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Template:Vital article

Could some far-more-intelligent-than-me types find a way to organise this Talk page a little better? I don't direct that comment at anyone, just observing that the current Talk page is a little difficult to follow. Having said that a big fan of the Q&As! SiJoHaAl (talk) 04:45, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, SiJoHaAl, and welcome to Wikipedia. Unfortunately we can't go through and organize other people's posts. The most we can do is insert subsections into discussions to allow easier navigation, plus archive past discussions. This means things can get a little messy when there is a lot of discussion happening; you get used to it after you've been here a while and learn how we do things (you can read about that at WP:TALKPAGE), but highly contentious articles like this one can be hard even for experienced editors to follow. —valereee (talk) 13:07, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And omigosh I forgot to say thank you for reading the FAQs! —valereee (talk) 13:09, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think refactoring indents is also allowed on a limited basis. Some posters just never seem to "get" how to indent and I often fix that for them when I am in a discussion with them so that it is clear that it is all one thread.--Khajidha (talk) 15:48, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Khajidha, true, me too, especially newer users. After a few reminders I start getting snappish though. :) —valereee (talk) 21:22, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Yeah, this is a particularly difficult-to-navigate talk page, even as compared to other article talk pages. I think, in all seriousness and sincerity, that we've (collectively) allowed some talk page threads to just spiral out of control. Like beyond the point where the thread is useful to anyone, so long and convoluted that no new editor could possibly jump in. Scroll up and look at #image to faq? and #Separating out different discussion on whether previous RfCs were misconstrued. I've been editing this article almost daily for over a month, I'm one of the primary contributors, I created the FAQ template, I've commented in those threads, and I still have no idea what those threads are about! If I don't know what's being proposed or what we're talking about or where the conversation is going, there is no chance that a newcomer (like SiJoHaAl) could possibly participate. So I wonder if we should archive those threads and going forward make an effort to keep discussion focused and productive--something an average person could follow. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 16:27, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  it could always be worse ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:37, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Ha! True. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 16:38, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• SiJoHaAl—you say it is "difficult to follow". Can you be more specific? Can you point to any concrete examples? Bus stop (talk) 18:00, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Well it could benefit from more sub-sections and archival using the FAQ mechanism. OK, for me reading this talk page yesterday it was difficult to determine which topics of discussion had been resolved and which topics and questions remained open for further talk discussion. As I said in my original comment, I was not pointing to anyone in particular, just making an observation about the presentation as it currently stands. SiJoHaAl (talk) 19:23, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  SiJoHaAl, better now? Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 16:40, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  ooof, yes —valereee (talk) 22:08, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Much better.SiJoHaAl (talk) 14:30, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  SiJoHaAl, for this one, since you were replying to Levivich (even though I also responded to Lev) you indented correctly; we both are responding to the same post, so we use the same number of colons. —valereee (talk) 15:05, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Yay - how do I know when to use the Asterix and when not to? SiJoHaAl (talk) 17:15, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  SiJoHaAl, God bless you for asking these questions. Nobody bothers to ask these questions! WP:LISTGAP contains the long answer; the short answer is: use colons when you're replying to a post with colons; use asterix when you're replying to a post that uses asterix; they should match. So if you're replying to a post like ::Blah blah you would respond with :::Blah blah. If it were **Blah blah, you should put ***blah blah, and if it's a mix, like *:Blah blah, you'd respond with *::Blah blah (adding one more of the right-most character). If it's *::**:*Blah blah just forget about it, that's just not worth worrying about :-) Installing the WP:REPLYLINK script makes this easier, as the script handles indentation for you (and works most of the time, though not all). In terms of whether to use asterix or colon in the first place, that's a matter of personal preference--some editors prefer one, others prefer the other. Generally it's best to sort of make a thread "one or the other", so people just follow what came before. If you make the first reply, you get to decide whether it'll be colons or asterix :-) Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 17:26, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• For the record, WP:TPO lists the following as among the things it's OK to do to other editors' talk page posts:

  Fixing format errors that render material difficult to read. In this case, restrict the edits to formatting changes only and preserve the content as much as possible. Examples include fixing indentation levels ...

Little adjustments to indentation levels, on the fly, have way more benefit than you might think in terms of making the discussion easy to follow (especially so others can tell who's responding to who or whom). EEng 20:53, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, indeed. I wasn't advocating getting rid of the content. Just simple organisation changes like those that have been made by editors since my comment. Much better. If any of my own comments could benefit from indentation fixes and so forth, I welcome those tweaks. SiJoHaAl (talk) 14:30, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SiJoHaAl, I've added a colon to the front of your above post, to indicate that you were replying to EEng. When you reply to someone on a talk page, you indicate to whom you're replying by inserting one more colon than they had used. So if you reply to this, you'd use four colons. That's one of the ways we organize talk pages, along with inserting sections or subsections where we think they're needed and archiving discussions that are over. —valereee (talk) 15:04, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I wish I could make a "poster" of the above exchange, as an example for others.

A well- intentioned, polite newbie posts a bit of a complaint. Several Experienced Editors respond in a friendly manner, and make some needed changes, thereby confirming the poster's observations. Then they go the extra mile, and tutor the OP concerning TP formatting. My thanks to all those who worked together to give a new editor a welcoming experience. I learned something too, concerning the use of asterisks and colons! Sincere regards, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 22:48, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Don't worry, as soon as you lower your guard we'll turn on you like a pack of wolves. EEng 05:47, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Heh,heh.....(hears distant howling, hides under mushroom)Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 20:13, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  We're more bark than bite. ^^^^Kzin grin^^^^ —valereee (talk) 20:22, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  _{Valereee, Run away, run away! [[1]] Seriously, though, thanks.} Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 23:10, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Hennepin County autopsy done precisely 12 hours after Floyd's death, there's no evidence to suggest Derek Chauvin killed George Floyd. In fact, the evidence reported in the autopsy shows the exact opposite.^[1]

There should be an edit done that instead says "Death", since it's very obvious that he died (not at the hands of Chauvin's actions) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PalNate (talk • contribs) 17:48, July 15, 2020 (UTC)

@PalNate: please see FAQ #4 at the very top of this page. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:56, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Muboshgu—I think the source PalNate is providing, the "Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office Autopsy Report" would suggest that the article title is misleading and that FAQ #4 is misleading. The article should be accurate even if a terrible crime was permitted. Bus stop (talk) 23:30, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bus stop, the second autopsy suggests that the title is appropriate. FAQ #4 is appropriate as it was Chauvin's knee on Floyd's neck that killed Floyd. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:33, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Muboshgu—The title is misleading. The second autopsy was carried about privately and paid for by Floyd's family. I can't trust the validity of something when the possibility of a private examiner could have simply been paid to say something. The second autopsy hasn't even been released to the public. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PalNate (talk • contribs) 00:03, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No one has been convicted yet so why is it described as a killing. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Phoenix1494 (talk) 00:52, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Phoenix1494, see FAQ4 (if it doesn't show at the top of this page, you might have to click the "about this page" link at the top to see it) Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 01:01, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Levivich, to be fair, some readers might have a different definition of killing, which is not addressed by the FAQ.—Bagumba (talk) 02:16, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bagumba, who was the perceptive genius editor who raised that point? I edited the FAQ to say "common American English parlance"... better? Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 02:19, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is obvious he was killed..it is just as obvious that he was murdered..this is not a courtroom 2600:1702:2340:9470:200B:8D97:705A:F35B (talk) 01:56, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nor did anyone say or imply it was a "courtroom". Bus stop (talk) 19:31, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes they did...Phoenix brought up innocent until proven guilty which only applies to the law..if an animal " kills " another animal it means the same thing..it has nothing to do with the law..if a soldier gets killed in battle some would say it`s not a murder but the victim was killed 2600:1702:2340:9470:6D85:7514:AA02:ACDF (talk) 21:39, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

At least 50% of editor conflicts on Wikipedia are due to the vast technical gap between mobile and desktop editors. (The other 50% is mostly engvar.) Mobile editors can't indent (if they use the default reply mechanism), don't see the talk page headers, and often miss pings and even user talk page notifications. This causes a lot of disconnect and leads to strife.

The FAQ, for example, does not appear to mobile editors using the default Minerva skin. They have to click "about this page" to see it. And the "about this page" is in like 5pt font. Browse to this page on your phone and see for yourself if you see the FAQ.

I suggest moving the FAQ from the talk page header into a lvl-2-headed section that's pinned that says something like "READ THIS FIRST". i.e., do what every forum on the web does and have a sticky thread with the important stuff at the top. Alternatively, we could have both the talk page header and a sticky thread. I always assumed why Wikipedia doesn't do sticky threads like everyone else, but I'm inferring from the fact that it's not done, that this means a bunch of editors hate it for some reason. I look forward to being enlightened :-) Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 01:06, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking only for myself of course, the reason I never do sticky threads or {{DNAU}} is I can never remember the syntax e.g. the documentation says that {subst:DNAU|2=hours} prevents a thread from being archived for 3650 hours. Um, ok... EEng 01:55, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I just use {{subst:pin section}}. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 02:01, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

At least 100% of editor conflicts on Wikipedia are due to disagreers disagreeing.—Bagumba (talk) 01:47, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I beg to differ. EEng 01:50, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Levivich: We could put an edit notice about the FAQ, to reduce the risk that lack of notification is the issue.—Bagumba (talk) 11:47, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, edit notices don't seem to show in mobile view.—Bagumba (talk) 15:08, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bagumba, exactly. I think a sticky thread (with some kind of attention-grabbing header, link an all caps READ FIRST: or IMPORTANT:) is the only way to "push" a notice to a mobile editor (though I could be wrong of course). Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 15:53, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've never understood this "well, the mobile version can't handle something, so let's not do it" thing. That's a problem with the mobile version, not with Wikipedia itself. Makes as much sense to me as the idea that since radio can't show pictures, we shouldn't have television. And since modern mobile devices can be set to show the normal version with all of its features I don't understand why anyone would continue to use the hacked to bits and hideously ugly mobile version anyway.--Khajidha (talk) 14:53, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Khajidha, the OP wasnt saying not to have an FAQ, but rather how can we make FAQ work for mobile also.—Bagumba (talk) 15:12, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My point still stands. Why isn't the mobile app being told to fix its problems so that it can handle Wikipedia. The mobile view is what needs to change. --Khajidha (talk) 15:17, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Khajidha, yeah I agree, but in the meantime? Informing mobile editors of the FAQ will help desktop editors save time, too. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 15:51, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I vote for header + sticky thread, and hell throw in an edit notice. Can there ever be too many notifications almost no one will read? —valereee (talk) 15:24, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I view FAQs as something that regulars can conveniently point editors to after the fact. We tell editors to be bold, and sometimes editors just overlook something, even if they make a good-faith effort to do due diligence.—Bagumba (talk) 16:13, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The readers may still be missing the context. Apart from police rules, see my proposal above (thanks for the lively discussion thereabout!), let us add info about the environment and rules, legal and otherwise, that the food store and the neighbourhood had operated in.

To wit, and sorry for the messy quotes, as pasting these on the mobile UI:

From the beginning of its operation, CUP Foods has had problems with loitering and drug activity on and near the premises. CUP Foods has also experienced problems with shoplifting, vandalism, theft and forgery. (Licensee at 758-759). 6. Super America, which is a gas station and convenience store located directly across the street from CUP Foods, has also experienced problems with loitering and drug activity on its premises. (Appledorn at 323, 332; Skrivseth at 441-445; Wadena at 645, 661). 7. After CUP Foods was first licensed, the City received complaints about loitering in front of the store and the store remaining open after lawful hours of operation. [1] The City’s Licensing and Consumer Services Division gave the Licensee verbal and written warnings to comply with the lawful hours of operation at CUP Foods.�.. https://mn.gov/oah/assets/211012612.fdg_tcm19-159716.pdf

Plus: CUP Foods is located in a high-crime area of Minneapolis and, not surprisingly, experienced problems with loitering and drug activity in and around the store.   In 1991, relator complained to respondent about the loitering problem, and at a city crime specialist's recommendation, relator placed two yellow “no trespassing” signs outside his store.   Respondent conditioned relator's licenses on reduced hours of operation ...https://caselaw.findlaw.com/mn-court-of-appeals/1060890.html as summed up in the NYT article here: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/15/us/cup-foods-minneapolis-george-floyd.html

-> let us weave them in, maybe together with the aforementioned police "neck" policies, to help elucidate the motivations of the parties, actors, and bystanders.

Zezen (talk) 07:07, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And this one, broadening the cultural and social context, an article from 2015 presaging the events: While laws banning loitering and lurking have deep roots in many Twin Cities [Minneapolis–Saint Paul, for the non-US Wikipedians, moi y compris] communities, legal experts and social activists say they’re often constitutionally questionable and contribute to racial inequality and an authoritarian police force...

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2015/06/22/antiquated-lurking-loitering-laws-have-long-history-in-twin-cities/

As an aside, the local laws quoted therein sound vaguely classist and Communist to my European ear:

In a Coon Rapids [nomen omen, q.v. for the attempts at changing the name] city park, it’s illegal to say anything “loud,” “boisterous” or “insulting.” A person found lurking in Brooklyn Park with the intent “to do any mischief” or “to commit any crime or misdemeanor whatever” can be imprisoned for up to 90 days or fined $1,000. In Maplewood and Cottage Grove, it’s unlawful to loiter “in such a manner as to cause annoyance.” In Minnetonka, you’re forbidden from acting “in a manner not usual for law abiding individuals.” Sheesh. Sounds like a fun place. Zezen (talk) 07:24, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea what point this sea of text is trying to make. The involvement of Cup Foods can be summarised in one sentence: "Floyd passed counterfeit money at Cup Foods, and the store called the police." WWGB (talk) 12:44, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I to have no idea what you want to add.Slatersteven (talk) 12:55, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"The broken windows theory is a criminological theory that states that visible signs of crime, anti-social behavior, and civil disorder create an urban environment that encourages further crime and disorder, including serious crimes." Perhaps it could be argued, but reliable sources would have to provide the argument, that the seedy (disreputable, run-down) environment helped facilitate the tragedy that ensued. Is this what you are referring to, Zezen? Bus stop (talk) 13:34, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is not the place for original research and theories. VikingB (talk) 16:09, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1. "Wall of text" - I pasted salient quotes "saving" your from perusing even more "walls" in the reffed articles.

2. "No place for original research" and "FAQ: I read some information on the web that isn't in this article! When proposing anything to be added to the article you need to cite a reliable source.

NYT and CBSLocal are reliable sources, as far as I know.

3. "I to have no idea what you want to add".

Pasting a "mini-wall of text", then, a quote from the reffed OR, the NYT article summarizing the above "walls of text." I want to add also this social, procedural and legal context:

the killing happened in a neighbourhood] where shootings have erupted nearby and undercover officers have surveilled patrons. Amid reports of rising crime more than 20 years ago, the Police Department urged the store to call 911 on people loitering outside. In the 1990s, the police reported spotting a series of drug sales around the store, and the Minneapolis City Council tried at one point in 2000 to revoke Cup Foods’s business licenses.

-> Both the police and the store were operating under set policies. The actions of the store were not racist but mandated by the Police Department (see above) and ultimately by the City Council, so as not to lose the licence, see the "walls of text" for the detailed rulings. Ditto for the police policies.

As a self-avowed WikiDragon, let me "sapienti sat" at that.

Zezen (talk)

Okay, I think I've figured out what Zezen is proposing. The section above [the killing happened in a neighbourhood] where shootings have erupted nearby and undercover officers have surveilled patrons. Amid reports of rising crime more than 20 years ago, the Police Department urged the store to call 911 on people loitering outside. In the 1990s, the police reported spotting a series of drug sales around the store, and the Minneapolis City Council tried at one point in 2000 to revoke Cup Foods’s business licenses. is a direct quote from the NYT article. Zezen is asking us to provide context: that the neighborhood is high-crime and that the cops had told the store to call 911 for petty offenses such as loitering.

It's not actually OR. The NYT is putting the ideas together; later in the article they discuss the fact the store has changed its policies and will only call 911 to report violence. Is it worth including for context? —valereee (talk) 11:11, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As its now 2020 , no.Slatersteven (talk) 11:15, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is all irrelevant here. Cup Foods reported a fake bill, not loitering or violence. WWGB (talk) 11:23, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

They did report that he was drunk.—Bagumba (talk) 11:46, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's unclear if the 911 guidance still applied; the article also said the area was gentrifying. It might be something to add to it's neighborhood, Powderhorn Park, Minneapolis.—Bagumba (talk) 11:46, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This photo might as well be a confederate statue from America's South, and I find it offense because it could be provoked as a symbolic photo to the the ideas of a white-supremacy. For those reasons, please remove it. Thank you for your time. - King Keenan The Wright 07-18-2020 — Preceding unsigned comment added by King Keenan the Wright (talk • contribs) 07:39, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The image depicts what occurred, just as images of Confederate statues on Wikipedia depict the statue for historical reasons, as an encyclopedia should. Wikipedia is not censored for any reason. 331dot (talk) 07:43, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That. Also, I'm confused. Why do you think hiding the image is going to do more good to stop "the ideas of a white-supremacy"? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:48, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I find it hard to see how white supremacists would think "look here is a white man killing an unarmed black man" will benefit them.Slatersteven (talk) 12:57, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Are we talking about this photo? It should not be removed from the article entirely—but it should be relocated to a lower position in the article. Wikipedia doesn't have to be censored in order for Wikipedia editors to use common sense. An image of George Floyd alive should be at the top of this article. Gratuitous prominence given to violence detracts from the article. Bus stop (talk) 13:18, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yawn! Again? WWGB (talk) 13:24, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is about his death.Slatersteven (talk) 13:26, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Drop the stick. —valereee (talk) 13:28, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I’m all for (1000% percent) moving the depiction of death to another part of the article, but how the hell is that comparable to a Confederate statue? What a non-sequitur. Trillfendi (talk) 16:48, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The OP asserted that the current image could be seen as symbolic of white supremacy; Confederate statues are also viewed as such symbols, but we don't forbid images of them. My point was to emphasize that we don't engage in censorship. 331dot (talk) 19:30, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t believe in censorship either. But I do believe in decorum. Trillfendi (talk) 20:06, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See Q5 at the top of this page. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 16:56, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Leave it alone 2600:1702:2340:9470:200B:8D97:705A:F35B (talk) 01:51, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

George Floyd, (while still alive), is pictured in that article. The Killing of George Floyd is well represented by this image. Please note the verb in the title. The image in the article portrays the act. Per sources given, of course.

As an example, see Oklahoma city bombing, which has an image of the after-effect of the bombing, not a photo of the Murrah Building prior to the (verb), bombing. Because WP is not censored, we have the ability to show the results, or the commssion, of terrible events. Regards,Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 23:59, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the photo. It pithily illustrates what the article is about. Zezen (talk) 20:07, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the photo - HOWEVER the photo is gruesome, grisly, and disturbing. It's a disgusting image. I suggest that this photo be resized to a smaller size and slightly blurred (not enough to eliminate ALL resolution). When I looked at the photo I almost threw up. Children use this website for research. I am not a child and find the photo objectionable. LET'S COMPROMISE and make the photo a little less disturbing by making it smaller and less detailed with a much lower resolution, so that it's grainy and somewhat pixelated, for those of us with a softer stomach. Another compromise is as Bus stop suggests, put the photo elsewhere in the article. I would say both options aren't mutually exclusive, the photo could be both pixelated and put elsewhere in the article. Keep up the good work. בס״ד 172.250.237.36 (talk) 17:00, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your pinging me. I only support relocating the photo within the article. I don't support measures that involve degrading the quality of the image—such as reducing image size or image resolution—in fact I think those are terrible ideas. Censorship hinges on the reduction or elimination of information—in this case visual information. But relocating an image within an article sacrifices no information—it only reduces the initial impact the reader has with the image. Bus stop (talk) 17:48, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The photo depicts an act which was "gruesome, grisly, and disturbing". To remove it, hide it, or edit it is to refuse to face the truth and is highly offensive and unbecoming of an encyclopedia. --Khajidha (talk) 13:14, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Where ever we move the image to someone's still gonna object, Leave it where it is. –Davey2010^Talk 17:56, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree 2600:1702:2340:9470:9407:91EF:9E8C:2E7 (talk) 22:38, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Although if it's lower - would that not or would it still be visible in a "hover" of a mouse pointer? If not, then less "objections!" I would support anything that results in a less objectionable article, especially if we consider how a young adult, a pregnant woman, or a child might unwittingly see this image. Let's keep things real. Keep up the good work! בס״ד 172.250.237.36 (talk) 08:47, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A substantively similar discussion is at the thread you already started at Talk:George_Floyd#Misleading/False_Information. I suggest initial discussion take place there and avoiding multiple forums. Details specific to this article, if needed, can be continued here afterwards. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 08:55, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

the first point here is unique to this page and deserves a discussion here as it is once again, unique to this page... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stayfree76 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Its also OR. As I see it is only at this point "Lane:' Put your hand up there. Put your fucking hand up there! Jesus Christ, keep your fucking hands on the wheel." that Officer Lane tells him to put his hand on the steering wheel, nor is "up there" in any version of English I know synonymous with "on the steering wheel". In fact even not pissed I would have to have asked "where do you want me to put my hands?".Slatersteven (talk) 16:51, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

no, that is when he told him to keep his hand on the steering wheel. the only point i am making is: the wiki statement implies that the command to show hands was immediately obeyed, but it was not. the order was the show hands not put hands on steering wheel. how hard is it to not misquote someone? this is a huge problem, especially since the person in question is still alive. Stayfree76 (talk) 17:05, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]