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LittleJerry On one hand, the main purpose of the mane is considered to be playing a role in sexual attraction towards females. On the other hand, the mane's length is considered to signal fighting success in male–male relationships, with it acting as protection for the neck and throat in territorial fights with rivals, and I've seen it myself, not just in fights between male lions, but also between lions and tigers in captivity. Tigers are supposed to have longer canines and stronger bite-forces than lions, yet I've seen plenty of cases where tigers failed to kill lions with their regular method of killing, that is to bite the throat or neck. If the manes did not offer any protection for the lions' throats or necks, then those lions should have been doomed when the tigers aimed for their throats or necks! Leo1pard (talk) 12:42, 7 August 2020 (UTC); edited 12:43, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The mane being neck protection is no longer valid. [1] LittleJerry (talk) 12:39, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it is, because the mane has been seen to be a form of protection, contrary to what this reference says, and the case of one reference contradicting another means WP:Conflicting sources, so we have to take a WP:Neutral POV. But as it is, you missed something in the given source:

Even though today manes don't seem to offer protection, West says a protective role could have been the reason the trait evolved in the first place. In the early evolution of the trait, males may have gone straight for the neck, making individuals with manes harder to attack and thus more favored by natural selection. As evolution continued and more and more males developed manes, attacking the neck area would no longer have been an effective fighting strategy, causing lions to try for the back side instead.

Leo1pard (talk) 17:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC); edited 18:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

She said "could have". We should mention the function that has the most evidence. LittleJerry (talk) 01:32, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BhagyaMani OK, let's finish the discussion first. LittleJerry Not just that, even Peyton West et al. could not refute the idea held by Joubert and others that the mane at least made it hard for opponents to kill male lions by trying to bite their necks. What West et al. actually said is that lions were shown to attack rivals at their backs or hindquarters, whether or not they were maned, therefore that the presence of the mane did not influence their style of fighting style, not that the manes cannot protect the lions' necks at all! You can even ask Tijkil, who like me has seen fights between lions and tigers, and I believe that he would agree with me that if it wasn't for their thick manes (not think or scanty manes, like the juvenile Huerte, or what happened at Ankara Zoo), then the male lions in those fights should have been doomed when the tigers (which are considered to have stronger bites, besides longer canines) aimed for their nacks, like this leopard, right Tijkil?

According to Christiansen, Wroe et al., tigers have higher average bite forces (such as at the canine tips) than lions. The bite force adjusted for body mass allometry (BFQ) for tiger is 127, while that for lion is 112. Tigers have well-developed sagittal crests and coronoid processes, providing muscle attachment for their strong bites. Tigers also have exceptionally stout teeth, and the canines are the longest and biggest among all living felids (barring hybrids like the liger), measuring from 7.5 to 10 cm (3.0 to 3.9 in) in length, and are larger and longer than those of a similar-sized lion, probably because tigers need to bring down larger prey alone than lions, which usually hunt large prey in groups, according to Sunquist & Sunquist, and World Animal Foundation Leo1pard (talk) 07:01, 13 August 2020 (UTC); edited 08:25, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Could have. May be. Perhaps. : This page is NOT the place to speculate ! NOR rely on pers. comms. with other editors ! Readers have access to both relevant articles presenting research methods + results, and can speculate themselves, privately, after reading the full versions. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:12, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BhagyaMani It is basically confirmed that lions tend to avoid the necks when fighting each other, preferring instead the hindquarters or the backs, and that manes make it at least difficult to bite the neck of male lions with thick manes. Leo1pard (talk) 08:27, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What we discuss here, is the CONTENT of the section on main page, but not what is basically.... The images do not contribute ANYthing to this discussion on content. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:37, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but it is basically confirmed that the thick mane of a lion makes it hard for a rival to bite its neck, and that lions tend to fight or kill each by aiming for their backs or hindquarters, rather than their necks. And to quote Packer & West, the length of the mane is related to a lion's success in fighting, so we have an abundance of sources showing that the manes of lions are useful in fights with their rivals, not useless! Leo1pard (talk) 11:42, 13 August 2020 (UTC); edited 11:43, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here's what Packer and West say in their article. LittleJerry (talk) 00:45, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

However, we could find no evidence that lions primarily attack the neck/shoulder region or that wounds to this area are especially harmful(14). Further, all felids are similarly armed, yet the lion is the only species with a conspicuous male ornament. Owing to their complex social system, lions are the only felid in which males and females can regularly compare males, and excess females can freely choose among them. Thus, the mane might have evolved to signal male genetic and/or phenotypic condition.

Yes, that's right, male lions usually don't attack each other the area of the neck (which is covered by the mane), whereas tigers for instance regularly attack or kill their victims by aiming for their necks. This kind of fight, in which the mane was targeted, is therefore rare, but even then, both of them survived, so the thick mane does make it hard for a rival to bite its neck, and even tigers have found that hard. Leo1pard (talk) 05:01, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Did you miss the bolded part? LittleJerry (talk) 09:33, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, it means that the lion has a unique style of fighting among felids, because of its unique mane. Leo1pard (talk) 15:23, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It means that the "fighting" explanation does not explain why elaborate manes didn't evolved in other cats. LittleJerry (talk) 22:57, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly!!!! This is a question I had in mind aaaall the time: since all other male carnivores fight, why did only the male lion develop a mane ?? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 07:54, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Either way, the lion has a unique system of fighting, just as it has a unique mane and a unique social system, within the genus Panthera, like how the tiger is unique in this genus for having stripes rather than spots, considering that the other species (the lion, leopard, jaguar and snow leopard) all have spots or rosettes (with lions being spotted at birth). Leo1pard (talk) 07:50, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You said that the because of the mane, the lion has a unique fight style. Now you're saying it has the mane because of how it fights. LittleJerry (talk) 13:18, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, I said that the lion has a unique system of fighting, just as it has a unique mane and a unique social system, within the genus Panthera, not that the lion has the mane because of its style of fighting! Leo1pard (talk) 06:17, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This line seems grammatically weird:

> Lions also enter waterways, evidenced by the occasional lion claw found in crocodile stomachs.[138]

If it's saying Crocodiles sometimes kill and eat lions, something like:

> Crocodiles may also kill Lions who enter waterways, evidenced by the occasional lion claw found in crocodile stomachs.[138] 70.186.123.3 (talk) 07:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done

Den, is the name given to the place where the lion lives. Lion is a wonderful creature and loves to live in groups. The group normally consists of a lion and more than one lioness. Priteshtiwari (talk) 04:01, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the opening it says "lions ranged throughout Africa, Eurasia, and North America". Africa, yes. Eurasia, ok. But North America? This would make sense if they still thought that Panthera Atrox(American lions) were a lion(panthera leo) subspecies. But we now know that they along with Eurasian cave lions(Panthera spelea) were distinct species that long diverged from modern lions. The species we know today only existed in Africa and part of Eurasia from Greece to southern Asia. Please fix this mistake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Profligate222 (talk • contribs) 02:54, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hey all. In the past years, the layout of this part about the lion subspecies has changed from list to table to list, and now back to table again. Imo, the list was the better solution. What do others think about this? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 09:25, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It should be a table to be consistent with the pages Leopard, Tiger in the genus. You can also see it in American black bear, Giraffe (previously featured), Cheetah. The table is structured which makes it easier for the reader to get the pennant data.--Cs california (talk) 09:25, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the necessity for consistency with pages on other species, because: a) there are only 2 lion subspecies and resp. pages; but b) several leopard and cheetah subspecies and resp. pages that are linked, and c) several pages on tiger pops that are also linked. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 09:43, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with BhagyaMani, the table is unnecessary and rather oversized, given that there are only two subspecies. If there were three or more, it might be warranted, but that is not the case. --SilverTiger12 (talk) 19:49, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Even if you don't have the table there should be an example image of both subspecies on the page somewhere --Cs california (talk) 00:30, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]