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Error: The code letter muh-im for the topic area in this contentious topics talk notice is not recognised or declared. Please check the documentation.

1. Their is no POV fork with this article, because i have created 90% of the expeditions mentioned on that list, i do think the reasons given for each expedition match what the main article says, and i have rechecked most articles i created
2. Some might say, "why did you separate the casualties into Muslim and Non-Muslim, this might raise eyebrows if religious differences weren't underlying the expeditions", i did this because (1) The sources i used seperate them like this. they give 1 figure for Muslims casualties, and rest for the party which was attacked. (2) The word "enemy" suggests that the opposing party was AGAINST Muhammad or OPPOSING him, which was not the case for all those military expeditions. For example, according to this Muslim scholar, 80% of Muhammad's expeditions were offensive http://military.hawarey.org/military_english.htm , hope this explains it.
3. Regarding the duplicate refs, there are quite a lot, and i was hoping a bot (called YOBOT) would fix those problems after i posted the article--Misconceptions2 (talk) 22:05, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

i have reverted a column about the commander on the muslim side because:
1) sometimes there was more than 1 commander
2) only the sariyyah had sifferent commanders, the ghzawah all had muhammad as the commander
3) the data wasnt referenced, lets be consistant, if were gonna add somethign add refs
4) it makes column too wide (futhermore if somone wants to know the commander they can from the article, so there is an alternative, this is not a reason to remove but i am just pointing out alternatives)
5) Not all expeditions had commanders, some were just a group of raiding parties. others were muslims who were just ambushed--Misconceptions2 (talk) 23:03, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. List of expeditions of Muhammed:

I have reasons to believe that the article's info. is false and biased. Most references are unreliable sources. Zakat isn't a tax. Muslims are forbidden from attacking Women,Children,priests and the disabled. I took a look at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Mecca and found that the casualties provided by the article " List of expeditions of Muhammed " don't match with the "Occupation of Mecca" article. the Last battle "Expedition of usama bin zayed" has written on it" Local population "slaughtered" by Muslims, "destroying, burning and taking as many captives as they could" according to Moshe Gil of Cambridge University[338]" Muslims don't slaughter because as I said before, Muslims are forbidden from attacking Women,children,priests,and the disabled. "The killing of innocent non-combatants is forbidden. According to Sunni tradition, ‘Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first Caliph, gave these instructions to his armies: “I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old, or the infirm; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town . . . ” (Malik’s Muwatta’, “Kitab al-Jihad.”)". Quran 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”. I will provide more information if requested. Quran.com is my reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.41.219.126 (talk) 20:41, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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This article recreates the same material of another article that was twice deleted: "List of killings of Muhammad" (see deletion discussions, [1] [2]). Many of the issues mentioned in the previous discussions apply here as well (mainly poor and misrepresented sources). Also the creator of both articles, Misconception2, has a long history of meatpuppetry and sockpuppetry in the Muhammad topic area. I wouldn't trust his summary of primary/secondary sources. I took a brief look at this article and noticed that the "reason" column lacks context and relies on primary sources. We don't usually present similar information in a list form. The primary sources are also problematic. We should avoid turning what is said to be alleged, disputed, rumored in the primary sources into fact. I suggest we reduce this article to a simple list of expeditions, and leave the complex/disputed information to individual battle pages. Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 14:08, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is false. Those 2 articles are completely different--Misconceptions2 (talk) 05:16, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Wiqi55: When I stumbled on this article, I thought I’ve seen a similar list and was confident that it was deleted a long time ago. Turns out, this user made cosmetic changes to the original article to be able to sneak it in. It remains a massive list of purposeful distortions that I don’t know where to start, but consider the following description for the demise of Banu Qurayza:

Attack Banu Qurayza because according to Muslim tradition he had been ordered to do so by the angel Gabriel. Al-Waqidi claims Muhammad had a treaty with the tribe which was torn apart. Stillman and Watt deny the authenticity of al-Waqidi. Al-Waqidi has been frequently criticized by Muslim writers, who claim that he is unreliable.

At this point, I’m not sure if it makes more sense to invest time correcting the information here or to simply wipe it all out and start over. Including @CounterTime: and @Eperoton: who are knowledgeable in Islamic history. Al-Andalusi (talk) 18:53, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Al-Andalusi: I generally agree with your points and those of @Wiqi55:, I just want to add an important comment: Per WP:MOS/Islam, the authenticity of reports about prophetic events should be mentioned when such sources are relied upon. However none of that is respected in this particular article, in point of fact, we have an outright violation of that policy that exceeded all of my expectations. Let's take the example you gave, it references al-Waqidi's Maghāzī. However, he is unreliable, Ibn Hanbal denounced him as a liar, and according to al-Ghunaimi, al-Waqidi is considered as one of "the most famous four, among the many, fabricators of hadith". (WAR IN ISLAMIC LAW: JUSTIFICATIONS AND REGULATIONS By Ahmed Mohsen Al-Dawoody, p. 23.) Many references are also dubious, being entirely unspecific, without even mentioning the abundant WP:SYNTHESIS. 20:02, 25 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Al-Andalusi and CounterTime: I think we could potentially have a timeline article about Muhammad's military campaigns along the lines of List of Napoleonic battles and List of World War I battles, although, as others have pointed out, the problems of historicity are of an entirely different nature. Modern historians disagree with each other about whether these events even happened, let alone on how to interpret their motivations. They also disagree with traditional Islamic scholars, who further disagree among themselves. At a minimum, I would suggest the following steps to address the most serious problems with the current article:

1. Delete the columns "Muhammad's order and reason for expedition" and "Casualties description", which have too many sourcing problems and just don't make sense here. If a reader wants to know more about the battle, they'll go to the corresponding article and read the historical analysis that should be given there.
2. Delete any rows for which no RSs are given (meaning modern mainstream historians and not primary sources, Mubarakpuri or Muir).
3. Delete rows like "Assassination of Abu Afak" which don't belong in a list of battles or even "expeditions".
4. Add a column called "Historicity", where we can indicate how the authenticity of the reports is judged by modern historians and Islamic tradition.

Eperoton (talk) 20:40, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: One question about the fourth step, what about cases in which we can't possibly analyze the authenticity?

20:57, 25 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: It's not our job to analyze it, but you probably meant something else. Could you clarify your question? Eperoton (talk) 21:01, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: For example, let's say we have an account in Ibn Sa'd's Tabaqat, how do we go about finding the authenticity? (of course, it's not us who are going to analyze it, since that would constitute WP:SYNTHESIS, instead we should find out RSs that discuss the authenticity, but what to do in cases in which we can't find an RS that discuss that?)

21:38, 25 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: If an event isn't discussed in any RSs, it shouldn't be on this list. Actually, on second thought, perhaps we don't need that column. For events whose historicity is accepted by some but not others, the details can be left to the appropriate article. Eperoton (talk) 21:45, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: Another thing, this article is about "expeditions of Muhammad", so it should naturally only include ghazawat in which Muhammad participated in, however the current list contains "expeditions which he ordered but did not take part" (73 in number). Should they be included in the list? 22:38, 25 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: I'm not sure, but the current title doesn't fit the current content well. Either the article should be renamed to something like "List of Muslim expeditions under Muhammad" or the expeditions in which he didn't take part should be removed. Eperoton (talk) 22:54, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Wiqi55:, @Al-Andalusi:, do you agree with the suggestions made by Eperoton? 12:57, 26 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)[reply]

@Wiqi55: BTW I agree with your assessment that some citations are completely misleading, here's an example:

Muḥammad Ibn ʻAbd al-Wahhāb, Mukhtaṣar zād al-maʻād, p. 345.

However when looking at the meant book we find that in page 345 we only have a table of contents, and nothing of it supports what was found in the article.

12:57, 26 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Thanks user:CounterTime, user:Wiqi55, user:Eperoton, and User:Al-Andalusi. It seems the issues with this article goes far beyond what is mentioned here, and stems off into most of the articles themselves. The user, Misconceptions2 has a history of supporting biased and non-neutral sources, which are inherently non-academic, violate a multitude of WP's policies surrounding neutrality, and are inaccurate representations of the sources indicated. I would recommend a thorough analysis of the articles in the list themselves as well. I also think that the time and effort CounterTime put into ridding the article of it's inherent flaws should not go to waste. Xtremedood (talk) 08:07, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The source: "Gabriel, Richard A. (2008), Muhammad, Islam's first great general, University of Oklahoma Press, p. 73, ISBN 978-0-8061-3860-2"
Does not say: "The Meccans had sold property Muslims left behind after the Hijra and invested it in the caravans" His edit therefore has been reverted. Find a reliable source that says that Muslim property was stolen and sold, and that the purpose of the raid was to take back stolen property, before adding back these comments. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 02:48, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• See before and after , article went from 110kb to 30kb :

What it used to be like
What it was changed to by group of Muslims

• This is a controversial Topic on Islam. I feel the decision to delete data on this topic by 3 people: user:Eperoton, User:Al-Andalusi, User:CounterTime should be looked at again. This is because I worry there maybe a conflict of interest since they are Muslim and the article is about their religion.
• I worry because the decision to remove the data was made entirely by the above 3 people ALONE and since all 3 are Muslims there is possible bias?
• The article had a list of 100 battles of Muhammad. They changed it so it has about 20. What happened to the other 80. Are they not relevant?
• I want to have this decision looked at again right here. Whether so much data should have been removed with the input of the wider community this time? A controversial article like this warrants it, instead of a discussion amongst a small demographic. I feel the original discussion could only have gone 1 way. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 05:06, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

--Misconceptions2 (talk) 04:43, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: The changes were made based on a consensus achieved in the section "Multiple issues" above. You are certainly welcome to join the debate and pursue WP:DR. Please start by addressing the policy issues raised in that discussion. Thanks. Eperoton (talk) 10:02, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: Please read the previous discussion and the consensus reached therein, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues

If you have any objections to any point there please discuss it in that particular thread. We'll make changes after reaching a consensus. But in the time being, we'll simple get back to the previous version.

Regards,

20:20, 14 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Cant you see as of RIGHT now there is no consensus. This will turn into an edit war the way its going. I have invited many people who edited this article to comment here. I hope it does not turn into a big edit war.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 20:43, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: You didn't question, object or address anything from this discussion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues so we can't even speak of there being a consensus (in which you're involved) or not. Please discuss there. I also hope that this wont turn into an edit war. 22:13, 14 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Summary as of 14-03-2016

@CounterTime, So far you have 3 people against mass changes you made:

• user:Misconceptions2
• user:Edward321
• user:Sajithgayashan

I dont know how many people you have who are FOR the changes as you went ahead and made changes which am not even sure user:Al-Andalusi, user:Eperoton agree with. You went above and beyond. So you hardly have a consensus now.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 23:58, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: Changes are made only when consensus is made, simple. I only edited this page only after discussing here and coming into a common agreement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues

If you want to make changes please discuss there. Simple reverts that do not even mention an edit summary are simply examples of edit warring rather than attempts at making constructive criticism, they aren't argument either as you make it look like.

AGAIN PLEASE DISCUSS HERE IF YOU HAVE ANY OBJECTIONS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues

Thanks in advance.

00:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Misconceptions2: To elaborate on CounterTime's comment, note that WP:DR is achieved by discussion rather than counting votes. So far, neither you nor the other two editors who have attempted to reinsert the disputed content have addressed the substance of objections in the "Multiple issues" section above. I'm not yet touching the article because I'm interpreting WP:BRD in favor of your long-standing version despite the lapse of time since CounterTime's edits, but remember that WP:ONUS for achieving consensus rests with the party seeking inclusion of disputed content. I propose to you, Sajithgayashan and Edward321 to stop edit warring and start advancing substantive arguments. Eperoton (talk) 00:12, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Misconceptions2's only argument is that Muslims should not be able to write on such articles, because they are Muslims. This is a ridiculous personal attack, which shows his bias and animosity to this group of people. This is clearly in violation of WP:PA. In reality, the bias comes from Misconceptions2 himself, whose works are strongly correlated with content from anti-Islamic hate sites like WikiIslam.net [3], [4]. CounterTime was correct in removing the irrelevant materials, which are not related to the article. Prophet Muhammad's ﷺ military life should be the focus of such an article, not the campaigns of others. Also, the articles published by Misconceptions2, which are numerous, are biased, violates WP:NPOV, often utilizes misattributed sources, are often primary sources, constitute original research, and are non-academic. Many of these materials resemble previously deleted articles, as mentioned above by Wiqi55. The removal of these materials was therefore a much needed step in closer adherance to WP's policies. Xtremedood (talk) 03:16, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why Muslim delete so much article. What is problem. I agree with "I'm interpreting WP:BRD in favor of your long-standing version despite the lapse of time ", I agree same.--Sajithgayashan (talk) 03:42, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Who is this Sajithgayashan who is speaking in broken English ? Sounds like a sockpuppet for someone Alexis Ivanov (talk) 03:59, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If your trying to say his my sock then your wrong. Just because I used socks in the past does not mean I always will. But its my fault, that you think this. A convict will always be a convict till the day he dies. And I have been convicted of using socks. I think there is another user here using socks but I wont say which ones I suspect are the socks without REASONABLE certainty. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 12:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I never said he was your sockpuppet, it looks like he is having an attitude and needs to be controlled. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 00:53, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Alexis Ivanov: It's pretty suspicious that all these disputes began only after the re-coming of Misconceptions2 (talk · contribs), and before his absence no one actually raised any objection. Of course I'm not going to draw raw conclusions from that but it's just weird and suspicious-to say the least. 17:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)[reply]

You are right. They did aand? I am the ones who raised the objecticions and highlighted this at ANI and COI--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: "They did aand?" I left the conclusion to be drawn by the typical reader. 17:08, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)[reply]

@Misconceptions2, CounterTime, Xtremedood, Sajithgayashan, Edward321, Alexis Ivanov, and Wiqi55: @Al-Andalusi: This dispute already involves a good number of editors, and per WP:RFC, I will make another attempt to reach consensus on this talk page before escalating WP:DR. The core of my proposal is to take Watt's Muhammad at Medina (online version) as a model for this article. It is still a preeminent academic reference on the subject. On page 339, the book contains a "List of Expeditions and Dates" with the following columns: Date (AH/AD), Destination/Name, Opponents, Leader, Number of participants, Result, and References (page numbers for Ibn Ishaq and al-Waqidi). This should address several concerns raised on this talk page before:

1. Inclusion of expeditions that Muhammad didn't participate in is thereby sourced and clarified, without the need for establishing whether or not Muhammad gave the order for each one. The page should be renamed to something like "List of expeditions under Muhammad" or "List of early Muslim expeditions", and it provides a basis for excluding rows without reliably sourced relevance or historicity, some of which seem to have been inherited from lists of "killings".
2. It provides a basis for removing the column "Muhammad's order and reason for expedition", with all its previously mentioned problems per WP:RS and WP:SYNTHESIS. There's a good reason why this information isn't included in Watt's table or generally in lists of battles: trying to cram historical analysis of why events occurred into a table cannot possibly do justice to the subject. This should be left to the individual articles.
3. It likewise provides a basis for removing the column "Casualties description". Attempting to list precise casualty figures gives WP:UNDUE weight to (often primary) sources that report such numbers over source-critical RSs which treat their accuracy with skepticism.

I think these changes would go a long way toward making the article policy-compliant while avoiding removing content that can be made compliant with policies. Eperoton (talk) 11:44, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is basicallly gonna remove 50%-70% of the content and I do not agree with it. If your not happy with what is written, find a source that gives a different opinion. Everything written here is given usually as the opinion of an academic e.g "Watt says", "Muparakpuri says". If your not happy with what they said then you should input what your counter source says e.g "[But person X] says", because so far EVERYTHING written is sourced PROPEPRLY.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 12:46, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: To start with, you have to justify why we should structure the list of expeditions in a way that's not consistent with the way this list -- or other similar lists, for that matter -- is presented in RSs. Expanding the table by 50%-70% is not an argument. Eperoton (talk) 13:03, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you remove sourced data it will cause arguements. If you add sourced data then it will not cause arguements. All sourced data on this page are from Muslim scholars or an academic source.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 13:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You should really consult the cited policies, in particular WP:ONUS: "While information must be verifiable in order to be included in an article, this does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content" (emphasis mine). Adding this column has already caused arguments, and objections have already been presented on this talk page. You have yet to address them. Eperoton (talk) 13:21, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There was never any consensus to REMOVE ALL verified sourced text. There isnt even now.. Per BRD we should all back all the sourced text. What you did not say is after that I think we should discuss which parts should be removed and why. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 13:24, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? How is that relevant to WP:ONUS? If you don't know what the word "onus" means, please look it up. And WP:BRD has nothing to do with sourcing. I'll take a pause from this discussion to give you chance to formulate a better response to the already presented arguments and give others a chance to state their opinions. Eperoton (talk) 13:47, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You're trying to remove sourced statements from an article to make your prophet look better. You shouldn't be editing this.142.105.159.60 (talk) 15:25, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Good grief, a third proponent of the Muslim Conspiracy Theory. They don't seem to be socks, either. I'll go back to waiting for substantive counter-arguments... Eperoton (talk) 15:37, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, how's this? The lede says, and I quote "This list of battles by Muhammad, also includes a list of battles by Muhammad's order", as in battles Muhammad ordered to be fought.

If you're so offended by this article, why not split it into two, one including battles he fought in personally, and one of battles he commanded his followers to fight for him?142.105.159.60 (talk) 16:44, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Or why not fight for both. Its a trivial excuse to delete data. By the way, do you have a user account 142.105.159.60?--Misconceptions2 (talk) 16:47, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Dear all, it looks like someone is off-site canvassing at Reddit here. Al-Andalusi (talk) 15:51, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. Now what?--Misconceptions2 (talk) 15:57, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh. Good catch, Al-Andalusi. It's sad and tiresome to see this display of mob mentality instead of substantive discussion. I suggest we bring this to admin attention. Eperoton (talk) 16:03, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

142.105.159.60 if you posted that on reddit (am not saying you did so please do not get offended). Please can you remove it. It does not help my efforts to fix this article. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 16:06, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: I think the current problem is that the current wiki article (after the bold revert by 142.105.159.60) is mostly a copy paste from here http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad#cite_note-Wahid_327-333-80 (see also: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad#Main_Sources)

I think that, until our previous arguments are challenged, we will: (summarizing the previous arguments)

* "Delete the columns "Muhammad's order and reason for expedition" and "Casualties description", which have too many sourcing problems and just don't make sense here. If a reader wants to know more about the battle, they'll go to the corresponding article and read the historical analysis that should be given there." (Ep)

* "Delete rows like "Assassination of Abu Afak" which don't belong in a list of battles or even "expeditions"." (Ep)

* "This article is about "expeditions of Muhammad", so it should naturally only include ghazawat in which Muhammad participated in, however the current list contains "expeditions which he ordered but did not take part" so these entries should be deleted—we wont even mention all the problems with the authenticity of these numerous expeditions which he allegedly ordered" (CT)

16:50, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Misconceptions2: WP:MOS/Islam is strict on that one must give the authenticity of any prophetic reports. As such either the dozens of reports you cited should mention their authenticity, or else they must be removed altogether. 16:59, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)[reply]

@Eperoton: I also want to raise a question, is the column "Notable primary sources" necessary at all?

17:07, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: I think we should consider this article on its own merits, regardless of its "inspiration", unless there is actual plagiarism involved. I don't see a problem with including expeditions in which Muhammad didn't participate in into an appropriately renamed article, especially in light of Watt's table. Listing primary sources, although not "necessary", also doesn't seem problematic if the citations are backed up by secondary sources. Eperoton (talk) 19:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: Actually I invite you to compare the two articles, one can easily spot the plagiarism.

I don't think that the Sarayyah should be included because there is no general agreement on them, and the hence the dispute will only grow over time. That's why I always prefer to base things on common grounds. The given table by Watt relies heavily on al-Waqidi and Ibn Ishaq, the former is unreliable according to traditionalist arguments (see previous discussion) whereas Ibn Ishaq will depend on whether the given chain is authentic. This will require an extremely important amount of work. So why not delve into such controversies when we can simply list the ghazawat in the most unambiguous fashion?

"doesn't seem problematic if the citations are backed up by secondary sources" But can we consider for instance al-Waqidi's Maghazi to be primary and include it even do it is unreliable?

19:17, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: Based on revision histories, it looks like the WikiIslam page was copied from this one rather than the other way around.

As elsewhere on WP, we should aim to reflect how RSs present the subject. Based on its stature in academia, Watt's book is the strongest RS on the subject per WP criteria. Muhammad's biography in EI2 also refers the reader to Watt's table. Using it as a model is a policy-compliant way to build the table. There are certainly differences of opinion about historicity and interpretation of primary sources, and these should be treated in the relevant articles.

I'm neutral about inclusion of the primary sources column. I don't think including it improves the article, because the reader interested in this level of detail will consult the article for the specific event. I also don't think it is problematic, as long as the citation reflect RSs. Unlike the removed columns, it does not involve compressing essay-form historical analyses into table cells. Eperoton (talk) 01:29, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the Wikiislam.net version is older than this version, see here [5] (archived here [6]). I have been watching them for some years now, they converge pages, create new pages with the same or similar materials, delete history, and try hard to censor any edits that they don't agree with. Also you often can't trust the history on private Wiki's.

• 07:55, 27 January 2015 Axius (Talk | contribs) changed visibility of a revision on page List of Killings Ordered or Supported by Muhammad: content hidden, edit summary hidden and username hidden
• 13:46, 13 January 2015 Sahab (Talk | contribs) deleted page List of Killings Ordered or Supported by Muhammad
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.Xtremedood (talk) 08:07, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think the solution is far more simple than what is being proposed. If we look at other similar articles, such as List of World War II battles, or List of World War I battles, it simply contains the names of the battles/expeditions, as a list article should be doing. The same should be applied here. There should simply be the names of the expeditions and the year in which it is believed to have taken place. This solves a lot of our issues and adheres to WP's policies. Xtremedood (talk) 08:14, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent detective work Xtremedood, very good, let's cut the grasses and see the snakes crawling Alexis Ivanov (talk) 09:24, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2:, please address this concern. Did you copy and paste text from WikiIslam into this or other related articles? Copying it without attribution would be a violation of their license.

@Xtremedood and Alexis Ivanov: Unlike RSs, other WP articles are controversial as a justification for editing decisions. Above I made a different, though related argument: that other lists of military events in RSs do not normally attempt to include an analysis of reasons for the events. Eperoton (talk) 11:50, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: Yeah, but you miss my point which was that there are great divergences of opinion on the Sarayah, where some deem reports on one to be authentic whereas others consider it to be weak. Why not only include things which are easily agreed upon, such as the 28 maghazi? (If you are not convinced that there are large differences of opinion on the sarayah please refer to Note [1])

Another point is that the sarayah refer "to expeditions allegedly sent by the Prophet for several objectives, such as to preach Islam, get news of what the Quraysh were planning, return stolen property, fight against those who were preparing to attack Medina, kill an individual for the same reason, fight those who killed one of the Prophet’s messengers and, in five instances, to destroy Quraysh idols after the taking of Mecca." (Ahmed al-Dawoody, The Islamic Law of War: Justifications and Regulations, pp. 29–30)

These however rarely connote a military meaning, so why should they be added in a table on military expeditions?

12:15, 16 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Note [1]:

In most instances, biographers give their account in the form of a narration of the incidents, without explaining the background and objectives of these expeditions, and they give different totals for these incidents, such as 35, 38, 47, and 56. These differences indicate that each biographer arrived at his own conception of what constituted a sariyah. For example, Ibn Sa‛d at the beginning of his book, following his teacher al-Wāqidī, states that the number of sarāyā sent by the Prophet was forty-seven, while the present study finds that he ends up referring to fifty-six sarāyā.Some biographers used the word ghazwah to refer to incidents others called sariyah, while some used the word ba‛th (delegation) in the same context. In many incidents, no encounter at all occurred with the clans. A number of incidents involved fighting and in some cases the number of victims is not given. According to the numbers that are given, eighty Muslims were killed, including sixty-nine preachers who were assassinated in one incident, while sixty-five non-Muslims were also killed. These accounts of sarāyā are a much less credible source than those of the ghazawāt, not only because of the lack of clarity and details about the reasons for and objectives of such minor incidents, but also because the narrations are not scrutinized and in some cases are unconvincing as stories.

— Ahmed al-Dawoody, The Islamic Law of War: Justifications and Regulations, pp. 29–30

12:22, 16 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: If we took divergences of opinion as a criterion for inclusion, we would need to delete everything related to Muhammad from WP. Al-Dawoody's book is a RS, but it doesn't have greater academic stature on the subject than Watt or EI2. Excluding material based on his objections would be UNDUE. More generally, the purpose of the list is to provide an easy reference to detailed discussions. Eperoton (talk) 13:59, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: The passage I quoted from al-Dawoody was merely mentioning the divergence of opinion with regards to the saraya, and giving its definition, it didn't outline any objections (although if you read further after that passage you would see some of his objections to the work of Watt with regards to the Saraya). What I said was, why should we even give weight to Watt's table when there is such a great divergence concerning the saraya, one listing it to be thirty-five, another thirty-eight, whereas others number it up to forty-seven and fifty-six? Also, what about the first objection? As you admitted, "I think we could potentially have a timeline article about Muhammad's military campaigns along the lines of List of Napoleonic battles and List of World War I battles," However the saraya do not fit under such type of articles, since saraya were mainly non-military in nature, as al-Dawoody framed, saraya were "to preach Islam, get news of what the Quraysh were planning, return stolen property, fight against those who were preparing to attack Medina, kill an individual for the same reason, fight those who killed one of the Prophet’s messengers and, in five instances, to destroy Quraysh idols after the taking of Mecca."

15:03, 16 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: Per WP:WEIGHT, Watt's book should be given significant weight because it's still the most influential academic biography of Muhammad, and it's a rare source that corresponds exactly to the subject of the article (list of expeditions), which is also cited approvingly by another highly influential academic source, EI2. There should be a significant body of contrary judgments in reliable sources for a given event to make the opposing opinion more prominent. But in fact there's another reason why I think we should decide in favor of inclusion where RSs disagree: including an item in the table lets us quantify their support in RSs by citations and it lets the reader consult the discussion in the article, thereby reflecting different viewpoints, while excluding it does not. A third line of argumentation is that existence of a list of expeditions on WP is supported by RSs, and putting it here is better than splitting it out in a separate article from ghazawat. Beyond that, we should just reflect what the RSs call these events, in this case "expedition". I think it would be good to include an explanation of what is meant by saraya, such the one you quoted, in the lead. Eperoton (talk) 01:36, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that Watt's take is the best one for this topic. There are a multitude of academic sources that deal with this topic. Watt has also received heavy criticism from academics like Zafar Ali Qureshi, who in his book "Prophet Mohammad and His Western Critics: A Critique of W. Montgomery Watt and Others" ﷺ debunks various stereotypes present in Orientalist literature's, which was endorsed by Ibrahim Kalin [7], a reputed professor of Islamic studies in Turkey and who serves as chief advisor to the PM of Turkey. Like I said, the solution is a lot simpler. We should simply maintain a list of verified expeditions in a list format, similar to other lists (mentioned above) without delving into the complexities involved in each expedition. There should, however, be articles pertaining to each expedition which should give more comprehensive insight into the matter. These individual articles, should contain a multitude of academic (non-primary) sources which delve into the matter. Xtremedood (talk) 08:16, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I will, however, pass conditional support to the idea of utilizing one, two, or a few academic sources for inclusions of what expeditions should be included in the list (only names and dates). However, I would like to specify that this conditional support is only if the list article does not delve into the complex materials involved in each expedition (basically it should only include the name of the expedition and the date like the WW1 list article mentioned above). I think that the complex materials, involving the rationale, conditions and description of the expeditions should be left for the individual articles themselves, which should include a multitude of legitimate sources. A list article is simply not enough to provide a proper description of the events and we should not neglect the fact that there are a multitude of diverse views on the matter. Xtremedood (talk) 08:38, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Xtremedood: As far as I can tell, your proposal is essentially identical to mine. I deliberately avoid the use of words like "best" to characterize sources, because it's not the kind of judgment we're allowed to make. The terms used in WP:NPOV are "significant" and "prominent", which are a measure of academic influence. This case is particularly tricky because we have to apply WP:WEIGHT to a list. If we had multiple tables of this kind in RSs, we could have a YES/NO column for each to mark their historicity assessments for each expedition. Absent that, I think the best option would be to quantify RS support by citations in the year column. Events whose historicity is accepted by all RSs (except the hardcore skeptical school, of course) will have more refs in that column than controversial events. We can mention that in the lead, too. Eperoton (talk) 11:39, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: I disagree on your assessment of Watt and EI2, but, to move forward, what about my second point? : As you admitted, "I think we could potentially have a timeline article about Muhammad's military campaigns along the lines of List of Napoleonic battles and List of World War I battles," However the saraya do not fit under such type of articles, since saraya were mainly non-military in nature, as al-Dawoody framed, saraya were "to preach Islam, get news of what the Quraysh were planning, return stolen property, fight against those who were preparing to attack Medina, kill an individual for the same reason, fight those who killed one of the Prophet’s messengers and, in five instances, to destroy Quraysh idols after the taking of Mecca."

And per WP:MOS/Hadith we should reflect the authenticity of Prophetic reports (and the genre of Maghazi/Saraya fits there), so how are you going about that? Watt himself doesn't make any comments on the authenticity of the reports he included in that table.

11:46, 17 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: In response to your second point I wrote "we should just reflect what the RSs call these events". Calling them an expedition makes no implicit assertion about their military nature. The table reflects Watt's (also Caetani's and EI2's per citations) view about authenticity of the reports. As you can see from the text before the table, he thinks that the "points in dispute" relate to chronology of these events rather than their basic historicity. Note that I'm not proposing to include every row from his table; just the ones for which we have separate articles, because the purpose of the list is to provide a convenient reference to detailed discussions. Eperoton (talk) 12:08, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: Watt wasn't even talking about their authenticity, he was merely noting that the "main" point of dispute is about the chronology of these maghazi & saraya. I would like you to re-read there, and particularly the previous dsicussion on the sources: "Ibn Ishaq, working in the second quarter of the second Islamic century (middle of the eighth century A.D.), usually gives his authorities, but not always a complete chain,and he does not always repeat the words of the authority verbatim. Al-Waqidi, half a century later, is similar in method, but his secretary and follower, Ibn Sa'd, some twenty years younger,always attempts to quote exactly and to give a complete chain of authorities. The insistence on complete chains is to be associated with the teaching of ash-Shafi'i, 2 who was roughly a contemporary of al-Waqidi" In sum, Watt didn't even speak about the authenticity of these siyar.

"just the ones for which we have separate articles" Ahmed al-Dawoody talked about there being in the Maghazi litterature 35, 38, 47, and 56 mentioned saraya, the previous version of the article contained 73, most of whom have an independent article created by @Misconceptions2:, so it seems this means that we should include all the table then.

17:25, 17 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: It sounds like you're reading too much into this passage. Like most academic historians, Watt isn't basing his historicity judgments primarily on isnads. But I think our last two replies are starting to drift into synthesis. Our job is to reflect what RSs state explicitly, no more. We have a table called "list of expeditions" in a prominent RS. We have to reflect it in an article called "list of expeditions". What is explicit in the source is whether or not the event is listed. It may not be entirely clear how best to handle events on whose presence in such a list RSs disagree, but removing these events from the article is not what NPOV tells us to do. It tells us to reflect all significant viewpoints found in RSs. I'm surprised we're having so much difficulty reaching a consensus on this. Eperoton (talk) 12:21, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: Western scholars may not page their judgment primarily on isnad, but Muslim scholars do in general. I will readjust some of my expectations (to keep up with the general consensus), so are you willing to incorporate these changes with the conditions you mentioned earlier (+ def of saraya and maghazi in lede)? 12:40, 18 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)[reply]

@CounterTime: I'm all for reflecting both academic and traditional views. Whatever method lets us do so adequately is fine with me. Eperoton (talk) 12:49, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: Great! You can already start working on the article whose protection will end today. 13:02, 18 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)[reply]

@Misconceptions2, CounterTime, Xtremedood, Rentier, Edward321, Alexis Ivanov, and Wiqi55:: @Eperoton:: Please discuss and vote for the proposal here: Talk:List of expeditions of Muhammad/Vote. Al-Andalusi (talk) 20:19, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think we've all had our chance to participate in this discussion and per WP:WIKINOTVOTE simple vote tally is not the way to go. The next step in WP:DR would be WP:RFC. Eperoton (talk) 20:43, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Al-Andalusi: This isn't a good idea, I can easily imagine socks pupping there to push a certain view, and the article page history is a testimony to that. We already suffer from an important problem, which is that Misconceptions2 hardly addresses any of the points of concern in the talk.

20:56, 24 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Ok. Thanks for the feedback. I guess we will have to wait for the next step. Al-Andalusi (talk) 01:24, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: Your suggestion to Delete rows like "Assassination of Abu Afak" which you say don't belong in a list of battles or even "expeditions". contradicts an established academic practice to include such events among "expeditions". See for example: Jones, J. M. B.. 1957. “The Chronology of the "mag̱ẖāzī"-- A Textual Survey”. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London 19 (2). Cambridge University Press: 247. http://www.jstor.org/stable/610242 which lists "The Killing of Abu Afak". Rentier (talk) 14:19, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Rentier: I agree with Eperoton's assessment, but without even bringing that into account, the so-called "assassination of Abu Afak" has been largely described as inauthentic, remember what WP:MOS/Hadith is.

17:25, 25 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Rentier: You're right. Upon closer inspection, the assassinations of Asma and Abu Afak are also listed in Watt's table. I think that justifies the presence of these rows in the table. What do you think about the "reason" column, though? Attempting to tabulate reasons for historical events runs counter to the two RSs, and, in my experience, to academic practice in general. The two books with such tables that have been put forth on this TP could not even be established as RSs on history either based on the publisher or the author, let alone as prominent RSs. Policy-wise, this seems to me at least to violate WP:WEIGHT in not giving approprirate weight to representation of the material in authoritative RSs, and substantively it strikes me as a travesty of historical analysis. It prevents placing groups of events in their historical and historiographical context, as RSs do, and it gives undue weight to sources that give credence to the motivations stated for the individual events in the primary sources, whose historicity nearly everyone treats with various levels of skepticism. I think this column should either be deleted to bring the table in line with RS models, or else the article should be converted into an essay-form article on the expeditions, which a bare-bone timeline for easy reference. Eperoton (talk) 01:26, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: I'm interested into how you may add the fact that these assassinations reports have been deemed to be inauthentic by traditional Islamic scholars in your assessment.

11:30, 26 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: If it's an essay-form article, then authenticity assessments can be discussed in text like anywhere else. If it's a list, then one could quantify support for autheniticity by citations, as I wrote above, though that's an admittedly clumsy solution. At the least, the reader should be alerted to historiographical controversies and directed to consult individual articles for detail. This is a challenge which applies to everything on the list, since there are prominent historians who believe the entire hadith tradition to be fabricated or unreliable. Eperoton (talk) 12:47, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: Well why not going for my original proposal, which was to include here only things of convergence (which are the 27-8 Maghazi), and not divergence in the form a list, as in List of Napoleonic battles? Why complicate things with all these issues when the solution is, in point of fact, that simple?

13:22, 26 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: I think that's a question we've already discussed above, so I'll just paste my earlier take here: We have a table called "list of expeditions" in a prominent RS. We have to reflect it in an article called "list of expeditions". What is explicit in the source is whether or not the event is listed. It may not be entirely clear how best to handle events on whose presence in such a list RSs disagree, but removing these events from the article is not what NPOV tells us to do. It tells us to reflect all significant viewpoints found in RSs. Eperoton (talk) 14:01, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: But as I said earlier, the source itself states that some of these events aren't historical, that some sources (meaning some accounts in al-Waqidi for e.g.) aren't reliable, and that it includes things which other RSs wouldn't name as "expeditions". It seems to me, and I may be mistaken, that your only argument per WP:ONUS is that the meant source is "prominent", and somewhat, this justifies to ignore all that is mentioned in other notable RSs.

17:04, 26 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: My argument is based on WP:NPOV. We have lists of expeditions from two RSs and we have to reflect them here. All significant viewpoints on whether specific items belong in this list should be reflected, and I'm all for discussing how best to reflect them (I've made two such proposals already). However, removing an item from the article clearly fails to reflect the RSs that include it in a list of expeditions. Eperoton (talk) 21:28, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: By WP:ONUS, "Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content."

My basic position is that these sourced content in these RSs should be included in other articles (saraya articles) and only maghazi entries are relevent, since the other ones are off-topic, even do Watt calls them expeditions.

21:44, 26 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: It's not just a matter of improving the article, but also of whether or not excluding this content violates WP:NPOV. Consensus can't override a core policy. In any case, we're both working on achieving consensus. Why would events that are called expeditions in a RS be off-topic in a list of expeditions? Do you have evidence that the term "expedition" is more commonly restricted in RSs to the events you propose to keep? Eperoton (talk) 22:34, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: See the quotes I gave earlier from Ahmed al-Dawoody's book.

23:09, 26 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: Hmm, what do you mean? He also uses in the word "expedition" to refer to both maghazi and saraya : "In most instances, biographers give their account in the form of a narration of the incidents, without explaining the background and objectives of these expeditions, and they give different totals for these incidents, such as 35, 38, 47, and 56." (emphasis mine) Eperoton (talk) 23:18, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: True, he says elsewhere that, "the attempts of the early biographers to refer to all the Prophet’s travels and engagements with others as ghazawāt or maghāzī and expeditions sent by him as siyar, without differentiating between the preaching and fighting missions."

The point being, as you stated elsewhere, the reason why an article like this can be kept is that it is similar to articles like List of Napoleonic battles, however it doesn't make sense to have a "List of expeditions of X", in fact, if you search for "List of expeditions of" you'll see that this is the only such article. What do you think?

00:05, 27 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: The rationale for this article being kept is existence of such lists in RSs, per WP:LISTN. My allusion to other WP lists had to do with the choice of columns rather than rows. Eperoton (talk) 00:21, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: I agree with you for the most part, especially that the sources leave much to be desired. I have no strong opinion regarding the "reason" column. Perhaps a column named "summary" would be more appropriate (as in e.g. List of battles before 301)? I do not necessarily see a problem with compressing complex information into a table cell. The widely used Template:Infobox military conflict does just that. --Rentier (talk) 01:15, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: But again, per WP:ONUS, "Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." Just because there's an RS with such information does not mean that it should necessarily be included in that specific form.

And you didn't address my concerns about the title.

10:19, 27 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Rentier: I think renaming the column would be a construtive first step. At least it would remove the arbitrary restriction imposed by the column title. Then, as the article develops, it should become clearer whether it should be converted to a standard article ("expeditions" without the "list") or to a standard list.

@CounterTime: As I wrote about, even a consensus can't sanction violation of WP:NPOV, so WP:ONUS isn't applicable here. What are your concerns about the title? Eperoton (talk) 12:54, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: Here are they, "The point being, as you stated elsewhere, the reason why an article like this can be kept is that it is similar to articles like List of Napoleonic battles, however it doesn't make sense to have a "List of expeditions of X", in fact, if you search for "List of expeditions of" you'll see that this is the only such article. What do you think?"

BTW, it isn't obvious to me how basing an entire article on a single RS while ignoring everything else (including one simple solution) doesn't constitute a violation of WP:NPOV.

13:47, 27 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: Hmm, did you miss my earlier responses? On the first point I wrote: "The rationale for this article being kept is existence of such lists in RSs, per WP:LISTN. My allusion to other WP lists had to do with the choice of columns rather than rows." On the second one I wrote: "All significant viewpoints on whether specific items belong in this list should be reflected, and I'm all for discussing how best to reflect them (I've made two such proposals already). However, removing an item from the article clearly fails to reflect the RSs that include it in a list of expeditions." I'm flattered that our dispute is coming to consist out of appeals to my earlier comments... :) But I think it will be more productive if we switch to exploring consensual avenues for improving this article, whose results can also be applied to the individual article it points to. In fact, it looks like you had already started this effort the other day. Eperoton (talk) 18:33, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

CounterTime and Eperoton, can we please postpone the disagreement on the number of rows and what constitutes an expedition for later? This has been dragging the discussion for long. Right now, the priority is to tackle the "Muhammad's order and reason for expedition" column, which is filled with Misconceptions2 lies and distortions. This is the *main* problem with the article IMO. Once the column is removed, we can resume the discussion on what rows to keep. Al-Andalusi (talk) 19:44, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your the only one that wants to delete the reasons column. There is no consensus for that.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:07, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Muslims only want to censor wikipedia. I certainly do not think any controversial information about Moes expeditions should be removed. The truth may be hard to swallow but its not a reason to censor. --119.30.32.120 (talk) 17:17, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Al-Andalusi: I thought we were already done with that column? See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues The consensus reached resulted in the deletion of that row, before the re-coming of Misconceptions2 who was the only one to dispute that. 17:23, 28 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)[reply]

@119.30.32.120: I don't think I've seen someone state here: "This stuff should be deleted since it hurts our feelings", all the discussions have been going on about the sources, wp policies, ...etc So it's very strange to hear that from your part 17:23, 28 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)[reply]

Clearly there was no consensus in first place. You ended discussion without input of other demographics. In fact no one else even inputted to the original discussion other than muslims. So it was only gonna go one way. I will argue there was no consensus in first place and furthermore as the old version of this article was nominated for afd thats the one that should stay there until its over and should stay there until a consensus is reached here as agreed by me, sajith, and eperton. Furthermore I think user:142.105.159.60 and user:Edward321 agree with the old version being there thats why they made the reverts. So thats 5.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:09, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: A consensus was reached before your re-apparition. If you want to change the new consensus you'd have to first make discussions in the talk page before making any edit. Simple. For the moment we're still waiting for your input here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues

17:18, 15 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Because Misconceptions2 joined the discussion belatedly, there is a legitimate difference of opinion as to how WP:BRD should be interpreted here, i.e., which changes are the bold edits and which are the reverts. Regardless of this, the long-term state of the article is subject to WP:ONUS. The editors supporting inclusion of the disputed content should be taking the initiative in building consensus, and so far they seem strangely reluctant even to start addressing the raised objections. Eperoton (talk) 19:08, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've fully protected for 2 days given we have a number of confirmed users engaging in edit warring. When the protection expires blocks may be in order for those who prove unable to work collaboratively — MusikAnimal ^talk 17:50, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Xtremedood: Control this failed musician DJ SG Gayashan who has another sockpuppet account called Sajithgayashan and SG Gayashan, he failed to promote his failed career on Wikipedia Alexis Ivanov (talk) 09:27, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone revert the edit by 103.55.147.30, since his edit wasn't based on a consensus reached on the talk page or anything similar? 16:38, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)[reply]

There was no consensus in the first place. Anyone can see that because the arguments are still on going back on forth. I am for the long-standing version version ()the current one) being on there, it has been there for 2 years+ until a few peopel decided otherwise. Its also needed for the afd.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 16:53, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why dont we do a vote on which version should be kept? The longstanding version or the highly redacted version.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 16:55, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: Once again, WP consensus is based not on votes, but on strength of the arguments and policy compliance. All interested editors have just had an extensive policy-based discussion that yielded a consensus on the long-term form of the article in the "Proposal" section. Your decision to sit out the discussion doesn't invalidate the resulting consensus. If you have a problem with it, I invite you once again to join the discussion and address the policy and content issues debated there. Otherwise, you'll have to create a new consensus for any other changes you'll want to make. Eperoton (talk) 17:07, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is essentially a content dispute? So why dont we dispute the content? Not once did we dispute issues with references or content. Which content should not be here and why? --Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:11, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Many people agree the old verison should stay. This is why many edit war. Others also not agree. But with this version: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad&oldid=710877529 no muslim want to debate what is problem with article. Now all muslim come to debate? Keep current version, is better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DJ SG Gayashan (talk • contribs) 17:38, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2:

(1) No, the previous version was the one that was in force before your return. The current discussion in the talk is about ameliorating that version.

(2) Why don't you instead address the arguments outlined here? (As I asked you time and time again to do, but you still refuse to discuss there)

(3) Making a "vote" system opens the door for socks, and as the edit history of this article shows, there are many socks constantly making reverts without making any type of constructive discussion in the talk.

17:13, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Which accounts are socks?--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:13, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: I don't think that the term 'sock' was the correct technical term, just meant in general accounts that do not make any attempts at building constructive discussion.

17:18, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Why dont we make an effort to discuss the content right now. We should have 7 days of peace and no edit warring? Tell me which reference of text written here should be removed?--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:23, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: There are now many pages of policy-based debate about references and content on this TP. Several other editors have been taking part in the debate while you have been steadfastly ignoring it despite many invitations to participate, and now you're even refusing to acknowledge that it occurred. Enough. Go take part in those discussions or stop wasting people's time with WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Eperoton (talk) 17:24, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ok give 1 example here right now of a piece of text that should be removed and why? Just 1.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:26, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: All the material that doesn't appear in lists of expeditions found in RSs should be removed. That includes several rows and two of the columns in the older version. For more detail, see the Proposal section above. Eperoton (talk) 17:42, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please give examples of which text should be removed and does not appear in reliable source. No we are getting somewhere. Lets continue this back and forth of which content here is at dispute. Back to my point. Please give an example of some text that should be removed because it is not backed up by RS?--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:46, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice to think that we're getting somewhere, except that you're asking me to repeat the exact same arguments I've already made to you in the Proposal section above and which you have left without response. If I copy and paste them here, will you stop engaging in WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT? Eperoton (talk) 17:52, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am waiting for you to copy and paste a line of text which should not be here because it is from an unreliable source? is that so hard? Why do we go in circles? please just do this--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:57, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: I agree with Misconceptions2 please post here (not a link to see something) text in which you are in disagreement with, also I think you've made it clear that you are relying on WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, I think you can stop posting that link. Mlpearc (open channel) 18:03, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2 and Mlpearc: You are still evading Eperoton's point, but in any case, to answer your specific question, first please see our previous discussion: (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Multiple_issues and the more recent one: (2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad#Proposal

As an example; line number 71=Expedition of Abu Qatadah ibn Rab'i al-Ansari (Batn Edam), the source is Tabaqat ibn sa'd which is WP:PRIMARY, not to mention issues of authenticity explained in discussion (1) and (2).

18:30, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

I'll recap the discussion above for the benefit of Mlpearc, who seems to be a legitimate newcomer. Our role is to reflect how RSs treat the subject of the article. For an article called "List of expeditions", we need to look at lists of expeditions found in RSs. As it happens, the single most prominent academic source on the subject, Watt's Muhammad at Medina, has a table under that exact name (see p. 339 here). Since no other such lists in RSs have come to light during this dispute, this should be our working model. A number of rows, which seem to be borrowed from lists found on anti-Islam websites, aren't found there. Neither is the entire "reason" column. I'm not going to paste them here. In fact, I'm not aware of any list of military events in RSs that attempt to compress historical analyses of why the events occurred into table cells. As several editors agree, this is a content fork that should properly be left to the articles themselves. Other examples on WP such as List of Napoleonic battles and List of World War I battles have also been pointed to. Treating a topic differently from the how it's treated in RSs requires justification and per WP:ONUS Misconceptions2 has been invited to provide one and build consensus for it. This is the last we've heard from them on this point. Eperoton (talk) 18:31, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Not done: From a quick glance at this talk page it doesn't look like we are near to finding any kind of consensus about the issues here. Until there is a consensus about what to do, the article should stay protected on the current version. (See also m:The Wrong Version.) — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 03:04, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to CounterTime (talk · contribs) about #71 Expedition of Abu Qatadah ibn Rab'i al-Ansari (Batn Edam)

Your problem with this one is valid. Unfortuantely number 71 on this article only has a primary source. IN THAT CASE IT IS only number 71 you should have removed and not more than 70-80 rows like you did.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 18:37, 19 March 2016 (UTC) Expedition of Abu Qatadah ibn Rab'i al-Ansari (Batn Edam) has secodnary soruces listed as: Atlas Al-sīrah Al-Nabawīyah" pg .218 and The Sealed Necter pg. 250 it was a simple matter of going in that page. Finding the secondary sources and adding it to this page. BOTH OF THESE SOURCES ARE MUSLIM SCHOLARS[reply]

1. Secondary Source 1: Atlas Al-sīrah Al-Nabawīyah, pg. 218, Dr. Shawqi Abu Khalil, Darussalam Publishers
2. Secondary Source 2: Hawarey, Dr. Mosab (2010). The Journey of Prophecy; Days of Peace and War (Arabic). Islamic Book Trust. ISBN 9789957051648. {{cite book}}: External link in |first= (help)Note: Book contains a list of battles of Muhammad in Arabic, English translation available here
3. Secondary Source 3: The Sealed Nectar, pg. 250, Safiur Rahman Mubarakpuri, Darussalam Publishers. (archive)

--Misconceptions2 (talk) 18:37, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: "only number 71 you should have removed and not more than 70-80 rows like you did" -- I only responded to your question which asked for one.

By the way, per WP:MOS/Islam, do you have an RS which evaluates the authenticity of the narrations on "Expedition of Abu Qatadah ibn Rab'i al-Ansari (Batn Edam)"? One is required to provide them.

20:34, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Where on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Islam-related_articles#Hadith does it say that every hadith has to be evaluated? About the hadiths mentioned on the article:

Ibn Abbas reported that some Muslims met a person with a small flock of sheep. He said: As-Salam-o-'Alaikum. They caught hold of him and killed him and took possession of his flock. Then this verse was revealed:" He who meets you and extends you salutations (assalamu alaikum), don't say: You are not a Muslim" (iv. 94). Ibn 'Abbas, however, recited the word as-Salam instead of" as-Salam".Sahih Muslim, 43:7176

Theres tons of books which provide commentary on hadith: https://nmusba.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/sahih-muslim-bi-sharh-li-imam-an-nawawi-18-volumes-in-10-books/ Generally Muslims cosndier Sahih Bukhari and Muslim as reliable, the other 4 of the 6 "great" hadith collections are also generally considered reliable. The Muslim website Sunnah.com grades every SINGLE hadith in the 6 collections. Get the authenticty from there. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 20:43, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: The linked article makes it explicit: Articles on hadith should make clear the reliability of the hadith.

I'm talking about the authenticity of the reports on "Expedition of Abu Qatadah ibn Rab'i al-Ansari (Batn Edam)" that are found in Ibn Sa'd's tabaqat for instance, and not some random hadith that has no relevance here.

"Generally Muslims cosndier Sahih Bukhari and Muslim as reliable, theo ther for 6 "great" hadith collections are also generally considered reliable" -- I didn't state otherwise, if you check the edit summary of the Hadith article you'll see that I actually included things which supported that, but how does that relate to the authenticity of "reports on "Expedition of Abu Qatadah ibn Rab'i al-Ansari (Batn Edam)" that are found in Ibn Sa'd's tabaqat for instance"?

20:52, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Ibn Sa'd is Maghazi not hadith. It is not an article dedicated entirely to a hadith like: Hadith of the pond of Khumm. It is not an articled dedicated to hadith like that is. If you want the authenticity of Ibn Sa'd book then you must ask for the authenticity of every book thats used as a source. Its like saying if I wanna use the Sealed Nectar book then I must also have another source mentioning the authenticity of the text written there. That would be unreasonable and that certainly is not the spirit behind MOS/ISLAM requirement of mentioning the "GRADE" of a hadith, that would be an overburden. Do not interpret it how you want to. Ibn Sa';d does not layout his stories like the hadith do. Thats why it does not have a NUMBERING system like hadith. Also you say "evaluation", that word is wrong, it is just the "grade" that is needed and it mentions the different grades in MOS/SILAM write after "Articles on hadith should make clear the reliability of the hadith. The four general types of hadith reliability are:". It then goes onto mention the grades such as Sahih and Hassan. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 21:04, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: (quotes are highlighted)

Ibn Sa'd is Maghazi not hadith.

This is utterly false. Ibn Sa'd's tabaqat belongs to the genre of tarikh (history), it includes parts on Maghazi and saraya, but, these are formulated as hadiths, i.e. they are composed of a chain of transmission (isnad) and a matn, they are thus subject to traditionalist evaluations with regards to the science of hadith, in the words of Watt,

Ibn Ishaq, working in the second quarter of the second Islamic century (middle of the eighth century A.D.), usually gives his authorities, but not always a complete chain,and he does not always repeat the words of the authority verbatim. Al-Waqidi, half a century later, is similar in method, but his secretary and follower, Ibn Sa'd, some twenty years younger, always attempts to quote exactly and to give a complete chain of authorities.

— Muhammad at Medina, p. 338.

See also: Zaman, Muhammad Qasim. “Maghazi and the Muhaddithun: Reconsidering the Treatment of ‘Historical’ Materials in Early Collections of Hadith”,International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 28, No. 1, Feb. 1996, pp.1-18.

Its like saying if I wanna use the Sealed Nectar book then I must also have another source mentioning the authenticity of the text written there.

The Sealed Nectar is an secondary source, unlike Ibn Sa'd Tabaqat, which is WP:PRIMARY.

And even if the Sealed Nectar mentions an event, despite being a secondary source, if it doesn't mention explicitly the authenticity, then it runs contrary to WP:MOS/Hadith.

Regards,

21:20, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Show me 1 reliable source thats claims Ibn Sa'd is hadith and I will show you 10 that say he is "Maghazi"--Misconceptions2 (talk) 21:21, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: Again you're twisting my points. I explicitly said that Ibn Sa'd belongs to the genre of tarikh (history) it includes parts on Maghazi and saraya, but, these are formulated as hadiths, i.e. they are composed of a chain of transmission (isnad) and a matn, as the quote of Montgomery Watt shows: "Ibn Sa'd, some twenty years younger, always attempts to quote exactly and to give a complete chain of authorities.".

21:24, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Ibn Sa'd is not considered by ANY serious muslim scholar as a hadith author. MOST of his isnad just rely on his teacher al-Waqidi and end there. He says in his preface that "was was written here has just been passed onto me", something on those lines. He does not have isnad in the same sense as hadith.

Ibn Sa'd prefaces his accounts of the actual maghazi with a comprehensive list of his most important sponsors,142 and in it names al-Waqidl as his immediate and direct authority; Ru'aym ibn Yazld, who handed on to him the traditions

See: The earliest biographies of the prophet and their authors If you want you can mention in the articles who considers Ibn Sa'd reliable and who does not consider him relibable. Some of his stories consist of VARIOUS different quotes from different periods. It is not like hadith where it just has 1 quote that took place in a 1 minute. His are like stories with various different quotes from various different people at serious different times possible over a period of a month depending on time of mission. Hadith is like "The prophet said so and so", Maghazi is like "The prophet sent this man to this expedition...Quotes of the men involved in exception during morning...Quotes of men few days later...with a quote of Muhammad rarely put in there few days or months later after mission complete". Its basically history.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 21:32, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2:

Ibn Sa'd is not considered by ANY serious muslim scholar as a hadith author.

I didn't state otherwise, what I stated was, as in the words of Montgomery Watt, that "Ibn Sa'd, some twenty years younger, always attempts to quote exactly and to give a complete chain of authorities.", i.e. an isnad. (Muhammad at Medina, p. 338.)

MOST of his isnad just rely on his teacher al-Waqidi and end there.

(Assuming that what you just said is true-in point of fact it isn't) That doesn't sound good, he is considered as unreliable by the vast majority of Hadith scholars. For instance, Ibn Hanbal denounced him as a liar, and according to al-Ghunaimi, al-Waqidi is considered as one of "the most famous four, among the many, fabricators of hadith". (Source: Ahmed al-Dawoody - War in Islamic Law, p. 23.). Hence, we conclude that narrations based on al-Waqidi should be deleted altogether, both from a primary source or an RS which isn't explicit on its authenticity. He does not have isnad in the same sense as hadith. But when it relates to Prophetic reports (which are either his spoken words, deeds, etc... and this includes Maghazi and Saraya) the isnad should be reliable, according to Hadith scholars. Hence, per WP:MOS/Islam the authenticity should be assessed.

If you want you can mention in the articles who considers Ibn Sa'd reliable and who does not consider him relibable.

Just because X is reliable does not mean that narration Y in the book Z of X is reliable. Each individual isnad should be scrutinized, hence even do Muslim Sunni Hadith scholars largely agree that Abu Dawud is reliable, does not entail that every one of the hadiths in his Sunan is authentic.

It is not like hadith where it just has 1 quote that does place in a certain minutes.

A Hadith is defined as: "a report describing the words, actions, or habits of the Prophet Muhammad." _{(Source: A.C. Brown, Jonathan (2009). Hadith: Muhammad's Legacy in the Medieval and Modern World (Foundations of Islam). Oneworld Publications. p. 3. ISBN 978-1851686636.)} Where in this definition does it say that hadiths should be restricted to "certain minutes"?

Hadith is like "The prophet said so and so", Believe it or not, Hadiths also include (by definition) the "...actions, or habits of the Prophet Muhammad.", hence, in Hadith collections such as the Sahih of Bukhari one can find entire chapters on Maghazi, see: Zaman, Muhammad Qasim. “Maghazi and the Muhaddithun: Reconsidering the Treatment of ‘Historical’ Materials in Early Collections of Hadith”,International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 28, No. 1, Feb. 1996, pp.1-18.

I don't see where you're going with this argumentation, but the fact remains, the Maghazi/Saraya genre are reports on the actions of the Prophet Muhammad, hence a hadith (by def), and the historical reports in Ibn Sa'd's Tabaqat should be assessed in terms of their authenticity per requirement of WP:MOS/Islam. Simple. 21:49, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

You can mention that the primary soruce is unreliable according to so and so if you want. That much I will compromise. But Ibn Sa;'d is sometimes THE only source for some missions. He is widely used even by Muslims schoalrs like Mubrakpuri who do not have any other sources. Ibn Sa'd is extremely notable being the ONLY surviving source. It is not a fact that can be over looked simply because he maybe unreliable. By the way only about 18 articles rely on him and those that do have plenty of Muslim secondary sources who used him as a source e.g Haykal and Mubarakpuri.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 22:00, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2:

But Ibn Sa;'d is sometimes THE only source for some missions. He is widely used even by Muslims schoalrs like Mubrakpuri who do not have any other sources.

That's not an excuse, WP:MOS/Hadith is explicit, and how does that even relate to whether or not you should include the authenticity of each narration in the first place?

have plenty of Muslim secondary sources who used him as a source e.g Haykal and Mubarakpuri.

As I said earlier: And even if the Sealed Nectar mentions an event, despite being a secondary source, if it doesn't mention explicitly the authenticity, then it runs contrary to WP:MOS/Hadith.

Regards,

22:09, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Not it doesnt., Just because a secondary soruce uses him doesnt mean that secondary source cant be used. Also the secondary soruces dont actually say who there primary source is BUT it is clear that it is Ibn Sa'd if he is the only existing primary source then its the only rational deduction. The compromise I will make is that you can mention the authenticity if you want. I never minded that. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 22:20, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2:

Just because a secondary soruce uses him doesnt mean that secondary source cant be used

I didn't say that it can't be used, rather I argued that such a secondary source will fail WP:MOS/Hadith due to not mentioning the authenticity of the report mentioned there.

Also the secondary soruces ... the only rational deduction

Then that's another obstacle to using that source without violating WP:MOS/Hadith.

The compromise I will make is that you can mention the authenticity if you want

My basic position is that anything that fails WP:MOS/Hadith should be deleted altogether.

My other position is that the current list fails WP:SYNTHESIS in that it synthesizes material from multiple sources to make a list, without relying on an RS mentioning a list, as @Eperoton: suggested.

The other position is, of course, that Saraya should be deleted altogether, since they aren't military in nature, and since their authenticity is largely disputed.

Regards,

22:25, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Misconceptions2:, we've discussed this "no hadith was cited" claim of yours back in 2011, and I pointed out the need for checking hadith sources (Template talk:Campaignbox Campaigns of Muhammad#Hadith reliability). So this discussion is certainly not new to you and you are fully aware of the problems with your edits. The question is, why do you continue to behave and act like you are completely ignorant of this fact, and insist on wasting other editors' time with endless discussions that is ok to cite primary Maghazi sources? Al-Andalusi (talk) 20:42, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Because it is ok to QUOTE (not use as reference) primary maghazi sources for the same reason as its ok to quote any book.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 21:09, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: And where exactly in this article are you doing that? Al-Andalusi (talk) 23:13, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: You missed (again) the point, which was that to quote primary maghazi saraya material one ought to provide the authenticity of each report per WP:MOS/Hadith, the thing that you failed to do & evade.

21:17, 20 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

The Maghazi simply is not considered a hadith book. 99% of Maghazi in Ibn Sa'ds book start off with "The prophet sent so and so on an expedition", after that there is usually not even a mention of Muhammad any more in the rest of the text for that expedition."--Misconceptions2 (talk) 21:43, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: Please stop repeating again and again half-baked arguments. I never claimed that Ibn Sa'd's tabaqat was a hadith book, rather I explicitly stated that it was a book of history (tarikh), but that it contained isnads for each narrative. See what I said earlier:

Ibn Sa'd's tabaqat belongs to the genre of tarikh (history), it includes parts on Maghazi and saraya, but, these are formulated as hadiths, i.e. they are composed of a chain of transmission (isnad) and a matn, they are thus subject to traditionalist evaluations with regards to the science of hadith, in the words of Watt,

Ibn Ishaq, working in the second quarter of the second Islamic century (middle of the eighth century A.D.), usually gives his authorities, but not always a complete chain,and he does not always repeat the words of the authority verbatim. Al-Waqidi, half a century later, is similar in method, but his secretary and follower, Ibn Sa'd, some twenty years younger, always attempts to quote exactly and to give a complete chain of authorities.

— Muhammad at Medina, p. 338.

See also: Zaman, Muhammad Qasim. “Maghazi and the Muhaddithun: Reconsidering the Treatment of ‘Historical’ Materials in Early Collections of Hadith”,International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 28, No. 1, Feb. 1996, pp.1-18.

A Hadith is defined as: "a report describing the words, actions, or habits of the Prophet Muhammad." _{(Source: A.C. Brown, Jonathan (2009). Hadith: Muhammad's Legacy in the Medieval and Modern World (Foundations of Islam). Oneworld Publications. p. 3. ISBN 978-1851686636.)} Where in this definition does it say that hadiths should be restricted to "certain minutes"?

Hadith is like "The prophet said so and so",

Believe it or not, Hadiths also include (by definition) the "...actions, or habits of the Prophet Muhammad.", hence, in Hadith collections such as the Sahih of Bukhari one can find entire chapters on Maghazi, see: Zaman, Muhammad Qasim. “Maghazi and the Muhaddithun: Reconsidering the Treatment of ‘Historical’ Materials in Early Collections of Hadith”,International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 28, No. 1, Feb. 1996, pp.1-18.

I don't see where you're going with this argumentation, but the fact remains, the Maghazi/Saraya genre are reports on the actions of the Prophet Muhammad, hence a hadith (by def), and the historical reports in Ibn Sa'd's Tabaqat should be assessed in terms of their authenticity per requirement of WP:MOS/Islam. Simple.

So, please stop repeating again and again the same wrong arguments. Regards, 21:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Responding to Eperoton about Lists

There are several Muslim soruces with a large list of Muhammad's expeditions. I mention them in the "Article for deletion" page. See these:
Source 1 which lists as a group

From Atlas Al-sīrah Al-Nabawīyah, pg. 218, Dr. Shawqi Abu Khalil, Darussalam Publishers

Source 2 which lists as a group

Excerpt from: Hawarey, Dr. Mosab (2010). The Journey of Prophecy; Days of Peace and War (Arabic). Islamic Book Trust. ISBN 9789957051648. {{cite book}}: External link in |first= (help)

Source 3 which lsits as a group, type Ghazwah

From the Maghazi of Ibn Sa'd

Source 4 which lists a group, ordered chronologically year by year, starting page 3 from saudi arabian government website

From the King Abdulaziz University

Finally there is no wikipedia policy against mentioning primary soruces or reasons in list. That is a matter of opinion. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 18:41, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: What is your point? No one is disputing that lists of expeditions exist in RSs. Only the last one of yours is a historical RS (a marginal one, but still), and the table there is even more compact than Watt's. Eperoton (talk) 19:09, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Table is not compact. The rest is on pg. 249 which is not part of the google books preview. Go buy the book if you wanna see the rest. Or check hawarey source which has more. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 19:12, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: No, the RS among your links is the economics article in the Saudi journal. WP history articles should rely on academic sources. Carefully chosen Islamic publications can be used to source traditional Islamic interpretations of events, but they don't meet WP:RS criteria for basic treatment of historical subjects. Eperoton (talk) 19:26, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Darussalam Publishers is the WORDS LARGEST islamic book publisher. It is therefore consider reliable an d oteable, especially since the authors are also academics. Hawarey and Shaqi are academics working at universities. By the way this is a matter for the reliable sources noticeboard, it is no reaosn to make a decision on your own and discoutn nad source and remove it before consulting them--Misconceptions2 (talk) 19:27, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: The size of the publisher has nothing to do with reliability. Academic credentials of the authors are another story. According to his personal page, Hawarey is not a professional historian. Per WP:RS, please demonstrate the credentials of Shawqi Abu Khalil as a mainstream historian by pointing us to his peer-reviewed academic publications. Thanks. Eperoton (talk) 19:36, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is the correct hawarey: http://mohd.hawarey.org/en.html from the University of Damascus . We will just argue if we discuss what is and is not reliable even though these are all muslim sources from major publishers. This is a matter for the Reliable source noticeboard and will NOT ge resolved you. Furthermore it is not a clear cut reason to delete data as the question of reliability is contentious.--Misconceptions2 (talk) 19:39, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: No, the first Hawarey is the correct one. From the website: "This table is part of Dr. Mosa'b Hawarey's book". The other Hawarey has a different name. Per WP:ONUS, if you want to rely on a source from a non-academic publisher in a history article, it's your responsibility to establish its reliability, not the RS noticeboard's. Eperoton (talk) 19:50, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See http://mohd.hawarey.org/kitab07.html click the image of the book, it says "Dr. Mohamed Mosaab Hawary" is the author on the image. The book is on the page of this hawarey http://mohd.hawarey.org/en.html (Mohammad Hawarey aka Dr Dr. Mohamed Mosaab Hawary) and not Mosab Hawarey. Tell someone who speaks arabic to translate this page for you: http://www.hawarey.org/images/rehla1.jpg --Misconceptions2 (talk) 19:59, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: The name Mos'ab is mentioned nowhere in the bio sketch. Anyway, even if the book was written by the other Hawary, where are his credentials as a historian? Eperoton (talk) 20:20, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The image here: http://www.hawarey.org/images/rehla1.jpg says "Dr. Mohamed Mosaab Hawary" is the author. We can get a 3rd party arabic speaking person to confirm that if you want? His credentials are mentioned here: http://mohd.hawarey.org/en.html (master of tafseer, he is a mufassir). He is an academic from the University of Damascus --Misconceptions2 (talk) 20:24, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I can read the title. Being a specialist in Quranic interpretation does not establish reliability of his non-peer-reviewed publications in history. Really, Misconceptions2 please stop for a minute and think about what we should be doing here. Per WP:NPOV, we have to reflect RSs according to their prominence in their academic field. So, we should take the most influential references on the subject and make sure we reflect them with appropriate WP:WEIGHT. What you're trying to do is something entirely different and contrary to the spirit of this policy. You're dredging out any source you can find to support your design of the table. You're having trouble even demonstrating that the couple of sources you've managed to find meet the basic requirements as RSs, and it's simply absurd to suggest that they should be given comparable weight to Watt's book, which is still the principal academic reference on the subject. Eperoton (talk) 20:39, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I shall not argue about wether these 4 sources published by major publishers and academic authors is reliable or not any longer. Take it to the Reliable sources noticeboard. Some arguments are just not worth having. Lets move on to hte next content dispute, which other written text on here do you have an issue with?--Misconceptions2 (talk) 20:45, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: The first two can be considered as WP:RS, the third is WP:PRIMARY, I didn't look into more detail for the other one; But in any case does any of them mention the authenticity of reports on that event?

20:46, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

I can't say I'm surprised that Misconceptions2 wants to "move on" again without addressing policy-based arguments. In the larger scheme of things, debating this article has been a tremendous time sink and the debate just doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I think I will take this occasion to WP:DISENGAGE. Eperoton (talk) 21:02, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Eperoton: I don't think that leaving someone violate WP:SYNTHESIS, WP:OR, ...etc and other policies constitutes a proper application of WP:DISENGAGE etiquette.

18:36, 20 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: It is. I think there have been too many contradictory viewpoints here and not enough cooperative spirit to reach a consensus. I would appreciate a ping if there's an escalation of WP:DR, though. Eperoton (talk) 19:37, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

CounterTime states a reason for why this article should not be deleted and why he is not happy with it is because some of the rows are missing secondary sources. he said "4, 10, 11, 55, 71, ...etc" are missing secondary sources, in Afd page. If that is the case then this is a totally fixable problem. All we have to do is get the secondary sources from the relevant page and put them on this page. E.g get the secondary soruces of 51 from here: Expedition of Abu Qatadah ibn Rab'i al-Ansari (Batn Edam) . This applies to the rest he mentioned. Proposal: Please list any rows missing secondary sources here and I shall add them all. Its very easy since they are all in the article pages .--Misconceptions2 (talk) 00:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: My primary reason for the deletion of the article is that it constitutes synthesis (see WP:SYNTHESIS). My primary reason for the lack of quality of the article is that the RSs cited do not speak about the authenticity, hence violating WP:MOS/Hadith. The other reason being that saraya are mostly non military, so what are they doing in a military expeditions article?

And also, PLEASE stop starting several new sections, while ignoring and/or choosing to refrain from ongoing discussions. This is very disruptive and not an effective way of trying to solve the issues.

10:52, 20 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

If you have an RS issue the solution is to to take it to the RS noticeboard. I disagree with your claims about it not being RS so we would not be able to solve it here. What is your next concern. Please mention all text or rows here which are problematic and why?--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:26, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2:

I'm not having an RS issue. My primary reason for the deletion of the article is that it constitutes synthesis (see WP:SYNTHESIS). My primary reason for the lack of quality of the article is that the RSs cited do not speak about the authenticity, hence violating WP:MOS/Hadith. The other reason being that saraya are mostly non military, so what are they doing in a military expeditions article?

17:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

1. #71 on list called Expedition of Abu Qatadah ibn Rab'i al-Ansari (Batn Edam) on this article uses primary sources only.

• • How to fix:
  • Get secondary sources from Expedition of Abu Qatadah ibn Rab'i al-Ansari (Batn Edam) and put on this article.
  • Source 1: Atlas Al-sīrah Al-Nabawīyah, pg. 218, Dr. Shawqi Abu Khalil, Darussalam Publishers
  • Source 2: Hawarey, Dr. Mohammad (2010). The Journey of Prophecy; Days of Peace and War (Arabic). Islamic Book Trust. ISBN 9789957051648. {{cite book}}: External link in |first= (help)Note: Book contains a list of battles of Muhammad in Arabic, English translation available here
  • Source 3: The Sealed Nectar, pg. 250, Safiur Rahman Mubarakpuri, Darussalam Publishers. (archive)
  • Comment: All 3 sources are Muslim Sources so Muslims should prefer them over non muslim sources. Edit war less likely.

2. Fix Hawarey link. Correct link to Hawarey profile page is: Dr Mohamed Musabn Hawarey Profile (archive) a scholar from the University of Damascus. Proof he is author of book: Front Page of book. Note: On front page image of book it shows author is "Dr. Mohamed Mosaab Hawary". Make Reference as below:

• • Hawarey, Dr. Mohammad (2010). The Journey of Prophecy; Days of Peace and War (Arabic). Islamic Book Trust. ISBN 9789957051648. {{cite book}}: External link in |first= (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link). Note1: On front page image of book it shows author is "Dr. Mohamed Mosaab Hawary". Note2: Book contains a list of battles of Muhammad in Arabic, English translation available here

--Misconceptions2 (talk) 18:45, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

@Misconceptions2: Per WP:MOS/Islam the authenticity of Prophetic reports and narrations should be reflected, do any of these source speak about the authenticity of these reports?

20:48, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

Where on MOISLAM does it say that every hadith has to be evaluated. If you wanna evaluate a hadith do it from www.sunnah.com . Type hadith in there. They have evaluation. E.g http://sunnah.com/urn/1262630 they rated that one as "Hassan". They have an evaluation for all hadith and sometimes comments like "These verses were abrogated in recitation but not ruling. Other ahadith establish the number for fosterage to be 5."--Misconceptions2 (talk) 20:57, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: The linked article makes it explicit: Articles on hadith should make clear the reliability of the hadith.

I'm talking about the authenticity of the reports on "Expedition of Abu Qatadah ibn Rab'i al-Ansari (Batn Edam)" that are found in Ibn Sa'd's tabaqat for instance, and not some random hadith that has no relevance here.

20:58, 19 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

See above I already replied to this. Evaluation is wrong word. "Garde" is correct word--Misconceptions2 (talk) 21:05, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is an extreme attempt at synthesizing materials by Misconceptions2 to reach a conclusion not stated by the authors. As WP:Synthesis explicitly states "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." Unless the authors clearly state what is being referenced, it should not be included. Misconceptions2 still refuses to properly engage in the discussions, but has chosen instead to start several new sections, while ignoring and/or choosing to refrain from ongoing discussions. This is very disruptive and not an effective way of trying to solve the issues. Xtremedood (talk) 06:30, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"All 3 sources are Muslim Sources so Muslims should prefer them over non muslim sources. Edit war less likely."
Did you forget the fact that Wikipedia Editors should not be biased and analyze and research accordingly. This must be a joke from your part, time to get serious. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 04:56, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So I decided to verify some sources... what I found was that many (amongst the few entries I checked) are either misinterpretations or fail completely verification, here are some examples

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad&diff=712086558&oldid=712085122
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad&diff=712084175&oldid=712083922
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad&diff=712083748&oldid=712083152
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad&diff=712083152&oldid=712082713

We ask @Misconceptions2: for some explanations... 21:39, 26 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)[reply]

See here also: Talk:Expedition of Hamza ibn 'Abdul-Muttalib#Lies of Misconceptions2. Al-Andalusi (talk) 21:47, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Al-Andalusi: Thanks for pointing that, and for confirming my doubts. 23:11, 26 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)[reply]

Comments (removal of primary sources despite merely only mentioning them and not using them for references)

• 1st link

• Expedition of Ali ibn Abi Talib (Mudhij) secondary sources mentions Muadz was Muhammad's envoy sent to yemen who the tribe surrendered to.
• Sahih al-Bukhari, 2:24:573 ALSO mentions he was sent to yemen to make people surrender to islam.

• 2nd link

• You are right. I mentioned: Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:59:627, Sahih Muslim, 19:4330, Sunan Abu Dawood, 14:2672 is related to the Nejd caravan raid. But it seems only 2 of the 3 are. i made a mistake on the 3rd primary source its about soemthing compeltely different. I must have mistyped a number. But there ware many hadith in Sunan Abu Dawud mentioning the "najd" expedition. Search najd here: https://archive.org/stream/HadithSunanAbuDawudInEnglish/SunanAbuDawud-english_djvu.txt

• 3rd link

• I quoted Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:59:458 . This primary source EXPLICITLY mentions Muhammad performed a miracle whereby he took the sword of an assassin and said "Who can save you from me"
• The secondary sources in Invasion of Thi Amr also explicitly mention that during this event Muhammad performed a miracle whereby he took the sword of an assassin and said "who will protect you from me" (same thing translation difference)

• 4th link

• Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:57:74 . This primary source EXPLICITLY mentions Sa'd was the first to shoot an arrow for Islam,
• The secondary sources in Batn Rabigh Caravan Raid also EXPLICITLY mentions Sa'd was the first to shoot an arrow for Islam.

Please note that these primary sources have not been used to verify information. It has been mentioned just to notify the viewer what the primary sources are.

--Misconceptions2 (talk) 22:02, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: As I said in my talk:

1. That's the precise definition of WP:SYNTHESIS: 'Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.' Kindly adhere to WP policies.

2. Okay, that sometimes occurs, perfectly natural.

3. That's the precise definition of WP:SYNTHESIS: 'Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.' Kindly adhere to WP policies.

4. That's the precise definition of WP:SYNTHESIS: 'Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.' Kindly adhere to WP policies.

All of these are instances of WP:SYNTHESIS, so you're only confirming my stance.

Regards,

22:10, 26 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: Would you please specify what conclusion is reached or implied in these cases? --Rentier (talk) 10:52, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Rentier: Sure, for (1) the primary source doesn't explicitly mention "Expedition of Ali ibn Abi Talib" or anything close to that, Misconceptions2 used secondary sources to claim that this primary source implicitly does that, this falls under WP:SYNTHESIS. For (3), again same thing, look at what Misconceptions2 stated:

This primary source EXPLICITLY mentions Muhammad performed a miracle [...] The secondary sources in Invasion of Thi Amr also explicitly mention that during this event Muhammad performed a miracle

— Misconceptions2 (talk · contribs)

For (4), again the same thing, see what he states: "This primary source EXPLICITLY mentions Sa'd was the first to shoot an arrow for Islam, The secondary sources in Batn Rabigh Caravan Raid also EXPLICITLY mentions Sa'd was the first to shoot an arrow for Islam."

Regards,

11:07, 27 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@CounterTime: Do you believe that the primary sources could refer to different events than the secondary sources in these cases? I am not sure about (1), but in (3) and (4) the connection strikes me as obvious. SYNTH is not obvious. But I have little prior knowledge on the subject, so I am open to being proved wrong. --Rentier (talk) 11:26, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Rentier: The primary sources section should contain refs that directly mention these events, something that is not obviously verifiable in these cases, plus there is no explicit mention of these expeditions or their names in the primary sources themselves.

11:40, 27 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

@Rentier: Historiography of early Islam is complex and contentious and points which may seem obvious usually aren't. These cases attempt to connect material from two different genres of primary sources (sira/maghazi and hadith) based on circumstantial cues. There are different reasons why RS may not support these connections, with the most straightforward one being the different assessments of historicity. Many, if not most secondary sources which rely on reports from one of these genres would not consider reports from the other genre to be authentic. Eperoton (talk) 13:19, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have asked some admins to comment on whether this is SYNTHESIS or not. Am hoping for a 3rd opinion. I never implied anything by mentioning the primary source. I am merely informing the reader what the primary source for this event is. I do not understand how merely mentioning a primary source for an event constitutes WP SYNTHESIS--Misconceptions2 (talk) 22:39, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This may not be the third opinion you were hoping for, but I agree with CounterTime that you need to cite RSs which explicitly connect each primary source to the corresponding event. Eperoton (talk) 22:55, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think we all know here that in many of the cases the link between the primary soruce and the secondary source is CLEAR CUT, they both say same thing. Like in the Batn Rabigh caravan raid. CounterTime just seems to not like the primary sources being mentioned even when its clear cut because he probably feels it makes muhammad look bad? --Misconceptions2 (talk) 23:03, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Misconceptions2: "not like the primary sources being mentioned even when its clear cut because he probably feels it makes muhammad look bad?" WHAT???

I only argued that the given sources violated WP:SYNTHESIS, the "link between primary source and secondary source" falls under that.

23:07, 26 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)

It's absolutely disgusting the lengths at which this user, Misconceptions2, goes to make such personal attacks on people. Misattributing primary sources, means that he is not only violating WP's WP:NOR policy, but he is also lying about what is stated in these sources. This is evident throughout his articles. Xtremedood (talk) 05:46, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Xtremedood: Well he just revealed his bias, I don't think this will add to his credibility, especially in the light of past events. 10:21, 27 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)[reply]

A map with arrows for expiditions and a symbols for battles would be VERY interesting/valuable. -- AstroU (talk) 22:48, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is a nice map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad#/media/File:Map_of_expansion_of_Caliphate.svg -- AstroU (talk) 23:05, 27 March 2016 (UTC) -- The map is already stored, showing expansion per Jihad. Arrows and 'x's could be added, Nicht Var?[reply]

@AstroU: Why add a map of the expansion during all the caliphates in an article about a particular era? 17:16, 28 March 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)[reply]

So why are there any red links? _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 16:25, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Starting a new section to make this discussion easier to locate. First, let me try to summarize what I think is the current range of opinions on the matter. I'm including only those who have made a substantive contribution to the discussion. Please correct me if I'm missing anyone or misstating something. I believe CounterTime, Al-Andalusi, and Xtremedood have all argued for removal of this column (or deletion of the entire article), though I'm not entirely sure if it was on WP:TNT rationale or because they were against including this column in any form; Misconceptions2 has argued for keeping it; Rentier didn't have a strong opinion on this point, but suggested renaming the column to "Summary".

For myself, I have argued for removing the column based on WP:NPOV (now with two RSs to go by), though I've also noted that my substantive problem is not with inclusion of details in this article per se, but with the inadequate way they're currently represented, which is partly due to the constraints of the tabular format, partly to the arbitrary choice of the column title, and partly due to the quality of content. I'd like to see if we can't find a middle ground between these positions that addresses the core concerns of on all sides. I would be willing to go with keeping properly sourced content in this column here as an experiment, if we can agree to rename this column "Summary" and break the table with essay-form text when it is needed to allow proper presentation of historical/historiographical context. These changes would presumably mirror improvements made to the individual articles, so there will be a future possibility of reducing this article to a simple list without losing the added content. Thoughts? Eperoton (talk) 17:46, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Entire column just vanished i am trying to revert the person but is not working. help me. do i have to make account? - Amit

Muslms cannot be trusted, I tried to revert the, but it is not work. Entire column just vanished. What kind of name is Andalusi, seems ISsupporter--103.41.212.74 (talk) 17:51, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]