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m Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Killing of Michael Brown/Archive 31) (bot
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== MSNBC: A half-dozen witnesses report seeing Wilson fire on Brown as he fled. ==

"A half-dozen eye-witnesses have said publicly that they saw Brown flee from the vehicle as Wilson open [sic] fire with the fatal shots landing as the teen stopped, turned to the officer and raised his arms in surrender."
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/thomas-jackson-clarifies-comments-about-darren-wilson
[[User:Michael-Ridgway|Michael-Ridgway]] ([[User talk:Michael-Ridgway|talk]]) 21:23, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

:Are you pointing this out because you think this is referring to someone other than the witnesses we already discuss (in which case it would be important, but I disagree with that interpretation), or because you prefer this summary style to what we have currently (per some earlier discussions we have had)? If the latter, the NYTimes most recent summary is "Some witnesses later said that Mr. Brown appeared to be surrendering with his hands in the air as he was hit with the fatal gunshots. Others say that Mr. Brown was moving toward the officer when he was killed."[http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/11/09/us/10ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-grand-jury-darren-wilson.html#/#time354_10512] CBSs most recent summary is "Wilson claimed the teenager attacked him. Some witnesses have said Wilson and Brown struggled, either outside or inside the officer's vehicle. Others say they saw Brown with his hands over his head, getting on the ground." [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ferguson-police-radio-calls-surface-from-michael-brown-shooting/] [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 01:54, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

== MSNBC: from the calls, Wilson was given the description of a black male in a white T-shirt and red baseball cap ==

"The Post-Dispatch’s report included a call from police dispatch regarding a robbery at a nearby convenience store. Wilson had been on another call, and minutes later Wilson could be heard asking if his fellow officers needed help responding to the robbery report. Wilson was told that the suspects had left the convenience store. But from the calls, Wilson was given the description of a black male in a white T-shirt and red baseball cap. Shortly thereafter Wilson was on Canfield."
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/thomas-jackson-clarifies-comments-about-darren-wilson
[[User:Michael-Ridgway|Michael-Ridgway]] ([[User talk:Michael-Ridgway|talk]]) 21:28, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

:Lots of new info this weekend. These dispatch calls, the video at the station etc. Im quite surprised that this wasn't released/leaked earlier as it (imo) significantly reduces the strength of the "no knowledge of robbery, just [[Walking While Black]]" narrative that has been being pushed from the protesters/family.(which is not to say that it may not be true, just that it makes it not so much of a sure thing) Someone else has alerady update the shooting section with this info I believe. [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 01:57, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
::The source of the claim that Wilson didn't know wasn't the protesters -- it was Chief Thomas Jackson. Would that Wikipedia editors and the reporters at the St. Louis Post Dispatch would keep this fact firmly in mind when they jump to point out that the dispatch tape contradicts the claims of the protesters/Wilson supporters. [[User:Michael-Ridgway|Michael-Ridgway]] ([[User talk:Michael-Ridgway|talk]]) 03:17, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
:::Yes, I am well aware that the Chief that said that. But we know have somewhat irrefutable proof that Wilson was A) aware of the robbery and description. B) available to/possibly actively looking for the suspects. As for if he considered Brown/Jonson suspects or not, why would he ask for a second car for Jaywalkers? Its not conclusive, but its plausible. Again personally i think this is a place where the Chief just didn't know what he was talking about. I guess we will see how the reliable sources/grand jury interpret it over the next few days. [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 03:33, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
::::If that's your view, then what of this statement found in the Shooting section at present: "reportedly after realizing that Brown matched the description of the suspect in the stealing call." Does that pass the common sense standard? Wouldn't it make much more sense to conclude that from the moment that Brown was first visible to Wilson on the street that "Wilson realized that Brown matched the description of the suspect in the stealing call"? And wouldn't our readers be better served if a reliable source were to be found upon which we could hang such reporting? Not that such a source can be found. Here is a contrary source that insists on reporting what Wilson's surrogates said long before this dispatch recording was made public, as though this is the definitive explanation:

Sources have told the Post-Dispatch that Wilson has told authorities that before the radio call
he had stopped to tell Brown and his friend, Dorian Johnson, 22, to quit walking down the middle of the street.
They kept walking, and he then realized that Brown matched the description of the suspect in the stealing call.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/multimedia/special/darren-wilson-s-radio-calls-show-fatal-encounter-was-brief/html_79c17aed-0dbe-514d-ba32-bad908056790.html

:::::But in a locally broadcast interview with the very same St. Louis Post Dispatch reporter who wrote the article from which I quote above, he says virtually the opposite, as can be seen in this video clip beginning at about 1:39. In his comment to Fox 2 News, he indicates that it was the Swisher Cigarillos that caused Brown to put two and two together -- not Brown matching the description of the suspects, i.e., not Brown's height and weight and enumeration of the clothing he was wearing.
:::::http://fox2now.com/2014/11/15/michael-browns-parents-react-to-release-of-ferguson-police-calls/

:::::I bring this all forward in the interest of improving the article should a reliable source make that possible for us at some point. Until then, it looks like we are stuck in, how did you say, "a place where the Chief just didn't know what he was talking about." Should a reliable source note the inconsistencies that this new evidence seems, to me at least, to make apparent, I believe that mention of the same should be made in the article. [[User:Michael-Ridgway|Michael-Ridgway]] ([[User talk:Michael-Ridgway|talk]]) 07:58, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

::::::From the USA Today, Nov 15, 2014:
MYTH: Wilson stopped Brown because he was a suspect in a robbery.
FACT: Wilson did not know Brown was a suspect in a strong-arm robbery that happened moments before the shooting,
according to Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson. Wilson stopped Brown and his friend for walking in the middle of the street, Jackson said.
http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/15/myths-and-facts-on-ferguson-shooting/19085451/
::::::[[User:Michael-Ridgway|Michael-Ridgway]] ([[User talk:Michael-Ridgway|talk]]) 08:26, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Based on the information so far released, it's unclear when exactly Wilson realized that Brown and his companion matched the description relayed over the radio. It seems to have been sometime after the first verbal exchange but before the altercation occurred. The Chief's early description is not necessarily inconsistent with this. The evidence does establish, however, the Wilson was aware of the reported robbery and the description of the suspects before coming upon Brown. [[Special:Contributions/216.64.189.242|216.64.189.242]] ([[User talk:216.64.189.242|talk]]) 20:34, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

== Symphony protest ==

On October 4, a small group [http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/06/us/michael-brown-symphony-performance/ disrupted a symphony concert] for a few minutes, apparently in St. Louis, in support of Brown. Someone got it on their cellphone and the article includes the video. Is this worth an entry in [[Shooting_of_Michael_Brown#Third_parties|Reactions:Third parties]]? &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 03:47, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
:Personally I see it as relevant to the unrest article, but probably not this one. [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 03:50, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

::In that case Reactions:Third parties needs trimming, and the question becomes where to draw the line. &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 03:53, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

:::My gut feel is specific notable voices ( NGOs, rights orgs, notable civil rights individuals) etc, with a high level summary of the collective public protests, but each individual action/event is probably too much detail for here (although a couple example items may be appropriate.). There have been many dozens of marches, meetings, hecklers, etc. To give even a one sentence coverage to each would swamp the article let a lone the section. This is of course just my own editorial judgement, others may draw the line elsewhere. [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 03:59, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
:::Going down the current list my rough cut would be Sharpton yes, pastors no, petition yes, fundraising probably not but maybe, mass vigils yes, wilson fundraising same as brown fund raising, Anonymous yes but trimmed, monks maybe/no, 150 no, cornel brooks yes, pew study yes, Clinton yes (but wrong section?) The general public I thin kshould just get a paragraph saying there have been protests and meetings for the duration basically, but not detailing any particular one as more notable than any of the others. [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 04:05, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
{{od}}Thanks, awaiting more opinions. &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 04:07, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
:Suggest defining what is meant by ''reactions to the shooting of Michael Brown'', so that it can be applied in an objective way. --[[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 16:47, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

::Well here's my take. Dictionary.com has two definitions for "react" that I think are relevant here. 1. to act in response to an agent or influence. 2. to respond to a stimulus in a particular manner. Both use the word "respond", and that should be the first test. If something happened that wouldn't have happened but for the shooting, it could be called a ''result'' but not necessarily a ''response''. If I'm sitting on a tree branch and it breaks, my fall is not a ''response'' to the failure of the branch. My "OH FUCK!!" on the way down is. After passing that test, an item would be excluded if it belongs in the unrest article. And finally it must be significant enough to include. Objective is asking too much, if you mean a black-and-white, no-judgment-call-required kind of definition. The significance test in particular is a matter of editorial judgment. &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 17:20, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

:::In that case, you might consider removing items in the Reactions section that are reactions to the unrest, and moving them to the unrest article. For example,
:::::* August 12 – Senator [[Elizabeth Warren]] of Massachusetts and Representative [[Justin Amash]] of Michigan tweeted similar descriptions of Ferguson as a "war zone" in the aftermath of the police actions, with Amash calling the situation "frightening" on {{nowrap|August 13}} and Warren demanding answers on {{nowrap|August 14}}.<ref name=Mediaite.Warren/>
:::BTW, I noticed that this item is already in the [[Ferguson unrest]] article,[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2014_Ferguson_unrest&oldid=633860688#Federal_government] so it would be just a matter of deleting it from this Shooting of Michael Brown article. --[[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 19:21, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

::::I think we all agree that there are probably items that shouldn't be there, it's just a matter of agreeing on the criteria, as you suggested. If we used my criteria, the above example would fail my test #2. As for the overlap between articles, [[Talk:2014_Ferguson_unrest/Archive_15#Reactions_sections:_overlap_and_redundancy|here's what I had to say about that]] on September 3 on the unrest article's talk page. I got no response, as you can see. Beyond that, how about we save the overlap issue for another section, to avoid getting too far off topic in this one. I don't think it really needs to be linked to this question, since we can always recover anything we remove from the history. Or we could just copy the entire Reactions section to a user sandbox before we remove anything. &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 19:57, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}

== Video and police report where Wilson arrests citizen videographer for "Failure to Comply" to his demands that he cease videotaping ==

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/shock-video-darren-wilson-violates-1st-amendment-ill-lock-ass-up-arrests-man-filming/
Notable in that Wilson is clearly understood to threaten that if the individual takes one more picture of him, "I'm locking your ass up."
Also notable is the full inclusion of the police report where Wilson gives his version of events and admits to arresting the individual for "Failure to Comply," the same infraction for which a large number of Ferguson protesteres have been arrested in the the months since the shooting.
The article states that this story is an exclusive. I guess that means we can't use it, right? [[User:Michael-Ridgway|Michael-Ridgway]] ([[User talk:Michael-Ridgway|talk]]) 08:42, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

The Guardian picked it up: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/16/ferguson-video-shows-darren-wilson-arresting-man-for-recording-him [[User:Michael-Ridgway|Michael-Ridgway]] ([[User talk:Michael-Ridgway|talk]]) 09:06, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

:In case anyone missed it, a user Bdel555 added that about 13 hours after your comments. Some time after that, I removed it on NPOV grounds. If RS reported an incident two years ago when Brown shoved a girl, I would oppose inclusion of that for the same reason. I'm not 100% confident on this, which is why I encouraged the user to take it to talk. Btw, I don't see any reason why an exclusive from a reliable source would be prohibited, that fact wouldn't make it any less reliable. Btw #2, I note that the home page of thefreethoughtproject.com includes a convenient index to all their articles that have negative things to say about cops. "Police Throw 3-Year-Old in Jail Cell After Arresting Mother." Very impressive. I wouldn't want them and The Guardian to be my only sources for something like this. &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 19:08, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

:I agree that it should stay out. The facts about that earlier arrest are unclear (What was the cause of the incident? Are we sure the "failure to comply" was about filming as opposed to a lawful order?), and in any event, I don't see the relevance to the Michael Brown shooting or the question of whether Wilson was justified in using lethal force. [[Special:Contributions/216.64.189.242|216.64.189.242]] ([[User talk:216.64.189.242|talk]]) 19:21, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
:I also agree that it should be left out. Has nothing to do with the shooting and whether it was justified or not.[[User:Isaidnoway|<font face="Times New Roman" color="blue"> '''''Isaidnoway''''' </font>]][[User talk:Isaidnoway|<font face="Times New Roman" color="blue">'''''(talk)'''''</font>]] 22:53, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
It should be added back in NPOV is to be maintained. "Wilson received a commendation for extraordinary effort in the line of duty'" also has nothing to do "nothing to do with the shooting and whether it was justified or not" yet it's in there in order to on the reader the POV that Wilson is some sort of model officer.--[[User:Bdell555|Brian Dell]] ([[User talk:Bdell555|talk]]) 04:34, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

== Three minutes or 90 seconds? ==

How long a duration shall we report to the world? In spite of the Glide recording which puts the final shot at roughly 12:02:24, and in spite of our claim that the incident began at 12:01, we've been running with 3 minutes for quite some time now. The news media today was all over the 90 second claim. In spite of numerous changes made to the Shooting section this weekend, the "less-than-three minutes" statement remains. [[User:Michael-Ridgway|Michael-Ridgway]] ([[User talk:Michael-Ridgway|talk]]) 08:49, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

:Is it reasonable to assume that the clocks involved are accurate enough to use them for such an analysis? If so, would it be [[WP:SYNTH]] to do so? My answers are I don't know and yes. &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 09:04, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
:However, if you have a quality source or two for 90 seconds, no analysis is necessary. &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 09:10, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
:{{done}} &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 10:50, 16 November 2014 (UTC)


{{old move|date=10 May 2023|from=Shooting of Michael Brown|destination=Killing of Michael Brown|result=moved|link=Special:Permalink/1154250343#Requested move 10 May 2023}}
== Wikilinking newspaper names, etc, in cites ==


== No mention of BLM? ==
Many editors like to wikilink things like [[St. Louis Post-Dispatch]] in cites, wherever possible. These links are functional both from the citation tooltips and from within the References section. This is not currently part of the local standard in this article, but it could be. Does anyone have an opinion one way or the other? &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 08:53, 16 November 2014 (UTC)


Why is there no mention of the fact that this is the incident that kick-started the Black Lives Matter movement? I see a refernce to BLM in the related articles but this was THE incident that made BLM into a prominent group. Any unbiased person who reads this, feel free to add it to the page, people should know that such a large movement was started over misinformation. [[Special:Contributions/99.18.204.223|99.18.204.223]] ([[User talk:99.18.204.223|talk]]) 23:51, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
:No objection, but also seems like a lot of work for not a ton of payoff. [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 15:25, 18 November 2014 (UTC)


:Yeah, that's a weird thing to omit. I'll look into this tomorrow. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 05:48, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
::Of course the additional work would be all mine, as part of the refs standardization that I already do, and I don't have a problem with that. I'm harboring fantasies of a future GA nomination, and I'll do anything that might improve the chances of success there. I just don't care to do it unless it would improve the chances of GA, or would significantly benefit readers, and I'm not a good judge of either. &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 15:57, 18 November 2014 (UTC)


::Still undone? Here are the sources from the BLM article which can be used to add the necessary text. I suggest its level of importance would place the information after, "... unrest in Ferguson (then add) when the movement called [[Black Lives Matter]] began their first massive street demonstrations." See Day, Elizabeth (July 19, 2015). "#BlackLivesMatter: the birth of a new civil rights movement". The Guardian. And see Luibrand, Shannon (August 7, 2015). "Black Lives Matter: How the events in Ferguson sparked a movement in America". CBS News. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/93.23.199.194|93.23.199.194]] ([[User talk:93.23.199.194#top|talk]]) 20:47, 4 February 2023 (UTC)</small><!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::{{u|Mandruss}} Thank you very much for the standardization work you do. I feel bad I just created a bunch more for you. I wish the tooling like reflinks or ProveIt supported that method of citation. In regards to GA, it may be tough to do it until quite a bit of time has passed. Although I do think we are doing a decent job of keeping things neutral in the article, when it comes time for a stamp of approval, its going to become nitpick city on every bit of info and how its presented. [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 16:02, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
::I concur - this event was at the root of what is now known as 'BLM'. [[Special:Contributions/172.250.237.36|172.250.237.36]] ([[User talk:172.250.237.36|talk]]) 16:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)


== Requested move 10 May 2023 ==
::::Never feel bad about that, you're just giving me an opportunity to make a contribution, and I'm not that good at much else yet. Re GA, the same nitpicking must apply to any GA nomination, and some of them are successful. So I'd think this article would have as much chance as any, unless there is some bias against articles of this type. &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 16:07, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::I just meant that due to the politically charged nature of this topic, that nitpicking is likely to be worse. Regarding contributions, Be [[WP:BOLD]] if you think something is missing, or eneds to be changed do it. The worst thing that happens is that you get site banned :) (just kidding). Really the worst thing that happens is that you get reverted and someone calls you a bad name in talk, which isn't all that bad. [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 16:15, 18 November 2014 (UTC)


<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
== Another RS on Judy Melinek's dial back of "out of context" quotes by the St. Louis Post Dispatch ==
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''


The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> – [[User talk:MaterialWorks|<span style="color:#00008b">Material</span>]][[Special:Contributions/MaterialWorks|<span style="color:indigo">Works</span>]] 18:44, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
Pathologists say forensic science alone can't determine whether Wilson justifiably shot the teen. Judy Melinek,
----
a forensic pathologist based in California, says she was quoted out of context in a St. Louis Post-Dispatch story
that said she thought the St. Louis County medical examiner's autopsy of Brown supported Wilson's claim that Brown
was reaching for his gun. Melinek and others say crucial missing information including blood-spatter evidence,
the number and location of bullet casings, the height of the officer's weapon and other ballistic information
must be factored in to determine what happened.
http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/15/myths-and-facts-on-ferguson-shooting/19085451/
<small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Michael-Ridgway|Michael-Ridgway]] ([[User talk:Michael-Ridgway|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Michael-Ridgway|contribs]]) 08:54, 16 November 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->


[[:Shooting of Michael Brown]] → {{no redirect|Killing of Michael Brown}} – A previous RM closed as no consensus in February 2021. Per the previous nominator, [[WP:CONSISTENT]] titles should be used. Many articles that lead with "shooting of" are of non-fatal shootings, such as [[Shooting of Jacob Blake]]. Sources do alternate between "shooting" and "killing", but specificity is better when noting in the article title that Brown died. Here are some RS that refer to this as a "killing" without implying murder: [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53603923][https://www.ajc.com/news/ferguson-brown-faq/][https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/30/us/ferguson-missouri-michael-brown-darren-wilson-no-charges/index.html] &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 18:17, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
::We should certainly put something in qualifying Melinek's statements, but we need to be careful of how we summarize her "walking back". As far as I have read she has merely said that while the evidence she saw was consistent with Wilson's version, it could be consistent with other scenarios too (but I don't believe she said anywhere that it was consistent with any of the Brown version specifically, but I may be wrong), and that additional evidence would help narrow it down. [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 15:39, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
:Additional note per above from Evergreen Fir points out that the flowchart in [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths)]] shows that we should move this to "Killing of Michael Brown". &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 18:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per [[WP:DEATHS]] [[User:EvergreenFir|'''<span style="color:#8b00ff;">Eve</span><span style="color:#6528c2;">rgr</span><span style="color:#3f5184;">een</span><span style="color:#197947;">Fir</span>''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] 18:19, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - Makes sense to me. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 20:03, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Absent a strong [[WP:COMMONNAME]] argument, homicides should be titled "Killing", per [[WP:DEATHS]]. This has been upheld in many RM discussions. See also [[Talk:Killing of Andy Lopez]]. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 20:23, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - See my reason above. [[Special:Contributions/71.205.160.164|71.205.160.164]] ([[User talk:71.205.160.164|talk]]) 21:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
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== Ferguson Public Library - Was in Danger of Closing ==
== Shawn Parcells ==


Shortly after the riots in Ferguson, reports were made of how the Ferguson Municipal Public library was in danger of having to close due to lack of funding, and suggestions were made that if the library could have survived, events leading to the riots might've been prevented.
This can be for general discussion of Parcells content (the earlier thread was archived already, and I have increased the archive age from 4 to 10 days).


Donations to the Ferguson Municipal Public Library not only revived the library, but now it is able to open every day of the week (excluding the Sabbath). A link to make a monthly (or one-time) donation with PayPal is even at the bottom of the home page of their website. Full disclosure, I've been sending them a tiny amount every month for around eight years, as of '23.
To kick it off, {{u|Bob K31416}}, the content before [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shooting_of_Michael_Brown&diff=634495209&oldid=634492711 this edit] went to Parcells' integrity as well as his qualifications and competence. It directly juxtaposed his claim that he trained under Young with Young's denial of that. In other words, it made it clear that, regarding himself, he is either very careless about the truth or delusional. You have removed Parcells' claim, leaving only a vague sentence about Young's statements. Is it your contention that the content should not go to integrity? Over all, I liked the content better before that edit. &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 06:34, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


http://ferguson.lib.mo.us/
:When I compared the space taken up by the original version to the part about the autopsy, I thought it was too much of a digression about the shortcomings of an assistant. What remains has the essential points that Parcells isn't qualified to give medical forensics opinions, the concern about his participation in the autopsy, and Parcells response about the extent of his participation in the autopsy for NPOV. --[[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 06:58, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


Can we add a note to the article, to promote the idea that with a working public library, crime is less likely and the events leading to the killing of Michael Brown would also in turn be less likely?
::I added the older sources because I think there is a risk of this being perceived as a he said/she said or [[swiftboating]]-style attack on his credentials due to the political nature of the case. The older investigations indicate that this is an ongoing issue with Parcells, not specifically related to this case. I do see the risk of getting [[WP:UNDUE]] with this info, but I think some of the content removed should go back. I have already re-added the washed bit with additional sources that make the impact analysis (Baden himself primarily) [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 15:05, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
:::The re-added washed bit and sources are fine. I stand by my previous comment regarding the Parcells part and don't think it should be expanded. --[[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 16:06, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


Do we need references to the news reports regarding the library?
== lead citations ==
[[Special:Contributions/172.250.237.36|172.250.237.36]] ([[User talk:172.250.237.36|talk]]) 16:57, 22 August 2023 (UTC)


== The court case ==
I was going to revert this edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shooting_of_Michael_Brown&curid=43529715&diff=634602128&oldid=634567369] and point them at [[WP:LEADCITE]] but as I re-read it, it seems we may not be in good compliance. <blockquote>Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article.
Some material, including direct quotations and contentious material about living persons, must be provided with an inline citation every time it is mentioned, regardless of the level of generality or the location of the statement.</blockquote> seems like it may cover quite a bit of the info that we have in the lead. Perhaps we should restore the citations? [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 22:07, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


The article reads quite oddly to me. There's a long section on "Investigations". Then there's a very long set of sections on the Grand Jury hearing. Between these, I would expect to find a statement "Wilson was charged with murder" (or maybe manslaughter/unlawful killing). But I see no such statement. I infer from all the Grand Jury stuff that he must have been so charged, but it's strange that the article doesn't explicitly say so. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 21:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
:I can't point to a guideline offhand, but it seems intuitive that anything of significance should be sourced ''somewhere'' in the article. I.e., the cite could be omitted in the lead for statements that summarize sourced information below. &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 22:18, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


== Jennings Disbandment ==
::As far as I know, the guideline I linked is the only relevant one. It covers the principle of what you suggest (and that I agree with in general), but then explicitly says that certain things need to be cited no matter what. I was just raising the issue that maybe a decent portion of our lede falls into that category. [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 22:22, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


The portion of Darren Wilson's background that mentions his previous employment with the disbanded Jennings, MO PD should also mention the reason for the disbanding:
:::There are no direct quotations, and "some material including" is a fairly useless phrase in a guideline, so I assume you're referring to "contentious material about living persons". If contentious is the same as controversial, you may be right, although we don't say anything controversial in Wikipedia's voice. Btw, I see that's in MOS, which makes no sense; that's not about style. &#8209;&#8209;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#8E8278;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#AAA;">&#9742;</span>]] 22:30, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


The small city of Jennings, Mo., had a police department so troubled, and with so much tension between white officers and black residents, that the city council finally decided to disband it. Everyone in the Jennings police department was fired. New officers were brought in to create a credible department from scratch.
== Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2014 ==


From https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/darren-wilsons-first-job-was-on-a-troubled-police-force-disbanded-by-authorities/2014/08/23/1ac796f0-2a45-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html
{{edit semi-protected|Shooting of Michael Brown|answered=yes}}
<!-- Begin request -->
Just a question. How big is Wilson?


As the sections stands now, this portion of his history seems non sequitur. [[Special:Contributions/2601:14A:600:1780:88B0:782B:F7CE:63FA|2601:14A:600:1780:88B0:782B:F7CE:63FA]] ([[User talk:2601:14A:600:1780:88B0:782B:F7CE:63FA|talk]]) 10:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
<!-- End request -->
[[Special:Contributions/72.47.182.59|72.47.182.59]] ([[User talk:72.47.182.59|talk]]) 03:16, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> No request. Interesting question though. If you have a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] that does describe his size, it could be worth discussing that addition - Brown's size is in the article. [[User:Cannolis|Cannolis]] ([[User talk:Cannolis|talk]]) 03:35, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:18, 13 May 2024

No mention of BLM?

Why is there no mention of the fact that this is the incident that kick-started the Black Lives Matter movement? I see a refernce to BLM in the related articles but this was THE incident that made BLM into a prominent group. Any unbiased person who reads this, feel free to add it to the page, people should know that such a large movement was started over misinformation. 99.18.204.223 (talk) 23:51, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's a weird thing to omit. I'll look into this tomorrow. Schierbecker (talk) 05:48, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Still undone? Here are the sources from the BLM article which can be used to add the necessary text. I suggest its level of importance would place the information after, "... unrest in Ferguson (then add) when the movement called Black Lives Matter began their first massive street demonstrations." See Day, Elizabeth (July 19, 2015). "#BlackLivesMatter: the birth of a new civil rights movement". The Guardian. And see Luibrand, Shannon (August 7, 2015). "Black Lives Matter: How the events in Ferguson sparked a movement in America". CBS News. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.23.199.194 (talk) 20:47, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I concur - this event was at the root of what is now known as 'BLM'. 172.250.237.36 (talk) 16:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 10 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – MaterialWorks 18:44, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Shooting of Michael Brown → Killing of Michael Brown – A previous RM closed as no consensus in February 2021. Per the previous nominator, WP:CONSISTENT titles should be used. Many articles that lead with "shooting of" are of non-fatal shootings, such as Shooting of Jacob Blake. Sources do alternate between "shooting" and "killing", but specificity is better when noting in the article title that Brown died. Here are some RS that refer to this as a "killing" without implying murder: [1][2][3] – Muboshgu (talk) 18:17, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Additional note per above from Evergreen Fir points out that the flowchart in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths) shows that we should move this to "Killing of Michael Brown". – Muboshgu (talk) 18:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ferguson Public Library - Was in Danger of Closing

Shortly after the riots in Ferguson, reports were made of how the Ferguson Municipal Public library was in danger of having to close due to lack of funding, and suggestions were made that if the library could have survived, events leading to the riots might've been prevented.

Donations to the Ferguson Municipal Public Library not only revived the library, but now it is able to open every day of the week (excluding the Sabbath). A link to make a monthly (or one-time) donation with PayPal is even at the bottom of the home page of their website. Full disclosure, I've been sending them a tiny amount every month for around eight years, as of '23.

http://ferguson.lib.mo.us/

Can we add a note to the article, to promote the idea that with a working public library, crime is less likely and the events leading to the killing of Michael Brown would also in turn be less likely?

Do we need references to the news reports regarding the library? 172.250.237.36 (talk) 16:57, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The court case

The article reads quite oddly to me. There's a long section on "Investigations". Then there's a very long set of sections on the Grand Jury hearing. Between these, I would expect to find a statement "Wilson was charged with murder" (or maybe manslaughter/unlawful killing). But I see no such statement. I infer from all the Grand Jury stuff that he must have been so charged, but it's strange that the article doesn't explicitly say so. Maproom (talk) 21:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jennings Disbandment

The portion of Darren Wilson's background that mentions his previous employment with the disbanded Jennings, MO PD should also mention the reason for the disbanding:

The small city of Jennings, Mo., had a police department so troubled, and with so much tension between white officers and black residents, that the city council finally decided to disband it. Everyone in the Jennings police department was fired. New officers were brought in to create a credible department from scratch.

From https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/darren-wilsons-first-job-was-on-a-troubled-police-force-disbanded-by-authorities/2014/08/23/1ac796f0-2a45-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html

As the sections stands now, this portion of his history seems non sequitur. 2601:14A:600:1780:88B0:782B:F7CE:63FA (talk) 10:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Killing_of_Michael_Brown&diff=1223694007&oldid=634922468

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