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Section = 109 BLP articles labelled "Climate Change Deniers" all at once. Template:BLP noticeboard Peter Gulutzan (talk) 18:49, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Eeyoresdream is deleting a substantial amount of content without any discussions. I have restored a few of these deletions, as these are properly sourced and required for NPOV. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:39, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Objections have been raised about the reliability of the source used for the claims regarding Rubio's involvement with spending and regarding the undue nature of the content regarding Rubio's use of a GOP credit card. I agree that that's an excessive amount of content for an issue that was investigated and resolved without blame assigned.CFredkin (talk) 19:02, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Many issues in a politician's live are resolved "without blame assigned", and yet these are relevant issues in a bio. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:21, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. But whether this issue should be mentioned is not in dispute. What's in dispute is how much content should be included on that subject. The argument is that, based on how the issue was resolved, the amount of content you're adding is excessive.CFredkin (talk) 20:41, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Excessive? See for example Tony_Rezko#Real_estate_dealings. And Rezko is not running for president. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:09, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Great analogy. But I think the more important question is how much of the Rezko material appears in Obama's bio? The answer is one sentence: "The purchase of an adjacent lot—and sale of part of it to Obama by the wife of developer, campaign donor and friend Tony Rezko—attracted media attention because of Rezko's subsequent indictment and conviction on political corruption charges that were unrelated to Obama."CFredkin (talk) 21:55, 5 November 2015 (UTC) There's no discussion about the fact that Obama was able to buy the lot for a below-market price, etc.CFredkin (talk) 21:57, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

???? How is that relevant? The house mortgage issue or the credit card issue in his article can't be presented in any other article. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:59, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand your point...CFredkin (talk) 22:01, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My point is that if the Rezko land deal only merits one sentence in Obama's bio (and doesn't even mention the salient issue of the purchase price of the land), how do you justify including 8 sentences on Rubio's credit card situation (when there's currently 3)?CFredkin (talk) 22:23, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Section tagged as not NPOV. The material is not UNDUE, for a politician running for President. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:23, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This talk page section does not identify any particular material. Which material is of most concern? The credit card stuff?Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:40, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello?Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:59, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1. The Tampa Bay Times/Miami Herald analysis
2. The credit cards issue
3. The foreclosure of the house in Tallahassee due to missed mortgage payments
4. The eminent domain legislation paragraphs

This is the diff [1] - Cwobeel (talk) 20:35, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Professor JR POV tags are there for a reason. Please join in the discussion. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:42, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Cwobeel. I would add that the wholesale deletions here totally lack any legitimate policy-based reasons. I'll take the paragraphs in order.

1. - This is based on a Tampa Bay Times/Miami Herald budget analysis from 2000 to 2008 (Rubio's years in the Legislature). It is highly relevant to understanding a long stretch of his political career. The supposed objection to the "source" of the material is frivolous. Nevertheless, as a compromise, I propose: restoring the material, with an additional mention that the source of the documents was the Florida Office of Policy and Budget.
2. - The credit card material - a big improvement over the very weak, and in some cases inaccurate, summary before. The weak earlier version is terrible includes "questioned" is terrible because there was no evidence that Rubio was questioned. The older version also gives no sense at all of timeline (i.e., when Rubio had the card). It also relies entirely on 2010 and 2012 articles, while the improved version relies on high-quality articles that are more recent (2015). The old version refers generically to a "Republican Party" card, while the new version specifies that it is a Republican Party of Florida card. Most disturbingly, the old version omits the fact Rubio was cleared, but was faulted by an investigator for a level of negligence. In sum, the new version was far superior, and explains - more precisely and using high-quality sources - a major event in Rubio's political life.
3. - The foreclosure material, likewise, was perfectly fine, and a huge improvement over the frankly bad summary given before. The truncated version is devoid of all context whatsoever. It does not explain that Rubio and Riviera were friends. It totally lacks any sense of timeline (such as when they bought the house and when the missed payments). The improved version adds this context and perspective on an important incident that got substantial coverage in 2010 through the present. It complete, if brief, explanation of what happened. No editor has put forth any explanation of why such material is "undue" or improper. Only ipse dixit assertions have been made. Simply not acceptable. The objectors need to explain what specific details they would omit, and why.
4. - The eminent domain paragraphs - unquestionably, my edits to this were a significant improvement. No editor has ever explained the basis for their objections, and I can't think of a single one. The truncated version was inaccurate: it called the committee a "special committee" when it fact it was a select committee. The truncated version omitted the date (2005), the name of the person who appointed Rubio (Allan Bense), the official name of the committee. The new version adds all these details, while adding high-quality sources. (The truncated version also cited only to the National Review). The reflexive reversion back is totally unjustifiable. It boggles the mind, and I am pretty sure any fair-minded, third-party editor would agree.

In sum, these wholesale deletions lack any real basis. If people want to talk about specific points of disagreement, then that's great. But vague assertions are not. Neutrality^talk 22:57, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1. The article referenced is based entirely on documents from Crist's office which were released after they were campaigning against each other. That's not a reliable source.CFredkin (talk) 23:14, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
2. The edits in question were outrageously excessive and undue. As mentioned above, for comparison, the Rezko land deal gets one sentence in Obama's bio (and doesn't even mention the purchase price of the land, which was the reason it got attention). The issue doesn't need 8 sentences when it currently has 3 already.CFredkin (talk) 23:14, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
3. Also ridiculously excessive and undue. The comments about Rubio and Rivera both being rising stars and living together previously, the original purchase price of the house, and the commentary from Kurtz and regarding other families is completely superfluous.
4. I'm less certain about why these edits were reverted. The edit comment referenced tightening of the text....CFredkin (talk) 23:14, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality and/or Cwobeel, are these four items ordered according to how big of a problem you see? If not, could you please say which of the four you consider to be the biggest problem? I would like to focus on the biggest issue first, get it resolved, and then move on to the next one. Thanks.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:27, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, speaking for myself, I think the omission of the Herald/Times reporting (#1) on 2007-08 budget issues is outrageous. I also think it can be easily resolved if we all agreed to just add a few words noting that the budget info came from a state office. I also think it is misleading in the extreme to note that Rubio was cleared in the credit card ethics commission complaint without also noting the ethics commission advocate's determination that there was negligence (widely reported by CNN, Tampa Bay Times, and even Bill O'Reilly (!)). When we fail to mention that, it seems like we are soft-peddling.

I consider #4 the least important, but the easiest to resolve. In the interests of narrowing the range of items under discussion, do you object to restoring those changes? Neutrality^talk 03:09, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the reply. I will reciprocate soon, but want to just finish up with some edits incorporating info from the National Journal article by Mishak.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:26, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As stated above, #1 is ultimately sourced to an unofficial list created by the office of Rubio's political enemy (Crist) which apparently wasn't even mentioned by Crist's office until they started campaigning against each other. In addition, the source says the list linked spending items with lawmakers based on conversations Crist's staff had with legislative staffers and lawmakers. (You've got to be kidding me!) It's an xls file, which doesn't appear to even have been made publicly available. Also, it's contradicted by the official CIBR process which was referenced immediately before this in this article (and still exists in the article). Florida TaxWatch releases the official "turkey list" for spending in Florida. Rubio's spokesperson claimed that Crist's list was not supported by Florida TaxWatch. Finally, I can't find any other sources that reference this information. It's not reliable. On the other hand, personally I don't have a problem with restoring #4.CFredkin (talk) 04:30, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As to #1, before responding, I'm curious whether User:Neutrality finds this explanation by User:CFredkin persuasive or not. In other words, if I can wiggle out of investigating this matter and forming an opinion about it. that's my preference.  :-) As to #1 though #4, I'm curious whether User:Cwobeel ranks them the same way User:Neutrality does.Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:31, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I find it a completely unpersuasive argument. The documents were kept year to year, by a budget office from 2000-08. The office appears to be part of the executive branch (much like the OMB is on the federal level), but the idea that Crist himself simply made up the numbers in 2010 is simply absurd. Bottom line: the Times/Herald found them enough to report on. The two newspapers are unquestionably reliable sources. The source deals with an important event in Rubio's political career. We have zero business not including it.

To the extent that the fact that this came from a budget office is significant, I would be fine with saying that this came "from the Crist administration's budget office." I think it's unnecessary to say, but I am offering it as a compromise so we can all move forward.

I'd also note that much or all of the content is repeated in other independent sources (which I didn't, but I could've put in). For example, the Turnpike thing is also supported in another Tampa Bay Times article. Neutrality^talk 05:56, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear....The source provided is an article written by a reporter who appears to be associated with the Miami Herald. However, the article itself was published by the Tampa Bay Times. I've seen no evidence that an article was also published by the Miami Herald. Also, the blog post cited in the last post (and the lengthier article it links to) talks about Rubio pushing for language to allow split bidding for the contract for the project, which would potentially have allowed a firm run by a friend to bid for it. It says nothing regarding Rubio being involved with obtaining funding for the project itself.CFredkin (talk) 06:29, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I don't agree that an xls file created by a budget office for what appears to be its internal use, and which they did not publish publicly is necessarily reliable.CFredkin (talk) 06:35, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Finally it would be great if you addressed the specific points I raised above regarding how the file was created and the fact that it was contradicted by other sources, instead of making unfounded claims. I never stated that the numbers were made up by Crist himself.CFredkin (talk) 06:41, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First - "The Tampa Bay Times and Miami Herald merged Tallahassee bureaus in 2008, creating a six-person team where assignments are divided evenly and each newspaper publishes work of the combined staff." See here. So this was published in both newspapers and is properly credited to both (the ideal cite is probably: "Tampa Bay Times/Miami Herald Tallahassee Bureau").

Second - No, the report is not "contradicted by other sources." The state budget office and Florida TaxWatch have different lists, presumably because they have different criteria. It seems that the budget office's list was of all hometown projects, while the TaxWatch list is more narrow and lists projects they view as unwise ("turkeys"). That's not a contradiction, merely a different document. (You wrote above that "the official 'turkey list'" is maintained by TaxWatch - Not so. TaxWatch maintains a list, but it is not an "official list"; the group is an advocacy group, not a government agency).

If you think the source has limitations, fine - as I've said, we can express the limitations stated in the source itself (i.e., that the list is generated from the budget office). But to say, "we, as Wikipedia, don't think this source is reliable, notwithstanding the fact that two respected newspapers relied upon it for a news analysis," - I don't think that is a fair way to look at it.

(By the way, even if we were to play the role of newspaper editor in assessing reliability (which we should not): the fact that a document is internal would seem to enhance its reliability, no? If these documents were internal, then that implies that they were not cooked up for external election-season consumption down the line.) Neutrality^talk 07:02, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop saying that this content was published by 2 newspapers until you provide 2 links to articles supporting that statement. The 2 newspapers may share staff in some cases, but only 1 newspaper appears to have published this article.CFredkin (talk) 07:24, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Our role as encyclopedia editors absolutely includes assessing the reliability of sources. And this is a WP:BLP, which means we need to hold the sourcing for content to the highest standards.CFredkin (talk) 07:24, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The following factors argue strongly against the reliability of the source in this case:

1. The source for this "unofficial" list is informal discussions between budget staff and legislative staff and legislators.
2. This unofficial list is contradicted by the official list of budget requests (CIBR's).
3. The unofficial list has never been published externally, but appears only to have even been mentioned and shown to a reporter offline during a campaign between Crist and Rubio. It implies that the staff are unwilling to stand behind it and have it be scrutinized. That doesn't enhance the reliability of the list. It detracts from it.
4. The unofficial list is called an "unofficial" list in the article. Why would we publish information from an "unofficial" list in a BLP?CFredkin (talk) 07:24, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First: Both the Herald and the Times both published the identical piece (as literally 30 seconds of research would reveal).

Second: There is no question whatsoever that the Herald and the Times are respected sources. All arguments to the contrary are strained at best. Also, reporters routinely report on non-public documents, including government documents, drafts, etc. and use information from confidential sources. That is absolutely typical, as a quick glance at any given day's Washington Post would reveal. Your approach seems would seemingly presume that reporters are credulous and don't do fact-checking. That is, happily, not the case. The whole point of journalism is that professional editors act as a filter.

If you want to submit to the reliable sources noticeboard, go ahead. Neutrality^talk 07:41, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You're absolutely right... in fact we should just rely on bots to create and update Wikipedia articles based on published newspaper content. No judgement required.CFredkin (talk) 07:59, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The snide remark doesn't impress me. Nor does it further the conversation. I am done for the evening. Good night. --Neutrality^talk 08:11, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Whereas your snide remarks above have really elevated the tone of the discussion....CFredkin (talk) 08:19, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Life is too short for this. Let us find some actual way to break this impasse. Neutrality^talk 23:04, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. In the spirit of getting past this issue, I'd like to propose the following text:

A Tampa Bay Times/Miami Herald analysis of a budget list maintained by Crist's Office of Policy & Budget from 2000 to 2008 indicated that Rubio helped push about $250 million in hometown spending for projects, some of which was co-sponsored with other representatives. The list was compiled by the governor's staff during the budget process based on conversations with legislators and their staffs and was not published publicly.CFredkin (talk) 23:35, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

That is a start, but does not include some necessary information. I've posted my alternate proposal below. Neutrality^talk 06:26, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My first impression is that the Times/Herald piece falls under the heading of "reliable source" and so their statements of fact are entitled to our respect. But I also think we ought to take into account other sources on the same subject, such as this one in the Orlando Sentinel, and perhaps others. I want to make sure we're not talking about a situation like "Rubio voted to fund highways that he himself has driven on". We need to be clear about why this was or was not such a situation. Here's a quote from the Sentinel piece: "'I didn't push any of them,' Rubio said Tuesday, when told of Miami-Dade's lengthy list. 'I quite frankly am not familiar with most of them.' He also noted that many of the earmarks criticized by TaxWatch are for health and social programs, or as Rubio put it, 'the kind of thing that legislators would get attacked on if we didn't fund them.'" Do any of these reports contradict what Rubio was saying here? It's not clear to me. I want to work on this some more later today, so we get it right.Anythingyouwant (talk) 08:36, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Generally speaking, I would be more comfortable using content based on information published publicly with stated critera by an independent organization, which I think would include TaxWatch. However, my concern about the Orlando Sentinel article (& TaxWatch in general) is that, after looking at it more closely, TaxWatch doesn't actually link spending to legislators. It only links spending to counties that benefit from it. So we can use it to determine whether Rubio's county received funding, but not whether he was involved in securing the funding.CFredkin (talk) 20:14, 6 November 2015 (UTC) I believe this is indicated in the Orlando Sentinel article itself, as well as by documents published by TaxWatch.[reply]

Anythingyouwant: I would be OK with including the Times/Herald piece alongside the Orlando Sentinel (alongwide any limitations of the sources, as noted in the sources themselves). I generally think statistical/budget info that relies on government sources is preferable to reliance on third-party activist groups (such as TaxWatch), but I would not object to inclusion of both, if it would break the impasse. The whole thing, I think, can likely be dealt with in a few sentences. Do you have proposed language? Neutrality^talk 23:04, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have proposed language quite yet,but I note that earmarks are currently covered as follows in the Wikipedia article:

So it looks like this is the material that we are trying to improve. I am fine with citing both of the newspaper articles in question, so that readers can easily get further info, but I'm unsure what material from those articles should be added to the current material, and what parts of the current material are unnecessary. I see that CFredkin has proposed the following language:

I have several problems with this. First, do we have any analysis available to us about which parts of the $250 million were bs, versus which parts were legitimate health and social programs? Also, the word "hometown" that CFredkin uses is rather vague. Does it refer just to West Miami where Rubio lived, or did it also include the hometowns of the co-sponsoring legislators? Or was the word "hometown" used loosely to encompass Rubio's entire county (Miami-Dade)? And was there some "homteown spending" that the reporters did not classify as a "turkey"? The whole matter is kind of puzzling to me, and I think we may need more sources to sort it out here at the talk page.Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:34, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break

Disputed Items

1.The Tampa Bay Times/Miami Herald analysis Done

2.The credit cards issue Done

3.The foreclosure of the house in Tallahassee due to missed mortgage payments Done

4.The eminent domain legislation paragraphs Done

Okay, I suggest that we replace the paragraph on earmarks with the following:

[1]Sharockman, Aaron. "Marco Rubio wasn't always against earmarks, Florida Democrat claims", PolitiFact (November 16, 2010).

[2]Roig-Franzia, Manuel. The Rise of Marco Rubio, p. 106-107 (Simon & Schuster 2012).

[3]Caputo, Marc. "Rubio's campaign image belies history of $250 million in pork requests", Miami Herald (March 9, 2010).

[4]Kennedy, John. "Governor could ax these turkeys", Orlando Sentinel (May 23, 2007).

Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:51, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would support the following text (immediately following the current Community Budget Issue Requests text, which I would leave alone), with the appropriate citations:

This text is, I think, fair. It accurately attributes and quotes the "dovetailed" language to the Times/Herald (avoiding the use of our own voice), and hews closely to the sources. It notes that the hospital funding was co-sponsored by all Miami-Dade legislators, while also forthrightly acknowledging the convergence of interests. I avoid entirely any reference to "turkeys" - I think it takes too long to explain, it's pretty subjective, and doesn't really help the reader all that much.

If it were me writing this article alone, I would note, as the Times/Herald does, that the teaching contract was $69,000 and that the hospital consulting contract was $8,000 month. But because I don't think you'd like that, my proposed language omits this in the interests of resolving the issue and moving forward. Neutrality^talk 06:26, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a version that blends elements of all 3 proposals:

This proposal is based on the following:

• I've removed "many" from the first sentence as subjective and "turkey" from the second sentence as Neutrality suggested (and also because it's an informal name applied to list by the governor's staff).
• If we're going to mention the list by the governor's office, then I think we have to mention the implication for Rubio. However, I've added a reference to Miami-Dade County to address Anythingyouwant's concern regarding what "hometown" means.
• I've previously stated my own concerns about including any of the information from the list by the governor's office. If we are going to include it, then I think we need to include the context for how the list is prepared.
• I included the assertion by the TBT/MH that "Rubio's spending requests dovetailed with his personal interests". Personally, I have significant concerns about this because there's been no evidence that personal interests played a role in Rubio's spending requests (This same argument has been used to block any reference to contributions to the Clinton Foundation by parties with business before the State Department when Hillary was Secretary of State in her bio.) However, since both Anythingyouwant and Neutrality included it in their proposals, I've included it in this one.
• I included the reference to the spending item for the hospital since it was the only spending item mentioned in both the TBT/MH and Orlando Sentinel articles.

This is a good faith proposal. As I've stated above, I'm making it despite my own concerns about some of the content it includes. However, I'm reserving the right to change my stance on the content if there's further debate about it.CFredkin (talk) 08:37, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The existing material on earmarks can easily be shortened, and doing so helps to avoid this whole financial stuff becoming excessively long. Keep in mind that both Politifact and Roig-Franzia put Rubio's pork requests at $145 million, and so that conflicts somewhat with Crist's list ($250 million) and with Florida-Taxwatch's list, so we have to phrase this carefully to not say or imply that Politifact and Roig-Franzia are wrong about it. I don't care whether the term "turkey list" is used, so I have struck it out in my draft above. As a chronological matter, the present earmark paragraph is in the section on his tenure as state legislator before he was speaker, because most of his earmarks were in 2001 and 2002, and the earmarks allegedly stopped thereafter according to Politifact and Roig-Franzia. But Crist was not governor until much later, and that's why I kept his name out of it. Moreover, Crist's list was not the only list, so I don't see why it deserves special attention. As CFredkin says, the money for the hospital is a good example because it was on both Crist's list and Florida Taxwatch's list, so we need to have a reference for the Orlando Sentinel. I also like giving one example only because it's more concise and allows us to give a bit more detail about that example, instead of giving a more superficial list. I have no objection to striking out the word "many" as subjective, so I've done it. I think it's important to end up the material by saying something about his general attitude toward spending (i.e. fiscally conservative), because otherwise this earmark material is undue weight and misses the big picture.Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:25, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Anythingyouwant You make good points. My only reservations regarding your current proposal are:

• I don't think we should use the term "unwanted", as I haven't seen any sources to support that.
• Technically TaxWatch's list provides no indication of which legislators are responsible for the spending they list. It only shows the counties that benefited from it.
• I think we should add "including Rubio", so the sentence doesn't appear to be a non sequitur.

Consequently I would propose the following modified sentence in your proposal:

Additionally, an office in the executive branch compiled a longer list of spending requests by legislators, including Rubio[3].CFredkin (talk) 19:01, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I amended the paragraph that I proposed, per this suggestion. Thanks.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:48, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't done a detailed look at this latest proposal yet, but my two immediate reactions:

• I do not want to use the word "asserted" (see WP:CLAIM - directing us to avoid synonyms for "said")
• On the FIU material: The teaching gig has gotten a lot of attention (over a series of years), and we simply cannot ignore it. There are a number of sources that discuss it, and also mention the controversy about it. For example:
  • "Long Professor Rubio (longish Politico article by Marc Caputo in February 2015) ("Rubio began lecturing at FIU after term limits forced him in 2009 from the Florida House, where he served as speaker for two years. Because Rubio had helped steer money to the school, his teaching gig was controversial at first. Also, the idea of a teaching job for a pol rubbed some professors the wrong way in an era of budget cuts. But Democrats have since stopped criticizing the senator’s teaching arrangement...");
  • At Florida International University, GOP rising star Sen. Marco Rubio is professor Rubio (Tampa Bay Times article from April 2012) ("Rubio began teaching at FIU after leaving the Florida Legislature in 2008. (He has a law degree from the University of Miami, but no master's.) The soft landing raised questions, not least over state funding he helped the school secure. The president of FIU's faculty senate complained that Rubio was hired while programs were being cut and 200 jobs eliminated. Charlie Crist tried to make it an issue in their 2010 U.S. Senate race and Democrats made noise last year when Rubio rejoined the FIU faculty with clearance from the Senate. He makes $24,000 teaching four courses.");
  • Billionaire Lifts Marco Rubio, Politically and Personally (New York Times, May 2015) ("Later that year, when Mr. Rubio left state government, determined to shore up his finances before running for the United States Senate, he landed a teaching job at Florida International University, agreeing to raise much of his salary through private donations. Mr. Braman gave $100,000, according to records he shared with The New York Times. Dario Moreno, who oversaw the university center where Mr. Rubio worked and who taught classes with him, confirmed that Mr. Rubio had raised the money from Mr. Braman."
  • Senate run puts Rubio's ties to FIU under fiscal scrutiny (Times/Herald, December 2009).

I'm not firm on having the FIU material in the Legislature section specifically; I would be willing to put it in a different section or subsection, which may be better since the teaching job happened after he left the Legislature. But the topic should be in this article, as the sources dictate. Neutrality^talk 20:00, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I'll look this stuff over, and reply soon. I take it that the charge (which "Democrats have since stopped" making) was that the money for the university did not benefit Rubio much financially ($24,000 per year) but did benefit him by increasing the odds he would be hired.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:03, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sort of but not quite. The sources indicate that this was one of a number of controversies over Florida universities hiring politicians, see here: "It illuminates the sway a handful of top elected officials have over taxpayer money and reflects a state college and university system that has become a friendly employment service for lawmakers who once oversaw their budgets...The 38-year-old lawyer and first Cuban-American to lead the Florida House is among about 20 current and former legislators who have found work at Florida's colleges and universities, a growing source of friction as budget resources dwindle."

I may come up with language, unless someone else wants a crack at it. Neutrality^talk 23:52, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to take a crack at it. There is already a sentence under his Senate tenure that says "Rubio has also taught a political science course at Florida International University while serving as a U.S. Senator.[84] The class met on Mondays and Fridays, when the Senate was not in session.[84]" I think that would be the appropriate spot to mention controversy about it, rather than in the state legislature section, because he did not teach when he was a state legislator, and because it's best to keep the teaching stuff consolidated together for readability. Okay so far?Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:59, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Rubio has taught at FIU both before and after the U.S. Senate, so we should probably move the text to a different (or a new) section or subsection. (He starting teaching in 2009, after leaving the Legislature, but did not become a senator until 2011 - our article as it is now implies that he only started teaching after he became a senator, which is misleading).

I do agree, of course, that we should keep the teaching materials consolidated. Neutrality^talk 00:06, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I'll give it a go tomorrow.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:32, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have just made some edits that I hope might enable us to put a check mark next to the first "Disputed item": The Tampa Bay Times/Miami Herald analysis.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:43, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your adds on the professorship. It looks very good. I have made some edits, which are fairly modest and preserve the vast majority of what you had written.

(I added a missing ref URL, swapped the order of two paragraphs, added a specific reference to the faculty senate chair, added a brief list of the courses taught, added a note that the position wasn't advertised (which goes to the controversy), noted the official name of the school (it's apparently the "Steven J. Green School of International and Public Affairs" now), and shortened the quotations from the FIU director. I also took out some material on Rubio's teaching style that I thought was pretty standard (I don't think we needed the bit on Rubio "talking continuously without notes, posing questions to students, amusing them with humor" since that is what many professors do).

Let me know if this looks good. Neutrality^talk 04:11, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Politico reports that, "Democrats have since stopped criticizing the senator’s teaching arrangement...." Why remove that? I also disagree with switching the paragraphs, because it seems best to describe his professorship as a professorship before detouring into political objections that have since been abandoned, and otherwise we give undue weight to the controversy. Even if the political objections had not been abandoned, it still seems best to cover the professorship itself first, because the reporting makes clear that any controversy here was actually very narrow: it was about how fast Rubio got the state benefits delivered to FIU rather than whether FIU would get those benefits in the first place. A smaller objection is that I liked including Rubio's stated motivation: to teach students what's really going on behind the news. Overall, I think we need to be very careful not to let what may be a faux or obsolete controversy drown out a rather long and continuing career in higher education.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:26, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A fair point. I'll take them in order: (1) I wanted to avoided excessive quoting, since the article is already fairly quote-heavy, so I changed the quote to a paraphrase: it now says "criticism of the teaching arrangement has diminished with time..." Same thing, different wording; (2) the change of order was for two reasons: first, it's chronological (the controversy happened as soon as he was hired, so it makes sense to describe it there) and secondly, it's reflective of importance (the wider reaction is probably more important than his teaching style). We do cover the professorship itself before the controversy, in that we say that in 2010, he started teaching at FIU as an adjunct. So the very first sentence doesn't mention the controversy at all, and quite properly so.

On the stated motivation: I thought it was sort of boilerplate, if you really like it, and if it would help us get to a consensus, I can live with it going back in. Neutrality^talk 05:01, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Paraphrasing may be okay if the paraphrase is accurate. Politico reports that, "Democrats have since stopped criticizing the senator’s teaching arrangement...." This is not accurately paraphrased by "criticism of the teaching arrangement has diminished with time...". Please try again. Perhaps something like "Democrats no longer criticize the teaching arrangement". Again, I point out that the controversy has boiled down to the speed with which FIU received state aid that they were always going to receive, so it seems quite understandable that political opponents would look for other flaws in Rubio. Let's not give this undue weight.

On the stated motivation, thanks.Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:09, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(1) The Politico article is only one formulation. There are other formulations, too, and most of them neither say "stopped" or reference Democrats in particular: St. Pete Times ("controversial at the time..."); NBC Miami ("faced some criticism at the time"). There's also some recent pieces which suggest that it's still controversial, e.g., Miami New Times ("There's the controversial job he snagged at FIU"). If you are really attached to the Politico formulation, I might be OK with it depending on what the rest of the section looks like, but I tend to think it's not the best formulation (which is one of the reasons I paraphrased). I'm also reluctant to frame anything in definitive terms, since in campaign season there are new historical things constantly being resurrected about the candidates.

(2) The sources clearly indicate that it wasn't just about the legislative appropriations. It was about that, plus the fact that FIU was having a budget crisis at the time, plus the post was unadvertised. I completely agree that we needn't dwell on the controversy, but I think that a sense of completeness requires us to mention, albeit briefly, the various motivations for the grumbling, etc.

(BTW, I personally think this is a B.S. issue, but the job has been part of Rubio's life for many years.) Neutrality^talk 05:25, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

None of the sources you cite in any way contradict the Politico statement that "Democrats have since stopped criticizing the senator’s teaching arrangement...." This is not accurately paraphrased by "criticism of the teaching arrangement has diminished with time...". An accurate paraphrase of the Politico statement in combination with those that you cite would be this: "Although Democrats criticized the teaching arrangement at the time it was made, the matter is no longer a subject of partisan controversy". The only source you claim suggests it is still a matter of partisan controversy is a very brief comment by Miami New Times that "There's the controversial job he snagged at FIU". That's entirely consistent with the job having merely been controversial when he snagged it, and the Miami New Times merely purports to summarize a New York Times piece that merely says that there was "a billionaire who subsidized Mr. Rubio’s job as a college instructor" (nothing about controversy there at all). Over time, the reporting on this issue has established that the only real issue was the speediness of state aid, not its existence, and over time Democrats have dropped the matter. Giving it such attention here is undue weight, and your paraphrase of the totality of your sources is not accurate. The Miami New Times did not in any way suggest that the matter remains controversial. Moreover, the budget issues that plagued the university at that time apparently indicate that a free professor would have been helpful rather than hurtful to the university, so I do not understand your reliance on that point.Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:41, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My point is not that they "contradict" the Politico source; it's that the bulk of sources phrase it slightly differently.

A thought occurred to me. In the interests of simplicity, we could add "at the time" immediately following "...appointment as an FIU professor was controversial," and then cite to the Politico article and St. Pete Times article. That would be short, sweet, and accurate. Thoughts?

As to the rest: the prior legislative role was the main thrust of the controversy, yes, but again, the source are clear that other things were criticized (rightly or wrongly). (Also note that he wasn't a "free" professor; the Tampa Bay Times says that private donations subsidized most, but not all, of his salary). Neutrality^talk 05:55, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Getting $10,000 for working two years is essentially working for free ("Rubio covered all but $10,000 of his salary and health insurance costs by raising $125,000 over the past two years"). As to your suggestion about "at the time", thanks for the suggestion but the problem here is that the bulk of sources are not discussing whether or not there's still a controversy. Politico addresses it but the other sources you cite don't give any opinion about it. If I give you one book on geography that says Florida is a peninsula, and give you a hundred books on renaissance painting that say nothing about Florida, then we should not hesitate to say Florida is a peninsula using the first book as a reliable source.Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:09, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do you disagree that "at the time" would accurately reflect the Politico source? It would be entirely consistent with it, if very slightly less specific. "At the time" clearly implied "but no longer."

I am going offline. Let's pick this up tomorrow. I do think we are inching toward a resolution. Neutrality^talk 06:19, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that it's reasonable to cover an obsolete and abandoned controversy in great depth before even mentioning what kind of a professor he's been. The most notable point here is that as of now there is no controversy, and chronologically that comes last.Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:22, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think that approach is somewhat recentistic. This is a biography, and so the fact that a controversy may be "obsolete and abandoned" is meaningless. See, for example, Richard Blumenthal#Misrepresenting military service allegations. This controversy is now long out-of-date, yet we retain it because it is part of the historical record. There may be "no controversy" now, but that does not mean there never was.

Separately, I still think the controversy should come before the description of Rubio's classroom style, his teaching philosophy, etc., which I think is very RateMyProfessor/alumni magazine-ish.

Nevertheless, I think I can live with the most current text. It's not perfect, in my mind, but it is sufficient. (I would like to hear from other editors, of course, and new information can always change the calculus.

I have made the following edits to the section (mostly pertaining to edits that Prof. JR, not you, made).

First: I moved down the director's quote to the final paragraph (because it relates to the university's rationale for the hire) and shortened it slightly, because it is repetitious: we don't need four sentences from a single third party, nor two separate references to opportunity. (I believe you are fine with this; Prof. JR was the one who added in more from this quote).

Second: I removed the quote about Rubio being "easygoing and relaxed in this setting, delivering an hour-long lecture without notes and holding his students' attention." We already say that he is a popular professor; I do not think we need to spell out all the very common things that popular professors do (this is like saying something generic like "As a Senator, Rubio asks questions in committee hearings" - true but obvious). I believe @Cwobeel: agrees with me that we just don't need this quote.

Third: Prof. JR removed the salary information, and I've added it back in. Despite disagreeing on many points, both of us have included it in all of our versions from the start (I believe), and since it is well-sourced and brief I see no reason to exclude it).

Neutrality^talk 23:53, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am fine with these edits. - Cwobeel (talk) 01:24, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, Neutrality, I'm glad you can live with it. I've never been in favor of a purely chronological approach, only a roughly chronological approach that takes into account other things. For example, his FIU teaching, and the kerfuffle about it, do not fit perfectly neatly between his time as state legislator and federal legislator, and yet I think we both agree that the section about it belongs between those two for various reasons that are not purely chronological. If no objection, I will mark the first item (atop this subsection) as done. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:02, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No objection. Thanks. Neutrality^talk 03:46, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think we're pretty much done with the credit card stuff too, right? And the last item is eminent domain which I suppose refers to Kelo? Are we done with that too?Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:58, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The material is sourced to Michael Mishak's article In the National Journal;: What Kind of Leader Is Marco Rubio? An Investigation

1. That position had typically required a lot of arm-twisting, but Rubio took a different approach that relied more on persuading legislators and less on coercing them.

   .

2. Rubio also gained an extra advantage in that regard, because he was sworn in early due to the special election, and he would take advantage of these opportunities to join the GOP leadership.

   .

3. Yet, Rubio's style was very different from Bush's. Where Bush was a very assertive manager of affairs in Tallahassee, Rubio's style was to delegate certain powers, relinquish others, and invite former political rivals into his inner circle.

   .

Should this material be left in the article without attribution in Wikipedia's voice?

Comments

• Yes. This RFC is malformed for two reasons. First, the person who started this RFC omitted the very extensive notes at the end of each sentence that provide full attribution and support, and also omitted even footnote numbers that point to that attribution. Second, the RFC question wrongly says that there is presently no attribution, whereas there is plenty of attribution, just not inline. I objected to omission of the notes previously at this talk page, so it seems very deliberate now. The material in question is uncontradicted fact from a reliable news source, not opinion at all.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:06, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• No - Opinions needs to be attributed, in particular when the opinions make assessments of leadership style, intent, or other such value judgements of a living person. Footnotes may be a good addition, but are not a replacement for in-text attribution. Michael Mishak's opinions of Bush and Rubio, may be notable for inclusion, but attribution is a requirement in this case. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:04, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• No Even though they're not particularly controversial, they are one man's opinion of how he sees things. It's not the same as fact. Since this is a BLP, it is preferable to simply attribute it! —Мандичка^YO 😜 04:49, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think you maybe meant to vote "no"? I prefer "yes" but whatever....Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:54, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, fixed it. —Мандичка^YO 😜 05:16, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• No - Unless these are widely held views, they need to be attributed. Lengthy footnotes are not quite the same as in-text attribution, but the larger concern in this case is that they contravene WP:STRUCTURE.- MrX 15:16, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please elaborate somewhere why you think WP:STRUCTURE is relevant. There is no controversial information here, and no contradictory claims that are contrary to each other. It's absurd to clutter up the article with tons of inline attribution for mundane factual information that is sourced to reliable news reports.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:14, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

From the policy: "Pay attention to headers, footnotes, or other formatting elements that might unduly favor one point of view..." Adding a large amount of one individual's opinion to footnotes creates a neutrality problem.- MrX 23:19, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to delete the extensive notes which I inserted to provide more thorough attribution at the request of Cwobeel. The Mishak news report is...a news report. It's obviously not an opinion piece, and no one has indicated any "opinion" contrary to what he said and reported. The three items in the Wikipedia article accurately summarize the Mishak news report, and the extensive notes exist merely to demonstrate that the summaries are accurate. Delete the notes if it makes you feel better, but please stop pretending that a simple news report is an opinion piece. Thanks.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:31, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• No - Same reasoning as what the above users have already stated. Since the opinion of the article is not widely held, it needs to be attributed in order to make sure it is not WP:UNDUE. Opinions are not the same as facts. Cheers, Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 17:10, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• No - Unless these are widely-held views (i.e., repeatedly mentioned in other sources). Neutrality^talk 20:25, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is the material even slightly controversial, Neutrality? If I provide a second footnote to another reliable source for each item, would that be adequate in your opinion, and if not then how many reliable sources are necessary?Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:34, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on the type of source, and the stated proposition. A second independent source would further the idea that a given proposition is widely accepted and thus doesn't need in-text proposition. But, of course, it's more than just counting sources. If you have something specific in mind, I will take a look at it with an open mind.

I might also say that I find these quotes slightly redundant with the Gelber material already in the article. Neutrality^talk 23:55, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes. These statements don't seem controversial. Is there any suggestion that they're not accurate? It seems a little silly to keep saying "according to National Journal...".CFredkin (talk) 04:00, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• No It does make silly reading when an article contains a list of "according to...", but that is how we do things here. With a bit of style formatting and variation the article can still be a good read without presenting opinion in Wikipedias voice. FWIW don't attribute to the National Review, attribute the author as he is the one making the opinions. AIRcorn (talk) 06:30, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• No Pretty much per everyone else and all the arguments for attribution.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 07:22, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree there should be attribution. The issue here is inline attribution. The RFC question does not make this distinction, and therefore this RFC is malformed and/or meaningless. In any event, this Wikipedia article now provides inline attribution at the points in question. Footnotes have always been included.Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:23, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No it's seems pretty clear they are asking if this should have in text attribution. It seems clear also that every user who has voted no is aware of this. It also seems very clear that you are aware of this.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:47, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I hope people understand the RFC question, and realize (e.g, from my objections) that the footnote numbers and the word "inline" have been omitted for no good reason.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:03, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The question leaves out inline because it's not questioning if inline citation should be used. They are asking if in text attribution. Do we want Wikipedia to say that Rubio is arm twisting and ect? Or would we rather leave that to the author or source to say? Wikipedia voice vs the only alternative?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:40, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No. RFS member Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ (talk) 20:25, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• No. The relationships between the wording in the article and the wording in the sources are complicated, and I don't see that the words in the article accurately reflect the source. It’s not just a matter of adding a citation or not (this RfC is not properly framed). For example, the third sample of wording in the article says Rubio “invited” rivals, yet the source says he "recruited" them. The third sample says Bush was “assertive", yet the source says Bush was “domineering”. The meanings and connotations are too far apart. This is a problem which could be solved with quotation marks. Consider the second example, it switches from a singular “advantage” to a plural “advantages” — either that’s an error or something is missing. The first example says the position “had typically required a lot of arm-twisting”, as though the arm-twisting is in the past, yet the source keeps the arm-twisting in the present, as though the position still requires it. Which is different. The third footnote that’s in the article contains a statement that is a whopping example of original research and analysis: “Again, this is supported by various quotations by Mishak, and none of them undermine or contradict that Rubio’s style was to delegate certain powers, relinquish others, and invite former political rivals into his inner circle.” That is not acceptable. The quotations need to be removed and then worked on to make them strictly accurate. Clockchime (talk) 19:24, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Threaded discussion

• The notes accompanying these three items are as follows, and they make clear that the information in the news report is a factual journalistic assessment from a reliable news source:

According to Wikipedia:Citing_sources#In-text_attribution, "in-text attribution can mislead". For example, if we wrote "According to The New York Times, the sun will set in the west this evening" then that would be highly misleading. The same is true here. Moreover, per Wikipedia:Citing_sources#In-text_attribution, "It is best not to clutter articles with information best left to the references." As far as I know, none of the material that Cwobeel is objecting to here has been contradicted by anyone, and it has been proved in great detail by a reliable news source.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:28, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Case in point. The footnotes use attribution, but not the article's text. Readers need to have at-a-glance the understanding that the opinion is attributed to Mishak. This is NPOV 101. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:38, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The statements are not the least bit controversial, and you have not pointed to anyone who disagrees with them. They are totally factual, and are proven factual by the cited source.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:29, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You don't get it. I don't have to disprove anything whatsoever. What this RFC is about relates to the presentation of an opinion as if it was a fact and in Wikipedia's voice. Be patient and let editors come and weigh in. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:10, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I said above, "Before you go slapping more templates on the article, how about if we see what other editors think?" But you were too impatient.[2] I've got lots of patience. I don't think it's appropriate to slap a template on the article every time you have a disagreement that hasn't yet been resolved your way.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:17, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: This RFC poses the question, "Should this material be left in the article without attribution in Wikipedia's voice?" However, the material presently is in the article with tons of attribution, just not inline attribution. Therefore, the RFC is malformed, and the quoted sentences also misleadingly omit any hint that there are footnotes, and so this RFC will resolve nothing.Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:02, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No need to shout. The RFC is very clear in its presentation, please respect WP:DR and let the RFC run its course. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is deliberately misleading, and I have requested that the RFC be cancelled.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to being deliberately misleading, the RFC is now also moot because inline attribution is now provided, against my better judgment.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:17, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note to participants There is some concern that the clear and obvious question above may not be clear. Should this material be left in the article without attribution in Wikipedia's voice? So far every person excluding Anythingyouwant seems to have clearly understood it thus far. To clear up any possible future confusion that may eventually pop up let's clarify the question real quick. Should we follow WP:INTEXT and use in text attribution is the above examples?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:32, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is a bio, but we have a political positions section, in which we report on the subjects' viewpoints, including comments that have been debunked or fact checked. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:21, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This edit is undue and not relevant for his bio.CFredkin (talk) 15:39, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense. It is not undue to present the viewpoint of a LP in his bio, and fact checking related to the viewpoint as reported in reliable sources. That is what that section is about. We are not here to cherry-pick which statements by politicians we include or exclude, and neither we are here not to include commentary about these positions as reported in reliable sources. We are here to build an encyclopedia, not a talking points website for Rubio. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:19, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree.... we are not here to cherry-pick gotcha statements by politicians. This is a BLP, not a PolitiFact article.CFredkin (talk) 16:52, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Rubio advocates for vocational education, so you are saying that including his own comments is undue? If that is the case, we should remove most of the material in the political positions article. That is unless you are OK to include his statement, but omit the fact-checking, which would result in a violation of NPOV - Cwobeel (talk) 16:57, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's on the money. At a minimum, something like this belongs in a "Rubio presidential campaign" article. Is there one? This would be a way to deal with the NPOV problem -- move a lot of "positions" there so that they don't clog up the BLP. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:59, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

His political positions extend beyond the current run for the nomination, and all his political positions are described in this article. If the Political Positions section becomes too big, we can WP:SPLIT, but I don't think we are at that point. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:02, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

His support for vocational education is already included in the article. What I'm objecting to is inclusion of a gotcha statement, which even Politico admits is only factually inaccurate in certain situations.CFredkin (talk) 17:21, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

According to a research fellow at the Acton Institute, "only 35% of philosophy majors, the lowest percentage of all college majors listed, are still working in their field".[3]. I very much support describing Rubio's positions, but I oppose describing the positions and arguments of others, either for or against Rubio's positions.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:36, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hopefully we all understand the difference between a blog hosted by the Acton Institute (a right-wing think tank) and an independent, reliable source. Insofar as Rubio made a blanket statement that welders earn more than philosophy majors, he is wrong under any set of reasonable parameters. That said, I don't see that this is relevant enough to include in his bio. If we covered at length every false, misleading, or laughable claim made in a Presidential debate, the candidates' bios would consist of little else. MastCell ^Talk 17:45, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) No one is asking to include "the positions and arguments of others", but if a politician makes an argument that is challenged in reliable sources, not including it is a violation of NPOV. This is a bio, not an official Rubio talking point website. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:47, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No matter whether the source is reliable or not, I oppose mentioning that only 35% of philosophy majors, the lowest percentage of all college majors, are still working in their field. The section is about Rubio's positions, not about critiques of (or counterargument against) his positions.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:59, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

But this isn't a campaign website, and his positions don't exist in a vacuum. An encyclopedia doesn't regurgitate a candidate's platform; it provides appropriate context. (That said, I agree that the welders-vs.-philosophers error isn't notable enough to deserve mention here). MastCell ^Talk 20:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Appropriate context does not include saying why he's wrong, IMHO. I don't support regurgitation, but brief summaries would be adequate. Note that the Hillary Clinton article doesn't even include brief summaries.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:50, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Because Clinton has an extensive article about her political positions Political positions of Hillary Clinton that is larger in size that this entire article. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:08, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, do we have a deal that once there is a separate article for Rubio's political positions then we will stop summarizing them here and stop using this main article to summarize the attacks on Rubio's positions?Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:20, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The argument about fact-checking media vs. other media seems to me to be beside the point, since PolitiFact is not the only one to mention the welders vs. philosophers statement.

Other outlets have also covered it; for example, The Washington Post ("Sorry, Marco Rubio. Philosophy majors actually make way more than welders"); CNN ("Marco Rubio's quip about welders gets torched"), NYTimes ("Philosophers (and Welders) React to Marco Rubio’s Debate Comments").

I don't have a strong opinion as yet on whether this should go into the campaign article or into the biographical article, but wherever it goes, there are sources to draw upon. Neutrality^talk 22:54, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's a great example of WP:recentism: something that's mentioned briefly by a few media sources, but which won't be discussed or remembered after a short period of time. It's hardly a blip even in the context of the campaign, much less Rubio's BLP.CFredkin (talk) 23:10, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Rubio's BLP" includes a section on his political positions. As such and for NPOV, we ought to describe significant viewpoints about said political positions. NPOV is non-negotiable. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:20, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think a key part of the equation is whether something is a one-off or part of a stump speech (i.e., repeated). If the former, then omitting it in the biographical article makes sense; if the latter, then inclusion makes sense. (Inclusion in the campaign article is a much easier case than in the biographical article; that is where most "blips" should go).

If we do include a given statement/proposal/policy, of course, we absolutely cannot ignore what the set of reliable sources say on (1) whether the claim is false, realistic, etc. and (2) what the actual impact of the proposal would be. That would violate NPOV, because it would selectively write out a piece of the story necessary for context. I would not consider such elaboration to be merely "the views of others" or "criticism/attacks"; rather I would consider the statements necessary for the reader's full understanding. Neutrality^talk 23:25, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The content in question has to do with the relative pay of welders vs. philosophers. That's not a political position.CFredkin (talk) 23:30, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

of course it is. He is using these purportedly false facts for advocating for vocational training instead of 4-year college education. It is part of his stump speech. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:38, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The relative pay claim was advanced in a presidential debate in the context of higher education policy, arguing about what society and the government should subsidize and incentivize. One would be hard-pressed to say that it's not political. This is the same thing as politicians giving various pay gap statistics to argue for or against the Ledbetter Act. These are factual assertions used to advance a political point. Neutrality^talk 23:39, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't remember the exact wording, but in one of his speeches he stated the same thing, but elaborated on why he advocates some students going to vocational school instead of taking on loan debt, and how there were far fewer jobs for philosophy majors in their field than there are for available for welders. Can't find the source right now, but just thought it might be relevant to this anyway, though I don't think the comment really falls under his position one way or another. MavsFan28 (talk) 16:06, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if this is a case of someone trying to paint him as the ultimate underdog for winning in 2010, or if this is simply a mistake of undue weight, but its a little crazy that the 2010 election section is so small yet the part about it in the lead is a full paragraph. Shouldn't there be something mentioned about his notability in the senate (ie immigration)? MavsFan28 (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@MavsFan28: Good suggestion. Have tried to consolidate discussion of 2010 Senate election into that section in body of article, and make lede more concise. See what you think. (I believe his work on immigration is covered in the "Immigration" subsection.) --- Professor JR (talk) 17:56, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Professor JR: I do think that there should be some mention of the immigration bill due to his notability with it (opposed by many in his party, most prominent legislation he's pushed thus far, etc), but this version is definit

Rubio has taken stances on many issues. It's questionable whether immigration is the most important. Also, his stance on immigration has also changed over time.Eeyoresdream (talk) 18:43, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Which is why I worded it as immigration reform, which he has always supported regardless of the specifics. But I see your point. I think the lead should have something on his time in the senate though, maybe the committees he's served on if nothing else. MavsFan28 (talk) 18:48, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the following statement which is currently included in the summary of the Political Positions section, I haven't found any reliable sources that support the statement that Rubio supports indefinite detention. I also haven't found reliable sources to support the claim that he supports war against ISIS without explicit congressional approval. Any objection to removing them?

Really not sure what to make of this post. In the first source given at the end of the sentence [4], we see: "Rubio’s support for indefinite detention, support for arming the Syrian rebels, support for the war against ISIS without explicit congressional approval, and support for the NSA." What exactly is the problem? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:28, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify... the source provided for the statement in the article claims that Rubio supports indefinite detention. Indefinite detention for whom? Terrorists? Criminals? Americans? Guinea Pigs? I can't find any other reliable sources to provide clarity on this. It's already noted in the article that Rubio supports detention of terrorists at Guantanamo. We could say that he supports detention of terrorists based on that, but it's wildly misleading to leave it as it is.CFredkin (talk) 16:33, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also, this source seems to contradict the statement that Rubio supports war against ISIS without explicit congressional approval:

Moved discussion of his ancestry out of the lede, including an absurd sentence asserting that "Rubio and is one of three Latin Americans currently serving in the Senate." For the record, Rubio is an American. His parents came from Cuba. He was born in the USA.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:29, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good to me. I have also enlarged the lead.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:42, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it was meant to be "Latino American" which Rubio is, as it means anyone of Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Salvadoran, Dominican, Guatemalan, and Colombian origin/ descent currently residing in the US (regardless of the country they are born in). MavsFan28 (talk) 20:52, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It now says "Latino American" later in the article, which seems adequate.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:06, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Being one of the few Latino Americans in the senate is pretty significant, which is why its mentioned on the other two senators articles as well. It should be in the lead. For some reason, a lot of people seem to oppose saying Cuban Americans are Latinos. MavsFan28 (talk) 21:54, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know. There are lots of senators of various ethnicities and genders and religions, and I'm not sure if that stuff always has to be in the lead.Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:04, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is relevant material. He is an American alright, but one of the handful Latinos in the Senate. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:48, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If it's notable, as it is in this case, it does belong there. Saying he's one of many Catholics/ Christians is not relevant in the lead, because its not uncommon for Senators to be. MavsFan28 (talk) 23:08, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]