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Featured articleLion is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
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September 30, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
August 12, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
September 24, 2007Featured article candidatePromoted
April 14, 2011Featured article reviewKept
Current status: Featured article

Finding words

BhagyaMani Can I ask how it is that you have been unable to find "Northern lions" and "Southern lions" in this document by Manuel et al., even with the function of "CTRL F", while double-reverting my edits in this article, in Panthera leo melanochaita ([1]), and in Panthera leo leo ([2]), while under the false impression that the phrases "Northern lion" and "Southern lion" were used "ONLY in combination with the word LINEAGE, or that "They used 'southern / northern LINEAGE' but NOT 'southern / northern lion'"?

  • "Northern lion" and "Northern lions" (which is not paired with the word 'lineage') each occur 2 times in the section "Results and Discussion"
  • "Northern lion" and "Northern lions" each occur once in the subsection "Population History of Modern Lions" (in which "Northern lion" is paired with "lineages", but only in this case)
  • "Northern lions" occurs once in the subsection "Inbreeding in Lions",
  • "Northern lion clade" occurs once in the subsection "Implications for Conservation"
  • "Southern lions" (which is not paired with the word 'lineage') occurs once in the subsection "Inbreeding in Lions" Leo1pard (talk) 11:32, 19 May 2020 (UTC); edited 11:33, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BhagyaMani I see that you have decided to focus on black-footed cats or cats in ancient Egypt instead. What's interesting about your double-reversions in this article, Panthera leo melanochaita and Panthera leo leo, all of which were done using WP:Twinkle, is that:

  • At first, after I told you about using "CTRL F" to search for "northern lion" and "southern lion" in the document by Manuel et al., you said "They used 'southern / northern LINEAGE' but NOT 'southern / northern lion' in the article for P. l. melanochaita, which makes it appear that you put in "northern" or "southern" in the search box, without putting in "lion", and thus you saw "northern lineage" or "southern lineage", but not "northern lion" or "southern lion", but then
  • When editing P. l. leo and this article, you said "They did NOT, but ONLY in combination with LINEAGE", which implies that you did not pay attention to the first instance of the phrase "northern lion", because it occurs as "northern lions", not as "northern lion lineage", and likewise, that you didn't pay attention to the instance of "southern lion" appearing as "southern lions", not as "southern lion lineage"!
Why did you make such contradictory statements, or have such a change of attitude about whether or not the phrases "northern lion" and "southern lion" existed in that document, in a matter of less than 6 minutes, as if you were in a haste to revert someone else's edits, like I see you were elsewhere, all using WP:Twinkle, especially after Kmzayeem talked to you about your habit of repeatedly reverting other people's edits? Leo1pard (talk) 05:59, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you telling me that I have been working on black-footed cat? I also know that I did !! And this had priority over answering your questions, as I had nominated this page for GA. It just passed -- , BhagyaMani (talk) 16:55, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Re your questions: I did search Manuel et al. (2020) for the keywords 'northern' and 'southern', but found them in combination with 'lineage', 'lion clade', 'group', but NOT implying a subspecific name that YOU read into this. I still don't think that using common names for these 2 subspecies is important. This article provides a host of info that is far more relevant to add to the respective lion pages than (assumed) names. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 16:55, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So you didn't see "northern lions" or "southern lions", just bits "in combination with 'lineage', 'lion clade', 'group', but NOT implying a subspecific name"? Don't be too sure, because just as Ji H. Mazák referred to P. t. tigris and P. t. sondaica respectively as "Mainland Asia tiger" and "Sunda Island tiger" in 2008 (albeit before the Cat Classification Taskforce of the Cat Specialist Group officially recognised them as subspecies in 2017, barring a subsequent study by CSG members Stephen O’Brien, Shu-Jin Luo and Carlos Driscoll in 2018), Marc de Manuel et al. referred to P. l. leo and P. l. melanochaita and "northern" and "southern lions" respectively, and like I told Tijkil, the issue of subspecies of lions is linked with those of tigers, because the main CSG recognised only 2 subspecies of lions in 2017, as with for tigers, but then, just as some CSG members (O’Brien, Luo and Driscoll) rebelled against the classification of 2 subspecies for tigers, by insisting on there being 6 monophyletic clades of tigers, or 6 living subspecies of tigers, in 2018, we now have a study which suggests that the taxonomic position of Central African lions may need to be revised, and this study was done by people, including CSG members O’Brien and Nobuyuki Yamaguchi, so watch out for what's going on within the CSG! Leo1pard (talk) 10:09, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lion origins

BhagyaMani, I don't know why you're insisting that the earliest lions did not originate from Africa, even though your source (Werdelin) clearly states that they did. It did not say that the lion fossils found in Tanzania were merely modern lions. You have also cited Tseng (2014) for the claim that lions originated in Asia but what it actually states is "This is then followed by later Miocene dispersal of the lion–leopard–jaguar lineage and then Pliocene dispersal of the fossil ‘lions’. According to the DEC models, the last two dispersals probably occurred from Africa-Palearctic or Holarctic ancestral geographical ranges." Its stating that fossil lions could have originated anywhere in Africa or the Holoarctic. I personally think this information is unhelpful to readers and we should merely state that the earliest known lion fossils are found in Africa. LittleJerry (talk) 12:50, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think there are several issues here. Firstly, the earliest fossil lions are 2 million years ago in Africa. This might not be the earliest lion. Secondly, the genetic evidence on lineages (Johnson et al, 2006, Li et al, 2017) suggests a possible earlier Asian origin, but one without fossil evidence. A third issue is that the modern lions can be traced to a more recent African ancestor (~250 kya?). This is just off the top of my head so I'd need to check the details. —  Jts1882 | talk  13:33, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Re 'secondly': this is what I understood too, given that all authors agree about Panthera having radiated from Central Asia, with the leo lineage having migrated south / southwest, and the 2 cave lion lineages towards north, northwest and northeast; and that the Olduvai fossils are attributed to leo. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 14:28, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alternate purposes of the mane

LittleJerry On one hand, the main purpose of the mane is considered to be playing a role in sexual attraction towards females. On the other hand, the mane's length is considered to signal fighting success in male–male relationships, with it acting as protection for the neck and throat in territorial fights with rivals, and I've seen it myself, not just in fights between male lions, but also between lions and tigers in captivity. Tigers are supposed to have longer canines and stronger bite-forces than lions, yet I've seen plenty of cases where tigers failed to kill lions with their regular method of killing, that is to bite the throat or neck. If the manes did not offer any protection for the lions' throats or necks, then those lions should have been doomed when the tigers aimed for their throats or necks! Leo1pard (talk) 12:42, 7 August 2020 (UTC); edited 12:43, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The mane being neck protection is no longer valid. [3] LittleJerry (talk) 12:39, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it is, because the mane has been seen to be a form of protection, contrary to what this reference says, and the case of one reference contradicting another means WP:Conflicting sources, so we have to take a WP:Neutral POV. But as it is, you missed something in the given source:

Even though today manes don't seem to offer protection, West says a protective role could have been the reason the trait evolved in the first place. In the early evolution of the trait, males may have gone straight for the neck, making individuals with manes harder to attack and thus more favored by natural selection. As evolution continued and more and more males developed manes, attacking the neck area would no longer have been an effective fighting strategy, causing lions to try for the back side instead.

Leo1pard (talk) 17:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC); edited 18:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

She said "could have". We should mention the function that has the most evidence. LittleJerry (talk) 01:32, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
BhagyaMani OK, let's finish the discussion first. LittleJerry Not just that, even Peyton West et al. could not refute the idea held by Joubert and others that the mane at least made it hard for opponents to kill male lions by trying to bite their necks. What West et al. actually said is that lions were shown to attack rivals at their backs or hindquarters, whether or not they were maned, therefore that the presence of the mane did not influence their style of fighting style, not that the manes cannot protect the lions' necks at all! You can even ask Tijkil, who like me has seen fights between lions and tigers, and I believe that he would agree with me that if it wasn't for their thick manes (not think or scanty manes, like the juvenile Huerte, or what happened at Ankara Zoo), then the male lions in those fights should have been doomed when the tigers (which are considered to have stronger bites, besides longer canines) aimed for their nacks, like this leopard, right Tijkil?

According to Christiansen, Wroe et al., tigers have higher average bite forces (such as at the canine tips) than lions. The bite force adjusted for body mass allometry (BFQ) for tiger is 127, while that for lion is 112. Tigers have well-developed sagittal crests and coronoid processes, providing muscle attachment for their strong bites. Tigers also have exceptionally stout teeth, and the canines are the longest and biggest among all living felids (barring hybrids like the liger), measuring from 7.5 to 10 cm (3.0 to 3.9 in) in length, and are larger and longer than those of a similar-sized lion, probably because tigers need to bring down larger prey alone than lions, which usually hunt large prey in groups, according to Sunquist & Sunquist, and World Animal Foundation Leo1pard (talk) 07:01, 13 August 2020 (UTC); edited 08:25, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Could have. May be. Perhaps. : This page is NOT the place to speculate ! NOR rely on pers. comms. with other editors ! Readers have access to both relevant articles presenting research methods + results, and can speculate themselves, privately, after reading the full versions. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:12, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
BhagyaMani It is basically confirmed that lions tend to avoid the necks when fighting each other, preferring instead the hindquarters or the backs, and that manes make it at least difficult to bite the neck of male lions with thick manes. Leo1pard (talk) 08:27, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What we discuss here, is the CONTENT of the section on main page, but not what is basically.... The images do not contribute ANYthing to this discussion on content. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:37, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, but it is basically confirmed that the thick mane of a lion makes it hard for a rival to bite its neck, and that lions tend to fight or kill each by aiming for their backs or hindquarters, rather than their necks. And to quote Packer & West, the length of the mane is related to a lion's success in fighting, so we have an abundance of sources showing that the manes of lions are useful in fights with their rivals, not useless! Leo1pard (talk) 11:42, 13 August 2020 (UTC); edited 11:43, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here's what Packer and West say in their article. LittleJerry (talk) 00:45, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

However, we could find no evidence that lions primarily attack the neck/shoulder region or that wounds to this area are especially harmful(14). Further, all felids are similarly armed, yet the lion is the only species with a conspicuous male ornament. Owing to their complex social system, lions are the only felid in which males and females can regularly compare males, and excess females can freely choose among them. Thus, the mane might have evolved to signal male genetic and/or phenotypic condition.

Yes, that's right, male lions usually don't attack each other the area of the neck (which is covered by the mane), whereas tigers for instance regularly attack or kill their victims by aiming for their necks. This kind of fight, in which the mane was targeted, is therefore rare, but even then, both of them survived, so the thick mane does make it hard for a rival to bite its neck, and even tigers have found that hard. Leo1pard (talk) 05:01, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Did you miss the bolded part? LittleJerry (talk) 09:33, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, it means that the lion has a unique style of fighting among felids, because of its unique mane. Leo1pard (talk) 15:23, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It means that the "fighting" explanation does not explain why elaborate manes didn't evolved in other cats. LittleJerry (talk) 22:57, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly!!!! This is a question I had in mind aaaall the time: since all other male carnivores fight, why did only the male lion develop a mane ?? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 07:54, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Either way, the lion has a unique system of fighting, just as it has a unique mane and a unique social system, within the genus Panthera, like how the tiger is unique in this genus for having stripes rather than spots, considering that the other species (the lion, leopard, jaguar and snow leopard) all have spots or rosettes (with lions being spotted at birth). Leo1pard (talk) 07:50, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You said that the because of the mane, the lion has a unique fight style. Now you're saying it has the mane because of how it fights. LittleJerry (talk) 13:18, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, I said that the lion has a unique system of fighting, just as it has a unique mane and a unique social system, within the genus Panthera, not that the lion has the mane because of its style of fighting! Leo1pard (talk) 06:17, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Minor suggestion - Melbourne Zoo photo description

Hi, just a minor edit suggestion for the Melbourne Zoo lion photo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion#/media/File:Lion_-_melbourne_zoo.jpg.

The description is emotive, saying that the lion is enjoying the moment. No other photo uses this emotive language. We also have no idea if the emotion is accurate, maybe the lion is just tired and yawning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaizoku-D (talk • contribs) 07:54, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

This line seems grammatically weird:

> Lions also enter waterways, evidenced by the occasional lion claw found in crocodile stomachs.[138]

If it's saying Crocodiles sometimes kill and eat lions, something like:

> Crocodiles may also kill Lions who enter waterways, evidenced by the occasional lion claw found in crocodile stomachs.[138] 70.186.123.3 (talk) 07:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2020

LIONS DRIVE CARS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.154.164 (talk) 21:26, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lion&oldid=981030254

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