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@Onceinawhile

Your edit summary said restructure in order of size of community, but what you did is much more than that, as we both know. You completely removed the Arab League paragraph, which explains why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generations. Why do you not find that relevant? Synotia (talk) 08:50, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't start a discussion about reverted material and before even receiving a reply, edit disputed content back in. Selfstudier (talk) 09:50, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Synotia: the Arab League paragraph you added to the lede is from an article about Saudi Arabia. The paragraph was drafted in a misleading manner, to imply that the Arab League is at fault for the state of all Palestinian refugees. There are three things wrong with this:

• The primary reason for the legal limbo is Israel’s removal of their citizenship rights in 1952 and the failure of Israel to honor its legal responsibility for refugees known as the Palestinian right of return
• Of the 5.5m refugees, 4.0m live in Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza, which the Arab League paragraph does not apply to.
• The Arab League position, according to the article on Saudi, appears to relate only to citizenship. That does not explain the dire status of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, which is due to much harsher restrictions. As an aside, we should try to find the original Arab League pronouncement and add it to the article.

In summary, you state that your Arab League paragraph "explains why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generations", whereas the truth is that the position of the Arab League "is the secondary reason why approximately [10%] of Palestinian-refugees have remained stateless after all these generations". I don’t see that as lede-worthy, but I don’t object to it being in the lede so long as it is given due weight and written with very careful contextualization. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:03, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Of the 5.5m refugees, 4.0m live in Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza, which the Arab League paragraph does not apply to.

Of course, hence why I contrasted the case of Jordan in the edit you turned into a mishmash ;) I propose also adding the case of the West Bank next to Jordan.

However, these are exceptions among Arab countries, with the reason being the Arab League guideline. This does not deny that these people have been exiled as a consequence of Israel's actions, as you seem to be trying to imply? Synotia (talk) 11:19, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some material can be added in the article body (with careful contextualization per Once), it seems not particularly lead worthy given that the Arab League is not primarily responsible for why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generations as you suggest. Selfstudier (talk) 11:27, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If I didn't find Palestinian refugees in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc lead-worthy, I'd have agreed with you. Omitting the Arab League paragraph is the opposite of this careful contextualization whose importance you are both eager to underline. Synotia (talk) 11:34, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Synotia: I am sure we can find a form of words which deals appropriately with everyone's concerns. Would you like to propose a redrafting of the lede here on the talk page so we can all agree on the drafting? Onceinawhile (talk) 11:36, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I still believe this diff is the best.

I propose to write this before the famed alinea:

Approximately 2,000,000 refugees and their descendants live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, under Israeli occupation and blockade. X million also live in neighboring Arab countries. [can optionally be enumerated]

The Arab League has instructed that Palestinians living in Arab countries should not be given citizenship of these countries, "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland". Synotia (talk) 16:04, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Arab League agreement is called the Casablanca protocol. Here's a recent book Last time I checked there were quite a few stateless refugees in the EU as well, idk if that's changed. Selfstudier (talk) 15:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, this is very helpful. Doesn't quite say what Synotia's drafting suggests. Also fascinating to see Lebanon's shameful reservations.

I think an article on the Casablanca protocol would be a worthwhile topic. Synotia, would you be willing to help draft it with me?

Onceinawhile (talk) 22:55, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What is there that contradicts my draft? I mentioned most notably the absence of right to vote, limited property rights and access to social services like healthcare and education, which is not covered in the Casablanca protocol either.

And sure, I'm open to help draft an article. I'm not sure it will be very long.
And yes, Lebanon is probably the worst place to be a Palestinian refugee, at least before the Syrian Civil War. Synotia (talk) 10:21, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article body already has "The Arab League has instructed its members to deny citizenship to original Palestine Arab refugees (or their descendants) "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland".

The question is whether that is correct and then whether it is lead worthy. For a start it is usual for the lead to summarize the body, not merely to repeat what is in the body. Selfstudier (talk) 10:55, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't really matter when it's one single sentence though, especially when it's such crucial background information to understand what follows.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is something Arab leaders, whether pan-Arabists or Islamists, have used for ages to try and unite the region... Synotia (talk) 11:04, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It does matter if it is undue (for the lead) ie is the importance being given to this particular aspect justified. The right of return, mentioned at several points in the body is mentioned only indirectly at the end of the lead, for example, and I would view that matter as being more important than the protocol as a contributory factor to the plight of the refugees, which is in essence the absence of justice for them. In truth I am not particularly happy with the lead as it stands, never mind further additions on the point. Should you write the Casablanca article you can wikilink it in the lead and interested persons can follow that to know more. Selfstudier (talk) 11:16, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]