights organizations estimates, The number of those executed remains a point of contention, with the numbers ranging between 1,400 and 30,000 including women and children.[161]

--Kazemita1 (talk) 07:56, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's fair enough, we don't need to repeat the toll more than necessary. Your suggestion describes the book in a good manner. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:42, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is really essential to prevent inserting duplicated material. Why should we get the reader bored in this way?Saff V. (talk) 07:18, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That sentence is about Rajavi's book. What Rajavi's book is about doesn't seem to be duplicated anywhere else in the article, right? If you want to start cleaning up POV, how about the Fund Raising section, which is made up of 4 subsections which, considering the length of the article, really should not be. Or Human rights record and Allegations of sexual abuse, which are the same thing, right? Or Ideological revolution and women's rights which has a lot of excruciating details about a marriage? How about starting with those? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 16:15, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Since Stefka Bulgaria has drawn attention to that section; it is critically important that the "ideology" section only contain material the relevance of which has been established by reliable sources. In other words, sources need to have stated clearly that the details of that marriage are relevant to the "Ideological revolution and women's rights" theme in the MEK's ideology. Otherwise, the content more likely belongs in the biographies of the individuals mentioned. Whether this is the case, I leave for all of you to determine. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:09, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ervand Abrahamian discusses the marriage in the ideological revolution section of his book. And editors from both sides of the isle have relied on this academic book.Kazemita1 (talk) 21:31, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Everybody can see that each word of the ideological revolution section is the result of discussion under the control of Admin. It is better not to mix topics with each other! The disputed sentence "The book is about the 1988 massacres of political prisoners in Iran, and explains that about 30,000 people were executed, with the majority being MEK members" is same as "As Human rights organizations estimates, The number of those executed remains a point of contention, with the numbers ranging between 1,400 and 30,000 ..." obviously!Saff V. (talk) 07:00, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody's saying we shouldn't use the Abrahamian book, the argument is whether so much excruciating detail is needed (as in the other sections I mentioned). For Rajavi's book, mentioning what the book says doesn't seem excessive to me, but if editors are suggesting it needs to be removed, then the same criteria should apply to other sections, like the Women's Rights and Ideological Revolution where there is indeed excessive detailing. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 13:00, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think no one is asking for removal of the sentence on the rajavi's book. Rather, the sentence is just repeating the toll which should be modified so that the WP:UNDUE issue is resolved. We don't need two sentences almost the same thing. We can write that the book is on the executions without adding unnecessary details. @Vanamonde93: You can find in archive the discussions regarding the relationships between that marriage and the ideological revolution. --Mhhossein ^talk 13:43, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Kazemita1 asked for the removal of the sentence on Rajavi's book (one sentence is about what Rajavi's book is about, the other is about what other sources speculate the death tolls are). In fact, Kazemita1 seems to have removed that information, along with making several other reverts that are currently discussed here without any given consensus. Is anyone going to do anything about that? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 14:48, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No one dares edit this article at the moment, we just get banned at the whim of a random passing admin. Not worth it. EmilCioran1195 (talk) 11:26, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The irony is that I just blocked this user for 2 weeks for an ARBPIA violation, so they are unable to respond to the following: on the mainspace, if one does not revert, there is literally zero chances of facing sanctions. El_C 00:18, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how this information is "excessive", particularly when we have allowed so much about who Massoud Rajavi married and didn't marry in an article about the MEK! This description explains what the book is about, something that doesn't seem to be repeated anywhere else in the article (the quotes Kazemita provided are about what statistics assume death tolls are, not what Rajavi says death tolls are. So it does not qualify as "excessive information". Ypatch (talk) 22:00, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's quite simple, we should not report the toll twice, though we can cite multiple reliable sources for a death toll. --Mhhossein ^talk 21:49, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

One source is from Amnesty International saying that "The number of those executed remains a point of contention, with the numbers ranging between 1,400 and 30,000 including women and children." This describes that the death tolls estimates remain a "point of contention" that includes "women and children".

The other source says "The book is about the 1988 massacres of political prisoners in Iran, and explains that about 30,000 people were executed, with the majority being MEK members". This describes Rajavi's account of the death tolls, the "the majority being MEK members".

This is why this information is not repeated. One is an estimate from Amnesty, the other is an explanation of what Maryam Rajavi's book is about (someone who was directly involved in this ordeal). If you still think this information is repeated, I will compromise by merging these two sources together. Ypatch (talk) 20:35, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't fully agree that the death toll estimates by Amnesty are the same as what Maryam Rajavi's book is about, but whatever, moving on. On this premise of removing repeated information from the article, I've ordered the allegations made against the MEK about nuclear scientists, and removed any information repeating what the NBC source was saying. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 07:49, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your removal of MEK's involvement in assassination of Iranian nuclear scientist was a clear violation of the article restrictions and had nothing to do with the self-made "premise of removing repeated information from the article". --Mhhossein ^talk 21:31, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Repeated information about nuclear scientists

I found this (the later part of this sentence about nuclear scientists) to be repeated information about the allegations made against the MEK regarding Iranian nuclear scientists, which is something that's already covered in the article:

• "According to Ariane M. Tabatabai, the MEK's "capabilities to conduct terrorist attacks may have decreased in recent years", although it is "suspected of having carried out attacks against Iranian nuclear scientists, with alleged support from Israel."[393]

I propose removing (the part about nuclear scientists at least) based on that it's repeated information. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 07:55, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's been well over a week and nobody has replied to this, so removing (per WP:SILENCE) the part that says "although it is "suspected of having carried out attacks against Iranian nuclear scientists, with alleged support from Israel" since that is already in the article in the "Iran's nuclear programme" section:

• "In 2012, NBC News' Richard Engel and Robert Windrem published a report quoting U.S. officials, who spoke to NBC News on condition of anonymity, that the MEK was being financed, trained, and armed by Israel's secret service to assassinate Iranian nuclear scientists.[208][209][210] Former CIA case officer in the Middle East, Robert Baer argued that MEK agents motivated by Israel were the only plausible perpetrators for such assassinations.[211][208] Also a State Department spokesman reported that "Washington did not claim the exile group was involved in the assassination of scientists in Iran."[212]

• "On 9 February 2012, Iran senior officer Mohammad-Javad Larijani alleged to NBC news that “MOSSAD and the MEK were jointly responsible for the targeted killing of Iranian scientists,” although the claim has never been backed up with evidence."[382]

Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 15:26, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Saff V.: You removed the following from the article saying it's "duplicate material:

• "Haaretz published that the allegations by Mohammad Java Larijani (senior aide to Iran's supreme leader) concerning the MEK and the Iran nuclear scientists were unsubstantiated, and that "though never backed up with evidence, this sensational accusation was frequently repeated to justify the group's terror designation in the lead-up to the delisting."^[1] Also a State Department spokesman reported that "Washington did not claim the exile group was involved in the assassination of scientists in Iran."^[2]"

Can you please point out where this duplicated? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 10:34, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think that 9 months it's too long. I think it should be 6 months for discussions that haven't reached consensus, and 12 for any that have. Also just noticed Mhhossein reverting this disputed edit without actually providing an objection. @El C: I thought we were not allowed to revert without providing a substantiated objection? (some editors here, including myself, have been blocked for that in the past). Ypatch (talk) 21:26, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're in the wrong section. Anyway, that revert is based on an explanation provided in October — though I, for one, don't remember what it was. El_C 21:32, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Excessive information a marriage/divorce

In light that Kazemita1 (with Mhhossein's support) has removed from the mainspace "The book is about the 1988 massacres of political prisoners in Iran, and explains that about 30,000 people were executed, with the majority being MEK members." on the basis that this is "excessive information", then we should treat other problematic sections under the same criteria, starting with the section "Ideological revolution and women's rights".

I propose that the following paragraph:

"On 27 January 1985, Rajavi appointed Maryam Azodanlu as his co-equal leader. The announcement, stated that this would give women equal say within the organization and thereby 'would launch a great ideological revolution within Mojahedin, the Iranian public and the whole Muslim World'. The MEK is "known for its female-led military units".[6] Five weeks later, the MEK announced that its Politburo and Central Committee had asked Rajavi and Azondalu, who was already married, to marry one another to deepen and pave the way for the "ideological revolution. At the time Maryam Azodanlu was known as only the younger sister of a veteran member, and the wife of Mehdi Abrishamchi. According to the announcement, Maryam Azodanlu and Mehdi Abrishamchi had recently divorced in order to facilitate this 'great revolution'. As a result, the marriage further isolated the Mojahedin and also upset some members of the organization. This was mainly because, the middle class would look at this marriage as an indecent act which to them resembled wife-swapping. (especially when Abrishamchi declared his own marriage to Musa Khiabani's younger sister). The fact that it involved women with young children and the wives of close friends was considered a taboo in traditional Iranian culture. The effect of this incident on secularists and modern intelligentsia was equally outrageous as it dragged a private matter into the public arena. Many criticized Maryam Azodanlu's giving up her own maiden name (something most Iranian women did not do and she herself had not done in her previous marriage). They would question whether this was in line with her claims of being a staunch feminist.[263]"

Be resumed into the following:

""On January 27, 1985, Rajavi announced he had appointed Maryam Azodanlu to be his "co-equal leader" with the intent that this action would give women an equal voice within the MEK. Five weeks later, the MEK announced that its Politburo and Central Committee had asked Rajavi and Azondalu, who was already married, to marry one another to deepen the "ideological revolution. The announcement, stated that this would give women equal say within the organization and thereby 'would launch a great ideological revolution within Mojahedin, the Iranian public and the whole Muslim World'. The MEK is "known for its female-led military units".[6]

My reasoning for reducing this is because there is nothing in the removed sentences that tells us more about the MEK's "Ideological revolution and women's rights" (which is what this section is about). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 11:15, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. There is an attempt to summarise some parts of this article while other parts have been inflated. This is one of the parts that is inflated, and it can be summarised while retaining the main occurrences. Ypatch (talk) 17:32, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How many times do we have to discuss this topic and all its aspects? Isn't 4 months enough? For instance, summarizing this paragraph is inappropriate because, according to the Admin's comment, some issues become vague and incomprehensible.Saff V. (talk) 07:14, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I feel like being GAMEd by Stefka Bulgaria. He is making a false comparison between the removal of excessive mention of death tolls and what he finds to be "excessive information a marriage/divorce". The current wording of the article, i.e. "In 2019, Maryam Rajavi, released a book named "Crime Against Humanity" on this topic," is sufficiently describing the Rjavi's book with no excessive details on the toll. Can you stop mixing irrelevant things please? If you have objections with what we discussed some months ago, you need to have fair reasoning on why, for instance, Rajavi and Abrishamchi's divorce should not be here (this divorce needs to be mentioned since it is describing what steps were taken for the ideological revolution.) Also, the impact of the divorce-marriage and its reception by others have to be mentioned, too. We discussed all of these things earlier and you can find them in archive. --Mhhossein ^talk 09:36, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhossein, you may have missed Vanamonde's suggestion that "sources need to have stated clearly that the details of that marriage are relevant to the "Ideological revolution and women's rights" theme in the MEK's ideology. Otherwise, the content more likely belongs in the biographies of the individuals mentioned". I have presented my case why this needs trimming, and I have also presented a proposed text. I ask that, in the spirit of collaboration, you or Saff V. do the same. Thank you. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:55, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Stefka Bulgaria and you are going to show how sources stated that the details of that marriage are relevant to the "Ideological revolution and women's rights" theme in the MEK's ideology by SUMMARIZING the paragraph! Aren't you? During that disscussion we brought sources which they explain the relationship between that material and that divorce and marriage cleary, even you suggested text we discussed it. Maybe user:Vanamonde93 is not aware of that discussion but User:El C can give comment.Saff V. (talk) 11:27, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to be optimistic and AGF. However, the more I look the more I think something is going wrong with Stefka Bulgaria's suggestions. Looking at Talk:People's Mujahedin of Iran/Archive 17#Ideological revolution and women's rights, which contains the details of our discussion where Stefka Bulgaria was involved, it appears he is again making the previous mistakes. For instance, I already asked him why he was suggesting to remove the portion on divorce, but he failed to respond to my query. This concern was also mentioned by User:El C when he said "No mention of "divorce" (really? "already married"?) and Abrahamian's exposition on how this was viewed in Iranian society is absent". In that discussion, Stefka Bulgaria was warned against by El C against Gaming the system and being tendentious. He was also told that "stripping the content bare to the point that it is no longer recognizable as such" is different from being "concise". Other users were also making objection against his suggestion, and Stefka Bulgrai is here again asking almost the same thing! What's it if it is not an attempt at gaming the system? Comments by @El C: is welcomed. --Mhhossein ^talk 15:07, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ordinarily, I would say that my preference is for an RfC that is properly closed so that consensus is codified in the closure. But here, I am, indeed, experiencing déjà vu — which is not good. Anyway, objections to the proposed changes (or ones similar enough — feel free to correct me) were already substantiated at length before, were they not? If that is indeed so, then participants are not, in fact, obliged to entertain these again after only a scant few months (thereby sparing everyone the repetition). Consensus here will not be arrived at by filibuster, just like it will not be arrived at by edit warring. Please try to be mindful of past discussions. For example, phrase your proposal with a preamble like so: past discussion regarding this issue has reached a stalemate. Unlike the rejected proposal that contended that X, I am proposing that we implement changes that would result in Y. But coming across as saying: I propose that we do X changes (again) — that is a problem that, if repeated, can be viewed as tendentious editing, which may result in sanctions. I'm not sure to what extent this is the case this time, but that is something to be mindful of. Again, exhausting opposing participants through filibuster and repetition isn't the way to compromise. Please ensure that one clearly explains what is new with whatever given proposal, so that we aren't going around in circles. El_C 17:54, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

El_C I pointed out how Saff V., Mhhossein, and Kazemita1 have advocated for the removal of certain information saying that the information is "excessive". I then proposed that we use the same criteria for other sections where the information also seems "excessive", which (unless I misunderstood) was supported by Vanamonde93 who wrote "sources need to have stated clearly that the details of that marriage are relevant to the "Ideological revolution and women's rights" theme in the MEK's ideology. Otherwise, the content more likely belongs in the biographies of the individuals mentioned." If we have recently determined that we are cleaning the article of "excessive" information, then I would assume that revisiting a previous discussion based on the recent editing aims should be ok, but I am to assume that it's not? (and we are never to discuss this section again?). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 13:38, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We can't have the same months-long discussion every four months — it's unpractical. Your proposals better have some new components, or you are, at best, just wasting the time of participants, and at worst, waging warfare through attrition. El_C 23:55, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Stefka Bulgaria I would say your proposal warranted admin action since it was almost the same. That you are equaling removal of almost identical mention of death toll to the removal of well-sourced contents is itself meaningful. --Mhhossein ^talk 19:02, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the impracticability of reviving a discussion that took place 4 months ago, but I do find that there are genuine inaccuracies here. For instance, this is what Abrahamian wrote:

• "In the eyes of traditionalists, particularly among the bazaar middle class, the whole incident was indecent."... It smacked of wife-swapping, especially when Abrishamchi announced his own marriage to Khiabani’s younger sister"

And this is what's currently in the article:

• " This was mainly because, the middle class would look at this marriage as an indecent act which to them resembled wife-swapping."

This is taking the observations of some "traditionalists" and what Abrahamian thought the incident smacked of, and making it read as something objective that happened amongst the whole of the Iranian middle class (which is not supported by the source, and isn't supported by other sources either). @El C: if you don't find that to be an issue, then I'll just let this go. Thanks for weighing in. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 15:23, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure there's room for some further refinement (i.e. traditionalists). That's usually the case in any collaborative writing, anyway. But Abrahamian speaks with authority nonetheless (which is to say, authoritatively), so the crux of it seems faithful enough to the source material. Certainly, nothing requiring wholesale removal. Anyway, one could always add the pertinent excerpt from Abrahamian in an explanatory note, too, in case it is felt that the original prose's meaning had become either too diluted or too potent, or just plain inaccurate. Something worth exploring, in any case, sure. El_C 16:56, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This comment by Stefka Bulgaria is attempting to justify a clear wrongdoing; Depsite what Stefka Bulgarai says, he should have "revive"d the old discussion and probably added some more new comments. Also, I am seeing again that Stefka Bulgaria aims to persistently ping El_C for every single thing happening here. Just see "if you don't find that to be an issue, then I'll just let this go"!!! I don't think that this would lead to betterment of the article, rather it makes the admin become too involved (Stefka Bulgaria has already benefited from this situation when he narrowly escaped from sanctions some months ago). As for the recent issue, on the "traditionalists'" idea", it does not explain the mass removal of contents. It can be resolved via discussion. --Mhhossein ^talk 10:08, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mhhossein, I would ask that you focus on the article's content rather than the mudslinging you presented in your last comment here. Moving on, if you agree that specifying "traditionalists" is appropriate, then, unless anyone else has a problem with that word, I'll clarify that in the article. It's a good start to compromising some of that section which to me reads like POV pushing. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 12:34, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Would you please use a more polite language? What you described as "mudslinging" was in fact an attempt at protecting the article's content. Anyway, how are you going to include the "traditionalists"? --Mhhossein ^talk 06:44, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Mudslinging" is not an impolite language. Moving on, I think the best solution here is to just quote Abrahamian directly. This will help represent properly his view points on the matter. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:20, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's been a week since anyone replied to my proposition to quote Abrahamian directly, so I'll quote Abrahamian directly based on WP:SILENCE. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:50, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Excessive information about "Fundraising"

In the quest for cleaning up unnecessary long sections in the article, the section Fund raising is currently made up of 4 subsections that describe MEK fundraising in 4 different countries. That seems needlessly excessive. I propose we merge the 4 subsections into a single section describing the main, verified by reliable sources, and relevant points. Much of it is based on claims by Nejat Society, which seems more propaganda-oriented that factual evidence. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 10:12, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Which point is solely claimed by Nejat? --Mhhossein ^talk 10:09, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"According to the Netjang Society, in 1988, the Nuremberg MEK front organization was uncovered by police." Anyone have a problem with removing this? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 12:36, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is well attributed claim and there's no issue with regard to reliability. Do you find Nejat incapable to have such a claim? --Mhhossein ^talk 06:37, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Netjang Society is not a reliable source; and we need reliable sources to verify claims. This is the reason it needs to be removed. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:21, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On December 28 I proposed to clean up the "Fundraising" section. This involves merging unnecessary subsections and removing anything not backed by RSs. As of yet, the only response came from Mhhossein who questioned Netjang Society as a valid source; a website that apparently is fully dedicated to spreading propaganda against the MEK. I'll wait for Mhhossein's response to how Netjang Society is a valid source for these claims while I merge the sections and remove anything that isn't backed by RSs. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 10:03, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Netjang, as a significant NGO opposing MEK, is certainly reliable for its claims. --Mhhossein ^talk 14:38, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Promoting Nejat as a "reliable" and "significant NGO" is concerning. Why don't we start using other advocacy website such as Iran probe as RSs too? Because that's what they are, advocacy websites and far from being peer-reviewed RSs. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:27, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop making further personal attacks by attributing "promotion" of something to me. The society has been a source of info for multiple books ([27], [28] and [29] for instance). --Mhhossein ^talk 21:47, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Moving on... so has the NCRI been a source of info for multiple books; does that mean we should include their advocacy here? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 07:58, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Are you serious? They are already included. --Mhhossein ^talk 21:23, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think a better question here would be whether Nejat Society's accusations against the MEK are WP:DUE. Are there any other reliable sources supporting these accusations? (a single Iran Government affiliated website seems WP:UNDUE for this). Ypatch (talk) 20:27, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why would it be UNDUE? --Mhhossein ^talk 19:19, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Because we don't have more sources that mention the same accusations. It's just one organization making these accusations and their primary purpose appears to be to publish posts against the MEK. Ypatch (talk) 00:50, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We don't have? Are you sure? So what's this? --Mhhossein ^talk 15:30, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Stefka Bulgaria: Why did you do this edit? --Mhhossein ^talk 15:38, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This quotes Nejat Society. Ypatch (talk) 18:22, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to remove the attribution unless one can say how "author's conversations at the Nejat society" can be re-written as "according to the Nejat Society"? The author have reached that conclusion after discussing the issues with the former members of MEK at the Nejat society. Talking to the members of the MEK had been a part of the author's scholarly work. So, we are not allowed to interpret the author's intention in other ways. --Mhhossein ^talk 21:09, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The source is not the author, it's Nejat society ("author's conversations at the Nejat society"). So you cannot attribute the author, but needs to be attributed to Nejat society because that is the source of the information. But that's like collecting information directly from the Islamic regime about MEK. It may be valid for the Islamic regime's POV, but that's it. Ypatch (talk) 20:31, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody has replied to this in a month. Reading through www.nejatngo.org/en/, this an organization affiliated with the Iranian government against the MEK. I think it should be removed per WP:UNDUE and WP:NEUTRAL problems, or if Mhhossein insists on keeping it, then moved to "Islamic Republic of Iran allegations against the MEK". If nobody replies, I'll proceed with removing this. Ypatch (talk) 18:04, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I already gave you the response: "The author have reached that conclusion after discussing the issues with the former members of MEK at the Nejat society. Talking to the members of the MEK had been a part of the author's scholarly work. So, we are not allowed to interpret the author's intention in other ways". --Mhhossein ^talk 06:01, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mhhossein: what conclusion has the author reached? that Nejat Society made these statements about the MEK? That is pretty obvious, but not the point. The point is that Nejat Society is the one making these statements against the MEK, not the author! So it is quite deceiving to leave it in the article as it is since, like I already said, "Reading through www.nejatngo.org/en/, this an organization affiliated with the Iranian government against the MEK. I think it should be removed per WP:UNDUE and WP:NEUTRAL problems" Please address the problem that is being discussed here. Ypatch (talk) 00:22, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the author made the interviews with MEK members then he made a conclusion. So, we should not misinterpret "author's conversations at the Nejat society" as "according to the Nejat Society". The latter means the author is merely conveying something while the former means the author has published the analysis of his interviews with the members. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:41, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What "conclusions" are you talking about? That former members of MEK said that the MEK ran false charities? The author is only reporting on what he was told by Nejat Society, he is not making any conclusions. Ypatch (talk) 16:08, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, this is not simply reporting the MEK members' narration. Anyway, the materials are published in a secondary reliable source and we are not going to dig it deeper. Stop mis-using WP:UNDUE. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:35, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What else then is the author reporting on here besides MEK members' narration? Don't forget that verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. Ypatch (talk) 16:07, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

His own understanding of the points he got by talking to the MEK members. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:55, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mhhossein, please quote what "his own understanding of the points" are. Ypatch (talk) 16:52, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Human Rights Record" and "Allegations of sexual abuse" sections

I propose merging Allegations of sexual abuse within the Human rights record section as it forms part of the same subject ("allegations of sexual abuse" is basically "human rights record", so two different titles are not needed here). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 16:24, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Among other humanitarian issues of MEK camps, sexual abuse is highlighted by multiple reliable sources. In general, "sexual abuse" is thought to be a sever human rights violation. --Mhhossein ^talk 10:19, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Saying that "In general, "sexual abuse" is thought to be a sever human rights violation." is WP:OR. "Allegations of sexual abuse" is indeed a "Human rights violation". We don't need a section for each type of alleged "Human rights violation" in the article, we can just include the bulk of it in a single section. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 12:39, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I afraid, that way we will ignore the RSs' stress on the "sexual abuse" by MEK. A whole documentary was dedicated to that, among other things. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:36, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These are allegations by defectors, so it's misleading to say that there is a "a stress on sexual abuse by RSs". These allegations form part of Human Rights abuses; and a reason hasn't been provided as to why they merit their own separate section. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:44, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As RSes on the treatment of MEK with its members support, In general, "sexual abuse" is thought to be a sever human rights violation, for instance, Rand devoted a separate section to it, see page 71, or BBC published an article just about sexual abuse of MEK. In addition, during an interview with ex-member of MEK, they mostly emphasized on the sexual harassment in MEK's camp, see Soltani, Moeini and Hedayati and Heyrani's description.Saff V. (talk) 11:06, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I repeat since you're not addressing the point I'm making: these are allegations by defectors, not confirmed events, and they are indeed part of what constitutes "Human Rights abuses". Creating a separate section for this emphasises a POV in trying to magnify a particular event that already forms part of a section in the article. See POV Fork. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:37, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, this is how the sources are treating the issue and we don't care why the topic had been of the interest to the sources. It could be because sources were themselves interested in them or other things. Take a look at Rand, for instance.--Mhhossein ^talk 21:38, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mhhossein: what is it exactly that you'd like me to look for in the Rand report, for instance? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:00, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dedication of a separate section to the MEK's sexual misconduct against its members. --Mhhossein ^talk 21:22, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mhhossein: can you put the exact quotes you're referring to here? I've read through the source but did not find what you're referring to. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:54, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We are not searching for a single phrase. We are talking about a whole section dedicated to the MEK's sexual abuse. Ctrl+f "Sexual Control". --Mhhossein ^talk 19:15, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The "Sexual Control" section in that source comprises of a single paragraph about divorce/celibacy. How does that justify having a section in the mainspace titled "Allegations of sexual abuse"? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 15:13, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Since the source mentioned above has dedicated a whole section to the MEK's sexual abuse. Needless to mention that there are plenty of sources dedicating a significant amount of their content to this topic. MEK's sexual misconduct has been of the key characteristics indicating the cultish nature of the group. --Mhhossein ^talk 08:33, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mhossein, saying that "the source mentioned above has dedicated a whole section to the MEK's sexual abuse" is not actually true. The article talks about "compulsory divorce" and "required to be celibate". Not once does that section mention the term "Sexual abuse", so using that can't be used as basis for having a section with the name "Allegations of sexual abuse". Please provide reliable sources that use the term "sexual abuse" in relation to the MEK. Ypatch (talk) 22:50, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

They have indeed used the title and the content following is not unrelated to the sexual abuse by MEK. Also, see my comments once again. That source is just an example. --Mhhossein ^talk 15:11, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhossein, where in that example does it say "sexual abuse"? You need to provide exact sources and quotes, which you haven't yet. Ypatch (talk) 18:15, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: Another talk page discussion where people have stopped participating. Does WP:SILENCE apply? or what is the procedure that should be followed when users stop answering? Ypatch (talk) 17:42, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't see any credible evidence being presented of sources giving a lot of weight to content about sexual abuse my the MEK. Certainly the RAND source above does not do this. To be clear, I have not looked for such sources myself, but have evualated the sources presented here, as part of determining whether participants in this argument are engaging in substantive argumentation or stonewalling. Furthermore, there has indeed been no substantive response here for a while, so there is a clear argument to apply WP:SILENCE. If any changes are reverted, the revert will need to be backed up by substantive argument, not claims about "long-standing content". Vanamonde (Talk) 20:53, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone ahead and merged these two sections based on the points raised ("Sexual abuse" is a "Human rights violation") as well as per WP:SILENCE (a substantive argument or source detailing that this article merits a heading of "sexual abuse" has not been given). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 07:54, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: Thank you for closing this RfC. Based on your closing remarks, would the following be an accurate compromise of sources? (as you've pointed out, "personality cult" seems more in line with sources than "resembling a cult"): "Critics have described the group as having a personality cult .[10][24][18][7]".

Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 18:13, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's a compromise you could offer, sure, but that has slightly different meaning than Option C above, so that would require fresh discussion and, if there's no consensus in said discussion, a fresh RfC. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:38, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Vanamonde: I am wondering which option included the narrative of "MEK is a cult"? Look at the article before the RFC closure, no where in the article they are called a Cult as factual statement, a point you have probably missed. Also, You said nothing regarding why the scholarly works should be considered the core part of our discussion? Are those authors critics of MEK? Who knows?--Mhhossein ^talk 06:05, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Mhhossein, you are doing precisely what I asked you not to, and relitigating the RfC by presenting arguments to me that you should have presented to the other editors. I read all the arguments. Yours did not gain consensus, because you focused on the existence of specific sources supporting your preferred version, and not the prevalence of that version of the narrative among the scholarly literature as a whole. Vanamonde (Talk) 06:26, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde: "All discussion closures are subject to review". Your closure comment pretends that there had been a dispute over calling MEK a cult as a factual statement, which is totally wrong (none of the options contained this or lack thereof). I raised the argument multiple times in this RFC. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:53, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Really Mhhossein? In this other TP discussion aren't you arguing that the "MEK's designation as a cult is of the most significant aspects of the group's history"? (something that isn't backed by a single RS). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:16, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's a patently absurd reading of my closure, Mhhossein, but if you want to have someone review my closure, I'm sure El C would be willing to give his opinion: if not, WP:AN is the place to go. If you do post to AN, I suspect all that you will achieve is a rap on the knuckles, but you always have that option. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:15, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have read Vanamonde93's close, which I found no fault in, procedurally or otherwise. To challenge the close, however, please follow the steps outlined in WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. El_C 17:19, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

However, I need the respond to this query; Vanamonde93's comment reads as such: "...it's fairly clear that the "critics describe it as a cult" narrative is far more prevalent among RS than the "MEK is a cult" narrative"." Where was the so-called "MEK is a cult" narrative"? Which of the options contained such a narrative? I think the question is clear enough. By the way, "a rap on the knuckles" is not the suitable language an admin is expected to have. --Mhhossein ^talk 18:29, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have not, at any point, stated that the article contained an "MEK is a cult" narrative, nor have I stated that the RfC was recommending such. I made a point about what the sources presented here were saying. If you're not able to see that distinction, I am concerned as to whether you can maintain the perspective necessary to edit this article neutrally. That is the last I will say about this closure, unless you choose to bring it up an WP:AN. A "rap on the knuckles" is idiomatic English for criticism without formal punishment [36]; even if you were unaware of that, arguing that it represents unacceptable behavior for an admin is quite surprising. The place to raise such behavior would, again, be WP:AN. Vanamonde (Talk) 22:05, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The "MEK is a cult" narrative was not questioned here, rather the groups making the cult description was the question point. So, the true comparison would be between whether mainly critics are describing them as a cult or the description is also done by other groups such as scholars. Mentioning in closure something which was not even a matter of dispute, specially when the closer is "only assessing the arguments and the source material presented here" (which did not include a "MEK is a cult" narrative ), was what raised the question for me. Another point, after reviewing the closure comment once more, it has zero mention of scholarly works being compared to non-academic sources such as the news outlets (which I think would be a determining point specially when one is considering WP:DUE as the most applicable policy). Probably this is not that noteworthy. Anyway, the RFC is closed in favor of showing in the lead solely critics are describing them as a cult, a statement which I think is not in accordance to reliable sources I provided. That's an RFC! --Mhhossein ^talk 14:11, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted this edit by Mhhossein because the section "Other names" aims to indicate other names that the group commonly known by ("People’s Jihadists" is not one of them). Since we're on this topic, and though this is brought up in a previous TP discussion, in the section Other names there is also the name "The Cult of Rajavi or Rajavi Cult", which is also WP:UNDUE (there seem to be only two sources referring to the group with this derogatory name). Unless there is a substantiated reason to keep this, I propose removing it per WP:UNDUE. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 21:53, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cult of Rajavi and/or Rajavi Cult is an infamous name which was coined by NYT and is now widely used by sources referring to MEK. Others have also referred this name. For instance, "Another form of corrupted Sufism and Jihad in Islam is the cult of Rajavi."[37]. --Mhhossein ^talk 22:11, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhossein, please provide sources to substantiate your claim (two sources are not enough to refer to a political group with any derogatory name). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 22:34, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The pov of NYT is not a good example of undue weight.Saff V. (talk) 07:52, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Again, 1 or 2 sources are not enough to determine the MEK had the alternative name "Rajavi Cult". That is why this name is WP:UNDUE. You need more sources to establish that "Rajavi Cult" is another name the MEK goes by. Please provide them. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:53, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do you consider the POV of NYT as a minority views? This article of NYT is so significant, it has been used as a reference in other RSes (like Taylor & Francis which publishes books and academic journals, Greenwood Publishing Group, part of ABC-CLIO, University of Colorado). In addition sources including 1, 2 and 3 support it.Saff V. (talk) 07:59, 18 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Saff V.: I don't know if you're trying to confuse me by re-using the same sources quoted in other publications, or if this is a WP:COMPETENCE problem. To resume, these are the only available RSs that have called the MEK a "Rajavi Cult":

• A 2003 article by Elizabeth Rubin
• Article by mcclatchydc.com (which I'm not even sure constitutes WP:RS)

Either list more RSs that (independently) refer to the MEK with this derogatory name, or that derogatory name will be removed from the article. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:47, 18 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not trying to confuse you, I am going to say that you might misunderstand what wp:undue demands! The NYT source gives proper weight to the material and it wouldn't be the views of tiny minorities.Saff V. (talk) 11:13, 18 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's you, Saff, who doesn't quite understand WP:UNDUE, which says that "To give undue weight to the view of a significant minority, or to include that of a tiny minority, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject." Ypatch (talk) 00:00, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, WP:UNDUE is being misused here. We're not going to act based on the Stefka Bulgaria's self-made criterion here. The term is wide spreadly used in other reliable sources, as shown by Saff V. Moreover, "Rajavi Cult" (Persian: "فرقه رجوی") is indeed one of the terms alternatively used when referring to MEK in Persian language media. Your attempt to remove this name is highly questionable. Paul Sheldon Foote, a California State University professor, has also used the term. Likewise, the name is used by Juan Cole. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:39, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

None of those two sources are WP:RS. If that's all you have been able to come up with, then using this disrespectful name is certainly WP:UNDUE. Ypatch (talk) 16:26, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Repeatedly using UNDUE and downgrading those authors as being non reliable has apparently no cost here. Come with a reason please and review my comment again. --Mhhossein ^talk 17:22, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Another one. --Mhhossein ^talk 13:30, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Those sources don't look like they meet WP:RS, so I'm removing them. If you disagree, you can ask at WP:RSN for others to comment. Thank you. Ypatch (talk) 20:52, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is not how things work. I am going to restore if you can not elaborate in what terms the sources are not reliable. Merely saying 'the sources are not reliable' is not a license for such a wholesale removal. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:27, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Neither of you has in any way discussed what makes these sources reliable or not. Further edit-warring over this, especially in the absence of any substantive discussion, will be met with sanctions. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:04, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These new sources that Mhhossein added do not appear to be WP:RS, which is needed specially for adding this sort of name-calling. The first clue that these sources are not reliable is in their titles, but also Middleeasteye.net, Opednews.com, and juancole.com are not suitable sources to support that the MEK is often referred to "The Cult of Rajavi". Someone with Mhhossein's editing experience should know this. The 2003 Rubin piece seems to be the closest thing to a reliable source that describes the MEK as "The Cult of Rajavi", which would make this name-calling WP:UNDUE because it has been cited by the minority sources. That is my substantiation for removing "Cult of Rajavi" from the article. What's Mhhossein's reasoning for keeping it? Ypatch (talk) 22:29, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Don't appear to be reliable source is not a proper justification. You have judged the sources based on the titles, which is pretty much wrong and inaccurate, and I know with my experience what a reliable source constitutes. Middle East Eye is a credible news organization benefiting from the contribution of Jamal Khashoggi, Moncef Marzouki, Alistair Burt, Daniel Kawczynski among others. That's weird to see the source is questioned in terms of its reliability. Also, Juan Cole, Richard P. Mitchell Collegiate Professor of History at the University of Michigan, is an American academic and commentator on the modern Middle East. You can see his previous views regarding Iran. I would not simply discredit his works just for nothing! That's why the sources are reliable. --Mhhossein ^talk 05:41, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a quick analysis of the sources that Mhhossein is saying are enough to support the claim that the MEK is commonly referred to "The Cult of Rajavi or Rajavi Cult.":

• "The Cult of Rajavi" by Elizabeth Rubin. Ypatch described this in a previous TP discussion as "The Elizabeth Rubin piece comes across as a "damming article against the MEK", certainly a one-sided criticism of the group. Perhaps worth unraveling with other views elsewhere in the article, but in the lead section of the article it becomes WP:UNDUE POV." I agree with this assessment; may be ok for the body, but certainly not for "Other names".

• "How Iranian MEK went from US terror list to halls of Congress" by Middle East Eye which, according to RSN, it's a controversial source at best. The article, just like the Rubin article, is a "one-sided criticism of the group."
• "Trump Luminaries at Iranian Jihadi Cult Conference in Paris while Excluding Nice Iranians from Immigration" by Juancole.com. Really? Do I really need to explain why this shouldn't be in a controversial article?

These are the 3 sources Mhhossein is using to keep in the article that the MEK is commonly known as "The Cult of Rajavi or Rajavi Cult." I also agree with the assessment that someone with Mhhossein's editing experience should know better; yet, here we are. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 15:32, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Using Mhhossein's own words, "The first sentence in WP:UNDUE reads as such: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." The user who is trying to insert this material should explain how a paragraph should be dedicated to this 'minority view'?" Ypatch (talk) 00:29, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ypatch: Are you hounding me from page to page? Anyway, this is not a minority view. The term is frequently used in Persian-language media and multiple independent works use the same title for them. @ Stefka Bulgaria:

• Ypatch's comment is not the criteria for us here so please don't repeat that again. Calling a source "damming article against the MEK" sounds like WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Elizabeth Rubin's work came in a highly credible media and has been referred to by multiple other sources since then. No where in this discussion I can see the MEE source is being described as a "controversial source at best". User:E.M.Gregory, who is proven sock puppet said it was not reliable! Kingsindian said there was nothing wrong with that and Nishidani said there was no reason to exclude it.
• YES, you need to explain why Juan Cole, Richard P. Mitchell Collegiate Professor of History at the University of Michigan, who is an American academic and commentator on the modern Middle East, is not a reliable source here.

--Mhhossein ^talk 06:39, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhossein, if this is not a minority view, then provide substantial sources (you've been asked for this already).@Vanamonde93: Mhhossein has been asked to provide sources showing that the MEK's "other name" is "The Cult of Rajavi". He insists that the three he presented are enough. Is that the case? Ypatch (talk) 16:03, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Read my comment again and please don't mislead the admin by misquoting me. Note that "the term is frequently used in Persian-language media" and inside Iran they are widely referred to as "Rajavi Cult" (Persian: "فرقه رجوی"). I have provided three other independent sources using the term in a similar manner. Moreover, Rubin's usage of the term in NYT, has been mentioned in plenty of reliable sources. I can list them at your request. I recommend you to review WP:UNDUE once again. --Mhhossein ^talk 18:10, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: I realise my ping may be a hassle, BUT Mhhossein added to the article that the MEK's "Other name" is "Cult of Rajavi". Mhhossein based this on 3 sources (only 1 of which is WP:RS). Even if all 3 sources were WP:RS, that still would fall under WP:LABEL and WP:UNDUE. We already have one name calling by the Iranian regime about the MEK in the article ("Monafiqeen (Persian: منافقین‎, lit. 'the hypocrites')"), and Mhhossein is adding "Cult of Rajavi" as a legitimate "Other name" of the MEK. Do you see my concern? Ypatch (talk) 16:08, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think that would be inaccurate to say solely the "Iranian regime" is using the term. For instance this source say: "However, they have little support inside Iran, where they're seen as traitors for taking refuge in an enemy state and are often referred to as the cult of Rajavi, coined after the leaders of the movement, Mariam and Massoud Rajavi." This term is widely used in Persian-language media. --Mhhossein ^talk 18:53, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• This is fundamentally a content decision, and as such I'm not going to weigh in on it. An RfC is likely the way to go here. I will note in passing that there's a difference between how common a viewpoint needs to be to be included in the article with in-text attribution, and how common it needs to be to be included in Wikipedia's voice. Listing something as another name for the group is a use of Wikipedia's voice. A source that is good enough for the author's view to be included with attribution may not be enough for this sort of designation. I say may, because I haven't actually looked at the totality of the source material. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:58, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for responding. From your note, I will attribute to the author to what the author says. The majority of these sources that Mhhossein has provided quote this author, so it's good enough for the author's view point. Ypatch (talk) 16:03, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: Is there any consensus for this removal? I see the edit a part the user's destructive editing pattern. On what basis did the author downgraded the "content decision", for which a RFC was suggested, to this move? I prefer to seek your comment before anything else. --Mhhossein ^talk 17:39, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a removal; that's quoting the author and placing the quote in a relevant section. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 18:02, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Stefka Bulgaria is correct; that's not a removal, that's a reorganization, supported by this discussion, which I judge to be sufficient consensus for it unless and until someone provides more sourcing for the "Cult of Rajavi" designation. This discussion is sufficient not because of the numbers of editors on either side, but because of the number and quality of sources for that information (or rather, the lack thereof). Vanamonde (Talk) 18:18, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: I think an important part of my comments were ignored. "The cult of Rajavi" or "Rajavi cult" is largely used Iran, mainly in Persian language sources. This statement is supported by reliable sources saying: "However, they have little support inside Iran, where they're seen as traitors for taking refuge in an enemy state and are often referred to as the cult of Rajavi, coined after the leaders of the movement, Mariam and Massoud Rajavi." To further prove the point, I have listed just some of the sources using the title:

• Extreme right of Europe and Netanyahu's new mission to Rajavi Cult, by the Tehran Times.
• "Behaves like Rajavi Cult but claims to be open minded", a piece by Kayhan newspaper.
• "The fourth escape by the heads of Rajavi Cult", by Al-Alam.
• From Nifaq to the Rajavi Cult, a book published by Dideman publication.
• "A big impact to the Rajavi Cult", by Irdiplomacy.
• "Munafiqin and a big delusion called 'Alternative'/Why the Rajavi Cult has no popularity inside Iran?", by Shafaqna.
• "The eternal death of Rajavi Cult in Mersad operation", by IRDC.

As a middle ground suggestion, now that I have provided a substantiated objection, I think the title would better be restored to the its longstanding place with a note saying the title is mainly used inside Iran (or something like this). This should be included in accordance with WP:DUE. --Mhhossein ^talk 18:44, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not the one who needs to be persuaded about this. I will help trying to judge talk page consensus later, but I'm not opining on the specific question of due weight. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:24, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde: I know, but your previous judgement of consensus apparently did not consider my emphasize on the Persian language sources. That's why I have raised it again with more details. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:05, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We already have one derogatory name calling used by the clerics against the MEK on that section; we don't need more. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:26, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I did not see in the sources "clerics" saying something. One of the sources I provided says clearly "However, they have little support inside Iran, where they're seen as traitors for taking refuge in an enemy state and are often referred to as the cult of Rajavi..." They attacked and killed Iranian people and sided with their enemy Saddam. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:05, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: Could I have your feedback to my previous comment? --Mhhossein ^talk 06:10, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We've been over this. A couple of sources saying something doesn't mean that that's the common trend. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:30, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Don't bludgeon the process please. There's a common trend and I can provide more sources. However, I need to have the Vanamonde93's comment first. --Mhhossein ^talk 13:12, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just start an RfC; given that some sources exist, this is entirely a content dispute, and I am not opining. Vanamonde (Talk) 14:04, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde: This is my question exactly. It was a matter of content dispute from the beginning and you had said an RFC had to be started. However they performed the edit without any RFCs or like. Now, I am asking to act based on Wikipedia:Consensus required by restoring to the longstanding version given my substantiated objection and then start an RFC over the proposed change. A new consensus was determined without my sources being weighed here. --Mhhossein ^talk 04:50, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Longstanding text" and "per talk" are not magic words". You need sources to support your edits, and the majority of sources clearly do not support that "the cult of Rajavi" is a common name of this group. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 12:51, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I said an RfC had to be started if consensus couldn't be reached on the talk page. Then enough editors opined here that there was a consensus of sorts. Now there's a difference of opinion again, so an RfC is again necessary. So please start one, and stop worrying about which version of the text remains in place while the RfC occurs. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:02, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde: I am saying the previous alleged consensus DIDNOT consider the Persian language sources why I had raised before this. Also, by "enough editors" do you mean Stefka Bulgaria and Ypatch? How about me and Saff V. objecting the change? The fact that Stefka Bulgaria is persistently interrupting my communication with is itself signaling something! --Mhhossein ^talk 06:30, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhossein, I'm not "interrupting" you, I'm adding info that you're omitting (and this is a TP discussion, where editors should be welcomed to include their input, no?). As noted earlier in this TP, we already have one derogatory name calling in that section. Saying that "Cult of Rajavi (derogatory name often used by Iranian clerics to refer to the MEK) is one of the MEK's "common names" is not only WP:UNDUE and WP:POV, but also WP:LABEL and WP:WIKIVOICE. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 07:59, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mhhossein:, when I judged the existence of consensus in that conversation, you had not provided adequate evidence of reliable Persian language sources saying what you said they did. Please also remember that you would, by definition, need sources clearly independent of the Iranian government, while also being reliable, which isn't easy to find. For the last time, please start an RfC, and present your sources there, together with a substantive analysis of why they are reliable. Stefka Bulgaria, the number of contentious labels is irrelevant. All that matters is how much support they have in RS. Please do not make any more arguments about how many derogatory labels have been applied. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:12, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Should this sentence "According to The Daily Beast,a few months after the executions, relatives were handed plastic bags with their children's belongings" be included in the article?Saff V. (talk) 09:12, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

NO, Per WP:UNDUE, TDB isn't enough and more sources are needed.Saff V. (talk) 09:16, 19 February 2020 (UTC) No: The claim is not supported by other reliable sources so UNDUE would apply here. --Mhhossein ^talk 05:44, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes There is a vast amount of RSs confirming torture and executions of MEK members during the 1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners (see also 1988 execution of MEK prisoners) that's why WP:UNDUE does not apply here. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 15:38, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your comment is totally irrelevant. The RFC is asking for relatives being handed " plastic bags with their children's belongings" and your comment is not covering the RFC's requirement. --Mhhossein ^talk 19:36, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What's wrong with the source saying "relatives were handed plastic bags with their children's belongings" with regards to an incident for which we have plenty of RSs confirming numerous torture and execution tactics of children, women, and men? Is this really so extraordinary to believe considering all that took place during these executions (all of which we have plenty of RSs for)? "Relatives being handed plastic bags with their children's belongings" is not an extraordinary claim considering all that took place during the 1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners. Some editors here have been trying to remove details about these executions (see here, for example), and at the same time shoehorned every bit of criticism about a marriage/divorce into the article. That's damaging the article, not making it better. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:44, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is an extra ordinary claim for which a source far better than TDB is required. --Mhhossein ^talk 17:24, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• "Ayatollah Montazeri wrote to Ayatollah Khomeini saying "at least order to spare women who have children ... the execution of several thousand prisoners in a few days will not reflect positively and will not be mistake-free ... A large number of prisoners have been killed under torture by interrogators ... in some prisons of the Islamic Republic young girls are being raped ... As a result of unruly torture, many prisoners have become deaf or paralysed or afflicted with chronic decease."^[1] That is a major claim, and it's backed a major source. "Relatives were handed plastic bags with their children's belongings" is not a major claim. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 20:56, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Montazeri's letter has nothing to do with this RFC (please see the RFC content once again). I don't know why you are trying to put irrelevant comments. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:20, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Montazeri's letter is about the 1988 execution of MEK prisoners. "Relatives were handed plastic bags with their children's belongings" is also about the 1988 execution of MEK prisoners. See the connection? Montazeri's letter is a major claim about this incident; the "plastic bags" claim isn't (what this RfC is about). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:36, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikilawyering! Can you say why should this article include such a disputed detail of a tangentially related incident which is supported by a contentious source? The Daily Beast is not something to be used for this text. --Mhhossein ^talk 17:53, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• No Only one source and its not a strong reliable source. Seems undue and an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary reliable sources.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 21:57, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes Daily Beast is ok source for this. Idealigic (talk) 16:12, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's no clear consensus on using Daily Beast at RSN. --Mhhossein ^talk 18:47, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes Per Stefka. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:49, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes also per Stefka. Ypatch (talk) 16:02, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• To the closure: Please weight arguments, not the amount of votes.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 18:56, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please add link to Mojahedin-e-Khalq Organization (MEK) for https://mek-iran, as this is the official website for this organization, not referenced in this article. 65.158.226.226 (talk) 15:23, 27 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. Not a valid link. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 16:16, 27 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are way too many statements by former members of MEK in this article. They are sprinkled in different sections with criticisms of MEK that don't really confirm anything except maybe trying to put the MEK in a bad light. Some of them coming from Iranian government-related institutions such as Nejat Society. Some just tell us is that these former members of MEK have criticized the MEK, nothing more. I will remove the more WP:POV and WP:UNDUE ones, and propose that the rest are edited (we don't need so many). This is what I will remove so far:

• "According to Masoud Banisadr, following the Iraqi invasion of Iran in 1980, MEK called Saddam Hussein an "aggressor" and a "dictator"."

• "Maryam Rajavi has been reported by former MEK members as having said: "Take the Kurds under your tanks, and save your bullets for the Iranian Revolutionary Guards."^[1]

The first doesn't tell us if the MEK were in conflict with Hussain following the Iraqi invasion of Iran in 1980, and the second does't tell us if the MEK was in conflict with the Kurds (and we already know the MEK was in conflict with the Iranian Revolutionary guards). Ypatch (talk) 16:02, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Both sentences are well sourced and "if the MEK were in conflict with Hussain following the Iraqi invasion of Iran in 1980" or "if the MEK was in conflict with the Kurds" is not a proper justification for such a removal. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:24, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. What do these statements add to the article? Ypatch (talk) 16:04, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the first one shows how MEK have probably changed his viewpoints throughout its life and the second one shows the group's alliance with Saddam Hussein. So what? --Mhhossein ^talk 18:17, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop removing the comments by former members without having them discussed here. --Mhhossein ^talk 13:29, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is that your substantiation for reverting? If so, it's not a substantiated revert. We already have in the article the different viewpoints the MEK has gone through, and we already have in the article the group's alliance with Saddam Hussein. Both these topics are already described at length in the article, so please provide a substantiated reason for your revert, and remember that verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. Ypatch (talk) 16:00, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I know "verifiability does not guarantee inclusion" but you can't simply remove a major viewpoint on that basis. POVs regarding MEK's alliance with Saddam should be mentioned in the article. --Mhhossein ^talk 17:42, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These are not "major viewpoints"; but rather, POV from MEK defectors which in fact don't add any new details about these events. I agree they should be removed from the article, mainly per WP:NPOV but also because the MEK's ideology and collaboration with Hussain are already in the article and covered by better and more neutral sources. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 14:51, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is your personal viewpoint regarding the issue. No, I disagree its removal from the article as I explained. You may launch an RFC though. --Mhhossein ^talk 05:38, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhossein, these are just testimonies from former MEK members about things already in the article, they are not "a major viewpoints". You're stonewalling here. Alex-h (talk) 14:45, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Stefka Bulgaria et al.: Masoud Banisadr is not simply a former MEK member, he is a scholar authoring books and articles so his views should be distinguished from what you are portraying here. Also, "Take the Kurds under your tanks, and save your bullets for the Iranian Revolutionary Guards"1 is very widely used by sources by various reliable sources. That said you are free to launch an RFC for these two sentences. --Mhhossein ^talk 18:16, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We've had this discussion several times before. Massoud Banisadr is a former MEK member who's few published works solely consist of portraying the MEK in a bad light. Also, your argument for keeping "Take the Kurds under your tanks, and save your bullets for the Iranian Revolutionary Guards" is a straw man argument: This is a statement by a former MEK member, nothing more. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:34, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We are not going to censor Massoud Banisadr's comments only because YOU think he is "portraying the MEK in a bad light". What do you mean by "bad light"? Are those who support MEK's cause good guys? As for the MEK's massacre of Kurds in Iraq, I provided a link to show how repeatedly the quotation is used. Your attempt to remove the comments published by reliable sources without providing sufficient reasoning is highly questionable. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:00, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: sorry to hassle you again with my pings. There is a majority consensus here that these two quotes from past members of the MEK don't add anything new to the article except more superficial criticism from former members of MEK. These are the two quotes:

• "According to Masoud Banisadr, following the Iraqi invasion of Iran in 1980, MEK called Saddam Hussein an "aggressor" and a "dictator"."

• "Maryam Rajavi has been reported by former MEK members as having said: "Take the Kurds under your tanks, and save your bullets for the Iranian Revolutionary Guards."^[2]

Stefka, Alex-h, and myself (and also Icewhiz in an older talk page discussion) agree that this is the case, while Mhhossein keeps arguing in favor of keeping them.

Is Mhhossein Filibustering the consensus process here by "Insisting on unanimity can allow a minority opinion to filibuster the process. If someone knows that the group cannot move forward without their consent, they may harden their position in order to get their way. This is considered unacceptable on Wikipedia as a form of gaming the system, as well as tendentious editing."? Ypatch (talk) 18:00, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, bias and unreliability are two different concepts. A source may be critical of the MEK and still be reliable. The real question is whether a source is getting undue weight or not. If there's three (four?) of you arguing to remove the source, and only one editor is arguing to keep it, that is fairly substantial consensus, though it wouldn't hurt to formalize it through an RfC. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:39, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Vanamonde. Yes, there is a majority consensus here, so I will remove the disputed content. Per WP:ONUS, Mhhossein can launch a RfC so that he can build consensus before inclusion of the disputed contents. Ypatch (talk) 21:27, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Since Polling is not a substitute for discussion and none of the users have responded to why they are going to censor Massoud Banisadr's comments only because they think he is "portraying the MEK in a bad light" and why the quotation "Take the Kurds under your tanks, and save your bullets for the Iranian Revolutionary Guards"which id heavily covered by the sources, should be removed. Vanamonde: I suggest going by asking a 3rd opinion (an un-involved and neutral user) or by launching an RFC.--Mhhossein ^talk 12:12, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: I find at least three reliable sources mentioning the quote by Rajavi asking to kill the Kurds (see [38], [39] and [40]). Also, Masoud Banisadr is a an author and former member of MEK. I believe his views should be weighed more than other former members. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:33, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) The quote which appeared in NYT is also repeated in the report by RAND (p. 62). Also, the command is described by Center for American Progress as being infamous. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:41, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This revert by Mhhossein is edit warring against the achieved consensus in this talk page. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 12:39, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OUNS is NOT a relevant policy here! The content has been there for a long period of time. It's on the other party to establish consensus based on solid arguments to removed the content.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 12:42, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User:SharabSalam: The users have ganged up against me. @Vanamonde93:: I have performed a self revert in compliance with the page's restriction. I did not know I had reverted it once but please see my previous comments saying how the quote is covered by the reliable sources. --Mhhossein ^talk 12:47, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: First Mhhossein edit-warred here by going against the consensus in this Talk page discussion, then he reverted to avoid sactions, but then SharabSalam put back that edit without even participating in why the content was removed in the first place. Ypatch (talk) 16:34, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I have full-protected the page. Any further edit-warring after protection lapses will be met with a block. Mhhossein, it's no use throwing sources at me; I'm not the one you have to persuade. When due weight is all that is being judged, the talk page discussion here was sufficient for determining consensus; Indeed, talk page discussions are generally the best way to reach consensus, because RfCs take time and effort. RfCs have been necessary here because none of you is every willing to modify your positions after rational discussion, and so outside opinion is necessary. Mhhossein, the only reason you are not blocked right now is because you self-reverted. Now that SharabSalam has supported your position, I agree that an RfC is the best way to go. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:41, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: Thank you for your response. Didn't SharabSalam violate the restrictions by bold-editing back into the article something that he had not even participated on in the first place? It took some time for all editors to comment here, getting some kind of consensus, and just in one minute, all is reverted back. Ypatch (talk) 17:37, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mhhossein, SharabSalam, and you all made reverts that were inappropriate. I'm sorely tempted to block all of you; please don't give me further reason to do so. Open an RfC, and focus on presenting a coherent and reasonable argument there. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:00, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SharabSalam didn't violate any restrictions. You deleted a long standing content that is sourced to solid sources. I don't see any reason for deleting that content except WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. And I have made a comment above about your WP:GAMING of ouns. OUNS is not on the longstanding content. Removal of sourced long-standing content should has consensus first.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 18:36, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I made a self-revert after I checked the article history. Nothing happened in practice! --Mhhossein ^talk 03:01, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]