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Parcells, who was involved in the family autopsy has some credentials issues. This has been covered by reliable sources, but appears to be flying mostly under the radar. We may need to put a statement or two in to better qualify his credentials and how credible the statements by him actually are.

• (May 5, 2013) (IE, known issues from before the Michael Brown shooting) http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/missouri-coroners-question-practices-of-forensics-company-operator/article_0662e5b1-dcfa-578f-9487-8ab6a176ea4d.html
  • Raises multiple alleged instances of Parcells performing autopsies without a Dr present, and signing the Drs names to the reports.
• (Aug 19) http://fox4kc.com/2014/08/19/shawn-parcells-credentials-role-in-michael-brown-autopsy-questioned-by-doctors/
  • "Parcells admits he has no certification as a pathology assistant, but says his qualification comes from experience."
  • "Parcells says his training began in 1997 when he interned with Dr. Young, until he was hired in the mid-2000’s. Dr. Young responded with this statement: Shawn hung out at the Jackson County Medical Examiner’s office but was not trained by me.”…. “He has been representing himself in a way that is not appropriate by giving forensic pathology opinions when he is not qualified to do so.”
• http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article1337089.html
• http://www.kmbc.com/news/pathologist-assistant-in-michael-brown-case-responds-to-controversy/28234292
• https://news.yahoo.com/st-louis-medical-examiner-slams-brown-family-hire-172036981.html

In a number of RS, Parcells is given equal credit to Dr Baden, see the big NYT story of the 2nd autopsy with the diagram being credited to Parcells and Baden, and the video where Parcells is the one describing the diagram in particular the "top of head" shot. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=1 Also the "Arm shot could be consistent with shot from behind" is from Parcells. http://www.newsweek.com/what-we-learned-michael-browns-autopsy-265247

To complicate things, on the 15th, the Daryl Parks press conference after the video release has Parks saying that the 2nd autopsy is done. Per the NYT article linked above, Dr Baden arrived on the 17th (and that is the date signed on the autopsy diagram and report)

• http://fox2now.com/2014/08/15/live-updates-brown-family-addresses-the-media-from-ferguson-police-headquarters/
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85pgpVDlIqE
• Blog, not RS, but more background (in particular the 15th/17th discrepancy) http://pathologyblawg.com/pathology-news/pathology-law/forensic-pathology/shawn-parcells-makes-national-news-michael-brown-autopsy/

In the interest of full disclosure, I did initially come across this story on conservative treehouse a notoriously unreliable blog with very significant bias (and frankly blatant racism sometimes), however, I think there is sufficient coverage from the mainstream on this particular point. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the full disclosure (yawn). I think two vague sentences would be enough, with three or four high quality cites. "Multiple media outlets reported challenges to the qualifications, ethics, and professionalism of Shawn Parcells, who assisted in the autopsy. Parcells dismissed the criticism as unfounded rumors stemming from jealousy and politics." (second sentence sourced in the stltoday article linked above) ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 16:46, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Mandruss I don't understand the yawn. I think your draft is a good first attempt, but I think we should state that he doesn't have any license or formal training, and the place he claims he got the bulk of his training from explicitly repudiates him. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have RS that says it's inappropriate for someone assisting in an autopsy to lack a license and formal training? Something authoritative? ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 18:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

did you read that STL article? Hes was doing much more than assisting, and he just plain lied about some of his credentials

Gaijin42 (talk) 19:10, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so the guy looks pretty ugly. I think the questions are:

• To what extent did his opinions or analysis figure into the autopsy report? I see him describing things at a news conference, but does that necessarily mean it's his analysis he's describing? In any case, if anyone else put their signature on the report, doesn't that mean they concur with everything stated therein? After all, their reputations are at stake, too.
• To what extent does that autopsy report affect the grand jury outcome or any trial? We can't know that at this point.

This seems like shaky BLP territory, and it may be better to err on the side of caution. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 19:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The "to what degree part" is part of why I brought up the 15th/17th issue, where parks said the autopsy was done. As far as the grand jury ya, we just don't know (since that was private it might not have been presented to them at all).Frankly I think Parks and Baden were probably suckered by this guy. He showed up, offered his services for free, and claimed a bunch of impressive credentials, that nobody followed up on. If these credentials issues were discussed with the Jury I bet Brown's family is pretty pissed since it hurts their evidence and narrative for no reason. Certainly it would be brought up in a real trial to their determent. Also regarding the "how important was he to the autopsy" bit the pathologyblawg says that Parcells said that he took photographs early (15th) because the body was going to be embalmed before Baden got there, and that the autopsy was performed on an embalmed body. That really puts the entire second autopsy in question (and certainly explains why they wouldn't find any gunshot residue on the body)

BLP cuts both ways. We are using Parcell to back statements saying evidence supports Wilson shot Brown from behind. Thats what my reasoning was for bringing up the issue. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If you're right, it warrants a whole subsection (or multiple paragraphs added to the existing section), not just two or three sentences. But I wouldn't know how to write it within policy and guidelines. You and others write it, I'll copyedit it and clean up the refs. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 19:56, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is that we have good sourcing for all of the facts (and criticism of Parcell), but poorer sourcing for why those facts matter in the context of the case. PathologyBlawg is probably not going to cut it and an WP:SPS , unless we try to claim a WP:ABOUTSELF exception for Parcell's statements about the timeline. Ill try and put together something I think covers it while relying only on the real RS, while avoiding WP:SYNTH. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In an odd timing coincidence, Baden testified to the grand jury today. https://news.yahoo.com/forensics-expert-testify-ferguson-grand-jury-152849369.html Gaijin42 (talk) 20:09, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the above discussion, should the following item in the article be removed?

Shawn L. Parcells, who assisted Baden on the autopsy, said that a wound to the right arm was consistent with Brown either having his back to the officer, facing the officer with his hands above his head, or in a defensive position.^[149]

149. "Tear gas fired at Missouri protesters". Radio New Zealand News. August 18, 2014. Archived from the original on August 19, 2014. Retrieved August 22, 2014. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

Considering the above discussion, it looks like we should only present the opinions of Dr. Baden, rather the opinion of his assistant. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC) --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:43, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Bob K31416 It/His statements in general were widely reported by reliable secondaries so I think putting in questions about his qualifications may be a better route than removing him all together (especially since removal will raise questions to those not aware of this discussion about NPOV from people who wonder why a widely reported negative against Wilson bit is missing. But if we can find equivalent statements in Baden's voice, sure do a direct swap Gaijin42 (talk) 16:51, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In this case, it's a matter of simply keeping unreliable information out of the article. The item was reported 3 months ago on Aug 18 and I think the item is now mostly spread by Wikipedia. Here's an excerpt from Radio New Zealand News, which is the source used in our article.[1]

"Shawn Parcells, a forensic pathologist who assisted Dr Baden, said a wound to Mr Brown's right arm may have been sustained as he had his hands up, 'but we don't know'."

This was reported on the premise that Parcells was a forensic pathologist, which he isn't. --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:31, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Issues with 2nd autopsy

In addition to the embalming issue mentinoed above, we have an RS explicitly saying the body was washed after the first autopsy. http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/pathologist-for-michael-brown-family-to-testify-before-ferguson-grand/article_0893ca08-170f-579b-8e44-26edb2ba7f8f.html Gaijin42 (talk) 01:31, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And the chest "exit wound" has been reclassified by baden as an entrance wound. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:59, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

From the news article,

"skin from his thumb had been removed for microscopic analysis. Gray [a Brown family lawyer] said St. Louis County will give Baden access today [Nov 11] to that tissue."

I presume the skin was removed during the first autopsy before the body was washed. --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:05, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"A half-dozen eye-witnesses have said publicly that they saw Brown flee from the vehicle as Wilson open [sic] fire with the fatal shots landing as the teen stopped, turned to the officer and raised his arms in surrender." http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/thomas-jackson-clarifies-comments-about-darren-wilson Michael-Ridgway (talk) 21:23, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Are you pointing this out because you think this is referring to someone other than the witnesses we already discuss (in which case it would be important, but I disagree with that interpretation), or because you prefer this summary style to what we have currently (per some earlier discussions we have had)? If the latter, the NYTimes most recent summary is "Some witnesses later said that Mr. Brown appeared to be surrendering with his hands in the air as he was hit with the fatal gunshots. Others say that Mr. Brown was moving toward the officer when he was killed."[2] CBSs most recent summary is "Wilson claimed the teenager attacked him. Some witnesses have said Wilson and Brown struggled, either outside or inside the officer's vehicle. Others say they saw Brown with his hands over his head, getting on the ground." [3] Gaijin42 (talk) 01:54, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"The Post-Dispatch’s report included a call from police dispatch regarding a robbery at a nearby convenience store. Wilson had been on another call, and minutes later Wilson could be heard asking if his fellow officers needed help responding to the robbery report. Wilson was told that the suspects had left the convenience store. But from the calls, Wilson was given the description of a black male in a white T-shirt and red baseball cap. Shortly thereafter Wilson was on Canfield." http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/thomas-jackson-clarifies-comments-about-darren-wilson Michael-Ridgway (talk) 21:28, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of new info this weekend. These dispatch calls, the video at the station etc. Im quite surprised that this wasn't released/leaked earlier as it (imo) significantly reduces the strength of the "no knowledge of robbery, just Walking While Black" narrative that has been being pushed from the protesters/family.(which is not to say that it may not be true, just that it makes it not so much of a sure thing) Someone else has alerady update the shooting section with this info I believe. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:57, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The source of the claim that Wilson didn't know wasn't the protesters -- it was Chief Thomas Jackson. Would that Wikipedia editors and the reporters at the St. Louis Post Dispatch would keep this fact firmly in mind when they jump to point out that the dispatch tape contradicts the claims of the protesters/Wilson supporters. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 03:17, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am well aware that the Chief that said that. But we know have somewhat irrefutable proof that Wilson was A) aware of the robbery and description. B) available to/possibly actively looking for the suspects. As for if he considered Brown/Jonson suspects or not, why would he ask for a second car for Jaywalkers? Its not conclusive, but its plausible. Again personally i think this is a place where the Chief just didn't know what he was talking about. I guess we will see how the reliable sources/grand jury interpret it over the next few days. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:33, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If that's your view, then what of this statement found in the Shooting section at present: "reportedly after realizing that Brown matched the description of the suspect in the stealing call." Does that pass the common sense standard? Wouldn't it make much more sense to conclude that from the moment that Brown was first visible to Wilson on the street that "Wilson realized that Brown matched the description of the suspect in the stealing call"? And wouldn't our readers be better served if a reliable source were to be found upon which we could hang such reporting? Not that such a source can be found. Here is a contrary source that insists on reporting what Wilson's surrogates said long before this dispatch recording was made public, as though this is the definitive explanation:

 Sources have told the Post-Dispatch that Wilson has told authorities that before the radio call 
 he had stopped to tell Brown and his friend, Dorian Johnson, 22, to quit walking down the middle of the street. 
 They kept walking, and he then realized that Brown matched the description of the suspect in the stealing call. 
 http://www.stltoday.com/news/multimedia/special/darren-wilson-s-radio-calls-show-fatal-encounter-was-brief/html_79c17aed-0dbe-514d-ba32-bad908056790.html

But in a locally broadcast interview with the very same St. Louis Post Dispatch reporter who wrote the article from which I quote above, he says virtually the opposite, as can be seen in this video clip beginning at about 1:39. In his comment to Fox 2 News, he indicates that it was the Swisher Cigarillos that caused Brown to put two and two together -- not Brown matching the description of the suspects, i.e., not Brown's height and weight and enumeration of the clothing he was wearing.

http://fox2now.com/2014/11/15/michael-browns-parents-react-to-release-of-ferguson-police-calls/

I bring this all forward in the interest of improving the article should a reliable source make that possible for us at some point. Until then, it looks like we are stuck in, how did you say, "a place where the Chief just didn't know what he was talking about." Should a reliable source note the inconsistencies that this new evidence seems, to me at least, to make apparent, I believe that mention of the same should be made in the article. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 07:58, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

From the USA Today, Nov 15, 2014:

   MYTH: Wilson stopped Brown because he was a suspect in a robbery.
   FACT: Wilson did not know Brown was a suspect in a strong-arm robbery that happened moments before the shooting, 
   according to Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson. Wilson stopped Brown and his friend for walking in the middle of the street, Jackson said.
   http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/15/myths-and-facts-on-ferguson-shooting/19085451/

Michael-Ridgway (talk) 08:26, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On October 4, a small group disrupted a symphony concert for a few minutes, apparently in St. Louis, in support of Brown. Someone got it on their cellphone and the article includes the video. Is this worth an entry in Reactions:Third parties? ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 03:47, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I see it as relevant to the unrest article, but probably not this one. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:50, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In that case Reactions:Third parties needs trimming, and the question becomes where to draw the line. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 03:53, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My gut feel is specific notable voices ( NGOs, rights orgs, notable civil rights individuals) etc, with a high level summary of the collective public protests, but each individual action/event is probably too much detail for here (although a couple example items may be appropriate.). There have been many dozens of marches, meetings, hecklers, etc. To give even a one sentence coverage to each would swamp the article let a lone the section. This is of course just my own editorial judgement, others may draw the line elsewhere. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:59, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Going down the current list my rough cut would be Sharpton yes, pastors no, petition yes, fundraising probably not but maybe, mass vigils yes, wilson fundraising same as brown fund raising, Anonymous yes but trimmed, monks maybe/no, 150 no, cornel brooks yes, pew study yes, Clinton yes (but wrong section?) The general public I thin kshould just get a paragraph saying there have been protests and meetings for the duration basically, but not detailing any particular one as more notable than any of the others. Gaijin42 (talk) 04:05, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, awaiting more opinions. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 04:07, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest defining what is meant by reactions to the shooting of Michael Brown, so that it can be applied in an objective way. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:47, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well here's my take. Dictionary.com has two definitions for "react" that I think are relevant here. 1. to act in response to an agent or influence. 2. to respond to a stimulus in a particular manner. Both use the word "respond", and that should be the first test. If something happened that wouldn't have happened but for the shooting, it could be called a result but not necessarily a response. If I'm sitting on a tree branch and it breaks, my fall is not a response to the failure of the branch. My "OH FUCK!!" on the way down is. After passing that test, an item would be excluded if it belongs in the unrest article. And finally it must be significant enough to include. Objective is asking too much, if you mean a black-and-white, no-judgment-call-required kind of definition. The significance test in particular is a matter of editorial judgment. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 17:20, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, you might consider removing items in the Reactions section that are reactions to the unrest, and moving them to the unrest article. For example,

• August 12 – Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts and Representative Justin Amash of Michigan tweeted similar descriptions of Ferguson as a "war zone" in the aftermath of the police actions, with Amash calling the situation "frightening" on August 13 and Warren demanding answers on August 14.^[1]

BTW, I noticed that this item is already in the Ferguson unrest article,[4] so it would be just a matter of deleting it from this Shooting of Michael Brown article. --Bob K31416 (talk) 19:21, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think we all agree that there are probably items that shouldn't be there, it's just a matter of agreeing on the criteria, as you suggested. If we used my criteria, the above example would fail my test #2. As for the overlap between articles, here's what I had to say about that on September 3 on the unrest article's talk page. I got no response, as you can see. Beyond that, how about we save the overlap issue for another section, to avoid getting too far off topic in this one. I don't think it really needs to be linked to this question, since we can always recover anything we remove from the history. Or we could just copy the entire Reactions section to a user sandbox before we remove anything. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 19:57, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/shock-video-darren-wilson-violates-1st-amendment-ill-lock-ass-up-arrests-man-filming/ Notable in that Wilson is clearly understood to threaten that if the individual takes one more picture of him, "I'm locking your ass up." Also notable is the full inclusion of the police report where Wilson gives his version of events and admits to arresting the individual for "Failure to Comply," the same infraction for which a large number of Ferguson protesteres have been arrested in the the months since the shooting. The article states that this story is an exclusive. I guess that means we can't use it, right? Michael-Ridgway (talk) 08:42, 16 November 2014 (UTC) The Guardian picked it up: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/16/ferguson-video-shows-darren-wilson-arresting-man-for-recording-him Michael-Ridgway (talk) 09:06, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In case anyone missed it, a user Bdel555 added that about 13 hours after your comments. Some time after that, I removed it on NPOV grounds. If RS reported an incident two years ago when Brown shoved a girl, I would oppose inclusion of that for the same reason. I'm not 100% confident on this, which is why I encouraged the user to take it to talk. Btw, I don't see any reason why an exclusive from a reliable source would be prohibited, that fact wouldn't make it any less reliable. Btw #2, I note that the home page of thefreethoughtproject.com includes a convenient index to all their articles that have negative things to say about cops. "Police Throw 3-Year-Old in Jail Cell After Arresting Mother." Very impressive. I wouldn't want them and The Guardian to be my only sources for something like this. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 19:08, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it should stay out. The facts about that earlier arrest are unclear (What was the cause of the incident? Are we sure the "failure to comply" was about filming as opposed to a lawful order?), and in any event, I don't see the relevance to the Michael Brown shooting or the question of whether Wilson was justified in using lethal force. 216.64.189.242 (talk) 19:21, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How long a duration shall we report to the world? In spite of the Glide recording which puts the final shot at roughly 12:02:24, and in spite of our claim that the incident began at 12:01, we've been running with 3 minutes for quite some time now. The news media today was all over the 90 second claim. In spite of numerous changes made to the Shooting section this weekend, the "less-than-three minutes" statement remains. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 08:49, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is it reasonable to assume that the clocks involved are accurate enough to use them for such an analysis? If so, would it be WP:SYNTH to do so? My answers are I don't know and yes. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 09:04, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

However, if you have a quality source or two for 90 seconds, no analysis is necessary. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 09:10, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

 Done ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 10:50, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Many editors like to wikilink things like St. Louis Post-Dispatch in cites, wherever possible. These links are functional both from the citation tooltips and from within the References section. This is not currently part of the local standard in this article, but it could be. Does anyone have an opinion one way or the other? ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 08:53, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

   Pathologists say forensic science alone can't determine whether Wilson justifiably shot the teen. Judy Melinek, 
   a forensic pathologist based in California, says she was quoted out of context in a St. Louis Post-Dispatch story 
   that said she thought the St. Louis County medical examiner's autopsy of Brown supported Wilson's claim that Brown 
   was reaching for his gun. Melinek and others say crucial missing information including blood-spatter evidence, 
   the number and location of bullet casings, the height of the officer's weapon and other ballistic information 
   must be factored in to determine what happened.
   http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/15/myths-and-facts-on-ferguson-shooting/19085451/

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael-Ridgway (talk • contribs) 08:54, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We should certainly put something in qualifying Melinek's statements, but we need to be careful of how we summarize her "walking back". As far as I have read she has merely said that while the evidence she saw was consistent with Wilson's version, it could be consistent with other scenarios too (but I don't believe she said anywhere that it was consistent with any of the Brown version specifically, but I may be wrong), and that additional evidence would help narrow it down. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:39, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]