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Anyone have details on his military career? -FZ 17:03, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

http://www.cabinet.gov.sg/pmlee.htm has a little bit: "He studied at the University of Cambridge on a President's Scholarship and a Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) Scholarship. He graduated in 1974 with First Class Honours in Mathematics and a Diploma in Computer Science (with distinction). ... In 1979, he attended the Mid-Career Programme at the Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University. ... He joined the Singapore Armed Forces in 1971. In 1984, he left the SAF as a Brigadier-General to enter politics." -- PFHLai 19:27, 2004 Aug 14 (UTC)

Is he a real smart guy?

Well he DID graduate from Harvard and Cambridge. Not only that but he's a brigadier-general and had several years of experience in the cabinet.

I have always wondered how Mr. Lee became a Brigadier-General of the SAF despite his poor health. Is it because of his Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) Scholarship? Or was his health good during his service in the SAF? Does anyone have information about this? --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 19:56, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Are you refering to the cancer? That was diagnosed in 1992, after he retired from active service in the military. --Vsion 21:25, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed instances of the slapping incident - an unverified rumor based purely on the book Governance in Singapore. Mandel 20:24, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

Oppose. The slapping incident rumor is persistent enough to have been mentioned in Parliament, and Wikipedia should present both sides of the story. I've edited the article to fit. Jpatokal 03:06, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. It reads better now. At the very least it reads like an encyclopedia rather than a gossip column. But I think it's better to state the source of the rumor, ie. from the book Governance in Singapore. Mandel 09:50, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

Never knew this news before... but sounds rather like gossip to me. Can't be too sure given the heavy censorship on news items and details here in Singapore. T.prasanth.mathew, Nov 10, 2005

It DOES sound like gossip. Does anyone have any credible reference? --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 19:58, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So gossipy, that in fact, it was addressed in a speech on national television. Should be left in, but clarified of course. Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 21:38, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it's only gossip! It's just one of those political jokes Singaporeans like to put on their leaders. I just cannot believe how some people would ever perceive it to be true.

Then why didn't Goh Chok Tong outrightly deny it but claim that "he couldn't remember" the incident? I suppose his conscience pricks him to deny it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.186.9.1 (talk) 06:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Worthington's book aims at explaining two different but possibly related things: the systems and processes of government in Singapore using the "core executive" approach and the degree to which Lee Kuan Yew, Lee Hsien Loong's father continued to be in effective control, despite his retirement as prime minister, during the period under review (1991-1998). The latter subject is of course far more speculative, especially in the Singaporean context. Reading the book makes abundantly clear that the quality of evidence for the former subject, especially given a highly qualified scope, is adequate. However, the latter subject, especially when read in isolation from the remainder of the book, relies heavily on unnamed sources and suggests different power relations than appear to have existed judging by the outcome of previous PM Goh's succession. He offers little validation for his observation that "competition for solutions to this issue (i.e. the difficulty of reforming Singapore politically and socially; ed.) revolve (sic) around five main factions that I have been able to identify". However, a book such as this could not have been written without a large number of interviews with members of the "core executive" who would certainly have sought clearance from their supervisors, so not only the incident itself, but also tha fact of its inclusion in what was clearly the most ambitious scholarly attempt by a foreigner to look into Singapore's system of governance and, more importantly, available from leading bookshops in Singapore continue to give food for thought. However, its is unlikely that more about this incident will transpire and all in all, there are more important and verifiable details about LHL worthy of inclusion, for instance a well-designed and -executed financial reform project. Hence it should go. [Sandgroper}---

I agree with most of the above. However, I heard about the incident long before Worthington's book was published. You can call it gossip, but a section of the population believe it and some have great respect for Dhanabalan and were disappointed that he left the Cabinet. What's the effect? Nobody knows until the next election is over. But Goh felt that it was important enough for him to try to dismiss the incident before Lee took over the rein. If you read closely at Goh's speech, he did not deny it categorically; instead he said he (Goh himself), Dhanabalan, and others, did not recall the incident. In other words, he was sending a strong message (especially to Dhanabalan's sympathizers): let bygones be bygones. --Vsion 06:43, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

To argue that this is not gossip because "a section of the population believe it" is a convenient way of passing groundless gossip as real incidence with unverifiable evidence. Till date, no known reliable source is known to substantiate that "section of the population." To say that Goh is trying to send a strong message of letting bygones be bygones is at best a speculative exercise. One could also easily argue that Goh dismissed the incident in that casual manner is because that is the most appropriate tone to deal with what he believes is a common local political joke, not something worthy to categorically deny it. That he would even raise the issue is related to the way Singapore leaders understand how even unfounded gossip can shape the mind of uncritical section of population, which might subsequently have negative impact for LHL's leadership. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.77.92.103 (talk • contribs)

Well, if the PAP has abandoned its decades-old practice (and in fact, a standing party rule) of promptly and categorically denying rumours of wrongdoings and sueing for defamation, then this is the first time I hear about it. Reiterating a local joke about your successor in a national day rally? In a casual manner? C'mon! That was probably the most awkward moment for Goh Chok Tong that I've seen in his 14 years of prime minister; and the irony of it (and to his credit): it works! --Vsion 01:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot believe the article does not cover this, his wife Ho Ching or any of the other nepotism charges. I've restored them from a 2009 version, with a sprinkling of references; if you have any BLP concerns, raise 'em here. Jpatokal (talk) 10:46, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why has this persistently found its way back into this article? I've never heard of this alleged nickname, and Google throws up no results either. I've not known anyone who does, either. So what is this, a esoteric in-joke or what? What one personally thinks does not make it a perceived nickname. Mandel 10:05, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

Removed until the Rt. Hon. 210.187.136.251 explains himself. Jpatokal 12:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This article is at the middle range now, maybe we should improve it by nominating it for Singapore Collaboration of the Fortnight or any other improvement drives. Meanwhile, do expand on the article. His contributions are more than that. --Terence Ong 06:40, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's a well-known fact that Lee's eldest son is autistic and an albino, and the possible suicide of his wife has been mentioned by the BBC, so I stuck these back in there with a reference. Jpatokal 02:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

His son's medical condition has nothing to do with this article. As I understand, his son is living a fairly normal life. And what exactly does the BBC article said about his wife death? The added statement is misrepresenting the BBC article, and is a one-sided account based on rumour. --Vsion 04:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The BBC article clearly says that his first wife is said to have committed suicide.

To be more precise, it says: "His first wife is said to have committed suicide." Coming three weeks after giving birth, if it was suicide, the logical reason would be depression caused by having a disabled child. Jpatokal 10:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Albinism is caused by recessive genes. So for it to manifest, they must be present both in the mother and father, is it right? Any geneticist care to comment? Refer to: Albinism

The section on Sino-Sing ties say that "relations improved" but what about Lee's august 2004 visit to Taiwan, and his support of Japan's permanent seat on the UNSC? Those were huge problems for the bilateral relationship??? was this written by his press officer? Cheers, K.

Why does the link to Wong Ming Yan redirect to the page on Lee Hsien Loong? They're hardly the same person. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tsjeytanje (talk • contribs) 08:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Wow. His first wife died of a heart attack when she was four years old. I guess it was too much strain from the honeymoon when she was only three. Nice job on the sidebar folks. I guess this important article should remain locked so that we can see how stupid it is as an example of Wikipedia amateurism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.175.206 (talk) 01:32, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi there, do you have a better way in mind of putting that in perspective for the readers out there? Thanks and best. --Dave ^{♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®} 01:52, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

IP who posted that question mistakenly assumed tha the year shown was the in "birth-death" format when it is actually in "marriage commence-marriage end". Thought it was fairly obvious, unless he thought Ho Ching was underaged when she married/game birth, if he used the same assumption on the date beside the 2nd wife's name which is JUST BELOW the entry in the sidebar he found issues with. Wold suggest he pay attention to how information is beinpresented here before shooting his own foot and reveal further hints of "Wikipedia Amatuerism".

If this is the type of entries that are just waiting to be introduced into e main article, I would rather it stay locked. Zhanzhao (talk) 02:10, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mention his interviews in Inside Job (film) 99.181.146.221 (talk) 04:43, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• IMO, there's no real need for that, reason being that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia (← click on the link to find out more and on how else you can help us to improve). Also, you might want to read up on WP:Biographies of living persons. Best. --Dave ^{♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®} 10:06, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The most notable citizenship rule change generally attributed to Remaking Singapore & Lee is that children born to Singaporean women are now Sg citizens. I couldn't find any changes specific to spouses, male or otherwise, so I've removed that bit. Jpatokal (talk) 11:29, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

i found them sort of interesting, i don't now why they're being removed cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.114.92.78 (talk) 19:49, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, reversions like this require some justification. What is wrong with the content and references? The PAP's split into GCT and LHL factions and the succession dispute are open knowledge. Jpatokal (talk) 11:37, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jatopkal, the anon IP is likely to be La goutte de pluie who is not only reinserting content on this article but on others which were previously edited by La goutte. She has been editing other articles with a University of Virginia IP address – [1] – both previously edited by La goutte de pluie. If you look at your reversion carefully, you have reinserted the "Bad Democrat" category, along with some assertions presented as facts rather than opinion of the authors. La goutte de pluie has similarly wrecked havoc on numerous Singapore related articles all over – by inserting quotations out of context, representing opinion as facts (using multiple quotations marks ["]) in articles. I have reverted your edits, and if you dispute the edit, please continue discussion on the talk page as this is a biography article. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 12:44, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I could care less who is editing, I care about the content. Here is the paragraph I am most interested in keeping, prithee kindly explain what's wrong with it: Jpatokal (talk) 22:22, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The transition was marked by internal factionalism within the PAP. Lee Hsien Loong had long term ambitions for the Prime Ministership, but many individuals within the Central Executive Committee resisted these ambitions because of Lee's perceived high-handedness and autonomy demonstrated in "personal relationships with other cabinet ministers" (Worthington). <ref name=rworthington>{{cite book|last=Worthington|first=Ross|title=Governance in Singapore|year=2002|publisher=Routledge|isbn=978-0700714742|url=http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/070071474X/?keywords=slapped&v=search-inside}}</ref> According to analysis by the Library of Congress in 1989, Lee's nearest rival for power was Goh Chok Tong, whose political allies within the party were a decade older than Lee and his allies. Lee was supported by bureaucrats in the Ministry of Defence and army colleagues in the Singapore Armed Forces while Goh Chok Tong had more influence and was more respected in the Singapore Civil Service, the Cabinet and the government-linked corporations. <ref name=locsuccession>{{cite web|last=LePoer|first=Barbara|title=Key political issues - Succession|url=http://countrystudies.us/singapore/53.htm|work=Countrystudies|publisher=[[Library of Congress]]}}</ref>

Also, why was mention of the alleged slapping incident removed once again? Jpatokal (talk) 22:22, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are probably familiar with WP:BLP: "We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source, which is usually done with an inline citation. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing." Plain googling will reveal that Ross Worthington is not a reliable source—and at any rate the onus is on the includer to show proof of reliability. At the very least, corroboration is preferred. The LOC bit is fine as presented (above). Chensiyuan (talk) 01:37, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Ross Worthington appears to be employed at the World Bank's Asia Research Centre, where he specializes in public sector governance, and the book in question was published by a reputable publisher. What am I missing?

Also, the slapping "story" (in his words) is prominent enough to have been mentioned (and denied) by GCT in a public National Day speech on 17 August 2005. Jpatokal (talk) 02:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the sort of claims that Worthington makes, they need to be supported by someone authoritative. He is by no means authoritative. At any rate, I have suggested an alternative: find corroborative sources, so that the claims unequivocally meet the requirements of WP:BLP. As for the slapping story, acknowledgement by GCT doesn't mean anything in and of itself. For some time, Obama had to constantly reject relentless claims that he's Muslim, non-American, homosexual and so on, but you don't see that mentioned in his FA here, even though those accusations were made by prominent people and he bothered to reject some of then. A BLP is not a catalogue of every notable incident; for something that borders on defamatory in the absence of compelling sources WP:BLP simply rejects it. Chensiyuan (talk) 03:20, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse my French, but you just pulled that out of your ass. BLP or WP:V say nothing about requiring "authoritative" sources, only reliable sources, and you have yet to provide a shred of evidence that he is not a reliable source -- again, as far as I can tell, the book in question meets all the requirements of being a reliable source.

Second, to correct my own words, GCT does not deny the incident, he merely claims not to remember it. This in itself is a rather remarkable claim, as remarked on here by Michael Backman (egads, another reliable source!). And here's the Sydney Morning Herald: [2].

Third, the sentence in question does not say anything about physical assault, it merely mentions "Lee's perceived high-handedness and autonomy" and conflicts with others, specifically Dhanabalan, as stated here.

Last and least, the main Obama article does (obliquely) address claims that he is not a citizen and that he is a Muslim, and there are lengthy articles devoted to each: Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories. But Obama is the subject of dozens of articles, while LHL has only one. Jpatokal (talk) 12:25, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Chensiyuan, for your insightful comments on WP:BLP policy. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 10:17, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. JP has raised nothing new and has read WP:BLP and WP:V selectively, so there's nothing to rebut. A simple example suffices to prove the point: not only is it a poor play on semantics, I didn't pull "authoritative" out of nowhere -- see Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. Chensiyuan (talk) 14:37, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I raised four separate points. To address the single one you deigned to address, the exact quotation from that guideline (not policy) is "authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject". What grounds do you have for claiming that that Dr. Worthington, an expert in public sector governance (do we agree on this?), is out of his depth when covering "Governance in Singapore"? And are you also claiming that Backman, Sydney Morning Herald and Rodan are not RS? Jpatokal (talk) 22:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are we actually debating on the suitability of including <unknown number>-handed account rumours/alleged events and OR/opinion pieces about same rumour/alleged event? At least the Obama conspiracy theories were clearly labeled as conspiracy theories, and had so much coverage that there was enough concrete content as its own article.... Zhanzhao (talk) 15:16, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jpatokal, the answer is clear and simple: exceptional claims require exceptional sources and this is policy. The allegation of "internal factionalism" and "slapping incident" are exceptional claims which have not been covered by multiple mainstream sources. To answer the second issue which you raised, GCT also added something on the lines of Singaporeans having a creative imagination, to dispel the allegation as a rumour. In the end, this only exists as speculation and hence does not have any place on a BLP. Thirdly, the internal disputes and conflicts are again based on mere speculation and have not been reported by mainstream sources. Both George W. Bush and Barack Obama have been described by some commentators as "arrogant", yet the same description has not found its way into their biographies. This is because we hold BLPs to a higher standard. Please remember that we are writing an encyclopedia, and not a tabloid. And I don't think we really need to respond to your fourth point. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 21:57, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I recently inserted a recent, higher resolution image to the infobox, but User:Dave1185 appears to be so opposed to it that I have been reverted almost immediately upon adding it in favor of a lower resolution, slightly out of date photo. Apparently we are not supposed to "keep updating unless a major change occurs" now? Thoughts? – Connormah (talk) 23:58, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Just my 2 cents... IMO, there's no need to keep updating the profile photo (though it maybe slightly out of date) unless indeed a notable change has occured, for example following an operation or major illness. Besides, though the newer image is of higher resolution than the older image, the older image has got better image contrast and depth, which should make it a better infobox image choice. Thoughts? --Dave ^{♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®} 00:15, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can play around with contrast or send it to WP:GL if we need. Not sure though, the old image slightly gives me an outdated impression, I thought it was way older than it actually is... – Connormah (talk) 00:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Oh my... the length you'd go to get that image you've uploaded to be use... make it so, if the colour contrast isn't anywhere near the older image, let's just focus on building the article page itself instead. Shall we? --Dave ^{♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®} 09:01, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Dave. I have reverted to the newer version. Please feel free to change if you can find a newer, higher resolution image. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 12:39, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• OMG... it's headless Nick~! Cheers and best~! --Dave ^{♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®} 12:43, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

May be just me, but I thought the previous photo was more "official" looking and neutral expressionwise. Unless the guy is often associated with this particular facial expression. (ie Jack Nicholson's article would do just fine with one of his infamouse crazy-looking expressions). Just my 2 cents though. Zhanzhao (talk) 12:54, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the neutral expression bit, but the previous image was too low resolution to be used as the main image for the subject. I am open to reverting back to the previous image, but let us get some more commentary before we do that. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 15:22, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Every commentary on the pay cut I've seen to date -- and I've sourced WSJ, NYT and AFP for starters -- has ascribed it to the PAP trying to placate the public after the last elections. If this half a sentence is "undue weight", then please provide the PAP's version as a counterpoint if you can. I just trawled through a whole slew of their speeches in Parliament and could not for the life of me find any reasoning for why they are actually cutting salaries, only a lot of justification for why they need to stay high. Jpatokal (talk) 10:33, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That may be relevant on an article on the Singapore cabinet. I am listing the links that you have cited in the article:

• Salaries Cut, Singapore Leaders Are Still Well-Paid

This source uses the word "public discontent" not anger.

• Singapore Slashes Officials’ Salaries

Alex Au refers to "public anger" in this report, not the journalist. This is Alex Au's opinion.

• Singapore PM says Obama earns less but has perks

Only this article makes a reference to "public anger" as a matter of fact.

It is inappropriate to represent opinions as facts, it is also wrong to place WP:UNDUE emphasis on an event which does not specifically target the subject of the article (the discontent is against ministerial pay, not Lee Hsien Loong alone). — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 10:46, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The words "in a move widely interpreted" make it perfectly clear that this is a (widely held) opinion, so there is no misrepresentation. It is directly relevant to Lee, since the specific reaction to general anger was to cut his salary, and every one of the sources refers to Lee specifically. And the sentence has to be there to provide the context necessary to the reader: why are they cutting his salary? Jpatokal (talk) 23:08, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is not relevant in the long scheme of things, which is what Wikipedia is all about. If you are so interested in writing news reports, why don't you start to blog about it? First of all, it is very impertinent to have a separate sections on "Salary" and "Controversies" on a biography. If you want to have a clear idea about how biographies are written take a look at Bill Clinton, Hillary Rodham Clinton, George W. Bush and Richard Nixon, all arguably controversial and widely-known figures, and yet, their biographies appear as they should. Your new insertions about "public anger" and "in a move widely interpreted" constitute hand-waving, place an undue weight on the incident and fail WP:ORIGINALSYN. The issue again is "ministerial pay cuts" in the wider context, not Lee Hsien Loong's salary. No one can stop you if you want to make a controversy out of everything. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 05:45, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the long run, we're all dead and the sun will go supernova, destroying Wikipedia. But LHL's article has a Salary section for the very simple reason that he's the highest-paid politician in the world, and his salary became a major election issue last year.

And as for "original synthesis", are you serious?!? Here's the cited WSJ article:

Singapore lawmakers voted on Wednesday to slash political leaders' salaries, as the ruling People's Action Party acts to temper public discontent over ministerial wages that even after the cuts rank among the world's highest. ... The reductions, which also affect the president and all lawmakers, were proposed this month by a salary-review committee established last May, after a general election that the PAP won by a historically narrow margin. The salary issue, compounded by a widening gap between rich and poor, is seen as undercutting support for the party that has long held power in the tightly controlled island nation.

And here's the sentence in Wikipedia:

In January 2012, in a move widely interpreted as a response to public anger over income inequality in the wake of the 2011 general elections, Parliament set out a new pay structure for politicians.

So exactly what part of that is "original synthesis" not covered by the three sources? Jpatokal (talk) 06:31, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's very convenient, have an entire section devoted to "salary" because the politician is highest-paid. Then why have a policy on WP:BLP in the first place? I will wait for other users to respond to this.

The phrase "widely interpreted as a response to public anger over income equality" is a synthesis of the sources and makes an evaluative claim in the article and constitutes original research. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 06:51, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Would you prefer "widely interpreted as an act to temper public discontent over ministerial wages"? We can quote it directly from the WSJ if you like. Jpatokal (talk) 11:27, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is already an article on this issue 2012 Singaporean ministerial paycuts. This content should be in that article instead. Considering the ministerial pay cut issue affects each and every single minister, are we then to include this whole section in the articles of each and every minister? Yes, Lee may be the highest paid politician in the world, but creating a whole section to it is UNDUE. My suggestion - Can we just add a short line mention of his status as the highest paid minister at the very end of the lead and remove the whole dedicated salary section instead? Zhanzhao (talk) 11:34, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]