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@Onceinawhile

Your edit summary said restructure in order of size of community, but what you did is much more than that, as we both know. You completely removed the Arab League paragraph, which explains why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generations. Why do you not find that relevant? Synotia (talk) 08:50, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't start a discussion about reverted material and before even receiving a reply, edit disputed content back in. Selfstudier (talk) 09:50, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Synotia: the Arab League paragraph you added to the lede is from an article about Saudi Arabia. The paragraph was drafted in a misleading manner, to imply that the Arab League is at fault for the state of all Palestinian refugees. There are three things wrong with this:

• The primary reason for the legal limbo is Israel’s removal of their citizenship rights in 1952 and the failure of Israel to honor its legal responsibility for refugees known as the Palestinian right of return
• Of the 5.5m refugees, 4.0m live in Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza, which the Arab League paragraph does not apply to.
• The Arab League position, according to the article on Saudi, appears to relate only to citizenship. That does not explain the dire status of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, which is due to much harsher restrictions. As an aside, we should try to find the original Arab League pronouncement and add it to the article.

In summary, you state that your Arab League paragraph "explains why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generations", whereas the truth is that the position of the Arab League "is the secondary reason why approximately [10%] of Palestinian-refugees have remained stateless after all these generations". I don’t see that as lede-worthy, but I don’t object to it being in the lede so long as it is given due weight and written with very careful contextualization. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:03, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Of the 5.5m refugees, 4.0m live in Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza, which the Arab League paragraph does not apply to.

Of course, hence why I contrasted the case of Jordan in the edit you turned into a mishmash ;) I propose also adding the case of the West Bank next to Jordan.

However, these are exceptions among Arab countries, with the reason being the Arab League guideline. This does not deny that these people have been exiled as a consequence of Israel's actions, as you seem to be trying to imply? Synotia (talk) 11:19, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some material can be added in the article body (with careful contextualization per Once), it seems not particularly lead worthy given that the Arab League is not primarily responsible for why Palestinian-descended people are kept in legal limbo after all these generations as you suggest. Selfstudier (talk) 11:27, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If I didn't find Palestinian refugees in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc lead-worthy, I'd have agreed with you. Omitting the Arab League paragraph is the opposite of this careful contextualization whose importance you are both eager to underline. Synotia (talk) 11:34, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Synotia: I am sure we can find a form of words which deals appropriately with everyone's concerns. Would you like to propose a redrafting of the lede here on the talk page so we can all agree on the drafting? Onceinawhile (talk) 11:36, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I still believe this diff is the best.

I propose to write this before the famed alinea:

Approximately 2,000,000 refugees and their descendants live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, under Israeli occupation and blockade. X million also live in neighboring Arab countries. [can optionally be enumerated]

The Arab League has instructed that Palestinians living in Arab countries should not be given citizenship of these countries, "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland". Synotia (talk) 16:04, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Arab League agreement is called the Casablanca protocol. Here's a recent book Last time I checked there were quite a few stateless refugees in the EU as well, idk if that's changed. Selfstudier (talk) 15:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, this is very helpful. Doesn't quite say what Synotia's drafting suggests. Also fascinating to see Lebanon's shameful reservations.

I think an article on the Casablanca protocol would be a worthwhile topic. Synotia, would you be willing to help draft it with me?

Onceinawhile (talk) 22:55, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What is there that contradicts my draft? I mentioned most notably the absence of right to vote, limited property rights and access to social services like healthcare and education, which is not covered in the Casablanca protocol either.

And sure, I'm open to help draft an article. I'm not sure it will be very long.
And yes, Lebanon is probably the worst place to be a Palestinian refugee, at least before the Syrian Civil War. Synotia (talk) 10:21, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article body already has "The Arab League has instructed its members to deny citizenship to original Palestine Arab refugees (or their descendants) "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland".

The question is whether that is correct and then whether it is lead worthy. For a start it is usual for the lead to summarize the body, not merely to repeat what is in the body. Selfstudier (talk) 10:55, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't really matter when it's one single sentence though, especially when it's such crucial background information to understand what follows.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is something Arab leaders, whether pan-Arabists or Islamists, have used for ages to try and unite the region... Synotia (talk) 11:04, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It does matter if it is undue (for the lead) ie is the importance being given to this particular aspect justified. The right of return, mentioned at several points in the body is mentioned only indirectly at the end of the lead, for example, and I would view that matter as being more important than the protocol as a contributory factor to the plight of the refugees, which is in essence the absence of justice for them. In truth I am not particularly happy with the lead as it stands, never mind further additions on the point. Should you write the Casablanca article you can wikilink it in the lead and interested persons can follow that to know more. Selfstudier (talk) 11:16, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am convinced both are relevant. And the right of return is directly mentioned however? Synotia (talk) 11:18, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They are both relevant and that is why they are both in the article body, that does not mean that we need to make a meal out of the secondary cause in the lead. Selfstudier (talk) 11:21, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Secondary cause of what? Synotia (talk) 11:24, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I just explained that, read the book I linked above (and there others) if you want to properly understand the situation. Happy Xmas. Selfstudier (talk) 11:32, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again.

So... what do we do now? A couple of days later I still stand by my position that this stuff is lead-worthy. Synotia (talk) 17:28, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You have not consensus for that as yet, maybe take up Once suggestion to write the Casablanca article. If you want to get a wider view you could start an RFC and see whether other editors agree with you. Selfstudier (talk) 17:32, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have been reading up on the Casablanca protocol, which, by the way, was basically rescinded in 1991. The more I read the more certain I am that Synotia’s proposed edit would not be a correct representation.

The Casablanca protocol article will not be very long as it is just a part of the story. Some good articles as follows:

• https://issuu.com/middle-east-studies/docs/issue6 see article starting at page 103
• https://escholarship.org/content/qt9dx9w0gz/qt9dx9w0gz_noSplash_6ec56ac79aeee852960f40c715ce0634.pdf from page 143 onwards
• https://fada.birzeit.edu/bitstream/20.500.11889/3381/3/Socioeconomic%20Rights%20of%20Palestinian%20Refugees%20in%20Arab%20Counties.pdf
• https://www.jstor.org/stable/2538257

It is an important topic worth us covering properly.

Onceinawhile (talk) 21:22, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Quite a bit in that book I linked as well. Selfstudier (talk) 22:13, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we would all end up more informed in the end :) The Casablanca Protocol is absolutely article-worthy... I do wonder how my proposal for the lead would not be a correct representation... Synotia (talk) 09:06, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At least you would be able to link to it in the lead. Selfstudier (talk) 09:42, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I searched to find the genesis of the quote in Synotia’s proposed text (which has been in the main body of the article for some time). It can be found in various pro-Israeli polemical publications quoted if it was an Arab League quote, but does not appear in any scholarly or official publications. It looks to have originated in that same 2004 Arab News article as the words of that single journalist with no prior source. On this basis I have removed the quote, so we can replace it with detailed scholarly analysis. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:50, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here, the original text of the Casablanca protocol. You can find the words المحافظة على الكيان الفلسطيني which could be translated into "The preservation of the Palestinian Dasein". Or being, or, if you like, identity.

I also found this by the way, haven't read it all but it contains a bunch of information on the status of Palestinians, with sources underneath. It notably claims the Casablanca Protocol was more a gesture of goodwill than a binding thing. I don't know these folks' academic rigor though. Synotia (talk) 10:10, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The book has "the LAS was instrumental in the creation of a regional framework for the protection of basic rights – mostly economic and social rights – of Palestinian refugees, which culminated in the adoption of the 1965 Casablanca Protocol on the Treatment of Palestinians, discussed below. Arguably, in elaborating this framework, political (and security) considerations were a primary factor, as important as considerations of Arab solidarity; the main preoccupation of the Arab states, as vocally expressed in international fora, was to affirm that Palestinian refugees should be allowed to return to their homes in present-day Israel. Hence the Arab states decided that the refugees should not be naturalized, as this was perceived as undermining their claims under General Assembly resolution 194(III) of 1948 (hereinafter ‘resolution 194’)." In any case the situation of the refugees needs to be traced back through their effective exclusion from the Refugee convention and up through the PLO support for Saddam Hussein in 90/91 leading to resolution 5093 of 12 September 1991, which stipulated that the Protocol’s implementation would be subject to ‘the rules and laws in force in each state’ (a substantial weakening of the protocol in practice).Selfstudier (talk) 10:51, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't see how this contradicts the "secure their right to return to their homeland"? Synotia (talk) 11:08, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Where have I said it did? My argument remains the same as always WP:UNDUE for the lead. Will you be starting the article (or an RFC) soon? Selfstudier (talk) 11:15, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have just managed to get hold of a copy of the book Selfstudier linked to (Albanese, F.P.; Takkenberg, L. (2020). Palestinian Refugees in International Law. OUP Oxford. ISBN 978-0-19-108678-6.).

It is excellent. Its authors ([1] and [2]) are two of the world's foremost experts on the topic of Palestinian refugees.

The chapter IV. The Status of Palestinian Refugees in the Middle East and North Africa: Unpacking an Unsettling Solidarity on pages 183-268 covers the overarching topic we are discussing here in far more detail than I believe any other publication anywhere.

Onceinawhile (talk) 13:58, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Article started at Casablanca Protocol. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:33, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I kind of forgot about rechecking how the article looked like lol. Feliz Navidad I guess, from Slowpoke Rodriguez.

Now sorry but the introduction is still crappy to me. There is your incorrect claim that Palestinians in Syria have the same rights as Syrians.

I also propose mentioning the Casablanca Protocol in the introduction with further information inside that article about the practical impact of that Protocol on Palestinian refugees. Synotia (talk) 13:51, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The wording there re Syrians is not incorrect. It does not say what you say it does. It is fine of course to be more fulsome, so we are clear what rights they do not have.

On the Casablanca protocol, feel free to draft something.

Onceinawhile (talk) 19:59, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I've noticed this article does not discuss the palestinians that went to Egypt after 1948 even though there is a large number of them Dana Saber (talk) 19:46, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good question I was about to ask the same thing. Also not mentioned is that every arab country that accepted palestinian refugees after 1948 have had their governments attacked by the refugees. The Black September was an armed conflict in Jordan in the early 70's that involved a violent government takeover attempt by the palestinian refugees. Similar events happened in every arab country that accepted palestinian refugees. Dionyseus (talk) 14:29, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So which similar event happened in Egypt? Zero^talk 00:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The text in the 4th paragraph about the 700,000 displaced Arabs is misleading.

"During the 1948 Palestine War, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs or 85% of the total population in what became Israel fled or were expelled from their homes, to the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and to the countries of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan."

It could be read to mean "85% of the 1945 total population of Israel, minus the West Bank, Gaza, and east Jerusalem", which might be true. It could also mean "85% of the total Arab population in what became Israel". That could be close to true. However, it implies "85% of the total population in all the territory today known as Israel". Which is no where near true. The population is listed in a linked article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandator,y_Palestine#Demographics, as being 1,764,520, with Arabs being 1,061,270. But 700,000 isn't 85% of 1,061,270, and it isn't 85% of 1,764,520.

I'm not sure what the data refers to, but it's certainly misleading. 71.226.69.156 (talk) 18:35, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Selfstudier (talk) 19:13, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

- Refugees are systematically as war refugees here which is giving a wrong impression to readers.Should Arabe ountries had won that war then maybe Palestinians could have stayed but it is not even certain. Europe might have come to the rescue. So, the real reason is the estabishment of Israel.

(To me it is a bit the same as claiming that the purge of all Jews (but now only: all European diaspora) was due to the fact that Arabs had lost this war, out of pride. In reality it was a reaction to a project (Israel) they had always been opposed to.)

So it weems unfair to claim that Palestinians were refugees of a war that would never had happened without zionism.

2. There were 250'000 refugees in Gaza strip beginning of 1950 and a total population of 1'760^000 in 2015 based on my research. The number of refugees and their descents cannot possibly be 550'000. I couldn't fin a chart on UNWRA . It is really difficult to extract facts from there. I used a Website called Statistica (refresh browser each time).

3. There were refugees before WWWII. Whole villages erased and people thrown out and put on road by very hot wether. I'll try to find a source.

4. Anything more precise about West Bank? When they arrived and how many? (I struggle to find figuress) Thank you. Leaving Neveland (talk) 00:08, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The claim about Benny Morris is incorrect and footnote 32 supporting this position is taken out of context.

The line currently reads, According to historian Benny Morris, the expulsion was planned and encouraged by the Zionist leadership.[32]

However it should read: According to historian Benny Morris, expulsion was encouraged by some Zionist leaders during parts of the 1948 war, although it was never established policy.[32]

The beginning of the footnote [32] 2601:45:4001:AA60:C8DD:9A25:DC43:F6BF (talk) 04:01, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]