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== Colbert ==

Be wary of the recent Colbert Show encouraging viewers to modify Republican politician wikipedia pages to indicate that they are Mitt Romney's VP pick. Tim Pawlenty's page was already fully protected for this reason. --[[User:Theelectricchild|Theelectricchild]] ([[User talk:Theelectricchild|talk]]) 09:24, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

:I didn't know about that (I don't watch TV) but I had already requested temporary semi page protection which was granted. [[User:ViriiK|ViriiK]] ([[User talk:ViriiK|talk]]) 09:28, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

== GOP ticket in 2016 ==

So far this seems to be rather week tea for a BLP. Can we drop the chatter on this until Marco says something himself? [[User:Hcobb|Hcobb]] ([[User talk:Hcobb|talk]]) 15:06, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

:I think the quick trip to Iowa speaks pretty loudly. [[User:Nomoskedasticity|Nomoskedasticity]] ([[User talk:Nomoskedasticity|talk]]) 15:25, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

::I agree. Note that being prominently talked about as a presidential nominee greatly strengthens his political position in the Senate today and thus is very important in 2012 whether or not he actually gets a nomination at some future date. The fact of the speculation by politicians is a reality Wiki should report. [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 16:43, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

:::It remains speculation, and thus is improper as Wikipedia is not a place for crystal-ball gazing. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 18:30, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

:::And we should not elide the "others" mentioned in the ''same cites'' as used for Rubio - in fact, they are ''mainly'' about those "others." [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 18:40, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

*And so Collect added the others, only to be reverted because the "others" didn't belong in the Rubio article. This all points up the worthlessness of adding the material in the first place. As Hcobb correctly stated, this is pretty weak stuff, and I might add that it's fairly standard stuff and is probably going to be mentioned in the press a lot. Are we going to include it each time? There's nothing noteworthy here, and I've restored the article back to before the material.--[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] ([[User talk:Bbb23|talk]]) 21:38, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

::the political commentators from all perspectives say that he is under consideration for 2016 among the top 5 or 20 names in the GOP. That is very important for readers to know. [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 21:50, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

:::We can not pick a ''tiny piece'' from a source and ignore the rest of the source. The sources are about multiple people, and not about just one - as the claim implies. Cheers. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 21:58, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

::::@Rjensen, you added the material. You were reverted. At this point, you should not re-add the material unless you have a clear consensus for doing so ([[WP:BRD]]). Stop insisting.--[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] ([[User talk:Bbb23|talk]]) 21:59, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

== Young Earth creationism ==

http://mobile.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2012/11/19/florida_senator_marco_rubio_the_age_of_the_earth_is_a_great_mystery.html

:Mark him down as a [[Young Earth creationism]] supporter? [[User:Hcobb|Hcobb]] ([[User talk:Hcobb|talk]]) 21:46, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

::Nope. And that column does not make that claim. And the false umbrage taken at his valid point - that the actual age of the Earth is not necessarily relevant to ''economic decisions'' etc. is absurd. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 22:54, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

::Hcobb, I'd suggest drawing on the GQ interview itself. And perhaps there are other sources that have discussed/analyzed that interview. [[User:Nomoskedasticity|Nomoskedasticity]] ([[User talk:Nomoskedasticity|talk]]) 23:14, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

:::How about not speculating at all? Rubio made no claim of any sort. [[User:Arzel|Arzel]] ([[User talk:Arzel|talk]]) 19:51, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

He might have... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTedvV6oZjo <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/189.186.102.179|189.186.102.179]] ([[User talk:189.186.102.179|talk]]) 21:22, 6 February 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:So far no reliable source has averred him to be a "young earth creationist." None. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 21:33, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

== talkingpoints memo is an opinion source ==

TPM (talkingpointsmemo.com) is an "opinion source". Columns written for it are "opinion columns." Opinions made by it must be cited as the opinions of those holding them, and not made as fact in Wikipedia's voice. Where that opinion is contentious, it is covered by [[WP:BLP]]. Cheers. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 08:35, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

:Is this addressed to me? I have not visited a website called talkingpointsmemo, ever. What are you on about? And why are you so interested in keeping this material off the page? If Rubio wants to position himself as an ally to creationists, who are you to say it's inappropriate for our article to note this? [[User:Nomoskedasticity|Nomoskedasticity]] ([[User talk:Nomoskedasticity|talk]]) 09:12, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

:You have a few problems here. First, you haven't proved that the article is from TPM. Just as importantly, you haven't proven this is an opinion piece. TPM is a journalistic endeavor that is no biased to the left than Fox is to the right. The author of the piece is a journalist, not a columnist, so good luck proving your point. -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 09:23, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

:Also, the matter asserted in the text is supported by a quote from Rubio himself, so even if it were an opinion piece, that wouldn't matter. For that matter, the TPM pulls its information from an article in the ''Florida Baptist Witness''.[http://gofbw.com/News.asp?ID=8473] -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 09:29, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

::The '''source''' attribtutes it to talkingpointsmemo! Did you fail to see the "TPM" at the by-line? And the "quote" does ''not'' support linking him to "supporting" creationists, much less to being a creationist. As for saying that an opinion puiece is not "biased" is irrelevant to the general rule that opinions are attributed to the person holding them. And as for the absurd claim that a quote which does ''not'' link Rubio to creationism is somehow usable for saying he supports creationists -- that way lies madness. Wikipedia does ''not'' allow sources for anything more than the factual claims in them for assertions of fact. Contentious claims ''must'' be removed without strong sourcing per [[WP:BLP]]. Cheers. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 13:55, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

:::Collect, you are being completely obtuse. I have never even '''heard''' of "talkingpointsmemo" and had no idea what TPM is meant to stand for. And frankly even after knowing I really don't care. There is nothing in the headline, the headers, the url or anything else that conveys the notion that this is an opinion piece. Yahoo News has it under a "Politics" tab. The only one who seems to think it's an opinion piece is you. Not only that -- I'm not drawing anything at all from Rubio's own quote. I wrote my sentence ("As House Speaker Rubio took the side of creationists in debates in the Florida Board of Education over what role evolution was to have in the state's public school curriculum") mainly on the basis of the following passage from the source: "Then-state House Speaker Rubio was on the side of creationists." The sentence I added is, then, [[WP:V|verified]] by the source I provided. Lastly: do take note of [[WP:3RR]] as you are currently at the limit. [[User:Nomoskedasticity|Nomoskedasticity]] ([[User talk:Nomoskedasticity|talk]]) 14:45, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

::::Well -- now you know what it is, right? And that it is clearly marked. I would also point out the discussion at BLP/N appears to conform with my position, and [[WP:BLP]] is not a negotiable policy. TPM is not a reliable source per ''Widely recognized as the pioneer of iterative journalism, which draws on readers’ knowledge to break stories'' instead of using reporters. Cheers. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 14:50, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

:::::You are doing some pretty impressive spinning here. Yahoo News has published an article by Pema Levy who appears to be associated with Talkpointsmemo. So what? I am not citing Talkingpointsmemo, I am citing a news story in the Politics section of Yahoo News. [[User:Nomoskedasticity|Nomoskedasticity]] ([[User talk:Nomoskedasticity|talk]]) 14:52, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

::::::BTW, count your own edits as well -- you hit 3RR ''before'' I did here. And also note [http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/11/marco-rubio-age-of-the-earth-2016.php] which makes absolutely clear that TPM is, indeed, the source of the opinion column. Yahoo is ''not'' the source of the copyrighted column. ''Copyright TPM Media, LLC.'' [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 15:05, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

:::::::Do you not know what a revert is? The first time one adds material to a page is not a revert. [[User:Nomoskedasticity|Nomoskedasticity]] ([[User talk:Nomoskedasticity|talk]]) 16:06, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

::::::::Did you not read the discussion about implying Rubio is a "creationist" from earlier on this page? Adding material ''on the same topic'' is absolutely a "revert" under the Wikipedia usage. It is ''not'' required that it be the same words, and I suggest you know it. Meanwhile, do you elieve Rubio is a "creationist"? Cheers. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 16:13, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

:::::::::I do not have any idea whether Rubio is a creationist, nor would my opinion on the issue matter here -- which is why I did not write any content asserting that he is a creationist, which is why what I added was not a revert. [[User:Nomoskedasticity|Nomoskedasticity]] ([[User talk:Nomoskedasticity|talk]]) 16:15, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

:::Actually, the source attributes it to the ''Florida Baptist Witness'', so you need not throw up exclamation marks at me. If you want to cite to that source instead, you are welcome to, but your objections to TPM are both groundless and pointless. TPM is a liberal-leaning news source, just as Fox News is a right-leaning one. The piece is clearly an article, not an opinion piece. That covers groundlessness, but the fact that the information is attributed to another news source, namely the one to which the comments were made, makes your argument pointless as well. What's more, an opinion piece that features a direct quotation can be used as a source for that direct quotation. What you cannot use an opinion piece to prove is that some conclusion or assertion made by the writer of the piece is true. -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 21:52, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

::Good luck trying to make changes to this page, Collect, despite your long and broad history of respected work in improving biographies at wikipedia (including in contentious contexts). A review of the article, edit history, and archives seems to suggest that a trio of contributors—Nomoskedasticity, Rrius, and Bbb23—controls the content, through their particular application of wikipedia rules. The fact that the pillars state that "all of your contributions can and will be mercilessly edited" and that the "principles and spirit of Wikipedia's rules matter more than their literal wording, and sometimes improving Wikipedia requires making an exception to a rule. Be bold (but not reckless) in updating articles..." seems to apply to those outside, but not inside this trio. It may be that "politics" are required for change to this article on a politician—that you and others must create the consensus that you need, through communications to other editors outside this trio. (This could be a misperception; someone could do the statistics regarding how many edits have appeared that did not come from or have the approval of these three. But this is how it seems to me, as a regular reader.) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.226.206.67|70.226.206.67]] ([[User talk:70.226.206.67|talk]]) 18:38, 28 December 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Archiving ==

This talk page is getting rather long. Does anyone object to using a bot to archive threads older than a month? -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 15:49, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

:Without objection, so ordered. -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 04:32, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

::Lol. So ordered. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.226.206.67|70.226.206.67]] ([[User talk:70.226.206.67|talk]]) 18:43, 28 December 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== How does one get to archived talk? ==

The link to the archive index in the heading that indicates automatic archiving appears to be dead/broken. LeProf <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.226.206.67|70.226.206.67]] ([[User talk:70.226.206.67|talk]]) 18:18, 28 December 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Both links (1 and 2) work fine for me.--[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] ([[User talk:Bbb23|talk]]) 18:36, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

::The "1" and "2" work fine. The broken link is the word "here", at the end of this header text:

::"This talk page is automatically archived by MiszaBot I. Any threads with no replies in 90 days may be automatically moved. Sections without timestamps are not archived. An archive index is available here." <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.226.206.67|70.226.206.67]] ([[User talk:70.226.206.67|talk]]) 18:44, 28 December 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

{{outdent|::}}It's "broken" because the archive index page was never created. Rrius, next time remember to create the archive index page and place the comment <nowiki><!-- Legobot can blank this --></nowiki> on it, since HBC Archive Indexerbot/Legobot doesn't create it for you. Additional instructions are on [[User:HBC Archive Indexerbot#Instructions|the bot's page]]. - [[User:M0rphzone|M0rphzone]] ([[User talk:M0rphzone|talk]]) 00:49, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

:I'm sure you had a reason for calling me out personally instead of making a generalized contribution regarding what the problem was and that you had fixed it. If you truly thought it necessary to let me know I had made a mistake, making the personal comment on my page instead of making it here (addressed specifically to me) and giving me a {{tl|talkback}} would normally be considered the more polite way to handle it. But again, I'm sure you had some reason. -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 05:12, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

::It's supposed to be addressed to anyone who sees it as well, so they know about the procedure too. Then again, maybe I was just a bit lazy, so I'm sorry if it didn't seem polite. - [[User:M0rphzone|M0rphzone]] ([[User talk:M0rphzone|talk]]) 08:39, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

:::The problem was that it should have been addressed to anyone who would see it; instead, it was addressed to me, which is why it ''was'' rude. -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 08:52, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

::::I've been watching the correspondence of these pages for a while. It's rather amazing that any regular contributor would level an accusation of incivility to a stray editor. In general, anyone questioning the content of/suggesting changes to this article seems guaranteed eventual incivility, by the wiki good faith standard. To see examples of why I say this, search the words "rude" and "war" in the talk archives. Then read around the appearances of those words. All in all, this seems a generally unhappy place to try to contribute. And that the pot in this case may be calling the kettle black. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.175.244.80|67.175.244.80]] ([[User talk:67.175.244.80|talk]]) 23:29, 12 February 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:::::On your last point, one of us was provoked, one of us was not. Also the characterization of me as a regular contributor here is baseless. I edited here for something like three weeks, and the main part of it dealt with a series of edits by a particular editor that simply did not conform to Wikipedia's guidelines, including its most basic ones, and about which he or she edit warred mercilessly, ultimately finding himself blocked (and by an editor not involved in the discussion). As for guaranteed incivility, that doesn't track with what is actually written in the discussions above. As a matter of fact, the only incivility I see in them is from an IP editor accusing me and others of trying to "control" content through "application of wikipedia rules". (I'd note that my inclusion in that list is hilarious not only because of my limited participation here, but because my participation in that discussion was limited to pointing out that the quote at issue was supported by a source other than the one being complained of.) Finally, as for the invitation to search the archives for "war" and "rude", there weren't too terribly many examples of the former (and many had to do with the actions of the particular editor I previously referred to) and there were zero for the latter. I doubt your barely veiled accusations were of any value to the two of us—you because you got to make some veiled, yet still unpleasant, accusations that seem based in a grudge about something or other without having to actually defend a real position, and me because I got to respond to your insults and the nasty accusations by IP 70.... So thank you. -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 05:07, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

== Error in social security comment ==

Social Security is not running short of money; indeed, it has so much money the federal government is borrowing money from the Social Security Trust Fund (more than from China) and any fix needed in a few decades is easy to fix. Right now individuals pay Social Security tax on a small portion of their earned income. Simply raising the limit on share of income to be subject to S.S. tax to say $200,000 would fix the system for decades to come. The real problem is Medicare because medical costs in general are so high and increasing, though ObamaCare will fix that to some degree. In fact, Medicare is much more efficient than private insurance. The overhead for private insurance ranges between 15-20% because of advertisements and high pay for executives. The overhead for Medicare is only 3 or 4 percent, so the cost of insurance would be lower if everyone had Medicare. As an historian (American History) with an emphasis on American economic history, that error should be fixed. The other problem with the cost of medical care is that private insurance companies negotiate with pharmaceutical companies for the lowest cost of medications as does the VA, Congressional health insurance and Medicaid. However, when George Bush and the GOP passed the Drug Benefit they refused to allow Medicare to negotiate lower costs. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/97.127.176.244|97.127.176.244]] ([[User talk:97.127.176.244|talk]]) 21:45, 10 February 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:This isn't a forum for discussing politics. Try the Daily Kos or Reddit. This is about making sure the article on Marco Rubio is biographical and adequately summarizes the reliable sources that have profiled him. If you have a specific change you want to make to the article, point out which sentences are wrong and give us the sources (specific to Rubio) that offer more reliable information. Or if the statements are not reflected in sources about Rubio, go ahead and remove them and leave an edit summary explaining the change. —[[User:Designate|Designate]] ([[User talk:Designate|talk]]) 22:47, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

::In areas of wikipedia that I am familiar with, people make changes routinely. This is true both of stray edits brought to an article by the occasional visiting editor, and of edits made by a small group of dedicated editors working as a community around the particular article. Here I want to comment on what seems to be a difficulty of such visiting "outsiders" making the occasional stray edits. Judging by the history of responses, proposals for changes almost always seem to go against the views of the dedicated editors. As a result, little outsider-proposed change seems to make it into the article.

::The point I want to make here is that we are directed to view changes brought to articles, to be in ''good faith''. The words "If you have a specific change you want to make to the article, point out which sentences are wrong and give us the sources" (in Talk) seem to create a special standard for this article, imposed by the "us". It makes it appear that all editing must be pre-approved. Is this correct? If it is true, isn't this a tacit assumption of visiting editor bad faith, and so a violation of wikipedia philosophy? I am not arguing that Designate's words are not accurate to the way this article is controlled, only asking if it's wikipedia's desire that it should be this way. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.175.244.80|67.175.244.80]] ([[User talk:67.175.244.80|talk]]) 23:46, 12 February 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:::There are two things to point out. The first is that while it is important for all content on Wikipedia to be verified by a reliable source, it is vital that information at a [[WP:BLP|biography of a living person]] be sourced. With living people, there are higher stakes (including libel laws) to contend with. Finding a source is crucial. Using scrupulously neutral language is crucial. Sometimes that takes a group effort. The other thing I need to point out is that this is an article that, because of Rubio's high profile, attracts a great deal of disingenuous edits that are really just ways to score political points. That makes logged-in editors with this page on their watchlists to be a little quicker to revert, especially when there is no source. Because of a rash of unsourced and other poor edits, this page has been restricted to [[WP:Autoconfirmed|autoconfirmed]] editors for a week (ending 20 February at 3:53 UTC). Incidentally, by simply creating an account and making 10 edits, you too can be autoconfirmed.

:::That said, I can't even tell from the other IP editor, the one who made the initial contribution in this section, what the intended change is. If the desire is to discuss Medicare and health care reform generally, this isn't the place. If it is to note some particular proposal Rubio has made or reaction to or analysis of particular proposal, the editor needs to write what he or she wants included in the article along with a source and where to put it. -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 05:32, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

:::You misunderstood me. I don't feel edits ''need'' to be pre approved, just that the talk page is here for that purpose. The original poster listed his opinions about Social Security but didn't relate it back to the article. I'm just suggesting that it would be more constructive on this talk page to focus on the article, and propose changes, than to say the article is wrong. There's no need to propose changes before making them; it's just an option. [[User:Designate|Designate]] ([[User talk:Designate|talk]]) 17:16, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

== Edit request on 13 February 2013 ==

{{edit semi-protected|answered=no}}

<!-- Begin request -->

Ref in controversies doesn't make sense (On the Issues). Use Tampa Bay Times: http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/legislature/article1075692.ece instead. [[Special:Contributions/184.78.81.245|184.78.81.245]] ([[User talk:184.78.81.245|talk]]) 13:48, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

<!-- End request -->

[[Special:Contributions/184.78.81.245|184.78.81.245]] ([[User talk:184.78.81.245|talk]]) 13:48, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

== Text for SoTU 2013 response ==

When he delivered the official response to the 2013 State of the Union address, Rubio blamed government actions for being the main cause of the housing crisis, but did not indicate if he thought this was because of lending to traditionally underserved markets or by the reduction of regulation.

Agreeable? [[User:Hcobb|Hcobb]] ([[User talk:Hcobb|talk]]) 17:22, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

:"But did not indicate" is a clear presentation of "argument" rather than "fact." We can surely state what he said, but stating what he did ''not'' say runs against Wikipedeia policies and guidelines. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 18:56, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

::Can we put in a timeline then?

In delivering the official response to Obama's 2013 State of the Union address, Rubio blamed government actions during the Bush administration for being the main cause of the housing crisis.

::Clear enough? [[User:Hcobb|Hcobb]] ([[User talk:Hcobb|talk]]) 21:28, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

::''In the Republican response to the 2013 State of the Union Address, Rubio said government actions in the past were a cause of the housing crisis.''

::It is ''not'' our place to present arguments ''not'' made by Rubio into his mouth - and I suggest his complaint was about the government in general and not specific to the "Bush administration" at all. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 22:08, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Then at least call it the 2008 [[Subprime mortgage crisis]]. [[User:Hcobb|Hcobb]] ([[User talk:Hcobb|talk]]) 20:07, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

== Opinion POV pushers ==

I see that our resident POV pushers are [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Marco_Rubio&diff=538072049&oldid=538071751 intent] on using a Blog Opinion piece to attack Rubio. This kind of crap is really tiring. Don't you have anything better to do than to come to WP and push Liberal talking points on a daily basis? Since when are the WaPo opinion blogs considered a "First rate source" on anything? [[User:Arzel|Arzel]] ([[User talk:Arzel|talk]]) 17:20, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

To paraphrase Neil DeGrasse Tyson: “The good thing about Economic facts is that they're true whether or not you believe in it.” [[User:ShroudedSciuridae|ShroudedSciuridae]] ([[User talk:ShroudedSciuridae|talk]]) 04:33, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

== Information on grandfather ==

Can someone please explain why 3/4 of the opening paragraph on his 'early life, education, and early political career' is about his grandfather. I find the information irrelevant and it appears to be pejorative. Also, if US immigration declined or ultimately decided NOT to deport him, is he really here illegally?

"Rubio's maternal grandfather immigrated to the U.S. in 1962 without a visa and was detained by immigration authorities. An immigration judge ordered Rubio's grandfather deported,[7] but ultimately U.S. immigration authorities used their discretion to allow him to remain in the U.S. without a visa.[8] The Associated Press reported that "no other immigration records exist for Garcia from 1962 until he applied for residency four years later" and concluded that he likely remained in the U.S. illegally during the intervening period.[7]"[[Special:Contributions/72.51.81.78|72.51.81.78]] ([[User talk:72.51.81.78|talk]]) 01:28, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

:The surmise that a person was "illegally" in the US is not something which holds water in Wikipedia at all. After 1962, the interest in deporting a person ''to a country with which the US did not have normal diplomatic relations'' (i.e. Cuba) would have been unsuaul in and of itself. In fact, I would love to see figures on how many Cubans ''were'' deported from the US mainland after 1962 to Cuba. If that number is found to be substantial, that would be of interest. If that number were at or near zero, I rather think it was a deliberate decision of the US government at the time not to deport such refugees. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 01:57, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

::United States' policy has been to treat all Cuban illegals as refugees. Deportation to Cuba was suspended in 1960 when the trade embargo went up. Now the exception to this was after 1996, people who were convicted of aggravated felonies should be deported back to Cuba so there is around 30,000 people on the deportation list out of the millions of Cubans refugees here in the US mostly in Miami. So an immigration judge which is at the very lowest level of the totem pole does not decide policy. It just simply passes the sentence on what is the law on paper but as far as what INS (ICE) did back then was following a different policy. The policy in the United States regarding refugees is that they can earn green cards which eventually leads to US Citizenship. So that would apply to Rubio's grandfather as well which based on the quote above, he did get US Citizenship through his refugee status. [[User:ViriiK|ViriiK]] ([[User talk:ViriiK|talk]]) 04:35, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

:::I'm going to make the apparently radical suggestion that we actually report what reliable independent sources have to say on the subject. The material in question is properly sourced and attributed, so I fail to see any substance to Collect's objection. The Associated Press reported that Rubio's grandfather [http://www.wpbf.com/news/politics/Marco-Rubio-s-grandfather-ordered-deported-to-Cuba-in-1962/-/8788770/11841162/-/1yggv2z/-/index.html "likely remained illegally"] in the U.S. We convey that reliably sourced information, with clear attribution. That's Wikipedia 101. And the ''Washington Post'' article ([http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/marco-rubios-grandfather-had-difficult-transition-to-us/2012/06/17/gJQA4535jV_story.html]) very clearly outlines Rubio's grandfather's encounters with the U.S. immigration system:<p>"In the eyes of the United States government, he is not a political exile. He is a man who has broken immigration laws... Pedro Victor is officially an undocumented immigrant, a man standing on American soil without permission to be there. Then comes the crushing blow. Milich orders 'that the applicant be excluded and deported from the United States.' How could a Cuban be deported under those conditions in that era? A little more than a year and a half after the Bay of Pigs invasion? After Castro’s declaration that he was a Marxist­ Leninist? It turns out that in those days a small number of Cubans were still being sent back to the island for violating visa requirements."<p>I'm not sure I understand why we're arguing or speculating about matters which are already clearly outlined in the cited reliable sources. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;^{[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]} 04:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

::::That's convincing enough. It appears from the source that the grandfather was at a key stage an undocumented immigrant issued with a deportation order (which he did not obey). Subsequently he was able to regularize his status. [[User:Nomoskedasticity|Nomoskedasticity]] ([[User talk:Nomoskedasticity|talk]]) 10:15, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

:::::The US recognized a large number of such aliens as being refugees after Castro showed his intentions to the US - thus this is not of any great relevance to the BLP at hand. Cheers. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 11:51, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

::::::I'll ask one more time that you leave behind your personally preferred framing of this issue and simply respect the available reliable sources. The ''Washington Post'' article I mentioned above makes it clear that it was unusual for Cubans to be deported, but that Rubio's grandfather was in fact one of the relatively small number who was ordered to be deported. I think your reasoning is completely backward - the fact that it was unusual makes it ''more'' noteworthy, not less - but since reliable sources amply cover all aspects of the situation I don't see a role for your personal opinion, or mine, at all here. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;^{[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]} 04:15, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

::::::::My issue ois the surmise of "illegally" being a contentious claim based soely on AP surmise, and not on any judicial finding or actions. Lacking such, it is a "contentious claim." Suppose we had an article on George Gnarph, and we wrote "The AP surmised that he committed seventen murders, even no juscial actions were taken about any of them.? Would you not find ''that'' to be a BLP violation? Or suppose we had "George Gnarph alleged that the members of the 'Fooism Research group' altered their emails" Would you find that to be a BLP violation? The principles of BLP are that "contentious claims" require solid factual sourcing. No matter on which article whatsoever. Cheers. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 12:39, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::The couple of sentences on Rubio's grandfather are among the best-sourced in the article. I don't get the sense you've looked at the actual sources you're disputing. There ''was'' a judicial finding, of course - Rubio's grandfather was ordered to be deported by an immigration judge. That's in the sources. Your analogy, in which you compare an undocumented immigrant to a serial murderer, is so far removed from relevance that I don't see much point in engaging it. I notice that others are telling you pretty much the same thing at the [[WP:BLP/N|BLP noticeboard]], where you've taken your concern. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;^{[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]} 04:36, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

== Personal life section ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Marco_Rubio&diff=next&oldid=538318083 This edit] reverted several edits I made on February 14. Most of my edits had comments explaining the reason why the edits were made. Besides bad sourcing, some information was just clearly wrong, like he was married in 1997. If anyone would like to challenge these edits, please take them up in this section to get community consensus. [[User:Mnnlaxer|Mnnlaxer]] ([[User talk:Mnnlaxer|talk]]) 02:50, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

:Rubio has occasionally attended Catholic services, but is not a member of a Catholic parish. The quote from the recently added [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/27/us/27beliefs.html NYT article] states: <blockquote>He retains ties to the Catholic Church, too. "On the final Sunday of the campaign, for example, he attended Mass at Christ the King Catholic Church in Tampa,” according to an e-mail from Alex Burgos, his spokesman. “On the morning of the election, he attended Mass in Coral Gables.”</blockquote>The quote put in the citation previously was a third party view at the end of the article that was rebutted by another third party a paragraph later.[[User:Mnnlaxer|Mnnlaxer]] ([[User talk:Mnnlaxer|talk]]) 17:11, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

== General issues ==

I first read this article after the SOTU rebuttal and was surprised to see many sources used incorrectly, dead links, partisan biographies as sources, private non-news websites used for sourcing vote totals, and other issues with this article. For an important and relevant political figure, this article is disappointing. I started making edits yesterday and will continue to do so. Here are couple of issues for discussion right off the bat:

# The way Speakers are chosen in the FL House needs to be better explained. Since the FL House has term limits of four terms (8 years), the potential Speaker is chosen for their party and class before their final fourth term arrives. Rubio was chosen as future Speaker for Republicans for the 2007-2008 term in 2003. This selection was very important to the rest of his career. More detailed info is needed.

# I propose deleting the FL House of Reps Committee assignments section. It doesn't seem relevant enough to provide a list of every one. If there were notable events that happened in those committees, then it can be stated and referenced in the text.

# The U.S. Senate section can be beefed up.

# I'm still not happy with the Personal life section, it's choppy and could include more information.

# The serial use of OurCampaigns.com could be changed to official vote totals.

# Rubio's FL House of Reps official bio doesn't need to be a major source. RS are available for that information.

# Better sourcing than OnTheIssues.org is also possible.

I welcome input and collaboration in improving this page. Thanks. [[User:Mnnlaxer|Mnnlaxer]] ([[User talk:Mnnlaxer|talk]]) 03:14, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

:The [[Marco_Rubio#Immigration|Immigration section]] is a [[WP:Copy-paste|copy and paste]] from the source. There is also an issue with relying on the Miami Herald, which is admittedly very necessary. The Herald quickly changes the "slug" in the URL of articles so that links become dead very soon. Long-term, the articles are pay-only archives. One solution is to find text from the article and search it in quotes on Google. [[User:Mnnlaxer|Mnnlaxer]] ([[User talk:Mnnlaxer|talk]]) 22:15, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand your first point. It is obviously important that he was elected speaker, but I'm having trouble following your description of the process or why it is important to explain the process in this article. It sounds like we would just be giving more detail than necessary, but if I'm missing something, please explain. I agree about committee assignments, so I've deleted them. Do you want to take a swing at Personal life and U.S. Senate? If you rely on others to do it, it might not get done. The issues of source quality sound legitimate, but I'm guessing you mentioned them (rather than fixing them) because you aren't anymore motivated than I am to do so. I've deleted the Immigration section because we cannot allow [[WP:Copyvio|copyright violations]]. -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 07:15, 20 February 2013 (UTC)