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== Hunting and diet == |
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Hello [[user:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]], |
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== "simulating sex" is homophobic phrasing == |
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I won't dispute that cluttering a featured article with too many pictures is not a good thing ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lion&diff=933952289&oldid=933856708 = your revert] of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lion&oldid=933856708#Hunting_and_diet my proposal]). |
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I.e. from "Males will also head-rub and roll around with each other before simulating sex together." under "Behaviour and ecology" then "Reproduction and life cycle". They have sex. [[Special:Contributions/31.20.106.40|31.20.106.40]] ([[User talk:31.20.106.40|talk]]) 10:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC) |
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However, I can't help regretting that, in a chapter dealing with [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion#Hunting_and_diet Hunting and diet], we don't have a series of pictures describing a typical hunting sequence, complete with the initial stalking and the final dragging of the prey to store it away from vultures and hyenas. |
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=== No it's not. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/172.56.82.219|172.56.82.219]] ([[User talk:172.56.82.219#top|talk]]) 09:15, 3 October 2023 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Xsign --> |
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Now, we ''do'' have such a series of pictures, [https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion#Alimentation_et_chasse as shown in the French article]. I am aware that it might mean moving away some of the existing photographs; but then, some of them (such as the one showing the lion's teeth) could quite well illustrate a different chapter, as they are not specific to hunting. |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2023 == |
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Well, I won't fight over that, anyway: it's up to you. Just a regret... [[User:Azurfrog|Azurfrog]] ([[User talk:Azurfrog|talk]]) 11:54, 8 January 2020 (UTC) |
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:But do you think it adds anything really specific that is not understandable by text? This article has alot of images already. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 19:11, 8 January 2020 (UTC) |
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:: Well, I do think the more the pictures exemplify and illustrate the text, the better it is. Which is the case here: first crawling to get "close to their prey before starting the attack" (1st pic), then "They usually pull it down by the rump" (2d pic), and "kill by a strangling bite to the throat" (3d one), and "sometimes drag large prey into cover" (4th one). The idea that pictures should somehow show preferably something that's ''not'' in the text is rather new to be: I just thought what it added here was precisely to have a very typical complete hunting sequence. <br>Of course, this is just my opinion, and I do agree that we already have pictures galore. There again, I certainly won't fight over it, so end of story, as far as I am concerned. [[User:Azurfrog|Azurfrog]] ([[User talk:Azurfrog|talk]]) 00:44, 9 January 2020 (UTC) |
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{{edit semi-protected|Lion|answered=yes}} |
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== Further edits == |
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Mountain Lions, Cougars, and Puma are classified as Lions. Fix it. |
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X == Asia & Africa are native to lions |
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Since the article is over 144,000 bytes, I think new edits should be monitored and any new information added should be discussed here first. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 00:24, 14 January 2020 (UTC) |
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Y == + America (that is all) |
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:I tend to agree [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 09:40, 14 January 2020 (UTC) |
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:I do too and think that LittleJerry does a great job to watch over and revise additions. -- [[User:BhagyaMani|BhagyaMani]] ([[User talk:BhagyaMani|talk]]) 09:46, 14 January 2020 (UTC) |
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:I agree that new edits need to be monitored, but we can't require that editors discuss changes first. That goes against the ethos of Wikipedia. We can be stricter on sourcing and edit summaries, but it would be hard to justify removal of a new section that was properly sourced and explained just because it wasn't discussed first. <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> [[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]] |[[User talk:Jts1882| talk]] </span> 10:00, 14 January 2020 (UTC) |
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Having ignorant people remove edits without looking into knowledge learned before them, is pathetic. |
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== Lions in Eurasia and America == |
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Such a simple fix I thought most knew. [[Special:Contributions/172.56.82.219|172.56.82.219]] ([[User talk:172.56.82.219|talk]]) 09:13, 3 October 2023 (UTC) |
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In the lead it states that "In the [[Pleistocene]], the lion ranged throughout Eurasia, Africa and North America, but today it has been reduced to fragmented populations in [[Sub-Saharan Africa]] and one critically endangered population in western India." This is misleading, while Eurasian [[cave hyena]] are deeply nested within living african spotted hyenas, the [[Panthera spelaea|Eurasian]] and [[American lion]]s belong to an entirely separate lineage that split from living lions around 1.9 million years ago (i.e. species level split), and was present in Eurasia by 600,000 years ago [https://www.openquaternary.com/articles/10.5334/oq.24/|1]. The expansion of living lions out of Africa also happened relatively recently, around 21,000 years ago during the terminal Pleistocene [https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-14-70|2] I'm not sure how this could elegantly worked into the lead though. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 18:42, 28 April 2020 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> No. They are a separate species from proper lions. [[User:Meters|Meters]] ([[User talk:Meters|talk]]) 09:28, 3 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:Suggested alt, recognizing that this is the lead and not the article body: "Members of the lion lineage were broadly distributed throughout Eurasia, Africa, and North America in the Pleistocene. The range of living lion extended from Africa into India and the Middle East; today, it has been reduced to [...]" ''[[User:Lythronaxargestes|Lythronaxargestes]]'' ([[User talk:Lythronaxargestes#top|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Lythronaxargestes|contribs]]) 07:48, 30 April 2020 (UTC) |
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: Update: New study: "[https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/04/28/1919423117 The evolutionary history of extinct and living lions]" in PNAS published yesterday, with nuclear genomic data of cave lions, suggests that the divergence took place 500,000 years ago, with no subsequent admixture. The terminology in the paper is confusing though as it inconsistently refers to the cave lion as a subspecies (''Panthera leo spelaea'') While referring to its Middle Pleistocene ancestor as ''[[Panthera fossilis]]''. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 18:58, 5 May 2020 (UTC) |
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== |
== Featured Images == |
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{{u|BhagyaMani}} Can I ask how it is that you have been unable to find "Northern lions" and "Southern lions" in this [https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/04/28/1919423117 document by Manuel ''et al.''], even with the function of "CTRL F", while double-reverting my edits in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lion&diff=957517910&oldid=957507702 this article], in ''[[Panthera leo melanochaita]]'' ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Panthera_leo_melanochaita&diff=957517336&oldid=957507463]), and in ''[[Panthera leo leo]]'' ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Panthera_leo_leo&diff=957517472&oldid=957510931]), while under the false impression that the phrases "Northern lion" and "Southern lion" were used "ONLY in combination with the word LINEAGE, or that "They used 'southern / northern LINEAGE' but NOT 'southern / northern lion'"? |
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* "Northern lion" and "Northern lions" (which is not paired with the word 'lineage') each occur 2 times in the section "Results and Discussion" |
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* "Northern lion" and "Northern lions" each occur once in the subsection "Population History of Modern Lions" (in which "Northern lion" is paired with "lineages", but only in this case) |
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* "Northern lions" occurs once in the subsection "Inbreeding in Lions", |
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* "Northern lion clade" occurs once in the subsection "Implications for Conservation" |
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* "Southern lions" (which is not paired with the word 'lineage') occurs once in the subsection "Inbreeding in Lions" [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 11:32, 19 May 2020 (UTC); edited 11:33, 19 May 2020 (UTC) |
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I’d like to suggest a change to the featured images, or in the very least to the lioness image. I’m a little biased, of course, as the images are my own. The [[c:File:Lion_waiting_in_Namibia.jpg|current male]] is a stunning specimen, so I won’t be too disappointed if the consensus is to keep it. Lions in sanctuaries are always just so majestic! This is a photo the biggest male I’ve seen, and my proposed [[c:File:Lion_at_Working_with_Wildlife_South_Africa.jpg|male image]]. |
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{{u|BhagyaMani}} I see that you have decided to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Black-footed_cat&diff=prev&oldid=957659343 focus] on [[black-footed cat]]s or [[cats in ancient Egypt]] instead. What's interesting about your double-reversions in this article, ''[[Panthera leo melanochaita]]'' and ''[[Panthera leo leo]]'', all of which were done using [[WP:Twinkle]], is that: |
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* At first, after I told you about using "CTRL F" to search for "northern lion" and "southern lion" in the [https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/04/28/1919423117 document by Manuel ''et al.''], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Panthera_leo_melanochaita&diff=prev&oldid=957517336 you said] "They used 'southern / northern LINEAGE' but NOT 'southern / northern lion' in the article for ''P. l. melanochaita'', which makes it appear that you put in "northern" or "southern" in the search box, without putting in "lion", and thus you saw "northern lineage" or "southern lineage", but not "northern lion" or "southern lion", but then |
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* When editing ''[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Panthera_leo_leo&diff=prev&oldid=957517472 P. l. leo]'' and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lion&diff=prev&oldid=957517910 this article], you said "They did NOT, but ONLY in combination with LINEAGE", which implies that you did not pay attention to the first instance of the phrase "northern lion", because it occurs as "northern lions", not as "northern lion lineage", and likewise, that you didn't pay attention to the instance of "southern lion" appearing as "southern lions", not as "southern lion lineage"! |
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: Why did you make such contradictory statements, or have such a change of attitude about whether or not the phrases "northern lion" and "southern lion" existed in that document, in a matter of less than 6 minutes, as if you were in a haste to revert someone else's edits, like I see you were [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sundarbans&diff=954682709&oldid=954679731 elsewhere], all using [[WP:Twinkle]], especially after {{u|Kmzayeem}} talked to you about your habit of repeatedly reverting other people's edits? [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 05:59, 20 May 2020 (UTC) |
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For a lioness, this is my [[c:File:Lioness_at_Working_with_Wildlife_South_Africa.jpg|proposed photo]] and the most impressive female I’ve ever seen. Bias aside, I really think she is a perfect example and an improvement over the current lioness image. Hopefully my contribution can help! [[User:AfricanConservation|AfricanConservation]] ([[User talk:AfricanConservation|talk]]) 15:36, 28 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::Why are you telling me that I have been working on black-footed cat? I also know that I did !! And this had priority over answering your questions, as I had nominated this page for GA. It just passed -- {{kitty}}, [[User:BhagyaMani|BhagyaMani]] ([[User talk:BhagyaMani|talk]]) 16:55, 20 May 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' because the descriptions of both images contain a link to an organisation with which you are apparently affiliated. As User:331dot already explained to you on your talk page : this kind of advertising constitutes a conflict of interest. Remove this link, and I may change my mind. – [[User:BhagyaMani|BhagyaMani]] ([[User talk:BhagyaMani|talk]]) 02:18, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
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*:Apologies, these photos were uploaded before my talk with User:331dot and clarified. Link removed from both images. [[User:AfricanConservation|AfricanConservation]] ([[User talk:AfricanConservation|talk]]) 04:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 3 March 2024 == |
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: So you didn't see "northern lions" or "southern lions", just bits "in combination with 'lineage', 'lion clade', 'group', but NOT implying a subspecific name"? Don't be too sure, because just as [http://faculty.chas.uni.edu/~spradlin/SandE/Readings/Rebekah.pdf Ji H. Mazák] referred to ''[[Panthera tigris tigris|P. t. tigris]]'' and ''[[Panthera tigris sondaica|P. t. sondaica]]'' respectively as "Mainland Asia tiger" and "Sunda Island tiger" in 2008 (albeit before the [https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/handle/10088/32616/A_revised_Felidae_Taxonomy_CatNews.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y#page=66 Cat Classification Taskforce of the Cat Specialist Group] officially recognised them as subspecies in 2017, barring a [https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(18)31214-4?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982218312144%3Fshowall%3Dtrue subsequent study] by [https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/handle/10088/32616/A_revised_Felidae_Taxonomy_CatNews.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y#page=04 CSG members] Stephen O’Brien, Shu-Jin Luo and Carlos Driscoll in 2018), [https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/04/28/1919423117 Marc de Manuel ''et al''.] referred to ''P. l. leo'' and ''P. l. melanochaita'' and "northern" and "southern lions" respectively, and like I told {{u|Tijkil}}, the issue of subspecies of lions is linked with those of tigers, because the main CSG recognised only 2 subspecies of [https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/handle/10088/32616/A_revised_Felidae_Taxonomy_CatNews.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y#page=71 lions in 2017], as with for tigers, but then, just as some CSG members (O’Brien, Luo and Driscoll) rebelled against the classification of 2 subspecies for tigers, by insisting on there being 6 monophyletic clades of tigers, or 6 living subspecies of tigers, in 2018, we now have a study which suggests that the taxonomic position of Central African lions may need to be revised, and this study was done by people, including CSG members O’Brien and Nobuyuki Yamaguchi, so watch out for what's going on within the CSG! [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 10:09, 21 May 2020 (UTC) |
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{{edit semi-protected|Lion|answered=yes}} |
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== Lion origins == |
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In cultural significance -> western world the third sentence starts with: "Tfhe lion is featured in several of Aesop's fables...". There's a typo on the article, so "Tfhe" should be changed to "The". Thanks! [[User:Bullerr|Bullerr]] ([[User talk:Bullerr|talk]]) 16:01, 3 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> Thank you! --[[User:TheImaCow|TheImaCow]] ([[User talk:TheImaCow#top|talk]]) 21:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Bite force == |
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{{u|BhagyaMani}}, I don't know why you're insisting that the earliest lions did not originate from Africa, even though your source (Werdelin) clearly states that they did. It did not say that the lion fossils found in Tanzania were merely modern lions. You have also cited Tseng (2014) for the claim that lions originated in Asia but what it actually states is "This is then followed by later Miocene dispersal of the lion–leopard–jaguar lineage and then Pliocene dispersal of the fossil ‘lions’. According to the DEC models, the last two dispersals probably occurred from Africa-Palearctic or Holarctic ancestral geographical ranges." Its stating that fossil lions could have originated anywhere in Africa or the Holoarctic. I personally think this information is unhelpful to readers and we should merely state that the earliest known lion fossils are found in Africa. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 12:50, 22 May 2020 (UTC) |
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: I think there are several issues here. Firstly, the earliest fossil lions are 2 million years ago in Africa. This might not be the earliest lion. Secondly, the genetic evidence on lineages (Johnson et al, 2006, Li et al, 2017) suggests a possible earlier Asian origin, but one without fossil evidence. A third issue is that the modern lions can be traced to a more recent African ancestor (~250 kya?). This is just off the top of my head so I'd need to check the details. — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> [[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]] |[[User talk:Jts1882| talk]] </span> 13:33, 22 May 2020 (UTC) |
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::Re 'secondly': this is what I understood too, given that all authors agree about ''Panthera'' having radiated from Central Asia, with the ''leo'' lineage having migrated south / southwest, and the 2 cave lion lineages towards north, northwest and northeast; and that the Olduvai fossils are attributed to ''leo''. -- [[User:BhagyaMani|BhagyaMani]] ([[User talk:BhagyaMani|talk]]) 14:28, 22 May 2020 (UTC) |
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Hello to all of you. I added information on the biteforce of ''Panthera leo'' because other ''Pantheras'' have this information. I put it up here to let the three major page contributors—BhagyaMani, LittleJerry, and Casliber—know. As I can personally attest to, readers find this kind of information to be really helpful, so I advise leaving the edit rather than rolling it back. Having been a Wikipedia reader since 2018, I was dismayed to see no mention of bite force on any of my favorite articles. I hope I was able to serve the readers here. [[User:Wolverine XI|<span style="color:#000080;">'''''Wolverine'''''</span> <span style="color:#8A307F;">'''''XI'''''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Wolverine XI|<span style="color:#2C5F2D;">talk to me</span>]])</sup> 17:32, 6 April 2024 (UTC) |
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== Alternate purposes of the mane == |
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{{u|LittleJerry}} On one hand, the main purpose of the mane is considered to be playing a role in sexual attraction towards females. On the other hand, the mane's length is considered to signal fighting success in male–male relationships, with it acting as protection for the neck and throat in territorial fights with rivals, and I've seen it myself, not just in fights between male lions, but also between lions and tigers in captivity. Tigers are supposed to have longer canines and stronger bite-forces than lions, yet I've seen plenty of cases where tigers failed to kill lions with their regular method of killing, that is to bite the throat or neck. If the manes did not offer any protection for the lions' throats or necks, then those lions should have been doomed when the tigers aimed for their throats or necks! [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 12:42, 7 August 2020 (UTC); edited 12:43, 7 August 2020 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 03:02, 14 May 2024
 | Lion is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
"simulating sex" is homophobic phrasing
I.e. from "Males will also head-rub and roll around with each other before simulating sex together." under "Behaviour and ecology" then "Reproduction and life cycle". They have sex. 31.20.106.40 (talk) 10:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
=== No it's not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.82.219 (talk) 09:15, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2023
Mountain Lions, Cougars, and Puma are classified as Lions. Fix it.
X == Asia & Africa are native to lions Y == + America (that is all)
Having ignorant people remove edits without looking into knowledge learned before them, is pathetic.
Such a simple fix I thought most knew. 172.56.82.219 (talk) 09:13, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
Not done: No. They are a separate species from proper lions. Meters (talk) 09:28, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
Featured Images
I’d like to suggest a change to the featured images, or in the very least to the lioness image. I’m a little biased, of course, as the images are my own. The current male is a stunning specimen, so I won’t be too disappointed if the consensus is to keep it. Lions in sanctuaries are always just so majestic! This is a photo the biggest male I’ve seen, and my proposed male image.
For a lioness, this is my proposed photo and the most impressive female I’ve ever seen. Bias aside, I really think she is a perfect example and an improvement over the current lioness image. Hopefully my contribution can help! AfricanConservation (talk) 15:36, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose because the descriptions of both images contain a link to an organisation with which you are apparently affiliated. As User:331dot already explained to you on your talk page : this kind of advertising constitutes a conflict of interest. Remove this link, and I may change my mind. – BhagyaMani (talk) 02:18, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Apologies, these photos were uploaded before my talk with User:331dot and clarified. Link removed from both images. AfricanConservation (talk) 04:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 3 March 2024
In cultural significance -> western world the third sentence starts with: "Tfhe lion is featured in several of Aesop's fables...". There's a typo on the article, so "Tfhe" should be changed to "The". Thanks! Bullerr (talk) 16:01, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
Bite force
Hello to all of you. I added information on the biteforce of Panthera leo because other Pantheras have this information. I put it up here to let the three major page contributors—BhagyaMani, LittleJerry, and Casliber—know. As I can personally attest to, readers find this kind of information to be really helpful, so I advise leaving the edit rather than rolling it back. Having been a Wikipedia reader since 2018, I was dismayed to see no mention of bite force on any of my favorite articles. I hope I was able to serve the readers here. Wolverine XI (talk to me) 17:32, 6 April 2024 (UTC)