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The article uses the term "patrilineal". The source however uses the words "descendants of male refugees". They don't descibe the same group of people:

- Partilineal descendants would mean descendants of male refugees, their sons, and of their sons, and of their sons, etc. It would not include descendants of a daughter of a male refugee.

- On the other hand, the words "descendants of a male refugee" means all children and childrens' children etc. of a male refugee, including his daughters' children and their childrens' children.

--PeterTrompeter (talk) 11:06, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I changed it and the ref in the article body, if you are happy with that, I will change it in the lead as well.Selfstudier (talk) 11:40, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Izzy Borden:

• Statement in article: The term [Palestinian refugees] originally referred to both Arabs and Jews whose normal place of residence had been in Mandatory Palestine but were displaced and lost their livelihoods as a result of the 1948 Palestine war.
• Quoation in citation: The term 'refugees' applies to all persons, Arabs, Jews and others who have been displaced from their homes in Palestine. This would include Arabs in Israel who have been shifted from their normal places of residence. It would also include Jews who had their homes in Arab Palestine, such as the inhabitants of the Jewish quarter of the Old City. It would not include Arabs who lost their lands but not their houses, such as the inhabitants of Tulkarm

The citation does not support:

• Any description of the specific term “Palestinian refugees”
• Any comment on how the term was “originally” used

Yes there were a small number of Jewish refugees, but they are not in scope for this article.

Onceinawhile (talk) 21:12, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The quote refers to an analysis of UN resolution 194, and top the term "Palestinian refugee" that appears there. It is explicit that it refers to both Jewish and Arab refugees. What is it exactly that you think fails verification? That the text doesn't use the word 'originally"? The paragraph before the quote says this is "the earliest record" of such a discussion,. In that case we can reword to something like "When the term was first used in UN 194, it referred to both.... " Izzy Borden (talk) 23:44, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Palestinian refugee" does not appear in Res 194. The name most commonly used in the early days, namely "Palestine refugee", appears there only in the name of the UNRWA-precursor United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees. The reason "Palestine refugee" was used rather than "Palestinian refugee" despite its grammatical awkwardness must be documented somewhere; I'll guess it was because "Palestinian" at the time was a nationality. "Palestine refugees" included Jews permanently displaced within Palestine, but this usage soon dropped off when Israel took over their care. Zero^talk 04:18, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. The paragraph of this article we are talking about starts with "In 1949, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) defined Palestinian refugees to refer to the original "Palestine refugees". You agree that "Palestine refugees" included Jews permanently displaced within Palestine, which is what was removed, despite being sourced to a scholarly book that says that. What is it that fails verification? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Izzy Borden (talk • contribs) 11:30, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence reads very poorly and is mostly unsourced. Neither source says that UNRWA defined "Palestinian refugees". They used, and still use, the name "Palestine refugees". The difference is that "Palestinian refugees" implies Palestinians, while "Palestine refugees" is a legal concept that only persists in UN resolutions and official documents. These are related but not identical concepts and it is wrong to equate them. The part of the sentence you omitted, "as well as their patrilineal descendants" is correct with respect to UNRWA's definition but the sources do not say that UNRWA established that rule in the few weeks of 1949 remaining after its establishment. I think it is right and proper to mention that "Palestine refugee" initially included some Jews, but they aren't the topic of the article. They belong at UNRWA. Zero^talk 12:23, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry , it is still not clear to me what failed verification. The article currently says the UNRWA defined "Palestinian refugee" to mean the same as the original "Palestine refugees". Perhaps that's wrong, but then this is the sentence that fails verification, not the one that was removed. I omitted that part about descendants only for brevity, tt has nothing to do with the point I am making. Izzy Borden (talk) 19:57, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The removed sentence started "The term originally referred to both Arabs and Jews..." and the only possible meaning of "the term" in context is "Palestinian refugees", not "Palestine refugees" (which hasn't been mentioned at all). The source given does not mention the term "Palestinian refugees", so the claim is unsourced. It is the same issue as remains with the following sentence. The source is relevant but paragraph needs rewriting to cite the source correctly. Zero^talk 02:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

the sentence before the sentence that was removed says 'Palestinian refugee' was used to mean the same as Palestine refugee. The source that was removed says Palestine refugee referred to Jews, as well. What fails verification? Izzy Borden (talk) 11:52, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you mean the sentence after. I have addressed it already. Zero^talk 12:03, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

yes, sorry, the sentence after. So if we reverse the order of the sentences, to first say that 'Palestinian refugee' was used to mean the same as Palestine refugee, and then provide (the sourced statement) that Palestine refugee referred to Jews, as well, what fails verification? Izzy Borden (talk) 13:40, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Onceinawhile

Your edit summary said restructure in order of size of community, but what you did is much more than that, as we both know. You completely removed the Arab League paragraph, which explains why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generations. Why do you not find that relevant? Synotia (talk) 08:50, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't start a discussion about reverted material and before even receiving a reply, edit disputed content back in. Selfstudier (talk) 09:50, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Synotia: the Arab League paragraph you added to the lede is from an article about Saudi Arabia. The paragraph was drafted in a misleading manner, to imply that the Arab League is at fault for the state of all Palestinian refugees. There are three things wrong with this:

• The primary reason for the legal limbo is Israel’s removal of their citizenship rights in 1952 and the failure of Israel to honor its legal responsibility for refugees known as the Palestinian right of return
• Of the 5.5m refugees, 4.0m live in Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza, which the Arab League paragraph does not apply to.
• The Arab League position, according to the article on Saudi, appears to relate only to citizenship. That does not explain the dire status of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, which is due to much harsher restrictions. As an aside, we should try to find the original Arab League pronouncement and add it to the article.

In summary, you state that your Arab League paragraph "explains why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generations", whereas the truth is that the position of the Arab League "is the secondary reason why approximately [10%] of Palestinian-refugees have remained stateless after all these generations". I don’t see that as lede-worthy, but I don’t object to it being in the lede so long as it is given due weight and written with very careful contextualization. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:03, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Of the 5.5m refugees, 4.0m live in Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza, which the Arab League paragraph does not apply to.

Of course, hence why I contrasted the case of Jordan in the edit you turned into a mishmash ;) I propose also adding the case of the West Bank next to Jordan.

However, these are exceptions among Arab countries, with the reason being the Arab League guideline. This does not deny that these people have been exiled as a consequence of Israel's actions, as you seem to be trying to imply? Synotia (talk) 11:19, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some material can be added in the article body (with careful contextualization per Once), it seems not particularly lead worthy given that the Arab League is not primarily responsible for why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generations as you suggest. Selfstudier (talk) 11:27, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If I didn't find Palestinian refugees in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc lead-worthy, I'd have agreed with you. Omitting the Arab League paragraph is the opposite of this careful contextualization whose importance you are both eager to underline. Synotia (talk) 11:34, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Synotia: I am sure we can find a form of words which deals appropriately with everyone's concerns. Would you like to propose a redrafting of the lede here on the talk page so we can all agree on the drafting? Onceinawhile (talk) 11:36, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I still believe this diff is the best.

I propose to write this before the famed alinea:

Approximately 2,000,000 refugees and their descendants live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, under Israeli occupation and blockade. X million also live in neighboring Arab countries. [can optionally be enumerated]

The Arab League has instructed that Palestinians living in Arab countries should not be given citizenship of these countries, "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland". Synotia (talk) 16:04, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Arab League agreement is called the Casablanca protocol. Here's a recent book Last time I checked there were quite a few stateless refugees in the EU as well, idk if that's changed. Selfstudier (talk) 15:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]