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There is no mention of normal dose. If someone is caught with 50 grams of extasy is it a lot? How many dose can one make from pure 1 gram of MDMA?--RicHard-59 (talk) 21:45, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Channel 4's Drugs Live programme in 2012 used single doses of 83mg in the experiment, which would be almost exactly a twelfth of a gramme, and broadly in line with the average active content in street pills at the time and previously. In the UK someone caught with 50 grammes (i.e. approximately 600 doses, with a street value of at least £2,000) would almost certainly be charged with possession with intent to supply (others), as opposed to simple possession for personal use. Nick Cooper (talk) 12:45, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Shulgin's notes [1] suggest a dosage of 80-150mg (his experiments range from 60-200mg). I have frequently heard 100mg, which is in agreement and is also a nice round number: 1 gram = 10 doses. Pills typically have a mass around 100mg, but purity varies widely so it's difficult to equate pills to doses. The legal definition of a dose, if used in a criminal prosecution, might be something else entirely but it should be defined in statute or regulation. Simishag (talk) 19:44, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect the 83mg has its origin in it presumably being easier to separate a supposed gramme of powder into twelve "by eye," than it is to divide it into ten. Nick Cooper (talk) 13:06, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The source for this statement is a blog post with no references. http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/overdoses-of-molly-led-to-electric-zoo-deaths/?_r=0

I personally question the veracity of the statement as well as the appropriateness of using a blog post as the basis of fact in a wikipedia entry. 66.64.59.58 (talk) 16:54, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty much every account of dance culture and MDMA use in the UK notes that in Europe it surfaced in Ibiza first (e.g. Saunders, C0llin, and Garratt). Even so, there is a difference between a regular blog, and a New York Times blog. Nick Cooper (talk) 22:27, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The following is meaningless, scientific-sounding gabble, and ought to be removed:

"The positive effects were so large as to achieve statistical significance in spite of the small size of the trials (In one study, the rate of clinical response was 10/12 (83%) in the active treatment group versus 2/8 (25%) in the placebo group. In the other study, a p-score of 1.4% was found for the PDS scale and 1.6% for the CAP scale one year after treatment. A p-score of 5% or less is often considered statistically significant, and the effect found needs to be larger with smaller studies to have statistical significance, ceteris paribus, in order to correct for sample size.) In the second study, positive effect in CAP scale immediately after treatment did not achieve statistical significance (p=6.6%), but may do so with a larger sample size. The patients treated with two or three sessions of MDMA-psychotherapy showed greater improvement than the ones treated by placebo-psychotherapy or placebo-inactive dose of MDMA.[18] This improvement was generally maintained on a follow-up several years later." Dratman (talk) 13:43, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Like the title says, I'm going to cut out a lot of the medical content which fails WP:MEDRS and rewrite/resource a few parts. The health effects of MDMA article is redundant with what the article is supposed to include per WP:MEDMOS, so I'm going to merge that article into this one after cutting out its inadequately sourced content. I expect I'll get around to it sometime over the next month or so. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 06:22, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Others to add:

• ^[1]
• http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/02791072.2014.873690 ^[2]
• http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/hup.2390 ^[3]
• http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/jcph.266 ^[4]
• http://dx.doi.org/10.7748/en2014.02.21.9.32.e1128 ^[5]
• http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.lfs.2013.07.014 ^[6]

Adverse + OD

• ^[7]
• ^[8]

PDynamics

• VMAT2^[9]
• TAAR1^[10]

PKinetics+Toxicity

• ^[11]

Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained)

Please do me a favor and bring something up on the talkpage - either in this thread or a new one - before reverting a change I make. More than likely I intend to rewrite/resource a section if I completely delete one. Content that I remove is usually indicated for a particular reason in an edit summary.

This also isn't the first time I've rapidly rewritten a high-traffic article: e.g., methamphetamine (now a GA) and nootropic. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 14:16, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your work on this article (and on previous ones)! DMacks (talk) 14:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 20:36, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Butchering" is the right word, especially as regards the "Legal status" section and particularly the "United Kingdom" subsection. I would note that in the process you deleted everything about the ACMD's recommendations on the reclassification of MDMA (discounting them as "court battles and random controversy"), which seems convenient to the agenda you're apparently pushing. Nick Cooper (talk) 09:22, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have virtually no interest in this article topic. If it didn't have abhorrently shitty sources, I wouldn't be editing it. I'm only doing this since I already have a lot of familiarity with MDMA from significantly revising/expanding articles on its pharmacology and on other substituted amphetamines.

A drug legal status section is simply supposed to quickly summarize the global legal status as a controlled substance, with selected countries where editors have supplied supporting citations. It's not a place to cover current perspectives on the legality of drugs. That material would go into a history/society/culture section, and I'm not opposed to covering that material there (without massive blockquotes in the text); that said, I haven't decided whether or not to merge this page's section with history and culture of substituted amphetamines yet though. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 10:36, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Seppi that the Legal section was largely a long winded argument that MDMA is over-regulated and was way out of touch with WP:NPOV. The article overall was riddled with advocacy and the use of non-reliable sources (Dancesafe.org???, Ectascydata.org???, theDEA.org??? Seriously?). I think there is room for discussion of specific changes, but the overall need for a cleanup is beyond question.

Seppi has a great track record as an editor of CNS drug related articles and I'm pleased to see him taking this task on. Formerly 98 (talk) 12:39, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On what grounds are those sites "non-reliable" in the context that they were originally cited? Or do you take the view that any site that does not take a prohibitionist stance is inherently unreliable? Whether you like it or not, the legal status of MDMA is questioned in a number of countries, not least by the UK government's advisory body. We should refelect such debate, not pander to a line of "Drugs are bad, m'kay?" Nick Cooper (talk) 12:52, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:MEDRS - the answer to your first two questions - is why it's not ok to cite "Bob's I love ecstasy blog" as a reference for medical information on MDMA. I'm not even remotely interested in its legal status and don't even want to edit content on that - I'm not here to write a DARE pamphlet, just an accurate description of the drug effects and the current evidence of its therapeutic potential. MDMA is neurotoxic, so it borks your brain over the long term; the article will reflect that. MDMA is also a euphoriant, so it makes you feel really good - the article will reflect that too. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 13:41, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Take a look at WP:MEDRS. Secondary sources published in peer reviewed medical journals or medical textbooks are required for health related content. And advocacy sites and blogs fail even the lower standard of WP:RS Formerly 98 (talk) 13:32, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also suggest taking a look at WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. The central concept is that Wikipedia describes controversies, it does not take sides in them. The POVs of each side are given space in proportion to their predominance among experts. Selectively hunting down and quoting documents suggesting that MDMA is over-regulated violates both of these. And no, its not "Mmm, drugs are bad, ok?' I would be equally opposed to an overdrawn discussion endlessly restating the risks of these drugs and selectively quoting those who feel that greater enforcement activity is warranted. We're not here to write editorials. M'kay? 2605:E000:1C0C:80F7:1DD5:6CD2:EB00:6646 (talk) 14:01, 17 October 2014 (UTC)apologies, forgot to login Formerly 98 (talk) 14:49, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So you're making a value judgement that other editors have been "Selectively hunting down and quoting documents suggesting that MDMA is over-regulated"? Like the ACMD report, you mean? Nick Cooper (talk) 15:20, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So which sites are your characterising as "Bob's I love ecstasy blog" and why? You claim that you are "not even remotely interested in its legal status and don't even want to edit content on that" when that's precisely what you have done. The scope of this page has long been far wider than, "an accurate description of the drug effects and the current evidence of its therapeutic potential," but you've arbitrary decided to narrow the focus. Nick Cooper (talk) 15:20, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For all intents and purposes, I'm characterizing all of the above, and anything which is not recently published by a governmental drug agency/entity, a credible professional medical entity, or an academic authority in pharmacology, as "Bob's I love ecstasy blog." Why? Because all those things (i.e., the vast majority of possible things you could cite) fail WP:MEDRS, which is an extremely strict standard. Edit: you misunderstand my meaning; my only objective in this article is to bring that part of this article (drug effects and therapeutic potential) up-to-date. I'm not going to work on the rest other than to fix grammar/flow issues, make appearance tweaks, and possibly add citations to the non-medical sections. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 15:37, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

...forgot to add: and delete massive blockquotes. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 15:58, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds to me that both you and Formerly 98 have got a load of ready made excuses for deleting whatever you don't like, and are doing it in a manner that makes it virtually impossible for any other editor to proper scrutinise your edits.

You're still ignoring the question as to why you eviscerated the "Legal status" section while claiming to be "not even remotely interested in its legal status and don't even want to edit content on that." Nick Cooper (talk) 08:40, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Read the highlighted text.

If you feel we're overzealously enforcing WP:MEDRS by removing sources in the article, you can seek a second opinion from other medical project editors if you like. There's currently a section on this article on the project talkpage if you want to reply under it: WT:MED#3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine merge. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 12:47, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

By the time I'm done sourcing and copyediting the article, it won't look much different than its current revision. I don't intend to change the layout or delete content from any additional sections, except in pharmacokinetics, at the moment; pharmacokinetics contains some trivial material - also needs medical sources. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 16:22, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It may have escaped your notice, but this page is within the scope of a number projects, and one doesn't get to dictate that the page can only conform to its own rules. Nick Cooper (talk) 08:40, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

MEDRS is not just a policy of the Medicine Project, but of Wikipedia overall. Take a look at WP:RS Formerly 98 (talk) 11:50, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

--83.80.250.145 (talk) 19:30, 22 August 2014 (UTC) Hallo,[reply]

What I miss in most drug-related texts is the "set". By this I mean to say that it is very important who is taking the drug and under which circumstances. In some cases the effect of the drug can be detrimental and long-lasting. It is like the Jellinek Clinic in Holland in former website articles said: You are your own laboratory rabbit!

Sincerely,

J.P. Clifford

At the beginning of the section MDMA#Long-term effects on serotonin and dopamine, there is a red link that goes to serotonin reuptake transporter. Corresponding articles already exist at serotonin and reuptake transporter (which redirects to monoamine transporter), and it could be fixed. 50.32.195.213 (talk) 23:49, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done AlanS (talk) 03:00, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

119.93.155.200 (talk) 01:59, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You have not specified an edit and I have therefore closed the request. - Camyoung54 ^talk 02:56, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First paragraph, second and third lines need to be changed...they confuse ecstasy, pure MDMA, and Molly

MDMA is a chemical.

Molly is **PURE** MDMA that is made to be used as a recreational drug.

Ecstasy is **adulterated** MDMA, usually "cut" with methamphetimines, cocaine, acid, or cheap heroin

MDMA = chemical

Molly = pure MDMA as a recreational drug

Ecstasy = adulterated MDMA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.52.34 (talk) 19:03, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I'm aging myself here, but as I knew things 15 years ago in Los Angeles, "Molly" meant MDMA powder (presumably relatively pure) and "Ecstasy" (or "E" or "X" or "XTC" or whatever) meant pressed MDMA pills (again, presumably relatively pure). Today, "Ecstasy" (et al) means just about anything, and "Molly"... well, I'm not really sure what that means. "MDMA" and/or "3,4-methylenedioxymethampehtamine" is a very distinct and clear representation. Anything else is just an uncited street name, whose meaning can vary widely by location. Still, "Ecstasy" has pretty much always implied "MDMA". Sources for/against would be welcome. Simishag (talk) 18:58, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The "research"-paragraph is biased to the point of being blatantly wrong. The research on MDMA - and especially MDMA as an adjunct in psychotherapy - is divided into proponents and repudiators, with not much common sense in the middle ground. At the moment the paragraph pretty much relies on the papers of one scientist (A.C. Parrott) who is known as a radical prohibitionist and alarmist when it comes to psychoactive substances (while actually being clueless about psychotherapy). He has devoted much of his academic career to literally "fight ecstasy". That is not to say that his position is invalid but simply that his position is unbalanced - he simply has the position of a researcher on the adverse effects of "Ecstasy"-abuse.

The state of the research on MDMA in psychotherapy is not so dubious as the paragraph implies. This also includes the dangers associated with clinical application of MDMA. There is sufficient published high quality info on those topics to give a more balanced view on those issues. Unfortunately I have no time for working on this... :(