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Persian depictions of Europeans that are critical of their religious attitudes are all but unknown. Possibly the only exception is an illustration in the edition of Nizami's Makhzan al-asrar which relates to the parable of Jesus and the Dead Dog. I suggest adding this to the Makhzan-ol-Asrâr section. SoulGardener (talk) 12:05, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nizami Ganjavi as can be seen from the name is Azerbaijani poet that was born in Azerbaijan territories. Cannot be stated as Persian poet. It is misleading! 5.197.211.44 (talk) 16:48, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You would need to point to some really good reliable sources for that, as we already cite reliable sources for the current statement. – Thjarkur (talk) 16:54, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable source is this - the fact - a person who ONLY lived in modern Azerbaijan's territory in an Azerbaijani city Ganja (second largest). This is enough to conclude Nizami can be referred to as historical Azerbaijani figure. Simple as it is. Even if his ethnicity were Japanese, Chinese and any other he would still be Azerbaijani.

Queen Elizabeth had German origin. Is she called German? No, she is British. She lived and ruled in UK. Gunner555 (talk) 23:19, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

He lived in north of Aras river. To explain the relationship between that region and the concept of "Iran", we can examine these cases:

1.The most important reason to know Ganjavi as an Iranian peot is his love for the concept of Iran. For example, when he prays for "Crep Arslan"(Seljuk king), he says in a simile: "The whole world is like the body and Iran is its heart; I am not ashamed to make this comparison; and it is certain that the heart is better than all the body."^[1](The same poems that the government of the Republic of Azerbaijan has deleted for the citizens🙂)

2.We know that Nezami Ganjavi lived during the Seljuk period. And we also know that the Seljuk kings were considered the king of "Iran". In this inscription written on the wall of Hassan's tomb in Syria, you can clearly see that the Nuraldin Zangi was considered the king of Iran.^[3] In the first line in Arabic, he introduces the ruler and in the third line, in Persian, he is considered the world king of Iran.(Jahānkhosro ie Iran, amirolmarāghin shariare sham

And in this inscription, which has been corrected by Nuraldin Zangi and written earlier, Alp Arslan is known as the King of Iran.^[4] File:بازنویسی کتیبه آلپ‌ارسلان.jpg In the tenth line it says "Alp Arsalan, the king of Iran"(Pahlavāne jahān, khosroye Iran, Aleb ghazi, Āgh Ārsalān.)

3.Even Yaqut al-Hamawi, who traveled in the late Seljuk period and wrote the Dictionary of Countries after the Mongol invasion, has repeatedly called it "Iranshahr" in the Sassanid style, and has also considered Azerbaijan and Armenia as part of "Iran".^[5]

4.The idea of "Iran" even exists among other poets and other kings of the region. For example, Khaghani praised Sultan Abu Muzaffar Shervani, as the king of Iran.^[6] For example, in the first line of the first paragraph, it says: "King of the Iranians (is) Jalaluddin; superior to the Samanids (is) Jalaluddin"(Shāhe iraniān jalāloddin, sare sāmāniān jalāloddin.)^[7] Or in praise of Atabak, Mozaffaruddin Ghezel Arsalan" calls him the King of Iran.(Shāhe Iran mozafaroddin ān kaz sare kasrā afsar andazad)^[8]

5.The idea of "Iran" was used even before Ganjavi for the people of the region and the rulers of Ganje. For example, Qatran Tabrizi, to admiration "Lashkari" (King of Shaddadids), calls him the Shah of Iran and the successor of the Sasanians.^[9](First, he prays that the Sassanids will rule the region again)

Therefore, I think it is logical if we consider Nezami Ganjavi as Iranian Histo.beh (talk) 14:54, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, you sound so desperate. Those famous people you cited refer to "Iran" as name of territory (Persia) and it is a geographical name. Turkic states were founded in so-called Persia and their rulers were praised being rulers of that land. For them it was pride to be ruler and conqueror of it. This reference doesnt mean a State named Persia. It is an exonym. Persia is similar to Siberia - as a romantic geographical and historical term. Gunner555 (talk) 21:17, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The country of Azerbaijan, Nezami Ganjavi, introduces the Iranian poet with an Azerbaijani lie. If according to Nizami Ganjavi's statements in his poems, he is an Iranian.

he says in a simile: "The whole world is like the body and Iran is its heart; I am not ashamed to make this comparison; and it is certain that the heart is better than all the body."[1](The same poems that the government of the Republic of Azerbaijan has deleted for the citizens) 31.7.114.40 (talk) 17:34, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Iranian? Iran is a new state created in first half of 20th century. How Nizami can love Iran in 12th century? How a citizen of Eldenizli Atabeg State born and lived in Gandja, Azerbaijan be Persian or Iranian? Absolutely pointless. 212.47.136.128 (talk) 21:08, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If Eric Clapton is mentioned, then surely The Tedeschi Trucks Band deserve a bigger mention for their four part 2022 album "I am the moon" based on/around Themes from Layla and Majnun I'm trying to get this mentioned the other way round so it can be cross - referenced 92.1.65.238 (talk) 10:35, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is wikipedia-wide wrong assumption that Nizami is allegedly a Persian poet. Where is the source? Nizami lived in the state of Eldaniz (Atabegs), which was formed in modern Azerbaijan with original capital in Nakhichevan by turkic ruler Shamsaddin Eldeniz. He lived in Gandja city and never left this place in his life. Basically, he was resident and citizen of turkic state of Eldeniz and had nothing to do with Persia. And his father is definitely oghuz turk. So he is Azerbaijani poet. Nizami wrote his poems in persian and arabic because the kings ordered those works from him and chose their languages. Because Nizami wrote in Persian doesn't make him Persian. What an absurd claim by a section author here saying "Nizami loved this and that kings in Iran"...None of those kings were Persian, all were Seljug and Eldenizli State rulers. It is disrespectful. It must be changed to Nizami, Azerbaijani poet 212.47.136.128 (talk) 21:05, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@/212.47.136.128(/ Gunner555?) Ganjavi is included in many scholarly books on Persian literature which are already used as sources in the article. Additionally, there are multiple sources already cited stating he is Persian (see the article). There is a large amount of published literature discussing his impact on Persian literature, and his works were written in the Persian language. Azerbaijan wasn't formed until centuries after his death, so describing him as Azerbaijani is not accurate. As a matter of policy as well as historical accuracy, we don't retroactively place nationalities on people from nation states that did not exist at the time the person was alive. Azerbaijan was founded in 1918, 709 years after Ganjavi's death. 4meter4 (talk) 22:55, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

he is Azerbaijani because he lived in modern Azerbaijan territory and in one of the states created on it. The article has many unclear references. Some British historians refer to which sources and claim he is Persian? At least, by citizenship/residency he was of Atabeg/Eldenizli State's. Having impact on Persian literature doesn't make him a Persian. It is not a grounded claim. Ethnicity and location of lifetime are what matters. Anyone in modern days can write in English still be not British. He never called himself Persian, he considered himself a Ganjavi person, the city that was inhabitated by Ganjavi turcomans/oghuzes following conquest of Caucasus and today's Iran by oghuz Seljugs. Gunner555 (talk) 23:07, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Gunner555 Under our policies, anyone who died before a country existed can not be described as a citizen of that country. It's that simple. Therefore, anyone who died prior to 1918 can not be described as Azerbaijani as Azjerbaijan did not exist until 1918.4meter4 (talk) 23:13, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Which policies? Did Iran exist before 1918? No, it is a new country with new name. Official name of this country was not Iran nor Persia even before. Persia was an exonym. So, stop spreading the Iranist/Persianist agenda by calling historical people Persian/Iranian who wrote in Persian or lived close to it. Nizami lived in a state that was founded in modern Azerbaijan with capital in Nakhichevan and even ruled today's Iran eventually. Gunner555 (talk) 23:23, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Iran did exist before 1918, both as a nation and ethnicity, the WP:RS listed here is a testimony to that as well (see also Name of Iran and Iranian peoples). Azeris, however, did not exist as a nation nor ethnicity until 1918. Also, I have reported you for more attacks. 4meter4 is not even Iranian as far as I know (not that it matters, you should focus on the comment, not the user). It seems that everyone who disagrees with you is pushing some Iranian/Persian agenda. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:24, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You take everything personally. We are not attacking anyone here. I am putting arguments against claims given here. There never was a country called Iran before 20th century. That was a romantic name just like Persia. Persia itself was used as an exonym mostly by western world. Please provide grounds and meaningful logic before deleting posts or reporting. How can you disrespectfully say Azeris didn't exist before 1918 as ethnicity. How could Azerbaijanis suddenly begin existing only in 1918? Azerbaijanis are oghus turks that ruled this country from 11th century and eventually ended up establishing today's country with name Azerbaijan, just like the term Iran was chosen as country's name (btw, after 1918). So, even official name Azerbaijan is older than official name of Iran. Gunner555 (talk) 23:34, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't take anything personal, you're just being disrespectful as usual. It's not illegal to open a book once in your life;

"Under the Mussavatist government, in 1918 and during the establishment of the Democratic Republic of Azerbaijan, the term “Azeri people” referred to all inhabitants while the Turkish-speaking portion was called “Azeri Turk”. Thus the concept of an Azeri identity barely appears at all before 1920 and Azerbaijan before this era had been a simple geographical area." - page 16-17 Lornejad, Siavash; Doostzadeh, Ali (2012). Arakelova, Victoria; Asatrian, Garnik (eds.). On the modern politicization of the Persian poet Nezami Ganjavi (PDF). Caucasian Centre for Iranian Studies.

"In 1918 some of these Turkish-speaking Muslims began to identify themselves as Azerbaijanis, a term which was later encouraged by the Kremlin in the nation-building efforts for the various peoples in the Soviet Union." - page 121, Bournoutian, George (2016). "Prelude to War: The Russian Siege and Storming of the Fortress of Ganjeh, 1803–4". Iranian Studies. Taylor & Francis. 50 (1): 107–124.

I could easily find more if I wanted. Not gonna bother digging into my sources regarding Iran either, cba wasting further time with you. Start with Name of Iran and Guarded Domains of Iran, they're all sourced.

Not that there are a lack of these type of sources, but the latest EI3 source (released two months ago) about Nizami Ganjavi also calls him for "Persian" [2].

Let me guess, all biased sources? --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:50, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

and besides..you go against your own words. "if you dont place nationalities on from nation states that didn't exist at the time the person was alive" - then on what grounds Nizami is called Persian in his page? He didnt live in Persia or anything related to it. He lived under Eldanizli/Atabegs State. Gunner555 (talk) 23:28, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure the description of "Persian" is being used in this context as a term of nationality, but more as a matter of language (as in English writers referring to the language and not the nation; and encompassing people from the United States, Australia, UK, etc.) But this does raise a good point about how we use the word Persian in this article, and what sort of claim it is making. I agree that it might be better to clarify the descriptor as a "Persian language writer" rather than implying a Persian ethnic or national tie. I would support modifying the text accordingly. Further, it might be best to point out that the writer has been claimed by several nations in published literature. This source claims he is an Afghani poet. This source claims his is an Azerbaijani Poet, and this book interestingly looks at how Ganjavi has become a divisive figure in relation to issues of national identity between Iran and Azerbaijan. This source is particularly illuminating about the politicization of Ganjavi in relation to his Afghani v.s. Persian identity, and the controversy surrounding the USSR's literary scholarship in the 1930s onward. All of this could be more thoroughly worked into the article in a neutral way by pointing out the conflicts between sources, and criticisms and arguments on both sides. To some extent this is already covered in the body of the article and at Campaign on granting Nizami the status of the national poet of Azerbaijan. I do think there is room for some improvements in the lead in particular. Again, wikipedia shouldn't make a definitive claim of national identity for a nation state that didn't exist at the time subject was alive, but we should present the various differences of opinion in the literature. Best.4meter4 (talk) 00:17, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

While I do agree that it can become ambiguous at times, WP:RS normally differanties between an ethnic Persian and a Persian speaker, especially nowadays. The first source is far from WP:RS, being written by an obscure figure (who I'm not even sure is a historian) who makes the ludicrous claims in his book that "Afghanistan Literature is World's greatest and richest - without Afghan- Literature no European (German, French, Spanish or English) Literature would exist today" and "For 35,000 years ancient Afghanistan was called Aryana (the Light of God) has existed." The second source is written by a historian in the Soviet Union, a country that played a leading role in the historical negationism of today's Azerbaijan, including the Azerification of Nizami [3]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:35, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You bring references from naturally biased Armenian and Iranian authors about Azerbaijanian's identity?

Please dont deviate from topic. We dont discuss Azeris/Azerbaijan of 1918. It is wellknown fact that fonders of Azerbaijan Democratic Repiblic in 1918 chose country's name Azerbaijan. It was their decision. At least, to create some sort of bonding with brotherly turks of south (modern Iran).

The bare fact is this: 1. Nizami Ganjavi lived in the territory of today's Azerbaijan Republic. Only there. 2. He never considered himself Persian, nor ethnically or geographically. He loved Ganja and called himself Ganjavian. 3. The historical state where Nizami lived was Eldanizli/Atabegs of Aran founded by Shamsaddin Eldeniz. It was independent state established in Nakhchivan after collapse of Seljug Empire. And thid State ruled today's Iran too. It was 100% turkic state of tukic ruler and dominant population of oghuz turks.

Considering all these we come to conclusion that Nizami cannot be presented as Persian neither by geography, official residency and even ethnicity.

And his references to anything Persia/Iran was purely literatural and mostly events of pre-Seljug era. These things cannot be taken as his personal origin. He merely, praised heroism of characters he wrote about, example Bahram, Farhad. Gunner555 (talk) 00:26, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"naturally biased Armenian and Iranian authors" Thanks, that's exactly what I needed. More proof of your anti-Iranian and anti-Armenian behaviour for my report. And to no surprise, you have 0 WP:RS of your own. I didn't deviate, I simply adressed your argument. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:32, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Would you stop deviating from topic and deliberatly focusing attention on minor things? I said it is natural that Armenian authors would be biased about Azerbaijan due to conflict. We dont discuss this topic. Do you have something to say about my facts and arguments about Nizami? Or will yoi continue taking it personal? Gunner555 (talk) 00:45, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Noone is anti-Iranian here. I bring arguments against unfair and ungrounded content about the topic related to Nizami. It is open platform of free-speech. Therefore, opinions of multiple minds DO matter. Gunner555 (talk) 00:48, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@ Gunner555 we have a policy of WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:NPOV. The sources here may express opinions that have a point of view that you disagree with, but that doesn't mean they are views that can or should be censored from the article. It does mean that we should work towards achieving a neutral balance when presenting that content. You have a passionate point of view on this topic, and it may be difficult for you to edit in this area and maintain neutrality. @HistoryofIran I do think some of the concerns raised by Gunner555 are valid. We could do a better job achieving balance in the article by pointing out criticisms of politicization in the literature made towards both USSR/Azjerbiajani scholars and Iranian/Armenian writers, and being more careful with how we are using the descriptor Persian in the lead. It might be best to describe him as a "12th-century Sunni Muslim poet from the city of Ganja during the time of the Seljuk Empire who was known for his contribution to Persian-language literature." This would remove the controversy over national politics/identity entirely from the opening statement. We could then precede to say something about literature prior to the 1930s describing him as a Persian writer. That in the 1930s nationalist movements in the literary writing in the USSR led to his description as an Azerbaijan poet by Russian language authors. These publications were criticized as revisionist history etc. This has led to a continuing division in the literature on Ganjavi, etc. And let the reader decide what to believe by presenting both sides as neutrally as possible. It's not our role to take sides in a literary/ political debate.4meter4 (talk) 00:52, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is no controversy nor continuing divide though, that's the thing. The vast majority of WP:RS considers Nizami to be Persian/Iranian, as already demonstrated in the article. WP:RS likewise dismisses Azerbaijan's revisionist narrative. Ultimately we should follow what WP:RS says, not change the article to satisfy the government of Azerbaijan or WP:POV editors. Speaking of the latter, I've reported Gunner555 to ANI [4]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:58, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is not even need to refer to his religious backround. In addition to your suggestion let me kindly bring a clear examole. Check page of Guiseppe Garibaldi. He is referred to as Italian. Country as Italy didnt exist back then yet. But because he functioned in modern Italy he is referred as Italian. The same way Nizami could be easily referred as Azerbaijani poet. Gunner555 (talk) 00:58, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, Seljug Empire didnt exist in Nizsmi's time. It was replaced by Eldenizli State, also knowm as Atabegs of Aran (today's Azerbaijan). It was fully independent state. Gunner555 (talk) 01:00, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That so? Giuseppe Garibaldi: "Giuseppe Maria Garibaldi (/ˌɡærɪˈbɔːldi/ GARR-ib-AWL-dee, Italian: [dʒuˈzɛppe ɡariˈbaldi] (listen);[note 1] 4 July 1807 – 2 June 1882) was an Italian general, patriot, revolutionary and republican. He contributed to Italian unification and the creation of the Kingdom of Italy." --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:01, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

HistoryofIran is very political on Wikipedia. He considers opinions about Nizami political. I did provide 3 Clear and Bare realities about Nizsmi above, on wchich he failed to comment. It is clear that HistoryofIran relies on his administrative privilages only. Gunner555 (talk) 01:04, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]