Cannabis Ruderalis

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* [[Talk:Magic: The Gathering/Archive1|Archive1]] - November 2002 through December 2004
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== Blue Fairies? ==
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Since when have fairies been a blue thing? I thought that they belonged in green domain.
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:It started in Urza's Legacy, when they decided to go anal on the color pie over flavor. Since faeries fly, they got shifted to blue, even thro they are forest creatures and should have remained green. That was retarded on Wizards part.--[[User:Bedford|Bedford]] 23:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{User:MiszaBot/config
There's been a steady stream of updates from random anonymous users lately that have included information of... somewhat tangential value. The problem is, this article has reached the point where it's already over-complete, if anything. Often times the added information is elsewhere or just not relevant enough for an encyclopedic ''summary'' of the topic. This article is already long (note the warning whenever you edit); we don't need to include ''every possible fact'' relating to the game. These can be spun-off into the sub-articles. I'm just posting this here because if you see me reverting out information shortly, it's not vandalism, it's trying to enforce concision. I think it's still possible to eventually get featured article status, but adding bloat isn't going to help.
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== None of the colors is better than the rest ==
One other issue: Can we use Gatherer's artwork? I believe that Wizards is okay with using the small versions of actual Magic cards (they get annoyed at the high-res, large versions because they can be used to print good-looking proxies, I assume). After all, practically every Magic site on the 'net uses them, especially the ones selling Magic cards, and WotC hasn't complained. Still, I'll send a formal request on off to WotC just to make sure. A Shivan Dragon or Serra Angel heading up the article would probably be more dramatic than just a card back. This sound reasonable? [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 18:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
:Sounds good, and good luck with the much-needed slimming process! [[User:Gyre|Alex]] [[User_talk:Gyre|(t)]] 23:25, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


Hi everyone. I suggest to add the information to the article that none of the colours in the game is better than the rest, that all of them have their own advantages and disadvantages. Could someone please do this? Thanks! <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/181.1.220.13|181.1.220.13]] ([[User talk:181.1.220.13#top|talk]]) 14:04, 14 October 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Thanks. I moved the Notable People list off to [[Magic: The Gathering people]], but that article is in need of some love. If someone more into the Pro Tour and the like than I am wants to have a go at that article, feel free. (Now that I think about it, I wonder if this even deserves a See Also in the Tourney organization section.... probably it's fine just on the bottom.) [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 21:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
:This is unsourced and unsubstantiated. -- [[User:Ferret|ferret]] ([[User_talk:Ferret|talk]]) 14:30, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
::Although it is arguably corect and uncontroversial. But The anon didn't specify where to add it, and why should we bother at all. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 07:35, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
:::I think this paragraph actually mostly comes down to the anon's intent:
:::"The Research and Development (R&D) team at Wizards of the Coast aimed to balance power and abilities among the five colors by using the Color Pie to differentiate the strengths and weaknesses of each. This guideline lays out the capabilities, themes, and mechanics of each color and allows for every color to have its own distinct attributes and gameplay. The Color Pie is used to ensure new cards are thematically in the correct color and do not infringe on the territory of other colors."
:::As a matter of fact "none of the colours in the game is better than the rest" is also not literally true anyway. It is certainly what Wizards strives for and maybe even achieves to a laudable degree, but then Blue is considered the most colorful in old formats by almost everybody. Also there have been standard formats where colors stood head and shoulders above the rest or a single color was barely playable. So to sum it up, I think the article is pretty much fine where it is right now in this regard. [[User:OdinFK|OdinFK]] ([[User talk:OdinFK|talk]]) 09:26, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
:Blue ;D [[User:Atomic putty? Rien!|Atomic putty? Rien! (talk) ]] ([[User talk:Atomic putty? Rien!|talk]]) 14:00, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
::Hello again. I come to revive this topic. In a certain degree, it's practically true the statement: "None of the colors is better than the rest" because if you check clearly, everyone thinks that maybe Red and Green are the best in terms of strength and direct damage. But even Blue and White aren't less just because they are defense and healing counterparts. Blue and White also have their own way of attacking which is different from Red and Green (which is direct damage at the opponent's creatures and the opponent himself) that are also useful, such as the venom cards and emptying the deck to your opponent. I believe that this statement: "None of the colors is better than the rest" should be somewhere explained thoroughly in the article because it's important. What do you guys think? Please reply! Thanks! [[Special:Contributions/190.231.171.103|190.231.171.103]] ([[User talk:190.231.171.103|talk]]) 15:11, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
:::Still waiting for a reply... [[Special:Contributions/181.110.70.239|181.110.70.239]] ([[User talk:181.110.70.239|talk]]) 08:37, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
::::Well, if you think about it "none of the colours are better than the rest" is a statement, that cannot be proven in this matter-of-fact way. Magic is too big, dynamic and diverse for such a statement to mean a whole lot. You might find statements such as "In Legacy and Vintage blue is generally considered to be the most powerful colour". This is about perception, not facts and this might be added somewhere, but it is probably outside the scope of this article here.
::::The most meaningful thing going this direction, that I can think of to put in this article, is something like "Magic designers strive to balance the power level of the colours. Due the inherent difficulty of this task perfect balance is rarely achieved, but which colour ends up being strongest shifts over time." You can probably find some remark of Mark Rosewater to that end. If you want it in the article you got to dig for yourself, though. [[User:OdinFK|OdinFK]] ([[User talk:OdinFK|talk]]) 13:32, 16 October 2023 (UTC)


== Rarity Section. ==


Hi, i recently made an image that describes the amount of common, uncommon, rare and mythic rare cards contained in Magic expansions. The italian section of Wikipedia has s rarity section that talks about these different rarities and the foil cards.


I'll leave the image here in case it can be useful to someone that wants to add that section here too.


[[File:Magic_Rarities_across_Expansions.svg|Magic Rarities across Expansions]] [[User:Icovsworld|Icovsworld]] ([[User talk:Icovsworld|talk]]) 21:52, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
== Apprentice and Magic Workstation ==


:{{Ping|Icovsworld}} It seems the data are incorrect. For instance since ''Shards of Alara'' set there are no rare cards, but you can see in [[List of Magic: The Gathering sets|this article]] that this is not the case; there are other major errors in the image though. --[[User:Phyrexian|Phyrexian]] [[User talk:Phyrexian|ɸ]] 05:45, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
My recent revert probably deserves a quick disclaimer; I'm not trying to censor their existence, but this article is long and needs chopping if anything, not info that is quite peripheral. Furthermore, 222.153.125.49's content was inserted in an almost advertising-esque way, what with the hinting about the alternatives being free and earning store credit (from what I recall, worthlessly pathetic amounts, but details). We already mention those websites at the bottom with comments on how they run leagues and the like. I also think that bringing it up in the "Expense" section is the wrong place - if we were to bring up ways around the Expense, we should really mention proxy cards before even getting into Apprentice & Magic Workstation.
::It was probably due some incorrect filtering i've done on the dataset, i didn't know about this other article with all the correct data, i'll use it and redo all the numbers correctly, thanks! [[User:Icovsworld|Icovsworld]] ([[User talk:Icovsworld|talk]]) 09:56, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
::it should be fine now! [[Special:Contributions/93.41.120.168|93.41.120.168]] ([[User talk:93.41.120.168|talk]]) 13:08, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
:Without information on how this chart is being constructed and what the data sources is, it fails [[WP:V]] and [[WP:RS]] for use on Enwiki. -- [[User:Ferret|ferret]] ([[User_talk:Ferret|talk]]) 13:59, 5 October 2023 (UTC)


== Categories ==
My suggestion would be that if we really want to have this information in here, we should just write up an article on them (possibly for each one, or maybe a "Free Online Magic: the Gathering Clients" article). Then we can mention that article in See Also, or have a sentence mention and wiki-link them when talking about Magic Online. That seem reasonable, people who want the article to mention Apprentice & Magic Workstation more?


For those familiar with the game, collecting and playing or both, the game contains cards of vampires and angels. I’d like to see this game added to Category:Vampires in games and Category:Angels in popular culture [[User:Twillisjr|Twillisjr]] ([[User talk:Twillisjr|talk]]) 17:01, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
(Oh, and as for the comment on the Pro Tour, while there is definitely relevance to that in Product & Marketing, all that information is already in the article.) [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 13:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


:Categories should be defining, per [[WP:CATDEF]]: {{tq|A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to in describing the topic}}. Can you demonstrate that sources regularly refer to the fact that M:TG contains vampires and angels? M:TG contains nearly every fantasy (and many scifi) tropes that exist. We could put a million categories for dragons, vampires, elves, dwarves, orcs, angels, gods, demons, goblins, on and on. They are not defining. -- [[User:Ferret|ferret]] ([[User_talk:Ferret|talk]]) 17:04, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
== Recent changes ==


== Life-total, or life total? ==
I think that


In the article, both versions are used. We should standardize, and use just one version. I had never seen "life total" spelled with a hyphen before reading this article, so my initial impulse would be to use the version without the hyphen. Thoughts? [[User:Wafflewombat|Wafflewombat]] ([[User talk:Wafflewombat|talk]]) 01:13, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
"the popular series of tournaments adds an element of prestige and weight to the game by virtue of the large payouts and media coverage from within the community. The system is similar to the ones used in golf, tennis and other professional sports. The company publicizes good players who win frequently in order to create a "star" system, and examples to which other players to follow and aspire."


'''Update:''' I went ahead and standardized to "life total." Feel free to revert if there's a problem with this. [[User:Wafflewombat|Wafflewombat]] ([[User talk:Wafflewombat|talk]]) 00:41, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
just transmits wizards point of view unchallenged and with no alternatives offfered, the motivations of Wizards in running tournaments cannot be judged only from their press releases. The economic reasons for running the pro tour as a marketing exercise is the most plausible reason for the support of organised play, Hasbro is a company with a responsibility to shareholders not a charity. Many people in my area resent the pro tour because they consider that they are paying for the trips overseas and big prize payouts through the high price of boosters.

The history of apprentice and wizards relationship with the program should definately be included.

"While less functional methods of online play exist, Magic: The Gathering Online has perhaps the smoothest online play component among online CCG front-ends."

ok so if your going to mention that the "less functional" methods exist then you really have to mention the cost difference between the programs. If you read this having never played online before you could easily take this sentance to mean that MTGO is strictly better.

Oh, and no need for 'perhaps' this is the smoothest, it cleary is as it was professionaly designed, is frequently updated with new functionality
etc. that is not in dispute. An artificial attempt to offer NPOV in my opinion.

The prominence of magic online over the free alternantives in this article is shocking, just because it is the official program of the company.

Mayby the number of people who use the other programs should be looked into, emailing the main leagues for their number of members, before you decide how dominant MTGO is.

The use of proxies in casual play would be an important addition.

Is a paragraph on the rancored elf controversy going to be added?

I think the alternative options for online play should be briefly mentioned (cost and quality difference) and instead of an article for magic-online we should have one article for all online magic.

I want to contribute constructvely to this article

;-) dont judge me because im just an IP address ;-)

:No, it's great that you want to contribute. As to your points, I think it ''is'' mentioned that this is entirely a marketing tool for WotC. For example: ''The DCI runs the "Pro Tour" as a series of major tournaments '''to attract interest.''''' And the comparison to tennis and so on makes it pretty clear that this is all a scheme to get gullible people to think that they, too, can be the next Kai Budde.

:As for Apprentice and the like, again, my suggestion is to just make a new article. In the "See Also" section under Magic Video Games, just add [[Freeware Magic Clients]] or whatever you decide to title the article. Then you can go wild with the whole history of that sordid relationship in proper detail. Note all the sub-articles here; things like Magic's storyline is worthy of inclusion too, just not in the main article. That said, I don't think "less functional" is unfair; Apprentice & MWS are basically glorified chat programs that happen to let you have fake cards in front where you decide what they do. Adding rule support is a ''huge'' difference. As for "the smoothest interface," I don't think that's referring to Apprentice & MWS, but rather other CCG competitors. I haven't played the competitors online versions, so I can't comment, but it does sound a bit forced, I'll agree.

:The dominance of Magic Online seems pretty unquestionable to me. There are ~700-2000 people on ''at any one time,'' as a reminder. I don't recall Apprentice IRC chatrooms being nearly that crowded, unless they've totally taken off in recent years. That said, it's kinda irrelevant; it's just that I think that Magic Online definitely "deserves" its own article.

:Lastly, as for rancored elf, that might deserve to go some place (Wizards of the Coast article, maybe?), but definitely not here. WotC has gone to court many, many times before, so this is hardly a unique thing. We don't detail all the random disputes that WotC has had with artists that are irrelevnat to the game as a whole, for example. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 02:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


hi, i was qouting

"While less functional methods of online play exist, Magic: The Gathering Online has perhaps the smoothest online play component among online CCG front-ends."

because i tried adding

"While less functional #free# methods of online play exist, Magic: The Gathering Online has perhaps the smoothest online play component among online CCG front-ends."

which was taken away

i completely agree that MTGO is by far the 'best' in terms of quality but the price difference is not included in this comparison.

obviously they are less functional but if that is the only mention of them then people don't get the full picture of the competing strengths and weakness of the different ways to play online.

"Apprentice & MWS are basically glorified chat programs that happen to let you have fake cards in front where you decide what they do. Adding rule support is a ''huge'' difference

there have been improvements from the old apprentice days, Magic Workstation has support for automatic dowload of the pictures and on the servers they host there are always enough people playing to get a type 2 game.

dont forget the vast majority of real life games are played without rules support

the most recent magic-league master had a $400 store credit prize for 1st

to be honest i just think that people should be able to get a fair picture of the main MTG online programs, it would take just a small sentance to cover that alternatives exist that while having no rules support or multiplayer are 1. free (including unlimited drafts) 2. new sets available as soon as spoiler is released.(in comparison to delayed release of sets on MTGO)

i think that under 'expense' this could be included

im not saying more people use the free programs, just that they are a significant enough minority to warrent attention, just like an article on personal computing wouldnt ignore the apple mac, so a sentence about apprentice/magic workstation next to the magic online one for balance, perhaps a sentance under expense.

so under expense i propose something along the lines of;

Some players who wish to play without paying the considerable price of obtaining the cards use 'proxies', buy the gold borderd tournament decks, or use the free magic software clients. An alternative to the considerable expense of taking part in the sanctioned competiive formats is the tournaments run by the magic leagues with prize support.

The prizes offered by wizards are mentioned and not considered blatent advertising ;-)

:Heh. Actually, I do consider them blatant advertising, and was highly tempted to remove the pathetic comments on the high prizes offered. However, since it seems I have my hands full trying to convince people such as yourself that I'm not the revert devil ;-), I eschewed doing so. I did rewrite the History section on Magic Online, as you probably noted.

:I'm not sure I agree with adding the comment on proxies. The current section is not bad, but it still seems peripheral to the point on Expense, which the vast majority of people fight by building budget decks. You also have to consider that the Expense section is concentrated on ''tournaments.'' We already mention proxies in Type I. Expense is not nearly as large an issue in casual play, since you can simply play people with similar-powered decks. That said, if we must mention the free online games here, as I said before, we do need to mention proxies as well.

:Anyway, I wrote up an article on [[Apprentice (software)]]. I considered adding the link into the See Also section, except that by all rights I'd then have to add the Microprose Shandalar game and the others in the list at [[Magic: The Gathering video games]]. Again, it goes to show that quite significant games aren't mentioned at all in the article, and heck, Magic Online is only mentioned twice. Remember, encylopedic ''summary'' of the topic; this article is still too long. More information is great, but it's better to spread it out and make it easily linkable. Anyway, I'm still considering where to link it up. If anyone wants to improve the Apprentice article, please have a go. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 04:03, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


just got to say Snowfire, i really appreciate your collaborative and engaging responses. My 'expenses' bit is pretty poorly written. I think that the various responses of players to the strange aspect of this game we love (that one can be more competitive just by paying more for better cards) is very important and budget deck are just one player response. The impact on the culture of the game from 'buying power' are very significant and in my area at least only half the resentment of netdecks is their unorginality, people often get very annoyed at being beaten by so called power rares like the infamouse jitte. Yes in many casual games especially with looser formats people can easily find matchs with decks well balanced against each other. But many 'casual spikes' love to play the latest tier one constructions against each other.

So basically the 'Expense' section is a good start but in my opinion could be longer to include non 'building on a budget' player responses such as proxies and freeware mtg clients (their seimi/quasi legal status and the intentionally very low res anti proxy gather included).

The Expense aspect in my opinion fundamentally distinguishs magic from other popular strategy games, not because it costs money but because money put in has in game implications. Compare magic to bridge, risk, chess etc. The cultural impications of mtg expense/secondary market are very important.

Sorry if this post rambles/repeats itself,thank you for your understanding and helpful responses to a very junior wikipedian.


Im back for more LOL
i don't know how to do this myself or if its has previously been decided against, but what about links to www.magiclapoon.com and ugmadness.net?
I think these comic mtg sites are very influentital (i could find the qoute from Adam Forsythe in a wizards.com article praising UGmadness)

==PhD==
Stated in summary of edit by SnowFire: "It is already implied in the article; see "history." It just isn't relevant enough to mention in the first sentence." We are only talking about three letters here, it not as if we are going into great detail listing every single paper he ever took. Hence it is hardly excessive to mention he has a PhD, when you also realise it was in combinatorial mathematics I think that provides a very interesting insight into the person who then created this game. So all in all those three letter do provide a very healthy benifit to cost ratio, probably much better than if any other three letters in the sentance. So if you are really feeling a deep need to take out three letters why not pick some others? [[User:Mathmo|Mathmo]] 22:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

:Not that it's relevant, but I am utterly tickled by the fact that Garfield is a Math Ph.D and mention it as a way to sell the game- I was a Math major myself, you see. And I love combinatorics. There is no doubt that there is a relationship between combinatorics and shuffling cards.

:That said. The reason it's not mentioned is because it isn't directly relevant to game design, and it's mentioned below in the History section anyway. As the edit summary of the person who originally removed it said (back on May 1st)- ''Removed Ph.D.; it is only appropriate to call someone doctor or reference their Ph.D. when discussing their work in that field; his combinatorial mathematics degree does not apply to game design.'' It's not an issue of efficiency; it's a matter of style. Do discussions of Woodrow Wilson's political career as governor of New Jersey and president of the United States refer to him as Prof. Wilson? Now, don't get me wrong, ''it is relevant and worthy of inclusion in the article.'' It is not quite proper to refer to him as such in the first sentence, however, for something unrelated. I'm sure interested users can scroll down a bit and see him becoming a professor, or click on his name for a biography.

:Even given that, the reason I speedy reverted it is actually because you said PHD, not Ph.D. It looks really bad to have that right on top of the article. I reverted it to Ph.D for now, but that was to avoid an edit war. Please post here and continue the debate, because I'm still not sold. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 03:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

:You said "There is no doubt that there is a relationship between combinatorics and shuffling cards", then you quoted "it is only appropriate to call someone doctor or reference their Ph.D. when discussing their work in that field; his combinatorial mathematics degree does not apply to (card) game design". Do I need to explain further the contradiction that I see here?? [[User:Mathmo|Mathmo]] 00:50, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

:And sorry about the all caps, that was an error... I DO KNOW I'M NOT MEANT TO WRITE IN ALL CAPS!!!111ONE ;p

::And you said it YOURSELF. "Shuffling cards" and "playing a game" are not the same thing. Suppose Richard's degree was in computer science. Would this make his Ph.D relevant to articles on Magic Online, but not Magic? That would be silly; even if Computer Science underlies MTGO, the ''game'' is, well, a game. Even if combinatorics underlies card shuffling, which is but one element of MTG, card shuffling is not nearly the whole of the game. The "contradiction" is exactly what I was trying to draw attention to. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 21:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

== Art ==
The Art of Magic the Gathering makes it what it is, we need to do more to display artworks and the legendary artists who made them.

[[User:Dfrg.msc|Dfrg.msc]] 09:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::The potential problem there would lie within the copywright of the artists. i mean hell i could scann the magic cards i got and put the pics up there, but are we allowed to that's the question. [[User:NeoDeGenero|NeoDeGenero]] 00:56, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


== Someone should send a letter to Wizards... ==

...and get them to let use their images on Wikipedia. Someone with a good scanner so that when they respond we can have proof. That would get copyright hounds off our back and could help in getting the article to FA status.

"Requests for permission to reproduce or distribute materials available through this Site should be mailed to: '''Legal Department, Attn: Usage Permissions Request, Wizards of the Coast, Inc., P.O. Box 707, Renton, WA 98057'''."

Can't hurt to try right? Specifically it would be nice to be able to use the 5 colors and the tap symbol along with the permission to use images of cards freely (then we could have a card showing what a land is, a creature, etc.) Additional, since it's referring to the Wizards site as a whole, we could also expand on other products Wizards is responsible for. Of course, that's if they let us. Don't see why they wouldn't though.--[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 05:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

:Already done, at least by email. They refered me to the Hasbro corporate office, which I considered going to, except then I remebered the 6-card spread already in the article and wondered if I'd been beaten to the punch. Also, by the time I got the response back, I was getting a bit exhausted at trying to improve the article- there's still a lot of nonsense updates in here as well as information repeated twice, not something we want in a concise, Featured Article. But I didn't want to do the reverts unless I had time to do the debates.

:That said, I'll send that email off to Hasbro and see what they say. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 21:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

::Update: There is no update. Wonder if I should send an inquiry to a different Hasbro email account, because this is taking suspiciously long for a response (aside from the automated "We've received your email" one). [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 04:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I made a minor edit, "Setup time" should be listed as under 3 minutes instead of 5, as players have three minutes to shuffle and present their decks before a game begins. This is in accordance with DCI rules. [[User:ChocoCid|ChocoCid]] 18:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
:Remember that "with permission" isn't sufficient for Wikipedia. It needs to be a free license, and there's a snowball's chance of that happening. Fair use is the best we can get here; fortunately there is definitely potential for that. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle|talk]]) 09:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

== magic wiki ==

hey, does any body know if there is a magic the gathering wiki in english? [[User:Bud0011|Bud0011]] 04:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
:I hope not. I hate extra wikis, they draw focus away from the main articles on Wikipedia, which is where we should really focus our attention.--[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 09:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
::But i was thinking of one that could have categories on flanking, flying and dredge. Each card would be categoriezed based on it's abilities, type, etc and then you can easily see the other cards with the same idea. [[User:Bud0011|Bud0011]] 15:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
:::To what purpose, though? You can already search for "dredge" in Gatherer, and get a list of all of the Dredge cards. --[[User:Ashenai|Ashenai]] 16:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
::::I don't know why, i thought it would be a nice service to the magic community. a place where people can can look up info on an ability or creature type.....
:::::There are better resources. In theory, a Magic wiki might be ''ok'', but only in theory. We wouldn't get nearly enough people working on it to make it work well and it'd end up as another failed project.--[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 19:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

== External links ==

I have removed every unoffical site from the external links. It was becoming a mess of forums and podcasts. The guidelines state that we should only have ONE major fansite in the links. I think we need to discuss which sites should be linked to here. We should have no more than 5 links at most IMO. --[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 11:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
: [http://www.essentialmagic.com/ essential magic] is a nice one. [[User:Bud0011|Bud0011]] 19:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
:: Not very popular, and is, frankly, a pretty horrible site (IMO). I'm against adding it. --[[User:Ashenai|Ashenai]] 19:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I put back the five most important links. I kept the Aussie and Brit sites as there were complaints about the article being too Americentric. True, the USA is more important than all other countries combined, but the Brits and Aussies can say the same thing, and this is the English language version of MTG on Wiki. MTGSalvation is the highest profile of the nonspam sites, and is a frequent source of information on upcoming sites on Wiki. The math and storyline links seemed the best of the rest. All the various Apprentice and other online versions should be spun off into a separate article.--[[User:Bedford|Bedford]] 04:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

:I think [http://magic.tcgplayer.com// Brainburst] is more high profile than MTGSalvation (of which I've never heard of).--[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 05:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello all, im new to this since ive just signed up, i use wikipedia everyday and i own one of the sites that was in the external links (mtgcast : a magic the gathering podcast network), I didnt add the link nor did i ask anyone to, it was added i guess by one of our listeners because i guess they thought we were relavent to the wiki, i guess this is a request for readmission from myself (i think this is the way it works), rather than just been 1 podcast we have 5 or 6 podcasts so only 1 link would be needed. im not complaining that the links were thinned out but we did get a lot of hits from the wiki (and not just robots) so i guess we were relavent to the wiki.. anyway this is probably the wrong way to do this but o well.. [[User:Quozt|Quozt]] 15:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
:Wikipedia is not meant as a method of advertisement. <s>On a side note, your grammar makes me cringe.</s> Please capitalize the word "I" and cut down on how many times you say "I guess".--[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 16:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

no wikipedia is meant as a source of information, someone added a link as information I am requesting its placement back, as for my grammer, this is a "talk" section, there is no need to be so rude, I am not 100% sure how this works but one person does not have editoral rights over one article do they? [[User:195.195.7.61|195.195.7.61]] 17:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello SeizureDog, I think it is highly improper and abuse of your position to degrade fellow posters not on the basis of their argument, but on English proficiency. It is also unbelievably offense and xenocentric to state "True, the USA is more important than all other countries combined..". I also agree with the above poster that by definition of Wikipedia, one person should not exert editorial rights over an article and belittle fellow users. I will be contacting the Wikipedia adminstration regarding your comments and actions. [[User:Gust0208|Gust0208]] 19:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

::"''My position''"? Since when did I have any position beyond basic user? And I didn't dismiss him because of his grammar, but because he said he "did get a lot of hits from the wiki". I think it pretty much sums up why he's wanting it put back. Even if it is in good faith, he is to bias (by nature) towards his own site and thus is not a good indicator as to if we should add the link back or not. And I might add that I don't think I was very rude, I said please after all. --[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 20:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


:::"because he said he "did get a lot of hits from the wiki". I think it pretty much sums up why he's wanting it put back."

:::Kindly please do not copy half a sentance so its sounds like something else " so i guess we were relavent to the wiki.. " was the end of it, its not about the hits, we get hits from other places, its about the fact that someone added us, and we were removed without any discussion, arnt wiki's supposed to be a place where people discuss what information is suppose to be added? rather than someone just deleting a lot of links and hard work because he/she thinks its a bit messy?
[[User:Quozt|Quozt]] 21:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

::::'''"arnt wiki's supposed to be a place where people discuss what information is suppose to be added?"''' Bingo. They were added without discussion, so they were removed without discussion. And now we are having the discussion. --[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 22:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

:Whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't go contacting the administrators immediately without talking it out first (see also [[WP:FAITH]]). SeizureDog hasn't tried to start an edit war or anything yet, and he's actively chatting in the talk page. If things go horribly wrong, sure, bring in the Cabal then, but this is waaaaaaay too early. Check out, say, [[Talk:Conservatism]] to see an example of the kind of mess that necessitates bringing in the admins, with looooooong drawn out talk page posts first and an active edit war in the article. This is small potatoes (and hopefully will stay that way!) [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 19:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

:Hi SnowFire, thank you for the link and the comments. I get a little boiled up when reading offensive comments. I will keep everything on the Talk page here and keep everything as civil as possible. [[User:Gust0208|Gust0208]] 19:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

There will not be edit war since I have not added the link back, I was requesting that whoever removed check out the link and hopefully put it back, I know a lot of links are removed (as well as articles) because they are created by the owner as advertisements, but this wasnt, I only found out about the link from a link search in google, I felt SeizureDog's comment was personal, and having only just signed up to wikipedia and learning how to use the features as I go along, this was not a "welcome to wikipedia" more a grammer attack, yes I have trouble with grammer, but this is a discussion area not a published article.

but back to the topic of my original post, the link wasnt created by me, nor any of the podcasters on our network (as far as i know), the link was relevant, on topic, yes the site is quite new but its nothing to do with age, its to do with popularity, we have links from MTGSalvation, Magic Deck Vortex, MTGPlymoth, MTGYorkshire and quite a few other magic sites, we are the highest rated unoffical podcast on iTunes/podnova/yahoo podcasts for "magic the gathering" (when I last checked), I have to leave work now, but we can continue this banter when I get home. [[User:Quozt|Quozt]] 19:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

:It's easier to discuss when everything looks nice. I apoligize if I came across as personal. But anyways, there are plenty of sites out there that are relevent and on topic for Magic, but we shouldn't include them all. We are not here to replace google, any further interest users have should be searched for elsewhere. --[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 20:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

::so how come we are only allowed to include the ones you say? I see gust added magiccards.info, an alterntive to gatherer which has a lot of extra features that gather has not and you removed that. I dont want to sound rude but you made you the boss of the links area?, if its your section thats fair enough, but if not they why not see if other people want it removed.

::A) We don't need redundancy. B) '''You didn't discuss it.''' That's what this whole thing was about in the first place. If you notice, I myself never added any links. I am only making sure there is an agreement on which links to use and that people don't just go in and add anything ''they'' think would be nice. --[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 21:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

:::B) '''You didn't discuss it.''' '''I''' "didn't discuss it because '''I''' didnt add it, you will notice that '''I''' never added any links, I was defending the link which pointed to me, and you made it personal,suggested that I only want it for advertising and suggested that I added the link myself, if I would have added the link for any reason I would have added a better description than "A Magic the gathering Podcast" --[[User:Quozt|Quozt]] 13:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

::IMHO there were not too many links on there, magic is a big game and deserves to have a choice of sites listed, like it was before, if we look about you didnt want MTGSalvation listed because you had never heard of it, well that speaks for itself. [[User:Quozt|Quozt]] 21:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

:::You know what has an even bigger fanbase? [[Star Wars]]. Know how many external links they've got? '''5'''. It's Wiki policy to keep the count down. --[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 21:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

::::What know what else they have, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Star_Wars_website] a section dedicated to fan sites why not move them there instead of deleting them?
::::: :| um. "Wikipedia does not have a category with this exact name."--[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 22:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I added today (and now see has been removed) a link to the most popular alternative magic the gathering card database, magiccards.info. It is used by a large number of players since it has a much more robust advanced search engine when compared to Gatherer. I would be interested to hear the reasoning behind its removal. It is likely much more widely used than a few of the other non-official links and is very useful to a large number of magic players. [[User:Gust0208|Gust0208]] 02:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I think magiccards.info, mtgsalvation.com, starcitygames.com, brainburst.com are the most important ones, possibly phrexia.com would be a good one, but I'm not very familiar with that. [[User:ChocoCid|ChocoCid]] 03:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
As an additional note, "The Math of Magic", while probably not notable, is a very nice analysis of probability as related to the game, and should probably stay. [[User:ChocoCid|ChocoCid]] 03:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I re-ordered the Official links based on notabilty; I think we can all agree that the main, official site should go first. That said, to prevent silly wars over which unofficial site is the most notable, I think alphabetical order is the only fair way to go there. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 16:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

:''A quick run-down through Alexa.''
*'''wizards.com''': 1,989
*'''tcgplayer.com''': 16,010
*'''mtgsalvation.com''': 47,523
*'''magiccards.info''':79,991
*'''psi-soft.co.uk''': 645,198
*'''mtgparadise.com''': 1,742,689
*'''phyrexia.com''': 2,262,473
*'''kibble.net''': 6,669,817
*'''mtgcast.com''': No data

:''What I think should '''NOT''' be on''
*'''magiccards.info''': Why the hell do we need two card search engines that are virtually indentical? Maybe really anal advanced players will use it because of one little feature, but if they are that hardcore then they'll know about it already. The external links section is for noobs who don't know about the game and want further reading. Not for the advanced players who aren't really reading the article because they already know what it's all about.
*'''mtgcast''': No data rankings and only 506 google hits for "mtgcast". And that's without filtering for uniques. Sorry, but that is NOT a notable site to link to in the least.
*'''phrexia''': last updated on NEW YEARS. Besides, better as a link at [[Magic: The Gathering storylines]]
*'''Math of magic''': It was written six years ago and is very out of date. Only very experienced players would be able to understand the cards he's talking about.--[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 20:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

:In defense of Phyrexia: I haven't even gone to the site, ever, but we need some variety among sites, which means at least one site with heavy story-related content. If there's a better alternative, then great, but we shouldn't remove Phyrexia until we can replace it.

:In defense of magiccards.info: I also have not been there for awhile, but they used to offer high-resolution scans of the cards larger than those from Gatherer. That said, <s>I don't recall seeing them there last time I looked</s>(edit: never mind, they're still there). I presume WotC did not like the ease of getting vaguely-good looking proxies printed from the site and politely asked them to stop. If they still have some, that would qualify as a reason to keep it listed (since there are savory reasons for wanting large versions of cards, such as for Photoshoppery).

::Ok, that is just an AWFUL reason to want to keep it. You want to link to them because they break copyrights by using high-res images? And "they're good to photoshop" is no freaking reason to link to them from here. --[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 21:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Sigh. Perhaps I should have been more clear. I did '''not''' say that I supported keeping magiccards.info in the list! However, you were asking what possible reason there could be to use that as opposed to Gatherer. I gave you a ''very good one'', even if may be a reason you and WotC doesn't like. The fact that such a reason exists doesn't mean it automatically qualifies for the list, though. You'll note I did not actually suggest keeping the link above (like I do for Math of Magic), but merely said something its defense. I'm neutral on the subject. (While I don't like proxies and breaking copyrights, that isn't grounds alone to not link. See [[Comparison of BitTorrent sites]] for an example of links to massive copyright vios.)

:::Seriously. I'm actually on your side for greatly shortening the list of links and the article, but jumping on people isn't going to get you allies. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 21:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

:::To expound some more on the topic. If you want a more legit reason, I almost exclusively play online. The real art in person is far more detailed than the Gatherer scans, which don't really do justice to the artist. MTGO is even worse. But I've often bought these cards perfectly legitimately on MTGO. Why shouldn't I be able to see good versions of the artwork I've paid for, if I don't misuse it (which I don't)?

:::Let me stress again that "being useful" is a ''necessary'' but not ''sufficient'' condition for being on the list. If a website has no claim to fame, then yeah, don't bother. I'm saying that magiccards.info has a reason to exist and meets that standard, which you seem to think it doesn't even get that far. That said, it's entirely possible that in spite of that, it still isn't notable enough to be on the list. And I'm cool with that, should it pan out that it isn't worthy of inclusion. Lots of websites have valid arguments in their favor yet shouldn't be on the list. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 23:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

:In defense of Math of Magic: That article was written for people ''unfamiliar with Magic''. Any Magic player, new or old, will have a step up over those people. A quick glance reveals a well-footnoted essay that explains each card at the bottom for those who don't know what Rolling Thunder is. Plus, it qualifies on novelty grounds as something interesting and different that isn't really covered in the article. Very strong keep vote from here. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 20:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

:Shouldn't you have representation of a Magic podcast? -- 207.237.26.115
::1) Don't ever remove content from a talk page. Your excising of MTGSalvation was unwarrented and petty. 2) Why should a podcast be represented? Besides the official podcast they are nothing more than players' opinions on the game, which is something unencyclopedic. [[User:Nis81|Nis81]] 14:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

:Why are MTG Paradise and Psi-soft Games even on this list? Psi-soft Games hasn't been updated since the beginning of May (and I think that's May 2005!). While I understand the desire to keep this from being Ameri-centric I think having two links to known non-American sites isn't going to make much of a difference. If we go down that route then why not have a link to a French MTG scene site, or a German scene, or a Russian scene? See where I'm going? And the unofficial links already there aren't even centered towards one country. MTGSalvation is the only other site that I would question, but it has been very important when it comes to spoilers and rumors. I wouldn't have any problem with it removed though. [[User:Nis81|Nis81]] 18:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

::This is the English language Wiki page for Magic, which is why I never bothered getting a French or German site. I personally chose MTGParadise as it has been around for years. As for the Psi-soft one, if you can find a better one for the Brits, I say go ahead. Maybe just have the Aussie one, to represent the globalness, if I may invent a new word, and forget the Brit one.--[[User:Bedford|Bedford]] 20:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Thats 3 times at least I have seen that someone different has added MTGCast to the wiki and 3 times it has been removed... how come people are allowed to add other links but just not MTGCast?, we may be too new for Pagerank or Alexia (we have an alexia ranking now), I will continue to watch this topic but I dont want this getting personal.
--[[User:Quozt|Quozt]] 18:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

: That's because podcasts really shouldn't be in here. Most podcasts are just forums for the podcast makers' opinions, which really shouldn't be part of an encyclopedia. If any podcast should be included it would be the WotC one.

== Books ==
I believe that the Article on the Storyline should be extended. I mean i love Magic and I feel that the books are a big part of it. There are no descriptions of the books and the lists dont show which sets go in order.

== Good news and bad news on Images. ==

The good news is that WotC came through on their side of the deal, much like Italy beating the Czech Republic. I got this in the email recently:

---

Dear Mr. ((My name)):

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast, Inc. (“Wizards”) for permission to use Magic: The Gathering® trading card game images (the “Images”) in the Wikipedia article you are editing at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_the_gathering.

Wizards hereby grants you permission to use several, but no more than, twenty-four (24) Images solely in the Magic: The Gathering Wikipedia article. You agree to include in the copyright/legal text of the article the following: “Images used with permission of Wizards of the Coast, Inc.” For every Image inserted in the article, insert the following text near the Image: “© Wizards of the Coast, Inc. Image used with permission.”

You also covenant and agree to ensure that in no event shall the Images be used in any obscene manner, or in any derogatory or disparaging fashion towards either a third party, its products, or services, or Wizards, its parent company, Hasbro, Inc., their affiliates, or their respective products or services.

Thank you, and if you have any questions, feel free to contact me directly at (number).

Sincerely,

Andrew Smith

Assistant Brand Manager, Magic: The Gathering

---

Sounds fair enough to me. I really doubt we'll hit the 24 card limit, and the article isn't "derogatory" or "disparaging." Do note the limitation to just this article, though.

The bad news is, uh, on our side. Wikipedia seems to be determined to throw the ball game away; when I went to upload the image with the copyright issue nicely ironed out, I got to see the following gem on the [[Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tag|licensing tag page]]:

'''''Do not upload''' images for which one of the tags in this section applies. They will be deleted.''

*{{t1|copyrighted}}—permission is given for use on Wikipedia only, and does not include third parties.

...

...

...

Presumably the policy was declared in a fit of madness brought on by entirely too much... sugar. It's okay to use "fair use" images where we ''don't'' have permission, but it's not okay to use images where we ''do'' have permission? Calling Mr. [[Kafka]], please. I checked all the various Image Use pages on Wikipedia, but none of them actually bother ''explaining'' this policy. I mean, I can guess- mirrors would be annoyed that they can only take some of Wikipedia's content- but that's their problem, not ours. Not to mention, there's always alt text.

Anyway. I uploaded the images despite this, and grudgingly called them "fairer use." After all, I always thought that we really had fair use shots on any Magic card anyway- it's not like they aren't all right there on the WotC site and countless others, and they are lo-res. I stuck in the copyright information anyway as a courtesy, despite the fact that we are technically not using it with permission, because if we had permission that would be Bad. Note that I didn't quite tag the thumbnail description on each image; the request merely asked that the copyright be near each image, so I figure that Jeweled Bird & Lord of the Pit are near enough to each other that one copyright can cover 'em both.

Two important things are left for Featured Article status:
* Triple check italics use. Should the formats be italicized? The article currently is inconsistent, sometimes italicizing and sometimes not. Also, as a reminder, ''Magic'' gets to be italicized in every reference (but not Magic Online!).
* Start the ardruous process of getting more cites in there. Generally it shouldn't be hard to use cite-webs and the WotC site (or occasionally SCG), but it's going to be annoying work.

We also need to decide if the nice 6-card montage we'd been using before should be kept. I like it, but it is a bit small unless you click on it.

As a random other comment, now that the card back is elsewhere in the article, there's an uncomfortable amount of wasted space between the infobox and the table of contents at the beginning of the article. Anyone have any ideas on how to fill that? (Previously, the trivia on the card back helped a bit there). [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 00:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

:Awesome. Through some random browsing, I found this tag: [[:Template:ConfirmationImageOTRS]]. Apparently, we need to have the evidence lodged [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PR_department at the PR department]. I suppose this makes sense, don't want people just claiming that they got permission willy nilly. This way the proof is to be had.--[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 16:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

::Yes, but Wizards will never ever ever release the artwork under the GNU Free Documentation License. That License is very close to simply giving up copyright and releasing to the public domain; there'd be nothing to stop taking the image and using it for a "Hasbro sucks" page. Heck, people could even modify the images. WotC very rationally wants to control their art... and it seems that the "closed source / reserved rights must be destroyed" faction won the debate at Wikipedia. I don't think that there's any way around simply using them as fair use and fair use only. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 18:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Ah, nevermind, I think I found what is supposed to be used. It seems that [[Template:Fair use in]] and [[Template:Withpermission]] are supposed to be used together in this case. --[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 20:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

::Nice find. I was using Fairusein before, but I added the Withpermission template... not that it does that much. Still, nice to have. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 20:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
:::Yes, {{tl|permissionandfairuse}} and the combination mentioned above work for this. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle|talk]]) 09:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

==Archiving Content==
From Jan 2005 through April 2006 (see archives at top of page) per request. <b><i><font color="#FF00FF">~Kylu ([[User:Kylu|u]]|[[User talk:Kylu|t]]) </font></i></b> 06:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

==Shivan Dragon==

Shouldn't we revert to the old back, because Shivan Dragon is merely one creature?

[[User:The Ronin|The Ronin]] 22:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

:I disagree. The card back, aside from not being particularly pretty, contains basically no information. However, seeing a Magic card tells volumes about what the game is and how it works. The card was not chosen lightly; it's an iconic and evocative card with two abilities that tell you something about how the game works, and some flavor text. In fact, I might suggest that given the choice between this long article and ''one picture'' of a Shivan Dragon card, the picture is better for 90% of all visitors of this article. It compactly tells more about the game better than paragraphs of explanation. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 00:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

::I disagree with your disagreement. The infobox should contain the most iconic picture possible, and what's more iconic than the card back? Plus, the first image should generally contain the logo, which the obverse does not have. Besides, you act like there's no other pictures in the article. It's not like a person can't just scroll down a bit to see how the obverse side of the cards look like. --[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 23:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

::True, though that cuts both ways; you can scroll down and see the card back. Plus, the opening logo more applies for things like corporations rather than specific games. *shrug* I think that the Dragon picture is far better as an initial blast of "This is Magic," but obviously if the community says otherwise, go ahead and change it. Anybody else have an opinion? [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 00:45, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::I'd say go with the card back logo we had. True, the dragon picture is nice, but as SeizureDog said, the picture should usually be something iconic, which in this case would be the back of the card, as its the most recognizable thing, which hasnt changed since the game began. [[User:DemonKyoto|DemonWeb]] 00:49, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::Agree with Snowfire. Having a representative or sample card image is very helpful, in my opinion. As noted, the back of the card, while emblematic, doesn't really provide any information. Seeing an actual card that would be used in play helps people to get a sense of context or provides information on what one of these cards would really look like. I definitely favor having the Shivan Dragon over the card back as the article image. [[User:Slordak|Slordak]] 20:35, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

== To J7731376 ==

See: [[WP:VANITY]]. Especially note these parts:
:''The insertion of links that appear to promote otherwise obscure individuals by pointing to their personal pages. (Vanity links.)''

:''The key rule is to not write about yourself, nor about the things you've done or created. If they are encyclopedic, somebody else will notice them and write an article about them.''

That second rule may be a little extreme, but it's a good general rule (the exceptions are when Steven Hawking wants to help edit the article on Hawking radiation or the like). Now, to be honest, under the old page where we had a list of 20+ links, your article probably would have fit in fine. But we've been trying to slim that down to something more manageable. Plus, blog links are ''really'' bad, since they inherently self-promote. Does this newspaper have the article up in their online archives? That would be a much more suitable link, assuming the article is judged to be worthy of the list at all. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 13:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

== To SnowFire ==

:Unfortunately, the article is not in their online archives. It appears the Phoenix only archives articles by staff writers, not freelance. If it was, I personally would much rather link to the paper's archive rather than mine.

:I fully understand the need for slimming down. And, I'm really glad that you responded to me (I would have written in the talk page, but I didn't know how yet). So, if you want to take out the article, that's cool. I think it's the only copy of it currently on line.

== Other Aspects ==

[[Image:DFRG. MSC.jpg|thumb|M:TG R0xx0RS your S0xx0RS!]]
What about card piracy, home made M:TG cards (Dante's Card Maker), computer games, alternate rules, competions, renowned cards ect?
Should some of these not be covered?

[[User:Dfrg.msc|User:Dfrg.msc]] [[Image:DFRG. MSC.jpg|45px]]

:Card piracy is not much of an issue, really. Not that I can tell, at least; if you'd like to show that it is, be my guest. Likewise homemade cards. Shandalar might merit some mention, but then again the article is big enough as it is. Maybe a page about related products would be in order.
:Tournaments are discussed here, if you'll note. Actually there is probably more about them than there really needs to be. And renowned cards are entirely uninteresting to someone who doesn't play the game.
:In short, what this article actually needs is to be trimmed, not added to.
:--[[User:Khaim|Khaim]] 12:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

== Recent shifts. ==

Netoholic and others have made some changes recently. I'll talk about the other issues later, but the image issues need to be discussed now before OrphanBot comes in and makes it more work to switch later.

-The Shivan Dragon / Card back issue has been dealt with above, and it seems roughly even. I won't revert it back to the SD since it seems to be close, but I stand by my preference for the dragon. That said, the newly uploaded version of the card back doesn't look very good; it's very dark. Should we go back to the old one?

-Netoholic said that the Jeweled Bird image "does not convey additional value." How do you come by that? Lots of players have never seen ante cards before (or only dimly recall them), and it's an example of what one is like. It gives something concrete to sit on and say "Oh, so it worked like that" as opposed to having some nebulous idea in your head (do you bet additional cards to the ante? Bidding on special cards? What?).

More generally (and including the removal of the Giant Growth picture), the guidelines for good articles do recommend a fair amount of images to spice things up. I don't see what we're gaining by reducing the number of relevant images we have. Plus, I am firmly of the opinion that the more cards that are in the article, the better. If someone is trying to understand biology, they need to actually go see some plants & animals and mess with them, not merely read about them in a text-only book. It's the same here. The best way to understand Magic is to see actual Magic cards.

-For the Patent issue, while I too have wanted to either source or remove some of the assertions there, Netoholic has removed the actual controversy part that merits it being in the "Controversies" section at all as opposed to the history. We definitely need at least some mention of the fact that WotC's patent is considered suspicious by some. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 16:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

* The card back should remain to be used, since that is an excellent way to allow consistency across all the CCG articles. The card back design of CCGs is the most distinct visual difference between game systems. Ante is described in that section, and the "Jeweled Bird" image does not add anything to it. It doesn't illustrate "ante". The "Giant Growth" picture was out of context with it's "A 'pump' spell" description. We have right above that an illustration of several cards of different types and colors. Again, it was an image that added nothing. The Patent issue is and should be covered in the [[collectible card game]] article. Magic was only the basis for the patent. WotC's licensing of the CCG mechanics and legal actions are CCG topics, not Magic topics. I am reverting. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 18:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused. Isn't it obvious what the value is? Giant Growth is an illustration of a common spell type in the game for those who haven't played it. Jeweled Bird, while not illustrating ante, certainly illustrates ''ante cards'', a distinction between Magic and most betting games (You can't show off a jack in poker and declare that there's another surprise round of betting, unlike Demonic Attorney). We could certainly write out some example ante cards in text, but the article is too long as is, and images spice things up and enhance readability while conveying the information just as well, if not better (since it also includes things like the artwork).

This was a bit ago, but I was actually thinking of eventually submitting this article for peer review after making various needed clean-ups and reference citing (but got distracted). From a linked article from [[Wikipedia:What is a featured article?]], [[User:Jengod/Some common objections to featured status and how to avoid them]]:

:(a) Try not to overwhelm the text with "too many" pictures—one image or infographic every 250 words is a good guideline. Try to space images out throughout the article and keep pictures from bumping into each other.

Now, that's obviously a guideline and not a rule, but for reference, your version of the article contains roughly ~7387 words (ignoring references, See also, and links) and 6 images for a ratio of 1 image: 1230 words. I think it could definitely do with more pictures to improve the flow; are 8 or 9 images so horrible?

I find it weird that I have to explain how these add anything to the article. Should an article on birds feature pictures of birds? Should an article on Magic cards feature pictures of Magic cards? This seems like a no-brainer. Now, if you have ''better'' suggestions of pictures that you feel would be more appropriate, that's one thing, but simply removing a bunch of images when we're hardly overweight on the image side of things seems odd (we are definitely overweight on text; if you want to chop, I recommend starting there).

As for the controversies section, you are correct that the Collectible Card Games article is the place for it, hence the Main Article template there. That said, the section there needs to explain ''something'' about the dispute, preferably a concise summary. Abruptly leaving off with "there's a controversial patent, but we're not even going to hint as to why" isn't good style and leaves people who don't click the link in the lurch. You should at least have an idea of what you're glossing over for those who aren't following every link. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] 20:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

*I entirely agree with SnowFire. I admit that the caption on Giant Growth was terrible, but that's grounds for changing/deleting the caption, not removing the image. Likewise, if you feel the section on the patent is too POV, rewrite it- but it deserves a few sentences here. --[[User:Khaim|Khaim]] 18:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

*I seem to recall Grizzly Bears as being most (non-basic land) often reprinted card (or at least tied or something). It is also iconic enough to where vanilla creatures have earned the nickname of "grizzlies". I think it should be in the article to illustrate creatures. Being a vanilla creature, it also keeps things simple and won't over complicate the explanation. --[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] 02:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 13:08, 12 April 2024

Good articleMagic: The Gathering has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
On this day... Article milestones
DateProcessResult
October 19, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
February 2, 2006Good article nomineeListed
December 2, 2008Good article reassessmentDelisted
April 28, 2009Peer reviewReviewed
August 11, 2009Good article nomineeListed
On this day... A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on August 5, 2023.
Current status: Good article

None of the colors is better than the rest[edit]

Hi everyone. I suggest to add the information to the article that none of the colours in the game is better than the rest, that all of them have their own advantages and disadvantages. Could someone please do this? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.1.220.13 (talk) 14:04, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is unsourced and unsubstantiated. -- ferret (talk) 14:30, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Although it is arguably corect and uncontroversial. But The anon didn't specify where to add it, and why should we bother at all. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:35, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think this paragraph actually mostly comes down to the anon's intent:
"The Research and Development (R&D) team at Wizards of the Coast aimed to balance power and abilities among the five colors by using the Color Pie to differentiate the strengths and weaknesses of each. This guideline lays out the capabilities, themes, and mechanics of each color and allows for every color to have its own distinct attributes and gameplay. The Color Pie is used to ensure new cards are thematically in the correct color and do not infringe on the territory of other colors."
As a matter of fact "none of the colours in the game is better than the rest" is also not literally true anyway. It is certainly what Wizards strives for and maybe even achieves to a laudable degree, but then Blue is considered the most colorful in old formats by almost everybody. Also there have been standard formats where colors stood head and shoulders above the rest or a single color was barely playable. So to sum it up, I think the article is pretty much fine where it is right now in this regard. OdinFK (talk) 09:26, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Blue ;D Atomic putty? Rien! (talk) (talk) 14:00, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello again. I come to revive this topic. In a certain degree, it's practically true the statement: "None of the colors is better than the rest" because if you check clearly, everyone thinks that maybe Red and Green are the best in terms of strength and direct damage. But even Blue and White aren't less just because they are defense and healing counterparts. Blue and White also have their own way of attacking which is different from Red and Green (which is direct damage at the opponent's creatures and the opponent himself) that are also useful, such as the venom cards and emptying the deck to your opponent. I believe that this statement: "None of the colors is better than the rest" should be somewhere explained thoroughly in the article because it's important. What do you guys think? Please reply! Thanks! 190.231.171.103 (talk) 15:11, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Still waiting for a reply... 181.110.70.239 (talk) 08:37, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if you think about it "none of the colours are better than the rest" is a statement, that cannot be proven in this matter-of-fact way. Magic is too big, dynamic and diverse for such a statement to mean a whole lot. You might find statements such as "In Legacy and Vintage blue is generally considered to be the most powerful colour". This is about perception, not facts and this might be added somewhere, but it is probably outside the scope of this article here.
The most meaningful thing going this direction, that I can think of to put in this article, is something like "Magic designers strive to balance the power level of the colours. Due the inherent difficulty of this task perfect balance is rarely achieved, but which colour ends up being strongest shifts over time." You can probably find some remark of Mark Rosewater to that end. If you want it in the article you got to dig for yourself, though. OdinFK (talk) 13:32, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rarity Section.[edit]

Hi, i recently made an image that describes the amount of common, uncommon, rare and mythic rare cards contained in Magic expansions. The italian section of Wikipedia has s rarity section that talks about these different rarities and the foil cards.

I'll leave the image here in case it can be useful to someone that wants to add that section here too.

Magic Rarities across Expansions Icovsworld (talk) 21:52, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Icovsworld: It seems the data are incorrect. For instance since Shards of Alara set there are no rare cards, but you can see in this article that this is not the case; there are other major errors in the image though. --Phyrexian ɸ 05:45, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It was probably due some incorrect filtering i've done on the dataset, i didn't know about this other article with all the correct data, i'll use it and redo all the numbers correctly, thanks! Icovsworld (talk) 09:56, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
it should be fine now! 93.41.120.168 (talk) 13:08, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Without information on how this chart is being constructed and what the data sources is, it fails WP:V and WP:RS for use on Enwiki. -- ferret (talk) 13:59, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Categories[edit]

For those familiar with the game, collecting and playing or both, the game contains cards of vampires and angels. I’d like to see this game added to Category:Vampires in games and Category:Angels in popular culture Twillisjr (talk) 17:01, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Categories should be defining, per WP:CATDEF: A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to in describing the topic. Can you demonstrate that sources regularly refer to the fact that M:TG contains vampires and angels? M:TG contains nearly every fantasy (and many scifi) tropes that exist. We could put a million categories for dragons, vampires, elves, dwarves, orcs, angels, gods, demons, goblins, on and on. They are not defining. -- ferret (talk) 17:04, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Life-total, or life total?[edit]

In the article, both versions are used. We should standardize, and use just one version. I had never seen "life total" spelled with a hyphen before reading this article, so my initial impulse would be to use the version without the hyphen. Thoughts? Wafflewombat (talk) 01:13, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I went ahead and standardized to "life total." Feel free to revert if there's a problem with this. Wafflewombat (talk) 00:41, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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