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== "simulating sex" is homophobic phrasing == |
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I.e. from "Males will also head-rub and roll around with each other before simulating sex together." under "Behaviour and ecology" then "Reproduction and life cycle". They have sex. [[Special:Contributions/31.20.106.40|31.20.106.40]] ([[User talk:31.20.106.40|talk]]) 10:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC) |
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=== No it's not. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/172.56.82.219|172.56.82.219]] ([[User talk:172.56.82.219#top|talk]]) 09:15, 3 October 2023 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Xsign --> |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2023 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Lion|answered=yes}} |
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Mountain Lions, Cougars, and Puma are classified as Lions. Fix it. |
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X == Asia & Africa are native to lions |
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Y == + America (that is all) |
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Having ignorant people remove edits without looking into knowledge learned before them, is pathetic. |
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Such a simple fix I thought most knew. [[Special:Contributions/172.56.82.219|172.56.82.219]] ([[User talk:172.56.82.219|talk]]) 09:13, 3 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> No. They are a separate species from proper lions. [[User:Meters|Meters]] ([[User talk:Meters|talk]]) 09:28, 3 October 2023 (UTC) |
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== Featured Images == |
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{{Graph:PageViews}} '''[[User:Punetor i Rregullt5|Punëtor i Rregullt5]] [[User talk:Punetor i Rregullt5|<sup>{talk}</sup>]]''' 16:12, 1 November 2018 (UTC) |
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I’d like to suggest a change to the featured images, or in the very least to the lioness image. I’m a little biased, of course, as the images are my own. The [[c:File:Lion_waiting_in_Namibia.jpg|current male]] is a stunning specimen, so I won’t be too disappointed if the consensus is to keep it. Lions in sanctuaries are always just so majestic! This is a photo the biggest male I’ve seen, and my proposed [[c:File:Lion_at_Working_with_Wildlife_South_Africa.jpg|male image]]. |
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== Mix-up == |
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Care should be taken as to which lions are in regions where the northern (''[[Panthera leo leo]]'') and southern (''[[Panthera leo melanochaita]]'') subspecies either overlap or co-occur, particularly for the Ethiopian lion (formerly ''P. l. abyssinica'' or ''P. l. roosevelti''). Due to its genetic make-up, the Ethiopian lion has become [[WP:notable]] amongst the populations, at least since 2012. Much has been written about it, since [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10344-012-0668-5 Bruche et al.] discovered that they were genetically different from other populations in [[East Africa]], and finally, the [https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/handle/10088/32616/A_revised_Felidae_Taxonomy_CatNews.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y Cat Specialist Group] had a note about this, saying that their country was a contact zone between the two subspecies, based on the work of [https://www.nature.com/articles/srep30807/figures/2 Bertola et al.], which depicts Ethiopia as one of the places where [[genetic admixture]] is likely, not the only one, and yes, people are interested in stuff like that, not just scientific names that reflect a recent revision of subspecies, look how much has been written about Ethiopian lions since the genetic test in 2012, for example ([https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/dna-confirms-ethiopian-lions-are-genetically-distinct-group-8207559.html] [https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/feb/01/lions-rediscovered-in-ethiopian-national-park] [https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/02/black-mane-ethiopian-lions-video-endangered-species/] [https://lionaid.org/news/2017/10/ethiopian-lions-unique-genetically-distinct-and-highly-endangered.htm] [https://www.york.ac.uk/news-and-events/features/addis-ababa-lion/]). In addition, "northern lion" and "northern subspecies" were not used by only one author, meaning people outside Wikipedia are interested in exactly which lion is which, as it is with tigers. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 06:17, 2 December 2018 (UTC); edited 06:28, 2 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:I removed ping, this is a current discussion with many interested parties, pinging one of them may be seen as unhelpful although they may wish to respond as I have done. Ignoring you is also okay at this stage, because the consensus appears to be that you are muddying the waters in a belligerent manner. People are investing their time in sorting this out, I'm becoming inclined to assist them by undertaking a process to see this account (and any other throwaways) censored by the community. So see a solution instead … |
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* [[Ethiopian lion]] currently redirects to [[Mixed lion populations]]. It has been suggested that [[Mixed lion populations]] should be merged to [[Northern lion]], which currently redirects to ''[[Panthera leo leo]]''. The outcome looks to be [[Ethiopian lion]] will redirect to the nominate subspecies article. Is that going to suit your conception of the population of ''Panthera leo'' (lions), or do you have another solution you can state in the form 'X should redirect to Y'. [[User talk:Cygnis insignis|cygnis insignis]] 08:18, 2 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:: "Mixed lions" is about lions that are both of the northern and southern subspecies, or where they both occur, which has a brief mention in this article. Opinions on what editors are like or what they are not are not as important as the content from relevant sources, so forget that, stuff like that can be complicated for the very guys who say that others are such and such, if anyone wants to say that to someone, then they will have to face that person, and it can be the case that after making the accusation, the accuser will try to avoid the accused if the latter faces him, which is no good, I have seen that happen a number of times, accusing someone privately or publicly, then avoiding that person, so I have to keep a stringent watch over what happens here and there, if that sort of behaviour persists, then it risks damaging Wikipedia's image, people outside Wikipedia are watching what happens here (and that is particularly true for ''[[Democratic Unionist Party]]'', when it was in an editing crisis after the party became important in the [[2017 United Kingdom general election]], people were making fun of it outside Wikipedia), so please don't focus on statements by such secretive users who are not willing to face others who face up to them if they have done something wrong, but focus on the content from relevant sources, such as that the group that revised subspecies said that the two subspecies overlap, which complicates the issue of subspecies because subspecies are supposed to be phylogeographically distinct forms of subspecies, as in that they are both genetically distinct and are separated, but whereas that is the case for [[tiger]]s (being divided into the [[Mainland Asian tiger|mainland]] and [[Sunda Island tiger|Sunda]] subspecies, which are geographically separated by [[Strait of Malacca]] between the [[Malayan Peninsula]] and [[Sumatra]]), that is not the case for lions, which not only overlap in [[Ethiopia]] or the [[Horn of Africa]], in northern parts of [[East Africa]], but also co-occur in the northeastern part of the [[Democratic Republic of the Congo]], from where ''[https://archive.org/stream/bulletinamerican47ameruoft#page/223/mode/2up azandicus]'' was described, in [[Central Africa]]. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 09:34, 2 December 2018 (UTC); edited 10:19, 2 December 2018 (UTC) |
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::: Is this one of those dog-whistles and/or free speech litmus tests rolled into one? Not cute anymore, cousin, a cry for help make that makes me feel sad for all those boys, lost and betrayed. My last sentence ought to have ended in a question mark, I would prefer you respond that with a simple statement of your preferred target. [[User talk:Cygnis insignis|cygnis insignis]] 12:16, 2 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:::: Is this about guys who get caught talking negatively about others before they realise that and expose them, or about content? [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 15:19, 2 December 2018 (UTC) |
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::::: No, the preferred target for the redirect [[Ethiopian lion]]. Where should that go? [[User talk:Cygnis insignis|cygnis insignis]] 15:37, 2 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::: I have an idea, since the subspecies are recognized as overlapping in Ethiopia or the Horn of Africa by both [https://www.nature.com/articles/srep30807/figures/2 Bertola et al.] and the [https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/handle/10088/32616/A_revised_Felidae_Taxonomy_CatNews.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y Cat Specialist Group]. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 18:38, 6 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::{{u|Leo1pard}}, did you mean 'I am not sure'? Where you said "I have an idea", was that mistyped? [[User talk:Cygnis insignis|cygnis insignis]] 18:08, 7 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::: No, I have an idea. Unlike the 2 newly recognized subspecies of tigers, [[Mainland Asian tiger|''P. t. tigris'']] in Mainland [[Asia]] and [[Sunda Island tiger|''P. t. sondaica'']] in the [[Sunda Islands]], which are geographically separated by the [[Strait of Malacca]] between the [[Malayan Peninsula]] and the Sunda island of [[Sumatra]], the northern (''P. l. leo'') and southern (''P. l. melanochaita'') subspecies of the lion are recognized as overlapping by both Bertola et al. and the Cat Specialist Group, so I have an idea about what to do. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 04:28, 8 December 2018 (UTC); edited 04:30, 8 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::{{u|Leo1pard}}, that would be interesting within its context, but would you mind if we returned to the question I posed at 06:17, 2 December 2018 (UTC), at the top of this section? [[User talk:Cygnis insignis|cygnis insignis]] 15:09, 8 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::: What I am thinking is that Ethiopian lion can be redirected to ''[[Panthera leo melanochaita]]'', since this was used for lions in [[East Africa]], but at the same time, ''[[Panthera leo leo]]'' should have a note on these lions, because Ethiopian lions are one of those populations that are shown to be both northern and southern. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 01:26, 9 December 2018 (UTC) |
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For a lioness, this is my [[c:File:Lioness_at_Working_with_Wildlife_South_Africa.jpg|proposed photo]] and the most impressive female I’ve ever seen. Bias aside, I really think she is a perfect example and an improvement over the current lioness image. Hopefully my contribution can help! [[User:AfricanConservation|AfricanConservation]] ([[User talk:AfricanConservation|talk]]) 15:36, 28 January 2024 (UTC) |
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== Contradiction == |
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*'''Oppose''' because the descriptions of both images contain a link to an organisation with which you are apparently affiliated. As User:331dot already explained to you on your talk page : this kind of advertising constitutes a conflict of interest. Remove this link, and I may change my mind. – [[User:BhagyaMani|BhagyaMani]] ([[User talk:BhagyaMani|talk]]) 02:18, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
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*:Apologies, these photos were uploaded before my talk with User:331dot and clarified. Link removed from both images. [[User:AfricanConservation|AfricanConservation]] ([[User talk:AfricanConservation|talk]]) 04:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 3 March 2024 == |
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The evolution sections currently states that ''Panthera spelaea'' derived about 300,000 years ago. Then, in the extinct species section it states that ''P. atrox'' derived from ''P. spelaea'' 340,000 years ago. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 21:53, 21 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:good catch - first one is plainly wrong. removed. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 22:23, 21 December 2018 (UTC) |
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::{{u|Casliber}}, on second thought it may be that early European lions were ''P. l. fossilis'' not ''Panthera spelaea''. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 23:46, 21 December 2018 (UTC) |
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::: Assuming that ''fossilis'' is a subspecies of ''Panthera leo'', that's right, the ''fossilis'' cave lion is the more primitive Eurasian cave lion, and ''spelaea'' is the newer version. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 08:14, 22 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:::: I think there is some fall-out from elevating ''spelaea'' and ''atrox'' to species. Beforehand ''fossilis'', ''spelaea'', ''atrox'' were all subspecies of one lion species. When ''spelaea'' and ''atrox'' got elevated to species, ''fossilis'' got left behind. If ''fossilis'' is the same linaeage as ''spelaea'', then it shouldn't be left in ''P. leo''. When considering references on how ''fossilis'' is named, it is important to consider when they were written and how they handles ''spelaea'' status. ''P. leo fossilis'' is how it was called when ''spelaea'' was also considered a subspecies. So ''fossilis'' should either be elevated to species or be considered a subspecies of ''spelaea''. The problem is finding some recent literature on ''fossilis'' that can be used as a reference. <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> [[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]] |[[User talk:Jts1882| talk]] </span> 08:39, 22 December 2018 (UTC) |
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::::: Yes, ''fossilis'' shouldn't have been left alone if ''spelaea'' at least was going to be treated separately from ''Panthera leo''. This should have been considered before the mass renaming of articles of prehistoric felids into scientific names, which can be disputed. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 09:12, 22 December 2018 (UTC) |
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::::: Basically agree with Jts1882's comments, but we cannot elevate ''fossilis'' to specific level without a reliable source. I'm not aware of any at present. -- [[User:BhagyaMani|BhagyaMani]] ([[User talk:BhagyaMani|talk]]) 10:02, 22 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::: You may find [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cats#Disputable scientific names|this]] useful. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 10:09, 22 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::: [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1749-4877.12082 Sotnikova & Foronova (2014)] ([https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Irina_Foronova/publication/259545849_First_Asian_record_of_Panthera_Leo_fossilis_Mammalia_Carnivora_Felidae_in_the_Early_Pleistocene_of_Western_Siberia_Russia/links/5a01832fa6fdcc232e2b7665/First-Asian-record-of-Panthera-Leo-fossilis-Mammalia-Carnivora-Felidae-in-the-Early-Pleistocene-of-Western-Siberia-Russia.pdf researchgate]) use ''Panthern'' (''Leo'') ''fossilis'' and includes a formal systematic palaeontology for a new ''fossilis'' finding. I think this can be used to support species status. A quick literature search confirms what I suggested above that ''P. leo fossilis'' is only used in conjunction with ''spelaea'' as a subspecies. More recent work uses ''P. spelaea fossilis'' or ''P. fossilis''. <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> [[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]] |[[User talk:Jts1882| talk]] </span> 10:25, 22 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::Hmm, usually the combination of 3 nomes with the middle one in () indicates insecurity of authors in regards to the taxon's specific or subspecific status. So we should use exactly this : ''Panthera (leo) fossilis''. -- [[User:BhagyaMani|BhagyaMani]] ([[User talk:BhagyaMani|talk]]) 10:39, 22 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::: That is the conventional notation for a subgenus, not a sign of insecurity. That is why it is uppercase. The authors group the four (or five if you include ''youngii'') lions into a subgenus ''Leo''. It is essentially an alternative to keeping them all as subspecies within one species. I don't suggest we use the subgenus as the subgenus ''Leo'' is also occasionally used to group lions with leopard and jaguars and is only really useful for large genera, e.g. ''Mus'' or ''Pteropus''. <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> [[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]] |[[User talk:Jts1882| talk]] </span> 11:25, 22 December 2018 (UTC) |
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{{edit semi-protected|Lion|answered=yes}} |
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== Description as used by a number of sources == |
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In cultural significance -> western world the third sentence starts with: "Tfhe lion is featured in several of Aesop's fables...". There's a typo on the article, so "Tfhe" should be changed to "The". Thanks! [[User:Bullerr|Bullerr]] ([[User talk:Bullerr|talk]]) 16:01, 3 March 2024 (UTC) |
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Aside from the issue of certain lions in [[Central Africa]], particularly [[Democratic Republic of the Congo|Congo-Kinshasa]], being shown by genetic analyses, including that of [https://www.nature.com/articles/srep30807?WT.feed_name=subjects_evolution Bertola et al.], to belong to the "[[Panthera leo melanochaita|southern subspecies or group (''P. l. melanochaita'')]], the use of 'northern' and 'southern' to describe the subspecies has extended to beyond the sources used in the articles, which made use of Bertola's results, like [https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/news/2015/03/the-african-lion-consists-of-two-subspecies this]. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 04:44, 29 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> Thank you! --[[User:TheImaCow|TheImaCow]] ([[User talk:TheImaCow#top|talk]]) 21:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:Err, she doesn't call them "northern lion" and "southern lion" but merely northern group and southern group. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 05:44, 29 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:: Not just "Northern group" and "Southern group", but also 'subspecies'. "Northern lion" and "Southern lion" were used by others. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 15:55, 29 December 2018 (UTC) |
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::: So what is your point? The paper still does not call them northern and southern lion yet does it? [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 20:58, 29 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:::: I meant that 'northern' and 'southern' were used to describe the subspecies, at least as descriptions. Others used "northern lion" and "southern lion", but people like Bertola et al. used "northern subspecies", "southern subspecies", "northern group" and "southern group" to describe the subspecies or genetic groups. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 13:11, 30 December 2018 (UTC) |
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== |
== Bite force == |
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As has been mentioned elsewhere, treating the [[Panthera spelaea|Upper Pleistocene Eurasian cave lion (''Panthera leo spelaea'' or ''P. spelaea'')]] as a different [[species]] to ''P. leo'' must come with doing something similar for the [[Panthera leo fossilis|Early Middle Pleistocene Eurasian cave lion (''P. l. fossilis'', ''P. fossilis'' or ''P. spelaea fossilis'')]], since the latter is believed to be an ancestor to the former. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 15:47, 25 January 2019 (UTC); edited 15:48, 25 January 2019 (UTC) |
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Hello to all of you. I added information on the biteforce of ''Panthera leo'' because other ''Pantheras'' have this information. I put it up here to let the three major page contributors—BhagyaMani, LittleJerry, and Casliber—know. As I can personally attest to, readers find this kind of information to be really helpful, so I advise leaving the edit rather than rolling it back. Having been a Wikipedia reader since 2018, I was dismayed to see no mention of bite force on any of my favorite articles. I hope I was able to serve the readers here. [[User:Wolverine XI|<span style="color:#000080;">'''''Wolverine'''''</span> <span style="color:#8A307F;">'''''XI'''''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Wolverine XI|<span style="color:#2C5F2D;">talk to me</span>]])</sup> 17:32, 6 April 2024 (UTC) |
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==king and the lord of the Beast== |
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I try to find the sources where lions are called king or lord. The earliest sources I found so far is The Fables of Æsop. |
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*KING: 1921, translation by T. James and G.F. Townsend. The Kingdom of the Lion: "The beasts of the field and forest had a Lion as their king."([[wikisource:An argosy of fables/Æsop]]) |
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*LORD OF THE BEASTS: 1922, translation by Joseph Jacobs. The Lion, the Fox, and the Beasts: "a Calf came up to receive the last wishes of the Lord of the Beasts."([[wikisource:The_Fables_of_Æsop_(Jacobs)/The_Lion,_the_Fox,_and_the_Beasts]]) |
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--[[User:Mingwangx|mingwangx]] ([[User talk:Mingwangx|talk]]) 15:07, 23 March 2019 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 03:02, 14 May 2024
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This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
"simulating sex" is homophobic phrasing
I.e. from "Males will also head-rub and roll around with each other before simulating sex together." under "Behaviour and ecology" then "Reproduction and life cycle". They have sex. 31.20.106.40 (talk) 10:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
=== No it's not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.82.219 (talk) 09:15, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2023
Mountain Lions, Cougars, and Puma are classified as Lions. Fix it.
X == Asia & Africa are native to lions Y == + America (that is all)
Having ignorant people remove edits without looking into knowledge learned before them, is pathetic.
Such a simple fix I thought most knew. 172.56.82.219 (talk) 09:13, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
Not done: No. They are a separate species from proper lions. Meters (talk) 09:28, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
Featured Images
I’d like to suggest a change to the featured images, or in the very least to the lioness image. I’m a little biased, of course, as the images are my own. The current male is a stunning specimen, so I won’t be too disappointed if the consensus is to keep it. Lions in sanctuaries are always just so majestic! This is a photo the biggest male I’ve seen, and my proposed male image.
For a lioness, this is my proposed photo and the most impressive female I’ve ever seen. Bias aside, I really think she is a perfect example and an improvement over the current lioness image. Hopefully my contribution can help! AfricanConservation (talk) 15:36, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose because the descriptions of both images contain a link to an organisation with which you are apparently affiliated. As User:331dot already explained to you on your talk page : this kind of advertising constitutes a conflict of interest. Remove this link, and I may change my mind. – BhagyaMani (talk) 02:18, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Apologies, these photos were uploaded before my talk with User:331dot and clarified. Link removed from both images. AfricanConservation (talk) 04:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 3 March 2024
In cultural significance -> western world the third sentence starts with: "Tfhe lion is featured in several of Aesop's fables...". There's a typo on the article, so "Tfhe" should be changed to "The". Thanks! Bullerr (talk) 16:01, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
Bite force
Hello to all of you. I added information on the biteforce of Panthera leo because other Pantheras have this information. I put it up here to let the three major page contributors—BhagyaMani, LittleJerry, and Casliber—know. As I can personally attest to, readers find this kind of information to be really helpful, so I advise leaving the edit rather than rolling it back. Having been a Wikipedia reader since 2018, I was dismayed to see no mention of bite force on any of my favorite articles. I hope I was able to serve the readers here. Wolverine XI (talk to me) 17:32, 6 April 2024 (UTC)