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I made a change in Historical Views: Talmud. It was written there: He [Elijah] answered him, 'This is what he said to thee, To-day, if ye will hear his voice.'

"if ye will hear his voice" is not the meaning of the sentence. It is a sentence taken from a verse in Psalms 95;7: "today if you will listen to his voice".

The true meaning of the sentence is "listen to his voice", it is also the only right translation there is.

It means to obey, to listen to what G-d says to you and do what he tells you to. Not to hear his voice.

Dear Editors who read this,

Feel this page has way too much focus not on Judaism, but its relationship with christianity. Feel Jewish aspects should be turned up whereas christian aspects should be toned down. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 02:57, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dear All,

As I see it, this page needs major overhaul. The information on this page was written by those with little understanding. See sections where it mentioned beliefs that gathering of Jews before building of third Temple. Correct order is building of temple and then gathering of Jews. With regard to those minor factual edits will be changing. With regard to more major decisions, such as removing content should probably wait a couble days before changing it.

Reason for these views is that messianism in Judaism is not well understood, even by the scholarly both secular and religious. The only text which compiled a systemic commentary on Maimonedes last two chapters which deal with Messiah and messianic era, just came out last year and is currently only available in hebrew. Maimonedes is the only authority in Jewish Law who rules on laws of Messiah and Messianic Era. The commentary is entitled "Dvar Malchus Chidushim U'Biurim Be'Hilchos Melochim Le'HoRambam Prokim 11-12" ISBN: 978-1-893855-09-0. I have been studying this for past year and have some familiarity with basic concepts. The previous writers had a general vague knowledge of some details, but lacked a systematic overview of the concept. I intend to address this in coming weeks with editing of just basic concepts such as Two periods in the Messianic era and other concepts. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 04:28, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yaakov Wa.– please support your changes with citations to reliable sources (WP:RS) – the content you added about, "enabling the Jewish people to observe all 613 commandments" is not supported by either of the sources cited – content without citations counts as original research, see WP:NOR – "Even if you are sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it" per WP:VERIFY – cheers, Epinoia (talk) 04:43, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Epinoia,

Check Maimonides Hilchos Melachim 11:1 Where it states "Then in his days all the statutes will return to their previous state... according to all their particulars as described by the Torah". Translation from Moznaim/ Eliyahu Tougar. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 05:29, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dear All,

I propose we revamp article according to this format.

1. Brief description of Jewish Messiah.

2.Role of Messiah in Judaism.

2.1 Restoring Judaism's (613) commandments
2.2 Qualifications for Messiah
 2.2.1 Qualifications for Presumptive Messiah
 2.2.2 Qualifications for Definite Messiah.
 2.2.3 Disqualification factors for (Presumptive?) Messiah.
2.3 Messiah's effect on World.
 2.3.1 Effect on Jews
 2.3.2 Effect on non-Jews
 2.3.3 Effect on physical world

3. How does Messiah come/ Two-Eras of Messiah/ Two periods in Messianic Era (Not yet finalized exact wording)

3.1 Non-Meritorious State-by Year 6000
3.2 Meritorious state.

4. Importance of Messiah in Judaism

5. Mashiach Ben David vs. Mashiach Ben Yosef (Joseph?),

6. Etymology.

7. Put in history of Messiah according to Jewish biblical sources. (This is Messiah in Judaism, will have separate section for christianity).

8. Judaic Messianism and christianity

8.1 all the christian stuff
8.2 Judaism's rejection of Jesus as Messiah. 

9. Contemporary Jewish Views era).

9.1 Orthodox
 9.1.1 Hassidic/Chabad
 9.1.2 Non-Hasidic/Litvak.
9.2 Non-Orthodox
 9.2.1 Reform
 9.2.2 Conservative

10. See also

11. Notes

12. References

13. Sources

14. Further Readings

15. External Links

Please comment on any suggestions to this proposed structure.

Blessings,

Yaakov W.

p.s. If no comments by 2/23/21, will start overhaul process.

– there should be a "See also" section before Notes – cheers, Epinoia (talk) 14:44, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Epinoia,

Done Yaakov Wa. (talk) 15:11, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding your suggested section 2 above, especially "2.1 Restoring Judaism's 613 commandments" - what is your Reliable Source for this initial statement, before anything else? Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 19:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Warshy,

The source is Maimonedes Hilchos Melachim chapter 11:1. Where it states (translation from Moznaim/ Eliyahu Tougar) "In the future, the Messianic King will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will build the Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel. Then, in his days, [the observance of] all the statutes will return to their previous state. We will offer sacrifices, observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee year according to all their particulars as described by the Torah".

Blessings,

Yaakov W.

p.s. Take a look at this article where it briefly goes over this concept. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1122357/jewish/Resumption-of-Suspended-Mitzvot.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaakov Wa. (talk • contribs) 19:24, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I had a suspicion you may be coming from Chabad sources, which for me are biased sources to begin with. As for the suggested "613 commandments" to begin with, Maimonides does not refer to them in this manner. The proper way to use Maimonides (which should be in the article, no doubt about that) is to directly quote Maimonides giving his complete description of the Messianic age in translation, precisely as you have done above. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 19:31, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Warshy,

Appreciate comment, however, when one looks at the hebrew term used in Maimonedes (All their particulars as described by the Torah ככל מצותה האמורה בתורה). It is a clear reference to the 613 commandments. See also Maimonedes Hilchos Melachim Chapter 11:3 "The main thrust of the matter is: This Torah, its statutes and its laws, are everlasting. We may not add to them or detract from them. Anyone who adds or detracts or who reveals false interpretations of the Torah to imply that the mitzvot are not to be understood simply is surely wicked and a non-believer." (Translation from Tougar, with uncensored portion from Yemenite manuscript added).

Blessings,

Yaakov W.

p.s. Regarding naming of section, could be renamed to "Restoring Commandments" or something along those lines. I want suggestions.

 Yaakov Wa. (talk) 19:59, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For ease of reading of the section/discussion you should indent your replies using the ":" colon before you start your reply. For signing your posts all you have to do is to type four tildes "~" in a row, and the Wikipedia platform will automatically sign them for you. As for your suggested overhaul, my suggestion is to work in small increments, step by step, so it is easier for other editors to accept or reject your changes. I.e., instead of a big plan of a complete overhaul of the article, I'd prefer you try to work in small changes and increments. Note that nowhere Maimonides himself uses the number "613" for his definition of the commandments of the Torah. That number is found in a later rabbinical source, that does not necessarily need to be referred to here, where Maimonides own words should be used directly instead. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 20:27, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Warshy,

In regards to your suggestion about colon, appreciate you taking time to teach this to me.

In regards to suggested overhaul, your suggestion noted that you prefer smaller changes. Also, will see what other editors say before 2/23.

In regards to number 613 commandments, Maimonedes himself mentions in his Introduction to the Mishneh Torah (of which Hilchos Melachim is the conclusion), that "The number of Mitzvot which are incumbent on us at all times is 613. Of them, 248 are positive commandments; an allusion to their [number], the number of limbs in the human body. 365 are negative commandments (prohibitions); an allusion to their [number], the number of days in a solar year." (Translation from Tougar).

However, there may be justification to say restoring commandments instead of saying 613. Keep up your feedback Warshy!

Blessings,

Yaakov W. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 20:51, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just want to state my support for this project and gratitude. The article has indisputably been from a Christian frame of reference, and I welcome a corrective for this. newmila (talk) 01:54, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dear all (Especially speaking to frequent editors (in no particular order): Epinoia, Joshua Jonathan, Tgeorgescu, Warshy, Editor2020, 2600:8805:9200:11c0:d00a:2689:49bc:cddf.),

Since I am looking to do a major overhaul of this article in a couple of days there are a couple of points I want to be clear about.

1. I am not very knowledgeable about how to cite stuff. Meaning that when I do start to revamp sections there will probably be a lot of statements without sources yet, although not OR. Can you please ask me for the source in the talk section and I will provide it within approximately 24 hours (except for Shabbos and Jewish Holidays)? Along these lines, is it possible that you can help out be putting in the sources/references into wikipedia? It will be a enormous undertaking which I don't have the time to effectively accomplish yet.

2. Regards to how we are going to revamp the article: There are two ways which I have thought of so far.

2.1 We can blank out whole article and start adding section by section in. Advantages: We get cleaner and more organized info in. Disadvantages, a lot of info is concealed for time being.
2.2 We can start adding in sections and slowly replacing it. Advantage: It has info. Disadvantage: Will be extremely disorganized and messy. 

I am personally leaning towards option 1. Please give any feedback or suggestions as to how you believe the best process going forward is. I predict this overhaul will take about 1 month of work.

Blessings,

Yaakov W. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 18:44, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

– it would be best if you added citations as you went along – unsourced material may be regarded as WP:OR or WP:SYNTH and be removed – for help in citing sources see Wikipedia:Citing sources – please DO NOT add unsourced content to articles as it makes more work for everyone – it would be a good idea if you took some time to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia guidelines and took some time to learn how to edit before undertaking the major revision of an article, there have already been a few warnings on your User Talk page – take care, Epinoia (talk) 21:31, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Watchlonly,

Regarding the placement of Etymology, I would like to understand your reasoning for placing etymology first. I believe it should go later, but first I want to hear your perspective because I believe you have some legitimate points that I will be addressing.

Blessings,

Yaakov W. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 20:42, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Since Watchlonly got banned, I don't believe he will be replying to this.

The reason why I believe that etymology should be placed later rather than directly after lead in this case. Because, the idea is to explain the concept of Messiah. Although most scenarios where there is an etymology, it introduces an explanation for the term. In this case, it does not really define what Messiah in Judaism is. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 00:47, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If no response/rebuttal by end of week, will place etymology after main concepts. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 18:24, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am currently working or re-working the Etymology section, since with all the strictly religious Chabad stuff that was lately added to the page all the reliable scholarly sources/references that were there are currently lost. In an Encyclopedic entry in a non-religious Encyclopedia such as Wikipedia, the Etymology section has to be the first section, since it explains the linguistic origins of the word/term, and how it developed in the Hebrew Bible. All the strictly religious stuff that is being introduced here comes only form Maimonides, not before. And after/since Maimonides (please learn how to spell his name correctly in English, and please correct all the places where you have currently misspelled his name in this article), the only source used by this religious editor is the deceased Rebbe of Chabad, who is not a scholarly/academic reliable source for a non-religious Encyclopedia such as Wikipedia. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 18:49, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. In my reworking of the Etymology section I will be primarily using the entry Messiah in the Jewish Encyclopedia, and also the paralled entry in the Encyclopaedia Judaica. warshy ^(¥¥) 18:53, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The opening sentence of the current section on the so-called "Restoring of Commandments" states:

Currently, many of the 613 commandments cannot be done until the restoration of the Temple in Jerusalem and the universal resettlement of the Jewish people in the Land of Israel.

The entire stress of this co-called Chabad Lubavitch "Orthodox" religious "overhaul" of this page is on this matter, as if this is central role of the so-called "Messiah" in Orthodox Judaism. But this is really a red herring. That's because 365 of the so-called "613" commandments (more than half of all the so-called "613"!) are "negative" commandments (lo-ta'aseh), i.e., they are rather prohibitions, or religious enjoinments for the person not-to-do a certain act. Many of these negative commandments or religious precepts only refer to the land of Israel or to the temple. I.e., if the people are not living in the land and are rather in exile (galut), then they don't have to be dealt with at all. Now, with the return today of a considerable number of Jews to the supposed ancient land, the question really regards only a few very specific negative commandments that refer specifically to acts that are done in the temple, if it exists. I.e., just the return of the people from exile to the land itself is not enough anymore. In order for all these presumptive negative commandments to be even considered or thought of, the temple itself must be in existence and operating (with sacrifices, for example, etc.). So now, for these believing Jews, the temple must be rebuilt in Jerusalem and become operative. However, the temple cannot be rebuilt by simple people, or the secular political decision of a state's authority or government. The rebuilding of the temple is really the central task of this so-called "Messiah." So again, the real task, and the stress of this page, of the "Messiah in Judaism" should be the ingathering of the exiles, and the rebuilding of the temple. All the other specific questions about specific commandments are really secondary, and dependend on the first two initial roles and tasks. So this entire supposed "re-writing" of this article from a Chabad religious messianistic perspective is really a complete obfuscation of the purpose of messianism in the Jewish religion. The real question here is why is this red herring, this obfuscation being perpetrated here now in the English Wikipedia, before our very eyes? warshy ^(¥¥) 17:54, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]