Food and drink: Cheeses Start‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Food and drink, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of food and drink related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Food and drinkWikipedia:WikiProject Food and drinkTemplate:WikiProject Food and drinkFood and drink articles Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Related taskforces: /  This article is supported by the Cheeses task force (assessed as Mid-importance). Food and Drink task list: To edit this page, select here Here are some tasks you can do for WikiProject Food and drink: Help bring these Top Importance articles currently B Status or below up to GA status: Agaricus bisporus (i.e. mushroom), Beef, Bread, Curry, Drink, Food, Ham and eggs, Soy sauce, Sushi, Yogurt Bring these Top Importance articles currently at GA status up to FA status: Beer, French cuisine, Sugar Bring these High Importance articles currently at GA status up to FA status: Apple, Burger King, Fish Participate in project-related deletion discussions. Delete unrelated trivia sections found in articles. Please review WP:Trivia and WP:Handling trivia to learn how to do this. Add the {{WikiProject Food and drink}} project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects, select here. Provide photographs and images for Category:Wikipedia requested images of food Consider joining this project's Assessment task force. List any project ideas in this section Note: These lists are transcluded from the project's tasks pages.

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2019 and 18 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Vnessvsmars.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:03, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I hope I won't mess up this whole thing as this is my first try to edit anything on Wikipedia. The article says that Macaroni and cheese is known in Germany as mac und cheese. I, being German myself, have never heard anything like that- we have a dish we call 'Nudeln mit Käse' (pasta with cheese), which is kind of the same thing as macaroni and cheese I guess. However I've never heard anyone refer to it as mac und cheese. 88.130.66.198 (talk) 12:48, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I guess I'll just delete it... 88.130.81.138 (talk) 22:15, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to be annoying but shouldn't you give some kind of source if you claim 'Mac und Cheeze' is a German expression? I think it would be stupid to delete that sentence once again, but I really have never heard anybody call this dish Mac und Cheeze and I can't find something like that on the internet. Shouldn't you give SOME kind of evidence? 88.130.80.246 (talk) 22:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can find no source or reference to this name, so I am removing it - AKeen (talk) 04:38, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence was still there. Therefore I removed it. I also never heard of this expression (I' German too). Especially the transformation from the s to the z in cheese is very unlikely if not completely against the rules in the process of "germanizing" words or expressions.

I think it is a common mistake in english speaking countries to try to connect this dish to the german "Käs-Spätzle", are which at best loosely connected to macaroni and cheese. --92.231.182.226 (talk) 15:03, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

i think this article talks too much about "kraft dinner", and needs to focus more on generic macaroni and cheese. it could also use some cleanup. Sahuagin 15:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Of course it is true that Kraft may have iconic status inCanada. However, my efforts to deal with the full range of commercially available Macaron cheese available in Britain have been removed.Perhaps they should be reinatsted?Harrypotter 07:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Purists"?? There's such thing as Mac N Cheese PURISTS?! LOL who wrote this retarded shit —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.89.137.252 (talk) 04:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me, I find your use of the word "retarded" to be hugely offensive, go and troll somewhere else, child. And don't swear on wikipedia talkpages. Zanusi 10:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of Kraft, I have heard the claim that Kraft's "Velveeta" processed cheese product was created in the 1950s as a food service product, to make it easier for restaurants to make cheese sauces and dishes like macaroni-n-cheese. Has anyone else heard this? Is there any truth to it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.242.249 (talk) 01:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree 100%. TFA presently reads like a Kraft advertisement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.105.223.181 (talk) 10:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well then start discussing real, non-processed, non-kraft recipes for mac 'n' cheese. Did they exist before K.D. was invented? If so, where did they come from? That what an encylopdia is for, kids. However, Kraft Dinner is very successful brand, and also an iconic and extremely well name which is very commonly used to describe all forms of instant mac 'n' cheese. Therefore it needs to be discussed in the article. --76.67.196.45 (talk) 14:19, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is an absolutely classic article, thanks to all the contributors! Out of interest, does the ingredients list and nutritional values for the Kraft product serve any particular purpose?Rolypole (talk) 00:36, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is merely a product plug for a company selling a product. Regardless of what Canadians call it, it's some version of macaroni and cheese or cheese macaroni, or macaroni cheese among the vast majority of English speakers and people who eat it. The idea that we'd be advertising a brand here, at all, simply because a tiny cohort of the world's macaroni cheese eating population prefers a marketing term is despicable. Please delete all references to the Kraft brand, and perma-ban all editors who have or do reference it.

I know the dish can be made as a casserole but is it really correct to call it a casserole when it is often made completly unlike a casserole maybe mentioning that as a way it can be made would be appropriate but I have only seen it as a caserole one or two times in the several hundred times I have eaten it and most recipes i find when looking for them are not casseroles--17:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shimonnyman (talk • contribs)

This article starts off: "Macaroni and cheese (referred to as macaroni cheese in the United Kingdom, and abbreviated to mac 'n' cheese in parts of the United States, as well as commonly called "Kraft Dinner" in Canada) is a common casserole, similar to the British dish cauliflower cheese. It is a combination of cooked macaroni dried pasta and a cheese sauce.[1]" Why not define what the dish is first before adding all sorts of qualifications concerning what it is called in other countries. For that matter, it doesn't have to be made with dry pasta - it can be made with fresh, undried pasta and presumably macaroni is sufficiently definitive, so even the word pasta isn't needed...so, it isn't necessarily a casserole, isn't necessarily made with dry pasta, is sufficiently described by macaroni as to not need to be doubly defined with pasta, and should be defined first before going into what obscure dish it might be similar to somewhere else. Other than that, it is a bang-up introduction... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.61.144 (talk) 20:09, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article states that Marco Polo brought pasta from Asia to Italy. This is a myth. Marco Polo returned to Venice 1295 while there are written Venecian records of Pasta from several decades prior to that. It is however possible that the Chinese inveted pasta and that it came to the area via the old silk and spice trade route. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.230.17 (talk) 02:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that the new section is heavily weighted to the Kraft brand and verging on spam, since most of the links go back to kraft. If there are no objections, I'd like to trim it back and see about getting some better sources. --Nuujinn (talk) 13:54, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do we really need a 'health concerns' section when talking about this dish? The only relevant info there is the bit about it being a low cost food with a high calorie content - there is no place for the 'tips and suggestions' about making it healthier - these concerns could be applied to ANY pasta dish with a cream/cheese based sauce and are not unique to mac and cheese. Also, this is an encyclopedia, not a how to lose weight and eat healthy guide. Frankly, as a side note the most obvious solution to cut down the calorie content is to EAT LESS of it in one setting - there is no reason to gorge yourself on it and if you do you deserve those extra calories.

Also, as others have mentioned the kraft focus is too much, is good enough to mention kraft dinner as a boxed imitation of this dish with a link going to a separate article on kraft dinner, that information does not need to be detailed here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.247.45 (talk) 23:41, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the last author. Sanborn11 (talk) 02:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One characteristic of tinned/packet macaroni cheese is a high salt level perhaps this should be mentioned. The Yowser (talk) 14:56, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, a reference work should include accurate nutritional information in any article about food. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:34, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

... is a Scots speciality. It was the only vegetarian option at most Scottish fish and chip shops, and somehow typifies teh 'no-gourment' end of Scottish cuisine. It deserves more than a brief mention. Does anyone agree? The Yowser (talk) 14:56, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

please show us where ?????????????????????????????????????? in the history of this dish, where does it originate from Britian jacob805 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.16.113.161 (talk) 18:02, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mornay sauce, the essential ingredient, other than pasta, is pretty much a French thing. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:29, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The first recorded recipe for Macaroni Cheese appears to come from the Experienced English Housekeeper, by a Mrs. Elizabeth Raffald. in 1769 in England... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.109.229.110 (talk) 18:58, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is a section which includes:

Since 2006, a number of restaurants operating on a fast-food model but serving only macaroni and cheese have opened in places such as New York City, Oakland, Portland, St. Louis, Manchester and Vancouver, Canada.

I cannot find any of these by googling and the information is unsourced. Are there any names, sources? User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:27, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently contains the following "Unlike the processed cheese products American cheese or Velveeta, cheese does not melt, but, if grated and mixed aggressively with other sauce ingredients, a sauce can be made which is in large part cheese", (my italic).

Most people will know from experience that this isn't true. Cheese does melt, although some particular types of regional cheese may tend to become lumpy on melting (eg. some Cheshires). Many cheeses can be easily melted to a smooth sauce. Also the article used as a reference for this paragraph does not support it. For these reasons I will remove this sentence.86.173.78.190 (talk) 17:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC) This IP is me (I just keep forgetting to log in sorry!)Anonymous watcher (talk) 09:35, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Although the source certainly doesn't claim that cheese is unmeltable, it does say that it's "much harder to get a smooth melt" when using normal cheese, and that many recipes use white sauce, which seems significant. Maybe it's worth restoring it and saying that instead? --McGeddon (talk) 17:22, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are actually two recipes, one with white sauce, or a cheese flavored white sauce. The other, a mixture of macaroni and cheese, is a different recipe. This is a subtlety that may in end not be clearly expressed in this article. The source above pretty much makes the situation clear. I don't have a lot of experience melting cheese; I know it will get soft; melting it is another proposition. User:Fred Bauder Talk 22:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Rules of Melting Cheese. User:Fred Bauder Talk 03:49, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Having looked again at the New York Times source article, perhaps something along the lines of "Some natural cheeses become grainy or clump when melted, but American cheese does not as it has undergone a process which has denatured its proteins. Some people find this ideal for creating an all-cheese sauce. Plain American cheese, labeled pasteurized process cheese, contains the most natural cheese and is the best for cooking. American cheese derivatives are made from cheese and additives such as acids that promote melting" This contains all the relevant information on this matter from the source article, but it may need a bit of work on the wording to avoid plagiarism. I'm not minded to do this myself as I'm not sure the article needs much more on the alternative non-white-sauce variation.Anonymous watcher (talk) 09:56, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've condensed the history section considerably. I removed much about the history and industrialization of pasta manufacture; this info belongs in the macaroni article, but only clutters up the mac and cheese article. Ditto cheese manufacture. A lot of it was also unsourced, or sourced but quoted erroneously. If I left it in, I tried to edit the info to reflect what the source says. Some statements still lack citation.

The article is lacking early 20th century history of this dish. According to sources, it was fashionable in the 18th century but did not become popular with the masses when the ingredients became affordable in the 19th century. What caused the popularity to surge in the 20th c.? I hate to say it, considering earlier comments on this page, but I suspect it was due to the affordability of Kraft Dinner. Or possibly Velveeta. But that's only my guess. If anyone can provide well-sourced info on mac and cheese in the 20th c., I think it would add to the article. Richigi (talk) 16:50, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone in the US who can find the sources of this story more easily than I can, introduce this into the article, please. http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=18052#more-18052 I don't want to do it as I'm not familiar with the nuances of US politics. MidlandLinda (talk) 19:09, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Macaroni and cheese/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

This is an important page which is proceeding well. However it is still very much restricted to the ENglish speaking world. I would give it B status.Harrypotter 20:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 20:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 22:43, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Recently, an IP removed some text: "Often, packaged macaroni and cheese mixes contain ingredients that are not certified as kosher. This is because many cheese products include rennet, which is a meat by-product and thus cannot be combined with dairy in kosher food. Many brands are marketed with healthier ingredients including organic, lower sodium, lower fat, whole wheat, gluten-free, and vegan varieties."[2]

The editor did not explain their deletion, so it was restored. I don't know why it was removed (an edit summary is always a good idea). That said, I think the section has problems.

First is the source "Eat This, Not That". Is it a reliable source? I see no indication that it is, only bold, unsupported claims that they (whoever they might be...) are solely responsible for restaurant chains starting to post nutritional information and add healthier options, the website is "the definitive resource" for a laundry list of things and that they are "the world’s leading authority" on several things as well. As to who writes it, whether there is editorial oversight and a reputation for fact checking and accuracy, I see no indication. It would seem the site is delivered engraved on stone tablets and Moses codes the pages.

As for the content, yes, many M&C mixes are not certified kosher. Lots of foods are not certified kosher (various cheeses, pizzas, hot dogs, sausages, salads, sodas, brands of milk, cheese curls, tacos, etc.). Most articles on these items do not discuss whether or not, for example, Dr Pepper is kosher. Those interested in whether or not a product is kosher -- especially one with cheese in it -- don't need this article to specify that some are and some are not. Further, the lengthy list of dietary concerns that might be an issue for M&C (halal, vegetarian/vegan, macrobiotic, low sodium/fat/carb, gluten free, low remainder, high fiber, etc.) leave open the question of why this non-answer on one concern is included.

Next is the confused list of supposedly "healthier ingredients". Organic ingredients are those that are produced in ways that are intended to be sustainable and less harmful for the environment -- the consumer's health is not part of the goal. "Healthier" is not justified here.

Lower sodium diets may be healthier for some consumers. For some people, it's not an issue. For a small minority, a higher sodium diet is recommended. "Healthier" is not justified here. "Lower fat" is similar.

"Gluten-free", despite the current fad and pseudo-science, is "healthier" for those with coeliac disease. Diagnosed rates of coeliac disease are similar to those of PKU. Is there phenylalanine in that M&C? Peanuts? Sugar? MSG? Milk?

If you are concerned about any of these, we currently mention that some of the concerns are addressed by some brands. As for the concerns we don't currently mention, the situation is... exactly the same. Wikipedia can't tell you that M&C isn't a concern for your particular dietary concern and we can't tell you that it is a concern. Instead, we say that some might not be a concern for some. Basically, if you have a dietary concern (religious, health, cultural, whatever), check the label, without regard to what the food is.

This section is poorly sourced and really doesn't say much of anything. - SummerPhD^v2.0 17:57, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As clearly stated in the article, macaroni cheese (in its current form) originated in England. I propose therefore using the English terminology (macaroni cheese) as the page title, rather than the American (macaroni and cheese) or Jamaican (macaroni pie). If nobody objects I'll make the move. Marthiemoo (talk) 23:35, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So, Thomas Paine should be in British English? - SummerPhD^v2.0 01:04, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, in that case it's clear that Thomas Paine is an important and recognised part of US culture and history. He is not viewed in the UK as playing an equally important role for Norfolk. Marthiemoo (talk) 15:34, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This has been proposed previously, as you might have noticed if you read the talk page a bit. You don't seem to have made any better arguments for moving it than were made the last time this came up, so it looks like that WP:RETAIN still applies. – Bardbom (talk) 23:51, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, the archived section for some reason isn't showing up on the mobile version of the site on my phone, so though I could see there was a topic heading I couldn't see anything under it. Also, no reason to get arsey about it. I wasn't aware that a previous WP:TIES argument had been made. I think that argument is weak as it seems to basically come down to population size, which is a little odd. If a dish is thought of as being a typical part of national cuisine by two countries, it seems reasonable that the country in which it originated should be given priority of ownership. Marthiemoo (talk) 15:31, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Where I live in western NC, there is a reasonably common variation that adds a layer of tomato sauce to a pan of oven cooked macaroni and cheese. This is the version sold at several homestyle restaurants. It is well enough known that no one thinks it particularly odd, but unusual enough that the restaurants inform the customers when it is ordered. Is this sort of thing known outside of my area? --Khajidha (talk) 14:26, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The combination of tomato and cheese produces the umami flavor and is very common (think pizza, adding cheese to pasta with tomato sauce, ketchup on cheeseburger, etc.). So tomatoes in some form is not at all surprising.

That said, we need a reliable source discussing it to add anything here. (Adding stewed tomatoes is reasonably common around here.) - SummerPhD^v2.0 20:19, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t know about adding stewed tomatoes or tomato sauce or ketchup but I often slice tomatoes, salt and pepper them, and serve and eat them alongside my macaroni cheese (and I’m English)Overlordnat1 (talk) 09:16, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently states that macaroni and cheese "is a dish of English origin" and that "It originated in Italy". In the History section an Italian and an English recipe from the 14th century are mentioned, but not which was earlier. What is the history, exactly? Can the first paragraph and the History section be clarified? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaĉjo (talk • contribs) 20:08, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the historical claims from the lead, where they were (as you say) confusing and contradictory. One problem with the article is that it never quite defines what it means by "macaroni and cheese". Is it any dish made with pasta and cheese? Or only those with a sauce involving cheese? --Macrakis (talk) 22:08, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Velella: maybe Category:American cuisine is actually more appropriate for this page than Category:Soul food. The article discusses general U.S. history of the dish but not association with soul food. It seems to me like it's part of soul food because soul food draws on the broader U.S. cuisine. I would switch out the one category for the other, but thought I'd check in with you first. Ibadibam (talk) 19:21, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't it already in the American pasta dishes category? Spudlace (talk) 20:38, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have no view on Category:Soul food. Perhaps I don't have a soul. My only concern was to not have super categories when there is already a sub-category.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   21:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Spudlace, I completely missed that! I withdraw my suggestion. Ibadibam (talk) 22:09, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]