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m Maintain {{WPBS}} and vital articles: 4 WikiProject templates. Merge {{VA}} into {{WPBS}}. Keep majority rating "B" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 4 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Biography}}, {{WikiProject France}}, {{WikiProject Women's History}}, {{WikiProject Longevity}}.
 
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| author = Eli Rosenberg
| title = The world's oldest person record stood for decades. Then came a Russian conspiracy theory
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== Jeanne vs Yvonne ==
== Jeanne Calment's true age ==
After [[Kane Tanaka]] died at 119, Jeanne Calment's age looks more suspicious than before. I notice that some sources claim her daughter had stolen her identity. The fact that she outlived the second-oldest person ever by more than 3 years makes this claim somewhat more reasonable. I mean, when someone approaches the biological limit of human life span, every day would be a hefty challenge (just like breaking the 100-metre dash world record, every 0.01s would be a huge breakthrough). I reckon people should start conducting another investigation into her age. [[Special:Contributions/120.16.102.86|120.16.102.86]] ([[User talk:120.16.102.86|talk]]) 12:22, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
<small>''(section copied from [[User Talk:JFG#Jeanne Calment|my talk page]])'' — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 20:52, 5 December 2018 (UTC)</small>
:I have to agree obviously! [[User:Bart Versieck|Extremely sexy]] ([[User talk:Bart Versieck|talk]]) 02:10, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

::Completely agree. The fact that #2 lived only 10 days longer than #3, and #4 is currently living at 118, I think Calment's age is dubious. However, it's not uncommon to spot huge, massive statistical outliers. But I don't see how launching another investigation into her age even remotely correlates to her Wikipedia talk page, unless you're seriously suggesting the investigation should be carried out by Wikipedia itself. [[Special:Contributions/146.200.180.251|146.200.180.251]] ([[User talk:146.200.180.251|talk]]) 18:06, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
Hi.
:::The investigation continues outside Wikipedia. Zak and Gibbs published a new book: "Jeanne Calment, the Secret of Longevity Unravelled: Volume I, The switch", https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BGQL8B2G. [[Special:Contributions/81.154.127.249|81.154.127.249]] ([[User talk:81.154.127.249|talk]]) 18:53, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
https://www.leafscience.org/valery-novoselov-investigating-jeanne-calments-longevity-record/
::::The dataset is so weird. If we look at this here:
This is a source that says that Jeanne Calment was Yvonne Calment so her finally age is 99 not 122? Am I right? Or jeanne Calment was Yvonne Calment bus anyway she lived 122 years old? [[User:Ignoto2|Ignoto2]] ([[User talk:Ignoto2|talk]]) 19:10, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
::::[[Oldest people]]
:Man, this will ''really'' put the cat among the pigeons. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 19:23, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
::::Then most of this range is from 117 to 119.
::Well well well that is pretty convincing stuff. 99 years old is much more believable. Avoiding a bunch of taxes and gaining a life annuity are pretty good reasons to pull a switch. She would not have guessed she would live to 99 which extend her fake age so far out. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 19:52, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
::::While it is, theoretically, possible to have outliers above, it seems
:{{re|Ignoto2}} The gerontologist and statistician who looked at the data were suspicious of Calment's extremely outlying age of 122, whereas [[List of the verified oldest people#100 verified oldest women|the next 42 oldest women ever]] died between 115 and 117, except one at 119. They noticed that Calment's only daughter, Yvonne, died of pneumonia at a young age, and Jeanne kept on living in the same household as Yvonne's husband, who never remarried, and raised their child (who was 8 upon his mother's purported death). The alleged story is that ''Jeanne'' died of pneumonia in 1934 (aged 59) and that Yvonne and her husband conspired to declare Yvonne dead instead of Jeanne, so they would not have to pay estate taxes. That scenario would be compatible with the "perfect track record" of various administrative proofs of Jeanne's age across decades,[https://www.demogr.mpg.de/books/odense/6/09.htm] because the identity substitution would have been invisible to census officers and the like.
::::WAY too convenient for it to be at 122, in the year 1997. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:8388:1641:4980:0:0:0:2|2A02:8388:1641:4980:0:0:0:2]] ([[User talk:2A02:8388:1641:4980:0:0:0:2|talk]]) 11:30, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
:To answer your question directly, the person who died in 1997 would have been Yvonne, aged 99, pretending to be 122. That would also explain a lot of the anomalies in this person's capabilities and living conditions, compared to numerous other documented old ladies: living on her own from 88 to 110, walking without a stick until 114, outliving her blood relatives by three decades (father died 93 years, mother 86, brother 97), neurophysiological tests ''at 118'' demonstrating "verbal memory and language fluency comparable to that of persons with the same level of education ''in their eighties and nineties''." Of course, if she was really just 95 at the time, these results would raise no eyebrows.
:::::Geneticists have noted that, since Jeanne Calment had 16 distinct great-great-grandparents while her daughter Yvonne had only 12, the question of identity could easily be settled by a test for autozygous DNA, if a blood or tissue sample were to be made available.<ref>{{cite journal|first=François|last=Robin-Champigneul|title=Jeanne Calment's Unique 122-Year Life Span: Facts and Factors; Longevity History in Her Genealogical Tree|journal=Rejuvenation Research|date=Feb 2020|volume=23|issue=1|pages=19–47|doi=10.1089/rej.2019.2298|pmid=31928146|doi-access=free}}</ref><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/129.94.8.31|129.94.8.31]] ([[User talk:129.94.8.31#top|talk]]) 22:54, 30 Apr 2023 (UTC)</small>
:If this research is confirmed, that would indeed be quite a bombshell. Damn Russians! Where's Mueller when we need him? — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 20:32, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::It's another example of the [[King effect]]. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2605:A601:A099:BB00:28D2:A2B3:BB51:278E|2605:A601:A099:BB00:28D2:A2B3:BB51:278E]] ([[User talk:2605:A601:A099:BB00:28D2:A2B3:BB51:278E#top|talk]]) 20:15, 28 July 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
There are more prove that Jeanne died at the age of 122 than 99.
:Yet here on Wiki you have proof that the 100m record was broken by 0.9 seconds 14 years ago. Plus Robert Wadlow was 2 inches taller than anyone ever, and than was 80 years ago. [[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C7:6393:B201:F11B:8DC5:10:8941|2A00:23C7:6393:B201:F11B:8DC5:10:8941]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C7:6393:B201:F11B:8DC5:10:8941|talk]]) 22:01, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
[[User:Ignoto2|Ignoto2]] ([[User talk:Ignoto2|talk]]) 21:44, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
::It's highly improbable she lived to 122. Identity theft makes so much more sense - motive, oppotunity, means. I searched for more sources but this is the only one, posted yesterday. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 20:50, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
:::If they can dig up the grandson-who-might-be-a-son and get some DNA, that will easily settle it. But let's just let this sit for now. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:09, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

I've done a redirect from Yvonne Calment to here. Yvonne has long been mentioned in the article anyway. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 00:08, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

== Given the recent piece of info... ==

...can we move the article to [[Jeanne and Yvonne Calment]]?? If not, please explain if anyone can try to show that the recent info is wrong. [[User:Georgia guy|Georgia guy]] ([[User talk:Georgia guy|talk]]) 21:25, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
:We probably should not until the allegations are more than allegations. [[User:Surtsicna|Surtsicna]] ([[User talk:Surtsicna|talk]]) 21:29, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
::The "true believers" are not convinced yet [https://the110club.com/did-jeanne-calment-really-reach-122-t3663-s75.html] one person is claiming one of the researchers has been banned from the forum. This research is not going to be popular as one person said essentially "if you toss out her claim you have to toss out every claim above 110" [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 21:35, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
:Besides, even if it was actually Yvonne, officially it was still Jeanne. We would treat Jeanne Calment as the notable alter ego of an otherwise unknown Yvonne. [[User:Surtsicna|Surtsicna]] ([[User talk:Surtsicna|talk]]) 22:05, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
::But we would have to update the info as "Jeanne Calment, born Yvonne Calment..." [[User:Georgia guy|Georgia guy]] ([[User talk:Georgia guy|talk]]) 22:09, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
:::Uh, all of this would be unprecedented, methinks. Instead of moving the article, we would be changing its scope/subject. [[User:Surtsicna|Surtsicna]] ([[User talk:Surtsicna|talk]]) 23:24, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
::::And we would have to title the article to make sure it matches the actual subject. [[User:Georgia guy|Georgia guy]] ([[User talk:Georgia guy|talk]]) 23:30, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::But surely the subject would still be Jeanne Calment. A different Jeanne Calment perhaps, but unless reliable sources suddenly start referring to her as Yvonne, Jeanne Calment would remain the [[WP:Common name|common name]]. [[User:Surtsicna|Surtsicna]] ([[User talk:Surtsicna|talk]]) 23:40, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::We will not need to change the page name, only update the content. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 23:43, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
{{od}} This is only educated speculation so far. If/when a majority of RS end up reporting that Yvonne impersonated her mother over decades, we'll be able to change the article contents accordingly. I don't think the title would change, because the subject's notability has always been under Jeanne's name. The lede might simply become: {{tq|Jeanne Calment (1875–1934) was a French woman from Arles who was considered the oldest person in the world over several decades. It later emerged that her daughter Yvonne (1898–1997) had lived under her dead mother's identity from 1934 until her own death in 1997, aged 99; she was then believed to be 122 years old.}} For now, the short sentence about this allegation is fully sufficient. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 23:47, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
:Exactly. Let's spend no further time on this until there's more -- way more. It's a tantalizing theory but for now it's just that -- tantalizing and a theory. Maybe too tantalizing. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:33, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

::The french insurance book quoted would be a good RS as well. I expect this will get some traction in other RS in time. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 00:37, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

I concur that fraud is the right word. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeanne_Calment&curid=325918&diff=872226789&oldid=872225526] Identity theft would be a crime against the dead mother, this would be a crime against the government, the guy who bought her apartment, and fooling the researchers. After so many years and with a life annuity to lose she would be stuck in the deception (assuming the new info bears out) [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 00:44, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi! Please consider replacing the word Allegation with the word Hypothesis in the section telling about Valery Novoselov's interview. In the interview itself the possibility that Jeanne is Yvonne is called a hypothesis, and it is called a hypothesis by Valery himself. I think it would be more accurate this way as there are no CLAIMS.
Citation from the article of how Valery describes it: "After looking at all the data that Nikolay has managed to collect, including the known intentional destruction of the family archive on Jeanna’s orders, we developed a hypothesis that is now being checked. In 1934, there was a death in the Calment family. The official story is that in 1934, Jeanne had lost her only daughter, Yvonne. We think that in reality it was Jeanne who had died, aged almost 59, and her daughter took her name and personality." <ref> https://www.leafscience.org/valery-novoselov-investigating-jeanne-calments-longevity-record/ </ref>
[[User:ElenaMilova|ElenaMilova]] ([[User talk:ElenaMilova|talk]]) 08:39, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}
{{reflist-talk}}
:{{re|ElenaMilova}} Thank you for pointing out this important nuance. The article has been updated accordingly. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 12:04, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
::I have also corrected the phrasing in other articles where the study is mentioned: [[List of French supercentenarians]], [[List of supercentenarians by continent]], [[Oldest people]], and [[List of the verified oldest people]]. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 12:13, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

== Rewrite that Jeanne was not the oldest person ever? ==

There is one line in this article which deals with the recent study indicating that Jeanne was really her daughter who took the original Jeanne's place, and only lived to 99. The study seems to be gaining a lot of recognition, so should the article be rewritten to make it clear that she did not necessarily (if anything I would say, almost certainly didn't) live to age 122? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/130.215.220.235|130.215.220.235]] ([[User talk:130.215.220.235#top|talk]]) 22:37, 6 December 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I'm waiting to see how this study gains traction. So far we have just one source and in there a ref to an insurance book as a second source. If you have more sources post them please. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 22:40, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
*It's WAY too early to do more than note that this question has been raised. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 02:19, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
:Can't resist adding that https://www DOT google.com/amp/s/the110club.com/viewtopic.php%3ft=3663&amp=1 shows what goofball amateurs these longevity fans are. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 10:05, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
::I can't get that link to work even with replacing the dot, but I did find they banned the member that brought tried to discuss the new article suggesting she was not 122. [https://the110club.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=16075] Not much science amd a whole lot of fan club over there. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 11:34, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
:::Following the link asks for a login now. I think the first time I got in via some other path. Anyway, try googling ''Jeanne Calment fraud'' and if you see a header partway down reading "Did Jeanne Calment really reach 122? - The 110 Club" try that. They keep saying over and over how there's a birth record and baptismal record and identity papers throughout the years, which has nothing to do with the actual question: is this the same person? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 12:54, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
::::You are invited to help build [[Draft:Verification of supercentenarians]]. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 16:47, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I got in some way but some parts of the forum are indead locked down. They blocked the user posting links to the source disputing the claim - which says a lot.

* https://medium.com/@yurideigin/jaccuse-why-122-year-longevity-record-may-be-fake-af87fc0c3133 very interesting read with many pictures.
* russian presentation https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=41B8120C989594F7!180323&ithint=file%2cdocx&app=Word&wdo=2&authkey=!AKRAZiUa0ZxPDkI
[[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 02:26, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
:"indead"? Your humor is so disrespectful! [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 05:05, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

*I undid any mention until this can be proven as right now we have a hypothesis supported by a singe source. If that is guaranteed inclusion then why not include everyone claiming to be over the age of 122 on [[List of the verified oldest people]]? I don't see how this would pass [[WP:N]] without third party coverage. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 02:57, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
*:I restored it. A hypothesis doesn't have to be "proven as right" for us to report it on its face. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 05:05, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

We have 4 sources now. Two articles in English, a presentation in Russian and a completely separate book about insurance. Indead was strickly a typo (typing with my thumbs on mobile). I'll leave it though, as it's pretty funny. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 08:34, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
:::"strickly a typo", huh? You're a sly one, Legacypac. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 14:40, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
:Agree with the restoration. This hypothesis is not presented as fact, and is now supported by several sources It is not a wacko theory: it's plausible on its face. As encyclopedists, we are not in the business of deciding the truth of any fact, only to duly report credible hypotheses as such (see [[WP:VNT]]). We are not giving undue weight to this hypothesis, by isolating it to a single 4-line section. A brief mention in the lede is in my opinion warranted, due to the potential impact of the alternative story. All in all, the article looks well-balanced given the current state of knowledge and sources. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 13:57, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

== Picture of Yvonne ==

One of the newly-published articles about the Yvonne hypothesis[https://medium.com/@yurideigin/jaccuse-why-122-year-longevity-record-may-be-fake-af87fc0c3133] mentions that Wikipedia has mislabeled a picture of Yvonne as being of Jeanne aged 22. The picture in question shows a young woman dressed in traditional ''Arlésienne'' costume, standing in front of a church portal. Checking the origin of this picture, [[:File:JeanneCalmentaged22.jpg]], I noticed that it was sourced to the GRG gallery, with author unknown. The uploader was the respected {{u|Dr. Blofeld}} in 2008. Looking in turn at [http://www.grg.org/JCalmentGallery.htm the GRG gallery], I noticed that the picture was labeled "Daughter Yvonne". Wait, how can this be? Aha, GRG just changed the label: the archived version of [https://web.archive.org/web/20180819092406/http://www.grg.org/JCalmentGallery.htm 19 August 2018] still says "At age ~22", and the next snapshot on [https://web.archive.org/web/20181123215021/http://www.grg.org/JCalmentGallery.htm 23 November] says "Daughter Yvonne".

The Medium article exhibits a copy of this picture as excerpted from a biography in French, ''"Jeanne: la passion de vivre"'' (1995,[https://www.amazon.com/Jeanne-Calment-passion-vivre-Documents/dp/2268019381/ref=sr_1_1] reprinted 1998[https://www.abebooks.co.uk/9782268019383/Jeanne-Calment-passion-vivre-Gabriel-2268019381/plp]), where two pictures on the same page are clearly labeled "up: Jeanne Calment dressed as an ''Arlésienne''", "down: Yvonne, Jeanne Calment's daughter".[https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/720/1*4Bpj5aMiObSDreHhSqrQyQ.png] Sometime, somebody somewhere at GRG conflated the bottom picture with a picture of Jeanne, and here we are correcting the record after many years.

To avoid obfuscating the issue for readers who may come here after having read the Medium piece, I would suggest labeling the picture thus: {{tq|Photograph of Yvonne Calment (date unknown), mistakenly labeled for several years as Jeanne aged 22.}} Comments welcome. If any of our fellow editors has a physical copy of the 1995 book, we should use it to re-scan the page and cite it with proper attribution. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 14:27, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
:I made a first edit to correct the record.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeanne_Calment&diff=873330955&oldid=873274130] Feel free to improve. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 14:47, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
::I'm sorry but I undid your edit here as the source is not reliable. [[Medium (website)|Medium]] is a website that anyone can join to publish writings and documents. The author "Yuri Deigin" simply states that he is an editor over at [https://medium.com/open-longevity-eng Open Longevity] (English and Russian sites). The question would then be is [https://medium.com/open-longevity-eng/about this] a reliable website? - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 17:41, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
:::Medium is just a publishing platform like any other. The author provides a [https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*4Bpj5aMiObSDreHhSqrQyQ.png scanned page] from Jeanne's [https://www.abebooks.co.uk/9782268019383/Jeanne-Calment-passion-vivre-Gabriel-2268019381/plp biography] that clearly attributes the photo in question to her daughter Yvonne. Is Jeanne's biography a reliable enough source for you? --[[User:TrueGentleman99|TrueGentleman99]] ([[User talk:TrueGentleman99|talk]]) 10:12, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
::::Yes the published biography book is good enough for me. The image has been mislabeled for years. This is an important piece for understanding the subject and her daughter (or is the subject the daughter). I've undone the series of edits that removed the image and questioned the source. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 10:29, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::I agree both that a better source is needed and that hiding the image was excessive. The biography titled ''Jeanne: la passion de vivre'' is probably good enough, and JFG did already suggest we cite it directly, rather than citing a secondary source that draws upon it. However, contrary to what Legacypac asserted in his edit summary, the work is not an autobiography. It is credited to "Gabriel Simonoff, with a preface by [[Igor and Grichka Bogdanoff]]". [[User:Citizen Canine|Citizen Canine]] ([[User talk:Citizen Canine|talk]]) 14:25, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::I stupidly typed "auto", realized it right away, but can't change the edit summary. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 21:29, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
:::This attributes nothing as he is comparing two pictures. The author is not vetted in the field by any third party, [[WP:INDY|provide a third party source]] on the matter and you have a better case. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 00:33, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
::::The book it is scanned from is a third party source - you reverted me even though you have no support in this discussion. The benefit of the linked source is anyone can easily see the scanned page with a click while the underlying book is hard to obtain. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 00:42, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::Please provide a backup source on how the author reached his conclusion.... Deigin used a book he scanned from a third party source yes... but this still doesn't tell how Yuri Deigin is vetted. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 00:47, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::Vetting of that source is not relevant we know that the photo isa of the daughter. The book shows it and here is another source http://www.grg.org/JCalmentGallery.htm [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 00:53, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::Okay with that source, why don't you restore the picture with the caption "Daughter Yvonne"? The bit about that picture being "long misidentified as showing Jeanne at 22 years old" is a conclusion reached by that questionable source. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 00:57, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::So you accept that it is verifiably a picture of Yvonne. Then it follows that it was "long misidentified as showing Jeanne at 22 years old", given that it was so labeled both here on Wikipedia from its inclusion until a few days ago, and by the GRG. That's hardly [[WP:SYNTHESIS|improper synthesis]]. [[User:Citizen Canine|Citizen Canine]] ([[User talk:Citizen Canine|talk]]) 10:18, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::No it doesn't follow that....you are adding that narrative in based on the biased source. The GNG source simply says "daughter Yvonne", it says nothing about the picture being "long misidentified". - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 14:34, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::Wikipedia editing history of the picture and caption, both sourced to GRG, proves that the picture was long mislabeled. Of course it's hard to convey this information without quoting the article that first raised attention about this serious editorial mistake. No inference is made in our text about which of the two young women pictured most looks like the old woman who died in 1997; we should just document the proper labeling of Yvonne's picture, which can be adequately cited to the Simonoff biography first published in 1995. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 15:11, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::GRG source that you cite has itself been mislabeling the photo in question as ''"Jeanne at age ~22"'': as far back as [https://web.archive.org/web/20070312094005/http://www.grg.org:80/JCalmentGallery.htm 2007] and as recently as [https://web.archive.org/web/20180819092406/http://www.grg.org/JCalmentGallery.htm October 2018]. So "long misidentified as showing Jeanne at 22 years old" is factually correct. This information should be reinstated in the article. [[User:TrueGentleman99|TrueGentleman99]] ([[User talk:TrueGentleman99|talk]]) 02:43, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

== Fashion interlude ==
[[File:JeanneCalmentaged22.jpg|thumb|upright=0.8|Charwoman?]]
{{stack|[[File:A charwoman who cleans buses sweeping the floor of a bus 8d32921v.jpg|thumb|upright=1.2|Charwoman]]}}
Why, in the picture, is Yvonne dressed as a charwoman? I thought they had money. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 03:59, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

:[https://medium.com/@yurideigin/jaccuse-why-122-year-longevity-record-may-be-fake-af87fc0c3133] Explains how this photo helps prove there was a switch. It's a dress up event that only makes sense if the daughter is pictured. Also comparing the photo of the daughter to the mother it sure looks like the daughter is the same woman who was supposed to live to 122. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 04:07, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
::You seem to have missed the joke. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 04:08, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
:::Indeed and I still don't get it. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 04:10, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
::::Just that this is apparently some traditional festive outfit, but every time I saw it over the years I thought, "Well, I guess she's dressed for doing the spring cleaning, scrubbing the floors, and so on." [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 05:08, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::I have now added this info to the [[w:fr:Jeanne Calment|French version of this article]]. Interestingly the issue was already raised on the [[fr:Discussion:Jeanne Calment#Véracité ? Voici une hypothèse ... qui semble mériter une enquête approfondie|talk page there]] over 2 years ago by [[fr:Utilisateur:Hbourj|User:Hbourj]]. [[User:Citizen Canine|Citizen Canine]] ([[User talk:Citizen Canine|talk]]) 14:39, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::The French Wikipedia discusses the issue of Yvonne being dressed as a charwoman? Wow, those French are ''really'' fashion-conscious! [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 16:15, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::No, sorry I got confused as there are two sections here with the same title. I meant a French user forwarded this same fraud hypothesis back in 2016, when it was dismissed as original research as he didn't cite any secondary sources. Just saying it's curious. The French Wikipedia has that same image of Yvonne, which was mistakenly labeled as Jeanne until I corrected it yesterday. And yes, I get that you're being tongue-in-cheek. [[User:Citizen Canine|Citizen Canine]] ([[User talk:Citizen Canine|talk]]) 16:39, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::My tongue's so firmly in cheek that surgical removal has been recommended. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 02:47, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
*The fact that you are joking about this woman when she could have living family members out there is distasteful at the best. None of this has so far been proven true so I have no idea why we as editors here are making our own conclusions by comparing pictures. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 17:58, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
::Oh, please, get a grip. And if you knew anything at all about the subject, you'd know she definitively has no living relatives, as if that mattered. I have nothing to do with any comparing of pictures except for this stress-relieving interlude on an irrelevant point. And I've been the one explaining (in another thread on this page) that it's not our job to make comparisons to decide who's who in the pictures. On the other hand, something doesn't have to be "proven true" for us to report it as a hypothesis. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 18:05, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

== Searching for the picture of Jeanne and Yvonne Calment together in 1925 ==

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion:Jeanne_Calment#V%C3%A9racit%C3%A9_?_Voici_une_hypoth%C3%A8se_..._qui_semble_m%C3%A9riter_une_enqu%C3%AAte_approfondie

''"Une photo de Jeanne Calment avec sa mère, vers 1925 avait été publiée. On ne le trouve pas sur internet. Sur cette photo, la personne de gauche ressemblait à la première photo, c'était une femme de 50 ans, solide, aux grands yeux, la vraie Jeanne Calment. A sa droite, Yvonne Calment, environ 27 ans, brune, mince, plus petite que sa mère, les yeux bien enfoncés dans les orbites, cernés. Et Sans aucun doute la "Jeanne" Calment que nous avons connue ressemblait à la seconde."''

'''Translation:''' A photo of Jeanne Calment with her mother, around 1925 had been published. We do not find it on the internet. In this picture, the person on the left looked like the first picture, it was a woman of 50 years, solid, with big eyes, the real Jeanne Calment. On his right, Yvonne Calment, about 27 years old, dark, slender, smaller than his mother, eyes deep in the orbits, surrounded. And without a doubt the "Jeanne" Calment we knew was like the second.

''"La photo que vous reliez n'est pas celle que j'ai vu, mais elle y ressemble. "''
'''Translation:''' The photo you are connecting is not the one I saw, but it looks like it.

In Jeanne Calment's French page, a French Wikipedia user (hbourj) mentioned and described about a picture of Jeanne with her daughter which is not available on the Internet. Hbourj also said that it is not really the one on the Internet although it looks liked it. Does anyone have it? What's the source? Is it from a book/article/etc.? Can someone scan/take a picture of it and upload it to the Internet (imgur.com)? I'm curious to know what it looks like according to his description about the facial characteristics. I think it would be interesting to see the picture to understand his explanation regrading facial characteristics differences and will help in providing more clues to the current fraud hypothesis being carried out.

I tried to contact hbourj by emailing and leaving a message on his user discussion page and haven't receive any reply yet. Hopefully I can get some answers here just in case he is inactive.

Or is it this one? If yes, can anyone provide the full image? This was from the investigation research slideshow.
https://imgur.com/a/I8eV4rO --[[User:YHL532|YHL532]] ([[User talk:YHL532|talk]]) 15:14, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
:Hi [[User:YHL532|YHL532]]. I think the image hbourj is referring to is [https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*VBI9NRmZ58XcZXif_6cgzw.png this one]. It is unfortunately the only such image which has survived to the destruction of the family records on "Jeanne"'s orders. It is included in the Medium article [https://medium.com/@yurideigin/jaccuse-why-122-year-longevity-record-may-be-fake-af87fc0c3133]. [[User:Citizen Canine|Citizen Canine]] ([[User talk:Citizen Canine|talk]]) 15:23, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Then why did hbourj say that is not the one he is referring to when another Wikipedia user asked him? He said it's not the one he saw but looks similar to it. Anyone thinks there's some other photo not available online? Did "Jeanne" order to destroy the family records too? I thought "Jeanne" only ordered to burn photos.

Une photographie de Jeanne avec sa fille est disponible sur internet [2] (s'agit-il de celle-ci ?).
'''Translation:''' A photograph of Jeanne with her daughter is available on the internet [2] (is it this one?).

''"La photo que vous reliez n'est pas celle que j'ai vu, mais elle y ressemble. "''
'''Translation:''' The photo you are connecting is not the one I saw, but it looks like it. --[[User:YHL532|YHL532]] ([[User talk:YHL532|talk]]) 15:50, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
:I don't know. He didn't say where he saw the original photo. It could be he somehow has privileged access to it. More likely though it is in one of the print sources and simply hasn't been made available online, at least not anywhere that's highly visible. [[User:Citizen Canine|Citizen Canine]] ([[User talk:Citizen Canine|talk]]) 15:58, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

*Several places I've read that the old lady had family records destroyed. Very strange behaviour for someone with nothing to hide. The height and eye color are another smoking gun. I'm not convinced eye color fades and changes with age, or that some women don't get shorter with extreme age. At some point we will need to decide when the weight of evidence on one side outweighs the weight of evidence on older sources. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 16:51, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
*No, ''we'' won't decide when the weight of the evidence on one side outweighs [etc etc]. We will wait to see what new reliable sources say, and it will be a long time before they take a definite stand. In the meantime, we can only report this as (at first) a new hypothesis, then (maybe for an intermediate period) as a controversy, and then (eventually) as a decided point one way or another. But that last stage will likely (and I'm not kidding about this) only come 10 to 20 years from now, because that's how long it takes for considered published opinion to become settled on something like this.
:For a very similar situation that took about 18 years to resolve, see [[Talk:Eubie_Blake#Blake's_Correct_Birth_Year_-_1883_-_is_Provided_by_Blake_Himself_on_%22The_Tonight_Show_with_Johnny_Carson%22]]. In brief, for much of his life pioneering jazzist Eubie Blake said he was born in 1883; he died in 1983 at "100 years old". About 2000 evidence began to emerge that he had actually been born in 1887, and this evidence became stronger over the next few years. But it took a further ten years for authoritative sources to publish new papers, issue revised editions, and so on so that we (Wikipedia) could simply state the 1887 date as fact, not controversy. That's probably the kind of time it will take in this case as well{{snd}}though at this point we don't know in which direction the chips will eventually fall, of course. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 18:00, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

::It should not take 18 years to solve this. Age was not the defining characteristic in the Blake case where here it is the only part of her life that is notable. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 18:19, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
:::You're right, it shouldn't take 18 years, but it may very well. We can't control how fast sources get to work on this. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 06:06, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

==Fringe Theory==

I have opened up a discussion at [[Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Jeanne Calment]] on the Fringe Theory noticeboard. The lack of third party sourcing is an issue. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 16:21, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

*The post is based on attacking one of the sources, claiming it is the only source. Please read the rest of the threads on this page before starting at fringe theories with a false premise. The source you attacked is not even the first source - we have a presentation in Russian, an insurance book, and the source discussed at [[hTalk:Jeanne_Calment#Jeanne_vs_Yvonne]] which was the first article to come to Wikipedia attention. If anything is fringe it is that Clement lived 122+ years, so much longer than anyone else on record.

::1. https://www.leafscience.org/valery-novoselov-investigating-jeanne-calments-longevity-record/
::2. “L’assurance et ses secrets” (Insurance and its secrets) by Jean-Pierre Daniel a book published in 2007.
:::“Chacun se souvient de Jeanne Calment officiellement morte à 122 ans, le 4 août 1997, Il avait été dit à l’époque que cette dame bénéficiait d’une rente viagère, ce qui etait vrai. Celle-ci etait versée par une grande société française que cette longévité exceptionelle ne réjouissait pas. La société était d’autant plus marrie qu’elle savait pertinemment qu’elle ne payait pas Jeanne Calment, mais sa fille. En effect, au décès de la vraie Jeanne Calment, sa fille qui évidemment n’était plus une gamine, avait endossé l’identité de sa mère pour continuer à toucher la rente. La société d’assurance avait découvert l’usurpation d’identité, mais en accord – ou à la demande ? – des pouvoirs publics, elle n’avait pas souhaité la dénoncer tant le personnage de la “doyenne des Français” était devenu mythique.” translated to
:::“Everyone remembers Jeanne Calment, who has officially died at age 122 on August 4, 1997. It was said at the time that this lady had benefited from having a life annuity, which was true. This was paid by a large French company that was not happy at all with this exceptional longevity. The company was even more upset as it knew that it had been paying not Jeanne Calment, but her daughter. In reality, after the death of the real Jeanne Calment, her daughter who obviously was no longer a child, had taken her mother’s identity to keep receiving the annuity. The insurance company had discovered identity theft, but in agreement with – or on the demand of? – the public authorities, it had not wished to reveal the truth, given how much the character of the “grandmother of the French” had become legendary.”

::3. Medium article [https://medium.com/@yurideigin/jaccuse-why-122-year-longevity-record-may-be-fake-af87fc0c3133]
::4. The presentation in Russian from the researcher and the statistician

:Also look at the graph here: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-the-oldest-person-in-the-world-keeps-dying/ [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 19:01, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

*The idea that this is FRINGE is ridiculous. It's a perfectly sensible hypothesis. Give it up. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 19:52, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
Legacypac, I think in fact there are 5 sources, not 4. The mathematician had released the research paper here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329773795_Jeanne_Calment_the_secret_of_longevity
This is also a source, right? You missed out this one. [[User:YHL532|YHL532]] ([[User talk:YHL532|talk]]) 01:44, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

*I've left an edit warring caution for Knowledgekid87. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Knowledgekid87#Don't_edit_war] since they insist on modifying the agreed to caption on the Yvonne photo. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 20:48, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
*:It has been 2 reverts, and there was no decided upon caption for the picture. This was already discussed at [[Talk:Jeanne Calment#Picture of Yvonne]]. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 20:51, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
*::Do I have to turn the hose on you two? (For the record Kk87, it can still be edit warring even if you don't pass 3RR.) I hope my recent edits are satisfactory to everyone; I wouldn't want anyone's longevity cut short by violence. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 21:36, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

=== Edit Warring ===
{{atop|result=Time for everybody to move on. Merry Christmas and God bless us, everyone. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 17:37, 25 December 2018 (UTC)}}
{{Caution|Some of the recent editing has come very close to the line. Please tread carefully. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 01:46, 25 December 2018 (UTC)}}
*I'm a bit tired of drive-by warnings prompted by [[User:Thomas.W|uninvolved, uninformed buttinskis]] who push the panic button [https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=875243191] without knowing what's going on. I received thanks from all three other editors involved [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?user=Gap9551&wpdate=2018-12-25&wpfilters%5B%5D=thanks] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?user=Knowledgekid87&wpdate=2018-12-25&wpfilters%5B%5D=thanks] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?user=Legacypac&wpdate=2018-12-25&tagfilter=&wpfilters%5B%5D=thanks] and everyone's perfectly happy -- see [https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=875252346]. Where participants in a series of edits are all experienced editors, an <s>editwarring report</s> <u>request for page protection</u> should come from one or more of ''them'' -- people ''actually involved'' who ''understand what's going on'' -- to avoid wastes of time like this. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 02:43, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
::{{ping|EEng}} Experienced editors who have served multiple blocks for edit-warring ought to know what an '''edit-warring report''' is, and isn't. No one has filed an edit-warring report, all that was done was requesting temporary full protection at RFPP to help the experienced editors stay out of harm's way, and not get themselves blocked, again. -&nbsp;'''Tom'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User:Thomas.W|Thomas.W]] [[User talk:Thomas.W|'''''<sup><small> talk</small></sup>''''']] 07:21, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
:::Sorry, RPP not 3RR report{{snd}}the point's the same; you're not helping yourself here. I get the block log thing so frequently from your type that I have a bit of a canned response for it: You obviously missed the userbox at the top of my user page...
<div style="float:{{{float|left}}}; border:{{{border-width|1}}}px solid {{{border-color|{{{1|#1414ee}}}}}}; margin:1px;">
{| cellspacing="0" style="width:238px; background:{{{info-background|{{{2|skyblue}}}}}};"
| style="width:45px; height:45px; background:{{{logo-background|{{{1|#3333ff}}}}}}; text-align:center;" | '''{{{logo|[[Image:Octagon-warning.svg|25px]]}}}'''
| style="font-size:{{{info-size|8}}}pt; padding:4pt; line-height:1.25em; color:{{{info-color|#000}}};" | This user has been blocked several times, and [https://en.wikipedia.org/?oldid=713242449#.22Hands-down_the_worst_block_I.27ve_seen_in_my_time_on_Wikipedia.2C_and_I.27ve_seen_some_whoppers.22 isn't embarrassed about it] - (admire my '''<span class="plainlinks">[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:EEng block&nbsp;log&nbsp;here!]</span>''').
|}</div>{{clearleft}}
:::... not to mention such threads as [https://en.wikipedia.org/?oldid=713242449#.22Hands-down_the_worst_block_I.27ve_seen_in_my_time_on_Wikipedia.2C_and_I.27ve_seen_some_whoppers.22 "Hands-down the worst block I've seen in my time on Wikipedia, and I've seen some whoppers"], this comment from a wise and respected arb [https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=774161253] and so on. I leave all my blocks on my user and talk pages so all may judge for themselves.
:::There was a dispute between two editors (not me) over an UNDUE tag, but then I stepped in and made a series of edits that satisfied everyone, and on which the others built. You'd know that if you took the trouble to review the diffs. Next time, either take the time or don't butt in. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 08:19, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
::::It's obvious that you not only don't know what an edit-warring report is, but also don't know what edit-warring is (hint: ''{{tq|"An editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page—whether involving the same or different material—within a 24-hour period. An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert."}}''). You made four reverts (by the definition in the quote) in less than 24h, and thus violated 3RR, so you owe me a thanks for helping you avoid a block that you might have had problems squirming out of... -&nbsp;'''Tom'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User:Thomas.W|Thomas.W]] [[User talk:Thomas.W|'''''<sup><small> talk</small></sup>''''']] 08:51, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::(ec) Tom, go have a Merry Christmas that does not involve insulting the intelligence or editing skills of EEng [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 09:38, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::<rolls eyes> You're making a fool of yourself. When the other editors involved all thank you for your edits, then build on those edits by making additions and adjustments of their own, it's not editwarring. Please, in future leave the evaluation of article editing patterns to those who actually edit articles. You seem determined to find trouble where there's none. You probably should also read [[WP:Reverting]] to gain a more nuanced idea of what a revert is. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 09:35, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::Sheesh. I know what counts as a revert per 3RR, which is what matters, but thanks for showing me that you're a person of many talents, not only making totally obnoxious "joke" edits on notice boards, and edit-warring to keep them there, even in archives, but also acting as a total jerk against other editors on article talk pages... <small><plonk></small> -&nbsp;'''Tom'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User:Thomas.W|Thomas.W]] [[User talk:Thomas.W|'''''<sup><small> talk</small></sup>''''']] 10:08, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::Temper, temper! [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 16:05, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::This has always been a contentious topic area. No need to drag unrelated issues into make it worse, there's nothing here that can't be worked out. It never ceases to amaze me how this subject manages to do this to people. [[User:The Blade of the Northern Lights|The Blade of the Northern Lights]] ([[User talk:The Blade of the Northern Lights#top|<span style="font-family: MS Mincho; color: black;">話して下さい</span>]]) 16:56, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
[[User:Thomas.W|Thomas.W]]
{{abot}}

== Better video re van Gogh ==

Can someone who understands that language spoken by French people in France tell us if this [https://www.ina.fr/video/CAB89003100] video has the her unflattering comments on van Gogh? If so we should use it in the article instead of the youtube link there now. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 03:10, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
: In the video, she describes van Gogh as ugly, alcoholic and how meeting him turned out to be a big disappointment. No mention of visiting brothels though. --[[User:McSly|McSly]] ([[User talk:McSly|talk]]) 03:48, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
::Thanks! So, is this a different interview from the one in the Youtube vid now linked in the article? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 05:32, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
:::Yep, different interviews done a few years apart (1989 for INA and 1994 for the one on Youtube). --[[User:McSly|McSly]] ([[User talk:McSly|talk]]) 14:33, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
::::OK, I've made this edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=875324927]; turns out this vid was already used in the article. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 16:18, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
In the INA interview of 1989, Calment says that her ''husband'' introduced her to Van Gogh, which is totally absurd, as she was 12 or 13 when allegedly meeting him in 1888. The narrator also states that Jeanne's "father and husband" sold material to Van Gogh. However Jeanne's father had nothing to do with the family store: it belonged to her uncle. Conversely, Yvonne's father, was indeed coming from the branch of the family that owned the store. So, in the Yvonne hypothesis, we have an old lady re-telling and possibly embellishing a tale from her actual father, who was in fact Jeanne's husband. (He may indeed have sold stuff to the artist, because he was 20 in 1888.) In the "old Jeanne" hypothesis, we have an even older lady vividly remembering the scene where her "husband" introduces her to Van Gogh ({{tq|So my husband told him: "Mr Van Gogh, let me introduce you to my wife." I said "That's Van Gogh?" He didn't move from his canvas.}}) when she was still a teenager, eight years before she got married. Yvonne's story is at least plausible, Jeanne's story makes absolutely no sense. Yeah, some age validation there! {{shrug}} — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 22:37, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
:This all amounts to [[WP:OR|original research]] and discredits the dozens of studies done on the matter. For now this all amounts to an unproven hypothesis as there are no mainstream sources covering any of this. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 23:55, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
::Absolutely, and we do present the Yvonne story as just that, a hypothesis. Allow me some communication with other interested editors on the talk page, as I happen to speak French and could understand what was said in the cited video. I do not suggest to add any of this to the article. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 02:11, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
:::Let's skip any discussion of how these interviews interact with the validity of the longevity claim, the impostor hypothesis, etc. But we can certainly present the subject's own words. If the relevant segments aren't too long, would it be asking too much to request a verbatim transcript from both vids? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 02:17, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

::::The INA source is interspersed with "funny" commentary by the reporter ad-libbing about his childhood and the will to die; I don't think a full transcript would be very useful. I can try and cite relevant passages from the lady's utterances, though. Her tone of voice is quite interesting, especially when she makes a show of despising Van Gogh, but we can't convey ''that'' without delving into [[WP:OR]]. Just watched the 1994 video as well: she says that she met Van Gogh towards the "very end of his life" (that would be 1890), she repeats that he bought canvas from her '''husband''', and she states that Van Gogh was "well known in the city", "not in good shape", "burned by alcohol", and went to brothels "not for women, but to drink". Personal note: how would a 13-year-old girl be aware of all this gossip? Never mind that she wouldn't marry until she turned 21 and the painter was long dead. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 03:03, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::OK, verbatim interspersed with ... [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 03:05, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::This [https://medium.com/@yurideigin/more-evidence-for-jeanne-calments-identity-theft-hypothesis-26f7cece0cd2 article] also points out inconsistencies in Jeanne Calment's Van Gogh story. It quotes a French [https://www.parismatch.com/Actu/Societe/Ete-88-Jeanne-Calment-la-mamie-du-monde-1566969 interview] that has not been previously sourced on Wikipedia. [[User:TrueGentleman99|TrueGentleman99]] ([[User talk:TrueGentleman99|talk]]) 04:23, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks. A quick glance at the ''[[Paris Match]]'' interview from 1988 reveals the following discrepancies:
:::::::* She says she had brown hair and green eyes, but her ID card from the 1930s specifies black hair and black eyes.
:::::::* Claims they had an automobile, putatively a Peugeot, ''dès le début de mon mariage'' (from the start of my marriage). Given that Jeanne married in 1896 and Peugeot [[Peugeot#Early history|built about 100 cars that year]] for a French population of [[Demographics of France#1800 to 20th century|roughly 40 million people]], her husband would have been quite an exceptional man, probably the first in his town, and one of the very first in [[Provence]], to buy a car.
:::::::* Claims that she took her ''baptême de l'air'' at age 40, i.e. in 1915. That would have been the middle of World War I, and it's quite doubtful that any aviator would take a tourist lady up for a spin on a [[biplane]]. Much more plausible for Yvonne in 1938, when commercial aviation had become viable.
:::::::* The Van Gogh story is more realistic there: she says she was not yet married when he came to the store to buy canvas. Still calls him ugly, and says he scared children.
:::::::* She says she attended the inauguration of [[Museon Arlaten|the Arles museum]] with [[Frédéric Mistral]] when she was "just married". That happened in 1899, three years after her wedding, and one year after her baby girl was born. Hmm, no spontaneous mention of the baby in that context?
:::::::* She says Yvonne died of [[pleurisy]], whereas our article says she died of [[pneumonia]]. Need to double-check sources on that detail.
:::::::Nothing very conclusive one way or another: people can mis-remember dates or mix up stories. However it's hard to explain how she could be wrong about her own hair and eye color! — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 05:50, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

The videos of her talking about Van Gogh are a primary source for other reporting we use. We SHOULD evaluate questionable sources against other sources and try to verify against known facts. Her own words, when tested against a known facts outside her control like Van Gogh's death date, reveal what can only be a lie. Why did the experts who used the Van Gogh story not pick up on the absurdity of her claim? It makes the whole "modern standards of age verification" process pretty suspect. Sorry but an obvious lie is an obvious lie - but the superold fan club is blind to facts that they don't like. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 03:29, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

:Then take it to [[WP:RSN]]. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 03:34, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

:It was generally assumed that she was exaggerating the Van Gogh story (it was known to have grown over the years).[[User:Geni|©Geni]] ([[User talk:Geni|talk]]) 00:45, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

We have a number of experienced editors here fully capable of assessing sources. If you have an issue with a source amd need some outside assestence go get it. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 03:57, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

=== Video transcripts ===
; 1989 interview
Difficult to parse because the sound is bad, Calment's voice is sometimes muffled, and the journalist's questions have been edited out, and interspersed with his musings on childhood and aging. Accordingly, I'll transcribe Calment's words ''verbatim'', and only paraphrase the reporter's questions. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 04:58, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
{{talkquote|
Jean Teulé, reporter: Jeanne Calment is 114 years old. She is the oldest woman in the world, and the last human alive to have seen Van Gogh. Wasn't he kind of a bad guy, Van Gogh?<br/>
Jeanne Calment: ''C'était un alcoolique fieffé.'' He was an utter alcoholic.<br/>
Teulé: Her father and her husband sold canvas and paintbrushes to Van Gogh. One day her husband endeavoured to introduce her to the artist. Madame Calment was not impressed at all.<br/>
Calment: ''Alors mon mari lui dit "Monsieur Van Gogh, je vous présente ma femme."'' Then my husband told him "Mr. Van Gogh, this is my wife." ''J'ai dit "C'est ça, Van Gogh?"'' I said "That's it, Van Gogh?" ''Van Gogh, il tenait les toiles, vous m'entendez? Il a pas quitté ses toiles. Il était assis, il tripotait ses toiles, il se retourne et me regarde.'' Van Gogh, he was holding the canvas, can you hear me? He did not leave his canvas. He was sitting, he was twiddling with his canvas, he turns around and looks at me. (moves head up and down) ''Il me toise, mmh-beuh, et dit ça va ça va.'' He stares me down, mmh-bah, and says OK, OK.<br/>
(cut)<br/>
Calment: ''J'ai dit "C'est ça Van Gogh?" Quelle déception! Laid! Une laide figure, et le bonnet jusque là.'' I said "That's it, Van Gogh?" What a letdown! Ugly! An unsightly face, and a cap down to here. (shows her eyebrows) ''Mon Dieu, qu'il était laid!'' God he was so ugly!<br/>
Teulé: And two years later he committed suicide, because he was tired of living. Unlike you. It seems you enjoy it?<br/>
Calment: ''Oui, de bien vivre, oui. Je suis pas malade. Je n'ai aucune maladie.'' Yes, living well, yes. I'm not sick. I have no sickness at all. ''Mon organisme n'a encore pas bougé. Vous m'entendez ?'' My body has not moved yet. You hear me?<br/>
Teulé: Yeah, yeah. When was the last time a man told you "I love you"?<br/>
Calment: ''Comment vous voulez que je me rappelle de ça ?'' How am I supposed to remember this? ''À cent ans près…'' Within a hundred years…<br/>
Teulé: The guy who bought your house ''via'' life estate when you were 90 must be pissed.<br/>
Calment: ''Oui. Il trouve que je vis trop. Je me fais désirer. Alors chaque année je m'excuse: "Excusez moi, je suis encore là.'' Yes. He thinks I live too much. I make myself desired. So each year I apologize: "Excuse me, I'm still here." <br/>
(cut)<br/>
Calment: ''Je suis en compétition avec Mathusalem. Vous connaissez Mathusalem ?'' I'm in a competition with Methuselah. You know Methuselah?<br/>
Teulé: Yeah, yeah.<br/>
Calment: ''Eh bien je suis en compétition avec lui. Je suis gourmande.'' Well, I'm competing with him. I'm greedy. (laughs)
}}

; 1994 interview
Much clearer sound. Mostly uncut footage of a doctor asking her precise questions, and her direct answers. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 04:58, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
{{talkquote|
Doctor: ''Vous avez connu Van Gogh ?'' You have known Van Gogh?<br/>
Calment: ''Oui.'' Yes.<br/>
Doctor: ''Racontez nous comment vous l'avez connu.'' Tell us how you knew him.<br/>
Calment: ''Je l'ai connu à la fin de ses jours. Tout à fait à la fin. Il était laid. Il était brûlé par l'alcool.'' I knew him towards his last days. Quite at the end. He was ugly. He was burnt by alcohol.<br/>
Doctor: ''Où est-ce que vous l'avez connu ?'' Where did you know him?<br/>
Calment: ''C'est à dire, il venait au magasin. Il peignait encore un peu. Il venait chercher des toiles. Alors mon mari servait des toiles, pour peindre.'' Well, he used to come to the store. He still painted a little. He came to pick up canvas. So my husband served him canvas, to paint.<br/>
Doctor: ''Et c'est Van Gogh qui les choisissait ?'' And was it Van Gogh who picked them?<br/>
Calment: ''Ah oui, il les touchait. C'est pas mon mari; mon mari il y entendait rien, lui. C'est lui qui les choisissait. Il les palpait… Mais les derniers temps, c'était plus ça.'' Oh yes, he touched them. It wasn't my husband; my husband he didn't understand anything about that. He picked them himself. He fiddled with them… But towards the end, it wasn't going well.<br/>
Doctor: ''À l'époque, il était connu Van Gogh, en ville ?'' At that time, was he well known, Van Gogh, in town?<br/>
Calment: ''Oui. Il fréquentait les maisons de tolérance. Pas pour les femmes, comme pour les maîtresses qu'il payait trop cher. Il donnait de l'argent pour boire.'' Yes. He visited the brothels. Not for the women, like for mistresses that he paid too much. He gave money to drink.<br/>
(cut)<br/>
Doctor: ''Vos études ont duré jusqu'à quel âge ?'' Until what age did you study?<br/>
Calment: ''Jusqu'à l'âge du brevet. Du brevet. Le brevet classique.'' Until the age of the ''brevet'' (O-Level). The ''brevet''. The classical one.<br/>
Doctor: ''Ensuite, qu'est-ce que vous faisiez ?'' And then what did you do?<br/>
Calment: ''Après, je suis restée avec mes parents, j'ai attendu le mariage. Pendant ce temps, je faisais de la peinture, je fortifiais mon piano, les arts décoratifs.'' Then I stayed with my parents, waiting for marriage. Meanwhile, I was painting, I improved my piano, decorative arts.<br/>
Doctor: ''Qu'est-ce que vous aviez fait comme peinture ?'' What kind of painting did you do?<br/>
Calment: ''Un panneau, un paravent avec cinq branches. Chaque branche avait une grande gerbe de fleurs.'' A panel, a screen with five branches. Each branch had a large wreath of flowers.<br/>
Doctor: ''Vous vous rappelez les fleurs que vous aviez peintes ?'' Do you remember the flowers you painted?<br/>
Calment: ''Oui: des roses, des iris, des anémones, des soleils.'' Yes: roses, iris, anemones, sunflowers.<br/>
(cut)<br/>
Nurse: ''On y va.'' Let's go.<br/>
Calment: ''Allez allez. Allons-y, gaiement.'' Go, go. Let's go, merrily.<br/>
Nurse: ''Gaiement, je sais pas, mais on y va.'' (laughs) Merrily, I'm not sure, but we're going.<br/>
Calment: ''En avant, marche !'' Forward, march!<br/>
}}

*WOW! Great work! And to be clear, the 1989 vid is http://boutique.ina.fr/video/CAB89003100/jeanne-calment-114-and-a-rencontre-van-gogh.fr.html (which would seem to not have a copyright problem) and the 1994 is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB_yIlnaryg which we has no apparent copyright status (so we probably can't link to it). Or is there any chance you found the 1994 vid somewhere else? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 06:08, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
::Did not look for other sources for the 1994 interview. The video comes from a [[France 3]] regional TV program. I believe we can link to it, and credit it to France 3. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 08:39, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

== "Fraud hypothesis" sub-heading ==
Knowledgekid87 please stop these kinds of edits [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeanne_Calment&diff=prev&oldid=875631951]. Not helpful. There are not dozens of studies confirming this ladies extreme age. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 02:28, 28 December 2018 (UTC)


== A couple of factual errors ==
::The Van Gogh story was used to "prove" her extreme age but part of proving extreme age is checking the reasonableness of the timing of life events and memories. The Van Gogh story falls apart when you run the math and fact check against who ran the store. Stories that don't make sense tend to be lies. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 03:11, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
"At the outbreak of World War I, her husband Fernand, who was 46, was deemed too old to serve in the military." In fact he was under 46 and his military record which is available online from Arles archives show that he was indeed mobilised. The cited source is wrong.


"In 1994, the city of Arles inquired about Calment's personal documents, in order to contribute to the city archives. However, reportedly on Calment's instructions, her documents and family photographs were selectively burned by a distant family member" The destruction of her archives was already reported in the 1988 Paris Match interview referenced, so it was not connected to any 1994 inquiry. I realise the statement does not say directly that it was but it has been interpreted that way.
:::Again this is more [[WP:OR]], look at the sources throughout the article that has her as 122, are we to discredit every single one of those? Your edits are unhelpful as you are trying to make this hypothesis as fact. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 03:13, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
::::Do not confuse edits to the article and conversation on the talk page. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 03:17, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::The conversation here has provided no need for a header, this is about keeping with a [[WP:NPOV]]. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 03:19, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::<s>This thread is talking about two interviews of Jeanne Calment. If you'd like to discuss the "Fraud hypothesis" heading that you want to remove, please open a separate thread. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 03:24, 28 December 2018 (UTC)</s>
:::::::Then what the heck is {{reply|Legacypac}} talking about? [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeanne_Calment&diff=875653655&oldid=875653277] - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 03:25, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::OK, I see now that Legacypac started talking about something else. I have added a talk thread header accordingly. Now we can discuss the videos up there and the sub-heading down here. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 03:29, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::Fair enough....seeing that the record is being disputed the information should be combined with "Recognition and registration as record-breaker". I know readers who are interested with this hypothesis will have no problem finding it there and it would go with a [[WP:NPOV]] as the section provides both angles. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 03:31, 28 December 2018 (UTC)


I am not going to edit because I am not sure if these would count as OR. [[User:Weburbia|Weburbia]] ([[User talk:Weburbia|talk]]) 16:49, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::No, I prefer one section for the fraud theory and another for the verification. Make it easy to find. There is going to be no additional sources about her life or age "verification" - everything new is going to go in the new section until (maybe) enough evidence causes us to rewrite the page saying she was not 122. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 03:36, 28 December 2018 (UTC)


== Birthtime of Jeanne Louise Calment and her deathtime ==
:::::::::::Everything new? We aren't a [[WP:CRYSTAL|crystal ball]] the fact remains that this is a hypothesis and nothing more. Keeping it separate causes undue weight to the article as promoting this hypothesis as fact. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 03:38, 28 December 2018 (UTC)


Jeanne Louise Calment was born at 7:00 AM (06:00 GMT) on the Second Sunday of Lent, 21 February 1875, and died at 10:45 AM (08:45 GMT) on Monday, 4 August 1997, a Feast of Saint John Vianney. Birthtimes and deathtimes are important because the difference of timezones. The standard timezone of Wikipedia is GMT, not including DST.
::::::::::::Why? The section header and the content clearly state accurately what is the sources say. Those sources are as much fact as the ones that say she lived 122 years. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 03:47, 28 December 2018 (UTC)


[[Special:Contributions/189.69.67.106|189.69.67.106]] ([[User talk:189.69.67.106|talk]]) 18:01, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
You KnowledgeKid87 are continuing to edit against consensus. Revert please [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeanne_Calment&curid=325918&diff=875654017&oldid=875653655].
: I don't see how any of that is relevant. Please explain. --[[User:McSly|McSly]] ([[User talk:McSly|talk]]) 18:22, 8 October 2022 (UTC)


== Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2023 ==
Since whatever her name is died years ago she can't do more things to report. Therefore it is almost certain the only new info will be about problems with verification. That is not CRYSTAL it is common sense. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 03:45, 28 December 2018 (UTC)


{{edit semi-protected|Jeanne Calment|answered=yes}}
:What are you talking about? We are an encyclopedia here, this isn't a place to [[WP:NOTSOAPBOX|soapbox]]. If it's proven then okay, right now though we must present the information just as we would for any other article that has disputed info. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 03:48, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
:Im going to get some rest now, I will leave this for other editors to weigh in. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 03:54, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
Under ‘Oldest documented human’, at the end of the first paragraph in the final sentence (‘Calment…manners.’), change ‘van Gogh’ to ‘Van Gogh’. [[Special:Contributions/185.88.53.15|185.88.53.15]] ([[User talk:185.88.53.15|talk]]) 21:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
::The disputed tag is misleading. There is nothing disputed about the fact the sources for this section dispute the rest of the article content. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 03:58, 28 December 2018 (UTC)


:The name is Dutch and is normally lower case. Following the Wikipedia Manual of Style on personal names,[[MOS:PERSONAL]], the correct form is “van Gogh” and is always lower case. See also, https://www.britannica.com/biography/Vincent-van-Gogh &mdash;[[User:Danorton|Danorton]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Danorton|talk]]) 21:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
*The purpose of section headers is give the reader an overview of what's in the article, and prepare him/her for what's coming next (if reading top to bottom) or where to find something specific (if jumping in). The fraud hypothesis is separate and distinct from everything else in the article, and many readers will come looking for it; it's appropriate for it to have its own little section. (There's no minimum size for a section.) I would omit {{tq|This scenario would explain the statistically unlikely difference of several years between Calment's claimed age and the next dozens of oldest persons ever recorded}}{{snd}}readers not mentally defective will understand the implications of the hypothesis. The {{t|undue section}} banner is absurd, but if you want to draw additional attention to what should be a minor part of the article, it certainly does that job well. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 04:46, 28 December 2018 (UTC)


== Source on Jeanne Calment eating daube ==
::The quoted wording was my attempt to summarize the statistical portion of the one source. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 04:50, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
:::Yeah, but (not your fault) it doesn't do a very good job of it, and I don't think a good job can be done in one sentence, because one sentence can only state the obvious, and the reader doesn't need the obvious i.e. that the hypothesis quite neatly explains why the oldest person ever was so much older than anyone else, to wit, she wasn't. I really think we should drop the sentence. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 05:13, 28 December 2018 (UTC)


Pages 85–92 of Jeanne Calment: from Van Gogh's time to ours, 122 extraordinary years do not mention her enjoying daube. Which book, if any, contains this information? [[User:Noobnubcakes|Noobnubcakes]] ([[User talk:Noobnubcakes|talk]]) 19:45, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
::::The source covers two main thrusts - that documentry evidence suggests identity assumption and seperately that a study of math models suggests the claim is statistically extremely unlikely. Somehow we should hit both points. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 05:51, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::Legacypac is correct here. It's indeed trivial for readers to ascertain that a 99-year-old wouldn't be the oldest person, but it's not obvious that the age gap of several years with other recordholders is a gross statistical anomaly. Because the author of the hypothesis is a professional statistician, I believe it is DUE to mention that this hypothesis explains away the statistical issue. Certainly the sentence can be improved. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 06:11, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::It's very much a back-of-the-envelope calculation (with many potential holes), and a minor part of the paper's argument. But I'm not going to fuss about it. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 06:24, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::I'd be in favour of leaving the sentence out, partly because it is qualified in the paper partly because random scatter becomes an issue with the sample sizes discussed here. Otherwise, I'd say that the article in its present state properly represents the available sources. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]], [[Special:CentralAuth/Jo-Jo Eumerus|contributions]]) 18:54, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::Is the sample size not Billions of people? Even thousands of people over 110 is a reasonable sample size to look at an outlier like 122. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 15:40, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::Problem is that we can't really tell whether one person reaching their 122 birthday is "statistically unlikely" as random scatter happens; compare the [[Ecological fallacy]]. [https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-76002-5_2 There] [http://science.sciencemag.org/content/362/6412/eaav3229 is] apparently controversy on how to construct a statistic for extreme longevity and whether to extrapolate from it, so I would not accept any statement like "It's statistically extremely unlikely that someone lives to their 122 birthday" without a lot more collaboration in sources, such as a [[WP:MEDRS]] compliant meta review. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]], [[Special:CentralAuth/Jo-Jo Eumerus|contributions]]) 16:49, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::That's what I meant above about envelopes and holes. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 17:35, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 05:36, 12 January 2024

Former good articleJeanne Calment was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 16, 2008Good article nomineeListed
January 10, 2019Good article reassessmentDelisted
On this day...Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on February 14, 2012, and February 14, 2016.
Current status: Delisted good article


Jeanne Calment's true age[edit]

After Kane Tanaka died at 119, Jeanne Calment's age looks more suspicious than before. I notice that some sources claim her daughter had stolen her identity. The fact that she outlived the second-oldest person ever by more than 3 years makes this claim somewhat more reasonable. I mean, when someone approaches the biological limit of human life span, every day would be a hefty challenge (just like breaking the 100-metre dash world record, every 0.01s would be a huge breakthrough). I reckon people should start conducting another investigation into her age. 120.16.102.86 (talk) 12:22, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree obviously! Extremely sexy (talk) 02:10, 10 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Completely agree. The fact that #2 lived only 10 days longer than #3, and #4 is currently living at 118, I think Calment's age is dubious. However, it's not uncommon to spot huge, massive statistical outliers. But I don't see how launching another investigation into her age even remotely correlates to her Wikipedia talk page, unless you're seriously suggesting the investigation should be carried out by Wikipedia itself. 146.200.180.251 (talk) 18:06, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The investigation continues outside Wikipedia. Zak and Gibbs published a new book: "Jeanne Calment, the Secret of Longevity Unravelled: Volume I, The switch", https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BGQL8B2G. 81.154.127.249 (talk) 18:53, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The dataset is so weird. If we look at this here:
Oldest people
Then most of this range is from 117 to 119.
While it is, theoretically, possible to have outliers above, it seems
WAY too convenient for it to be at 122, in the year 1997. 2A02:8388:1641:4980:0:0:0:2 (talk) 11:30, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Geneticists have noted that, since Jeanne Calment had 16 distinct great-great-grandparents while her daughter Yvonne had only 12, the question of identity could easily be settled by a test for autozygous DNA, if a blood or tissue sample were to be made available.[1]— Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.94.8.31 (talk) 22:54, 30 Apr 2023 (UTC)
It's another example of the King effect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A099:BB00:28D2:A2B3:BB51:278E (talk) 20:15, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yet here on Wiki you have proof that the 100m record was broken by 0.9 seconds 14 years ago. Plus Robert Wadlow was 2 inches taller than anyone ever, and than was 80 years ago. 2A00:23C7:6393:B201:F11B:8DC5:10:8941 (talk) 22:01, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Robin-Champigneul, François (Feb 2020). "Jeanne Calment's Unique 122-Year Life Span: Facts and Factors; Longevity History in Her Genealogical Tree". Rejuvenation Research. 23 (1): 19–47. doi:10.1089/rej.2019.2298. PMID 31928146.

A couple of factual errors[edit]

"At the outbreak of World War I, her husband Fernand, who was 46, was deemed too old to serve in the military." In fact he was under 46 and his military record which is available online from Arles archives show that he was indeed mobilised. The cited source is wrong.

"In 1994, the city of Arles inquired about Calment's personal documents, in order to contribute to the city archives. However, reportedly on Calment's instructions, her documents and family photographs were selectively burned by a distant family member" The destruction of her archives was already reported in the 1988 Paris Match interview referenced, so it was not connected to any 1994 inquiry. I realise the statement does not say directly that it was but it has been interpreted that way.

I am not going to edit because I am not sure if these would count as OR. Weburbia (talk) 16:49, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Birthtime of Jeanne Louise Calment and her deathtime[edit]

Jeanne Louise Calment was born at 7:00 AM (06:00 GMT) on the Second Sunday of Lent, 21 February 1875, and died at 10:45 AM (08:45 GMT) on Monday, 4 August 1997, a Feast of Saint John Vianney. Birthtimes and deathtimes are important because the difference of timezones. The standard timezone of Wikipedia is GMT, not including DST.

189.69.67.106 (talk) 18:01, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how any of that is relevant. Please explain. --McSly (talk) 18:22, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2023[edit]

Under ‘Oldest documented human’, at the end of the first paragraph in the final sentence (‘Calment…manners.’), change ‘van Gogh’ to ‘Van Gogh’. 185.88.53.15 (talk) 21:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The name is Dutch and is normally lower case. Following the Wikipedia Manual of Style on personal names,MOS:PERSONAL, the correct form is “van Gogh” and is always lower case. See also, https://www.britannica.com/biography/Vincent-van-Gogh —Danorton (talk) 21:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source on Jeanne Calment eating daube[edit]

Pages 85–92 of Jeanne Calment: from Van Gogh's time to ours, 122 extraordinary years do not mention her enjoying daube. Which book, if any, contains this information? Noobnubcakes (talk) 19:45, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jeanne_Calment&diff=1195073769&oldid=875887113

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