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	Joseph McCarthy has been listed as one of the good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result May 11, 2005 Featured article candidate Not promoted December 11, 2005 Peer review Reviewed June 8, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted February 20, 2007 Good article nominee Listed Current status: Good article

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Is there some reason why all discussion regarding this topic has ceased? Jtpaladin 23:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is there some reason why all discussion regarding this topic has to continue? If you feel you need to discuss something about the article, do it. We shouldn't talk so that we don't shut up. If nobody says anything, this means that nobody has anything to say (or has, but doesn't want to say it)86.104.234.46 11:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree completely. I was just wondering why the article remains POV. I assumed that this matter was going to be resolved. If no one has any objections, I'll re-engage discussion regarding making the article NPOV. Thank you for your response. Jtpaladin 21:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since your contributions to discussion inevitably consist of uninformed wingnut drivel, I object. RedSpruce 22:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I could just as easily say that your contributions consist of maintaining the "crackpot Communist Party line" but I won't. However, I will say that you are violating WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. Stop addressing your comments at me and instead address the article itself. I would hate to see you banned for violating Wikipedia rules. Jtpaladin 23:24, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of DCgeist's assertion of it being factual, the statement is disputed. The way its worded is inherently unverifiable. According to a widely circulated but unsubstantiated rumor, test audiences, unaware that only archival footage of McCarthy was used in his depiction, felt that the "performer" who "played" McCarthy was overacting. There are no authoritative reports of any such test audience reaction.

It clearly states there is no source and its not substantiated. WP:V very clearly requires a source, so unless one is provided it cannot stay in the article. I provided a source from a newspaper, but that wasn't acceptable for DCGeist and he doesn't seem interested in finding one. If that is the case then that sentence can be removed. We don't get to leave something in the article by declaring it completely unverifiable.--Crossmr 03:00, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This entire item is so vague, against the background of a minutely-researched biography, that it seems hard to justify retaining that sentence. While the comment about McCarthy 'overacting' is juicy if anyone actually made it, it would represent the point of view of some individuals in the audience who can't be named or even narrowed down to a particular city, and who are not on record as being interviewed by any particular journalist. If it were up to me I would strike the whole sentence about the rumor. EdJohnston 03:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the problem: There are multiple putatively "reliable" sources that have disseminated this rumour without caveat, that is, as fact. For instance, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette critic John Hayes begins his review of the film thus: "When director George Clooney held screenings of 'Good Night, and Good Luck,' audience members said they felt the guy who played Sen. Joseph McCarthy was overacting."^[1] Careful research, however, demonstrates no evidence whatsoever for this claim. Hayes, like many others, is simply repeating an unfounded rumor without questioning it. He does not, because he cannot, say where this test audience saw the movie, when they saw the movie, and how many of its members had the fabled response. When the discussion of the rumor has been absent from the article in the past--the state EdJohnston suggests we return to--various editors have placed the rumor in the article without caveat, that is, again, as fact. There is not a shred of evidence that it is a fact, but it is a very persistent rumor. The current means of dealing with it is the most effective available at the moment. Yes, it would be lovely if a responsible journalist would state clearly that it is an unsubstantiated rumor. Until that glorious day, let's continue to ward off falsification of the historical record as best we can. It is the rumor itself that fails WP:V, and we do good by Wikipedia and its readers in stating so (in different words, of course) in the article.—DCGeist 04:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette is a reliable source, while your "careful research" is Wikipedia:original research. That means that until you have another reliable source saying it's just an unsubstantiated rumor, we shouldn't say it is. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 12:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. We're making claims we cannot back up.--Crossmr 12:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then give evidence that its widely disseminated as the sentence claims, or better yet find a source which speaks to the fact that so many newspapers have reported it, yet no one can substantiate it. Because as its written, it reads like something completely unverifiable, of which no verification can ever be found. Widely disseminated is subjective and a citation has to be provided so that an editor can verify that statement which hasn't been done.-Crossmr 12:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There seem to be two choices here. Either qualify the report of the rumor enough to make it properly sourced (e.g. credit it to the Post-Gazette writer in the body of the text, as a direct quote, and state that he provides no details), or leave it out. But why does something so flimsy belong in a serious historical article? That is the sensible reason for leaving it out. The third way, that I don't favor, is to keep the rumor in but say bad things about it by calling it widely-circulated but unverifiable. This would seem to violate our rules because there are no sources to back up that description of the rumor. The Post-Gazette certainly doesn't say that. EdJohnston 13:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank God. Where were you guys? I'm glad to see that there are still people who find this article POV and want to improve it. That Clooney movie rumor should be removed. It has no basis in fact. Otherwise, I begin today's session below: Jtpaladin 14:58, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

God says you're welcome. Yes, as I suggested, it would be nice not to have to mention the rumor at all. But when it has gone unmentioned in the past, it has routinely been entered in the article as fact. I wrote that quite plainly above. Ah...reading. Helps with the communication process. God likes it, too--in the beginning was the word...well you know.—DCGeist 05:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So then remove it after its edited and remind the editors that there is no proof of it. We don't keep something in an article that is unverifiable just because individuals keep adding it.--Crossmr 15:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the absence of anyone who wants the rumor kept and is willing to fully document its existence and multiple reportage, I propose that we delete the rumor from the article. If people keep re-adding it in the future, we can revert with a mention of the talk page consensus that it does not belong. EdJohnston 15:32, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We can do a bit more than maintain a revert watch, I realized. Mention of rumor and caveat against its inclusion without firm evidence now hidden after Good Night, and Good Luck bullet point.—DCGeist 15:52, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's start out with something simple. The following statement mixes fact with Original Research WP:OR.

The cause of his death was variously reported as acute hepatitis and cirrhosis.

Why not add cancer, heart failure, murder by Communists, alien abduction, glue sniffing, lead poisoning, and being "raptured" to a list of possible reasons for Senator McCarthy's death? This is Original Research and speculation. Or, we could just stick to the official cause of death as reported on his Death Certificate. That would be acute hepatitis.[1]

I'm going to add a "citation needed" to this statement, give a day to get a response or correction and then I'm going to edit. This article has existed in this form long enough for proper citation. Lacking proper citation is cause for deletion or alteration of the issue in question. Jtpaladin 17:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: I'm going to be targeting WP:OR, WP:VERIFY, WP:SOAP, WP:OR, and WP:CON issues. I suggest that those not familiar with these guidelines should make themselves knowledgeable of them or remain out of this disucussion or refrain from doing any edits until they do so. These guidelines are essential to any article. I would be happy to help anyone to better understand these guidelines and I appreciate anyone who helps me stay focused on them as well. Thank you. Jtpaladin 17:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd have to agree. If there is a reported and official cause of death, cite it and stick with that.--Crossmr 18:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In this edit, Jtpaladin is favoring a primary source (the cause of death listed in the death certificate) over the analysis presented by secondary sources. This is contrary to WP policy, as stated in Wikipedia:Attribution#Reliable sources, in the subsection "Primary and secondary sources."

It is possible to characterize all the summarizations, analyses and/or interpretations of secondary sources as "speculation," and to thereby suggest that they're less reliable than primary sources. There's no need for us to argue about that point however, because the WP policy it clear: Secondary sources are preferred. RedSpruce 15:35, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

RedSpruce, I was in the middle of typing a response to your edit when you commented. Here's what I was writing:

RedSpruce, all joking aside between us, I seriously appreciate your efforts to cite sources for McCarthy's death but in that statement, we are looking for accuracy, not speculation. Both Oshinsky's book and Reeves' book are vehement anti-McCarthy books. They include every possible story and unsubstantiated rumor they could throw in their book. I don't know if you've read their books but I read them both and found a great deal of their data to be just rumor. Herman does a bit of a balancing act but even he doesn't stick to solid sources. It's only fair and within Wiki guidelines to report the "official" cause of death and leave out rumor. The only way to add those sources is to say that "rumor has it that McCarthy died of alcoholism" but the problem is that Wiki does not allow for rumor and speculation as part of an official citation. The biggest obstacle in adding the "alcoholism" view is WP:NPOV. In that guideline, you have to be able to quote specific people who can attest to McCarthy dying as a result of alcoholism and that their opinion is neutral and not based on ax-grinding. Even more importantly, as you know alcoholism is not a cause of death. It is a syndrome or an addiction. It is not something any coroner is going to put down as the cause of death. I don't see any problem in simply quoting the factual cause of death which is "acute hepatitis" and leaving out speculation about him being an aloholic. If you can cite a Wiki guideline that allows for rumor in this instance, please do so and then let's reach a consensus about including that into the article. But I ask you please not to edit something without discussing it here first because of the contentious nature of this article. I would very much like to work together to improve the article and to do so means that we should be able to reach a consensus on the issues. Thank you for your time. Jtpaladin 15:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jtpaladin, you are arguing the point that I said there was no point in us arguing. Secondary sources are preferred. Your personal opinions about the quality of those sources doesn't matter; only the opinion of the scholarly community matters, and these sources include the two most notable and respected biographies of McCarthy. If you could cite equally reliable sources that state a contrary view, that view would warrant inclusion in the article. But in this case you're arguing against a view that is universally accepted by all reputable sources on McCarthy.

I agree that "died of alcoholism" is questionable from a technical point of view, but the phrase is commonly used and universally understood. It seems preferable to "drank himself to death," which would be more technically accurate.RedSpruce 16:03, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about instead of "he died of alcoholism," "his death was brought on by alcoholism"--a little wordier, but both appropriate tonally and accurate technically.—DCGeist 16:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Guys, the problem still lies in the fact that we don't know on a medical basis if citing alcoholism was a factor in his death. For example, I know of examples of people who have died of "acute hepatitis" that were not alcohol consumers at all. I also know of cases of people that were chronic alcoholics that died of medical reasons completely unrelated to alcohol. So again, we are having to rely on speculation to include the alcoholism factor in the cause of death which according to Wiki guidelines would be inappropriate. If someone wants to go into the alcoholism issue somewhere in the article, that would be fine but trying include it as part of the official cause of death would be mixing fact with rumor. Jtpaladin 16:23, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia articles are to be based upon reliable secondary sources. All reliable secondary sources state unequivocally that McCarthy drank himself to death. Therefor this information belongs in the article. The evidence indicating that McCarthy drank himself to death is quite overwhelming, but that doesn't matter by itself, just as it doesn't matter that you consider that evidence to be "rumor". It's what the reliable sources say, therefor it belongs in the article. RedSpruce 17:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

RedSpruce, WP:RS is not the only standard upon which articles are based. But like I said, if you want to discuss rumor about what contributed to his death, it's already in the article. Check out: [2]. The initial paragraph that we have been discussing summarizes the McCarthy article and the main body of the article goes into detail. The speculation of alcoholism is done in the "Final years" section. So, I think that settles this issue, don't you? Jtpaladin 17:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If the intro section is going to mention the cause of death, it should do in a way that is accurate according to the policies of Wikipedia. It currently does not do this. I suggest that, since the "official" cause of death is dismissed as a polite lie by his biographers, the mention of it should be removed from the intro, and replaced with what his biographers universally agree is the actual cause of death. Per DCGeist's suggestion I propose simply "His death was brought on by alcoholism." RedSpruce 18:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with that is that we would be using unofficial information in a section that should be giving the official coroner's report. Like I said, the topic of alcoholism is already addressed in the "Final years" section. That is the appropriate place to discuss what his biographers thought brought on his death. The biographers are simply stating an opinion whereas the coroner's report is a fact whether we agree with the report or not. It also follows the manual of style WP:MOS to briefly lay out facts in the intial paragraph and then go into all sorts of details in the body of the article. There's no reason to keep repeating the same thing over and over throughout the article. Merely stating the fact in the initial paragraph and going into argumentative detail in a later section is very much in keeping with the manual of style found throughout the articles in Wikipedia. Jtpaladin 19:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree with you, except that this isn't an argumentative issue. There is universal agreement on the part of reliable McCarthy authors that he died as a result of alcoholism. Including only the coroner's cause would therefor be to include a statement that is universally regarded as false. If you want the official cause included in the intro, I would accept "The official cause of his death was acute hepatitis, though biographers agree that his death was brought on by alcoholism." I believe that this would be unnecessary repetition, and that the relatively minor point about the misleading coroner's report should only be mentioned in the body of the article. RedSpruce 19:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Even if I were to agree with you about what some biographers have said (I've seen the claim disputed), I guess the main issue would be where official info should appear and where unofficial info should appear. I'm of the thought that the official cause should be in the intro and the unofficial should be in the main body where it is right now. I think you and I are pretty much at odds with this question so maybe we can get some other opinions on this so we can reach a consensus. Sound fair? The funny thing is consider how much time we've spent debating this minor issue when there are much larger issues to be discussed. Jtpaladin 22:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's no need for a third opinion. As I stated at the beginning, WP policy is extremely clear on this point: Secondary sources are preferred. And in this case, the reliable secondary sources are unanimous. Show me a single reliable secondary source that argues that McCarthy did not drink himself to death and then perhaps we have a reason to continue this discussion. As things stand now, you are defending an edit that violates WP policy. RedSpruce 10:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's where WP:CON comes into play. You and I disagree about adding speculation to an official coroner's report. The article already states the speculation of biographers but it seems you want to add speculation to every reference of McCarthy's cause for death. What's wrong with leaving one comment without speculation and just sticking to facts? Also, none of the sources I cite are going to be liked by you. I can cite James Drummey, Roy Cohn, M. Stanton Evans and others but you won't like them and you will simply disregard them so what's the point? At this point, we need consensus to settle the matter. That's what Wiki guidelines call for when we reach such a point. And, we have reached that point. Jtpaladin 15:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As you know, James Drummey, Roy Cohn, M. Stanton Evans do not qualify as reliable sources under WP guidelines. As I've pointed out, referring to the contributions of secondary sources as "speculation" does not alter the fact that WP prefers secondary sources. You do not have a disagreement with me here; you have a disagreement with WP policies. I suggest you take that disagreement to the proper discussion forum. RedSpruce 15:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why is the article suggesting that McCarthy's claims were "unsubstantiated"? It's mentioned twice in the intro alone!!

He was noted for making unsubstantiated claims that there were large numbers of Communists and Soviet spies and sympathizers inside the federal government.

McCarthy was never able to substantiate his sensational charges.

Can someone please reference a specific claim where McCarthy was wrong in this regard? Certainly we are not suggesting that McCarthy wasn't right about Communists in govt., right?[3][4][5] Anyone who has read the Executive Session transcripts and/or Venona will find that McCarthy did in fact find Communists in govt. Can someone substantiate this comment in the article? Thank you. Jtpaladin 15:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In all cases, the context of any statement about unsubstantiated claims provides the references that show that the claims were unsubstantiated.

As for the requests for citation that you've added to the article, it isn't clear what you want citations for. Because these are introductory sentences, they're broad and general, so no single citation can support everything they cover. Every point in those sentences is fully supported, with citations, in the body of the article. RedSpruce 16:03, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone substantiate this:

Ultimately, his tactics led to his being discredited and censured by the United States Senate.

What tactics are we talking about here? You mean the kind of tactics used by Congressional members to question organized crime figures? How was he discredited? When did a "censure" happen? McCarthy was "condemned" by the Senate, not "censured". There is a difference. Jtpaladin 15:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article substantiates the statement, in most unequivocal terms. The article also points out (with citations) that the term "censure" is generally used, despite the fact that the word "condemned" appeared in the text of the resolution. In other words, in the eyes of historians and the Senate, there is not a difference between the two. RedSpruce 16:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Most junior senators don't have particularly distinguished terms in the first few years. They don't have seniority so they don't get to be chairmen or serve on important committees. Also, McCarthy was part of the minority party so his opportunities were even fewer. So should every biography about every junior senator that has ever served in the U.S. Senate be tagged as "undistinguished"? This is a POV of view comment. Anyone see it differently? Jtpaladin 15:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]