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I'm feeling the article is in need of a prune but more immediately references cite to supporting material that define the topic. Per Q3/A3, 'papers that support ID should be used as primary sources to explain the nature of the concept' but also 'The article as it stands does not cite papers that support ID' so ... WP is saying this goes on for 36 screens and about 200 cites of criticisms but never defines the concept being criticized ?

I have seen the archive 20 part 27 chasing this, and the archive 31 'bamboozled' view of strawman that ended with just put whatever it is in, and the archive 53 'semantics III' and such. Would it be feasible to add a 'definition' section like Irreducible complexity has or to put in a section to explain why no definition is being posted  ? Markbassett (talk) 18:56, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not exactly sure what you mean. The concept is pretty simple. What would you like to see added that goes beyond the first three sentences of the lede? Which sources would you use? Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 19:42, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As said, the WP guidance in Q3/A3 is that 'papers that support ID should be used as primary sources to explain the nature of the concept' -- and WP also says this does not, which is obviously visible because the article starts at a conclusion "is a form of creationsism", and first cite is NCSE ('defending the teaching of evolution') website to their summary of Kitzmiller conclusions. From the talk pages it seems that it is not feasible or acceptable to start with a primary source definition of the topic like 'Intelligent Design, as promulgated by Discovery Institute, is <insert DI definition> <insert cite to DI item>' and THEN move on to article about that topic. How "as promulgated by Discovery Institute" or this "form of creationism" differentiates it is getting left unstated. So is a para talking about definition para as done for Irreducible complexity an acceptable way forward ? Or is there some other way of addressing documenting the definitional difficulty ? Markbassett (talk) 17:03, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Long story short, it was a decision by some editors to limit the article to the DI version, and other non-DI ID material was removed. So far, that is just an article scope decision. But as you point out, the first sentence (which essentially equates the two in both directions) is not RS'ed, and is probably not RS'able as written. North8000 (talk) 17:19, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your speculation lacks reliable sources. . dave souza, talk 23:44, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Which talk page discussion item is the type of thing that you are saying would need to be sourced:

1. It was a decision by some editors to limit the article to the DI version of ID
2. Other non-DI ID material was removed
3. #1 & #2 is just an article scope decision.
4. The first sentence essentially equates ID and the DI version of ID the two in both directions
5. The first sentence is not wp:RS'd
6. The first sentence is probably not RS'able as written.

All 6 are about this article. Are you saying that I should have to find a wp:RS that has written about this Wikipedia article?

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is not helpful as only actionable proposals lead to action. If someone has a suggestion, please just make it. That is, what text should be added or removed or changed? A brief "why" and some sources would be good. Johnuniq (talk) 00:43, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Viz. creationism, politicization of" would make for a succinct article. Long day, grumpy. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 01:46, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As Johnuniq said, specific changes ought to be proposed here. I have to admit, I'm not quite sure what Markbassett is talking about: the definition of ID by the DI is the second sentence in the lead ("The Institute defines it as the proposition that 'certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.'"). We have the definition, but no definition section. I kinda doubt we have enough material for a whole section, but if anyone feels up to the challenge, please propose something. If I recall correctly, we did have the definition as the first sentence for quite some time, but we transposed it because the most recognizable feature of ID is its religious association (i.e. it is widely regarded as creationism).

North8000, some comments/questions:

1. Yes, but not arbitrarily. We're informed by WP:UCN.
2. What material was removed? And was the subject of this material ID or the teleological argument?
3. Sure... but again, this is informed by Wikipedia policy.
4. It does?! How?
5. The lead does not need RSs.
6. I very highly doubt that.

In any case, the answer is the definition is there; it's the second sentence in the article. Is it not enough? Should it be moved? Specific proposals will move this discussion forward. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 14:43, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest expanding the scope to origin-of-life/universe-ID identified in RS's as such. Without that it gets a bit awkward, but something along the lines of "In 19XX, the DI began an effort to promote their version of ID........ This has become the most prominent form of ID. North8000 (talk) 17:55, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For that, you'd need sufficient reliable secondary sources using the term intelligent design to identify the "versions". Primary sources referring to the teleological argument and happening to use phrases such as "intelligent design" are obviously insufficient. WP:UCN applies, and the same applies to kitchen suppliers using "Intelligent Design" as their brand name. . . dave souza, talk 19:36, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think the problem is just that the way Q3 is written is confusing. The ID definition already here does come from the appropriate primary source. The FAQs "article as it stands does not cite papers that support ID because no such papers have been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals" refers not to which sources are appropriate to the "definition" of ID but which sources are appropriate to describing the "science" behind it (or more appropriately, the absence of these sources). And intelligent design and irreducible complexity are not the same things-they naturally have different definitions. Irreducible complexity is defined in this article, and its stand-alone article is wikilinked where the term appears in the lead. I think this is the best way to handle it. Professor marginalia (talk) 19:56, 14 May 2013 (UTC) Sorry-I initially misread the OP's meaning referring to IC. Professor marginalia (talk) 20:52, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So I made a brief comment, and then somebody inappropriately implies that the comment is deficient for lack of sourcing. I gently question/call them on that. Then someone says that anything but a suggested change in not useful, so I give a couple ideas on ways to fix it. Then Dave pretends that I never included the origin-of-life/universe qualifier in my suggestion and thus invents a straw man version (all instances of the term "intelligent design" including kitchen cabinets) to mis-characterize and insult my idea. This is descending into old ways; I can see that my thoughts are not wanted by some here, and so I'll sign off on this thread. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:13, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

North, your patience with these guys still amazes me. Haven't you learned by now that they have no interest in having their POV removed or modified in the article? Even though the term "intelligent design" has existed long before the Discovery Institute, the DI has usurped the term ID and these editors fully support that POV. Because of DI's misbehavior, then it makes it easy for them to negatively color the broader (and older) concept of looking for (and testing) evidence of design in the universe that long precedes the emergence our species. Anyone, no matter what their credentials are (again, I bring up John Polkinghorne, Freeman Dyson, Owen Gingerich), if they make any association with the concept of design, this article will immediately stain that with the antics of the DI. It's like the editors here doing that are collaborating with DI, which has the effect of false association that both groups like. (DI has it's reputation raised when they are falsely associated with reputable scientists that happen to make reference to the term: "intelligent design" and the anti-ID editors can simply write off authors that challenge their way of representing intelligent design by simply and falsely associating them with DI). It's hopeless, North. 71.169.180.23 (talk) 16:07, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(Added later) I think that that is an accurate assessment. Other non-DI ID material was removed. Being an atheist myself, I am obviously not bringing up these issues to pursue a RW POV. I believe that the topic of (origin of life/universe-related) intelligent design should be fairly and properly covered as such. Defining it as limited to a recent prominent semi-political variant is most likely an effort to deprecate it, which I believe is not proper for a Wikipedia article, despite the fact that I do not agree with any form of ID. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:18, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I don't think this a confusion over old references to "intelligent design" vs DI's ID. It's a confusion about what Q3 means or how to apply it. The definition pf ID in the lead has two cites-one to the NCSE but the other to DI (a primary source as alluded to in Q3). And I assume the NCSE cite has slipped out of place because the quoted definition doesn't seem to come from there. Professor marginalia (talk) 21:08, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't the Teleological argument article cover all the stuff this one by design (heh-heh) omits? "Long story short, it was a decision by some editors to limit the article to the DI version, and other non-DI ID material was removed. So far, that is just an article scope decision." (Posted above by North8000 on 17:19, 13 May 2013.) Seems to me that everything people wish were in this article is in that one. Yopienso (talk) 18:18, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But then the article is mistitled, perhaps "Intelligent design (Discovery Institute)" is more accurate. But, as it is titled, the topic matter must include whatever "intelligent design" meant before the DI ever existed. That line does not necessarily lead solely to DI. There are other reputable thinkers with creditials that have written about the term and take a different position than DI. It is manifestly not neutral to axiomatically couple the notion of "intelligent design" to whatever DI says it is, or only authors associated with DI. It is conveniently biased. 71.169.180.23 (talk) 19:25, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

John Polkinghorne used the term "intelligent design" to refer to DI's intelligent design as well.

Look, the issue at hand isn't "scope" (as North8000 pointed out), but Q3 and sourcing. The source is now consistent with Q3. There was also a question about whether a definition section as in irreducible complexity is appropriate, and we've had several posters point out that it is premature to recommend adopting one here before having any sourced content in hand to put in it! The "definition section" in irreducible complexity consists of 3 quotes, 2 from the same fellow, both men quoted are affiliated with DI. Here we have one analogous quotation in the article, from DI, and now that the source is cleaned up, I myself don't understand what anyone else finds lacking with it. Can we please not hijack this thread grousing over extraneous issues? Professor marginalia (talk) 20:40, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

IP, it appears that you want Wikipedia to reflect three separate, distinct subjects: the teleological argument, ID, and ID (Discovery Institute). Do you have sources—I'd say they'd pretty much have to be secondary for this level of organization, but maybe someone will correct me...—detailing the differences between ID and the teleological argument? Or ID from ID (Discovery Institute)? I did a brief search and couldn't find anything other than Owen Gingrich using uppercase letters for the DI's ID and lowercase letters for the proposition he supports (which, from cursory glance, looks like the teleological argument).

Also, could you folks please stop with the persecution syndrome? There is no concerted effort here to protect a POV page; you just haven't sufficiently supported your assertion with reliable sources. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 23:00, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was fading out, but now you are calling my well-reasoned comments and observations (e.g. about non-DI ID material having been removed) a "persecution syndrome". The artificial narrowing, and the unsourced and unsourcable OR wording (the one-to-one equation of ID with the DI version) is based on nothing but what the proponents of this here have decided. Such is a significant error at best. North8000 (talk) 00:38, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

North8000, that's not what I said. I was not referring to your observations about the article, but the rude and/or disingenuous comments made to insult fellow editors. We did not arbitrarily title this page "Intelligent design"; it was not just a whim decision we had one day. We are operating under Wikipedia policy, and that phrase is the most prominent name for this subject. Nor are we excluding information due to personal bias. I have asked for sources, and I'm still asking for sources. What is the unsourceable wording? What are the sources talking about an ID that is both distinct from that of the DI and the teleological argument? You say you're an atheist, so you must recognize the persuasive power of evidence. Provide the evidence... change our minds. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 03:29, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"The artificial narrowing, and the unsourced and unsourcable OR wording (the one-to-one equation of ID with the DI version) is based on nothing but what the proponents of this here have decided. Such is a significant error at best." In response I'd characterize the accusation itself as "significant error at best".

As has been repeated a hundred times at least-there are separate articles for the DI launched intelligent design and the teleological argument. Those battles over which of the two is more deserving of the auspicious title "intelligent design" can go on ad nauseum- fair enough. But that's a battle over the TITLE. Meanwhile the DI's intelligent design article (whatever it is called) is poorly served by editors who are so fixated on the unfairness of it bearing the TITLE they can't see passed it! It's that simple. Separate the battles over the title from the battles over content! Because these efforts to leverage the title away from the DI brand of intelligent design by exploiting every point raised as an opportunity to win territory, to wedge in non-DI related material does not leave readers better informed. It presents them a crazy quilt of lazy crap research! DI intelligent design warrants a stand-alone article, and wikipedia's readers deserve it be described accurately.

So-those of you that think THIS article does not deserve the title, more power to you. Fight to change the title. But fight fair. But don't dumb down the content of the article under the title, don't dismantle the legitimately focused content in this legitimately separate article in order to accomplish it. OK? Professor marginalia (talk) 05:51, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank for that response which, though I don't agree with all of, is very thoughtful compared to the inflaming maneuver-ry tactics employed by some. I think that I will respond by answering your one question and then fading out on this thread (unless someone stokes it again with another insult), leaving the big discussion for another day. The unsourced and unsourcable statement is that of a one-to-one correspondence between ID and the DI version. To illustrate I'll use a more mundane topic example. Let's say that some editors decided that the motorcycle article was to cover only the 2 wheeled versions, and that the three wheeled versions would be covered in the "Tri-wheel argument" article. (The Tri-Wheeled Motorcycle Club would be rightfully angry but that is a different topic) A statement that "A motorcycle is a 2 wheeled vehicle" is a statement that "motorcycle" includes only 2 wheeled vehicles, would be an incorrect and unsourcable statement. So, the statements that say "ID = the DI version of ID" are unsourced and unsourcable. North8000 (talk) 11:27, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Eh? We show multiple sources defining ID as a form of creationism, and making it clear that it differs from the traditional design argument by attempting scientifically to demonstrate repeated miraculous intervention in the history of life, while claiming to be science and not a religious argument. Your analogy fails: you seem to be arguing that motor tricycle should cover motorcycle because it's a subset of the broader category. Interestingly, motorcycle gives little coverage to motor trikes: the ID article gives quite a lot of coverage to relevant aspects of the design argument. Starting with the first paragraph of the lead, which notes that it is a contemporary adaptation of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God. . . dave souza, talk 15:23, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your first sentence, but logically it does not refute or even directly address either the main or sidebar point in my post. Using the "set" terminology, this article:

1. (sidebar point in my post) Makes a poor choice of having the superset as the title and having the scope being only the subset
2. (main point of my post) Makes an inaccurate, unsourced and unsourcable statement that the superset is the subset

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:01, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to get or give ulcers over this. I'm taking a break on this. If anyone wants me please ping me. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:35, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

North8000, again this discussion appears to boil down to how we apply WP:UCN to these two subjects: ID and the teleological argument. Your claim that the superset (the teleological argument/"i.d.") is presented as the subset (ID/the DI's ID) seems to be a matter of interpretation. I don't see anything explicitly stating that the former equates to the latter (in fact, the third sentence in the lead distinguishes the two), so it looks like the problem is merely semantic; the title, "intelligent design," is equivocation only if you've already presupposed that this phrase is the common name for the teleological argument. This may be the case, but you haven't substantiated it. Please provide sources illustrating that ID is indeed the most prominent name for the teleological argument. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 17:51, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just looked up "Intelligent design" in Britannica. "Intelligent design was formulated in the 1990s, primarily in the United States, as an explicit refutation of the theory of biological evolution advanced by Charles Darwin (1809–82). Building on a version of the argument from design for the existence of God advanced by the Anglican clergyman William Paley (1743–1805), supporters of intelligent design observed that the functional parts and systems of living organisms are “irreducibly complex,” in the sense that none of their component parts can be removed without causing the whole system to cease functioning." Its 2006 Year In Review specifies, "The ID movement took shape in the early 1990s with the work of Phillip Johnson, a legal scholar, and first came to national attention in 1996, when Michael Behe, a molecular biologist, published Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution (2nd revised ed., 2006)." Both go on to describe its presentment as a scientific refutation of Darwinian evolution, and its organized activism to see ID introduced as a scientifically sound alternative in public school science classes. It's clearly the same DI-ID described in Britannica as described in this article, although this one goes much more in depth.

If there are sources inappropriately used here referring to a different "intelligent design", the non-DI affiliated "intelligent design", they should be cleaned out. But are there any? Can't be many, I'm sure. Professor marginalia (talk) 18:06, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

History

In the recurring conflicts over the definition of ID, the following paragraph from Mario Livio's immensely readable popular history and assessment of mathematics, Is God a Mathematician? (Simon and Schuster Paperbacks, 2009, p. 84) may at some point be a useful ref. I've bolded the most relevant part of Livio's comments wrt to Pope John Paul II's 1992 "rehabilitation" of Galileo:

To be fair, the Pope found himself in a no-win situation. Any decision on his part, whether to ignore the issue and keep Galileo's condemnation on the books, or to finally acknowledge the church's error, was likely to be criticized. Still, at a time when there are attempts to introduce biblical creationism as an alternative "scientific" theory (under the thinly veiled title of "intelligent design"), it is good to remember that Galileo already fought this battle almost four hundred years ago--and won! Yopienso (talk) 22:44, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Yopienso, an interesting thought. Without the book to hand I'm a bit unsure of the context, as the Galileo affair was rather more complex than the common Galileo gambit would suggest. However, the point does stand that there have been problems in the past of reconciling religious doctrines with the findings of science, and biblical creationism/ID takes one approach, which is to deny the science. . dave souza, talk 06:38, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My thought was to quote a scholar of Livio's stature who refers to ID as a thinly veiled title for bibical creationism. The back cover (and our BLP) note he "is a senior astrophysicist and head of the Office of Public Outreach at the Hubble Space Telescope Science Institute . . ." The context was in relating the "Galileo Affair" toward the end of a brief (23-page) examination of Galileo's life and, specifically, his contributions to mathematics. The reference to ID was entirely an aside.

Type "intelligent design" into the search feature on this page to see pp. 81-84 (and lots more!)

I read Livio's book on the golden ratio several years ago, and find this one perhaps even more fascinating. It's a fun summer read for the layman--nothing technical to wade through, perfect for a history buff like myself who likes to know ABOUT math and mathematicians but doesn't have the brains to actually DO math. :-) Yopienso (talk) 19:58, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Does the Discovery Institute or other advocates of ID state that they intend it to be considered as a scientific theory? If so, then the intro should say something like, "Intelligent Design is promoted as a scientific theory by its proponents, but described as creationism by critics and observers" or something like that. Otherwise, it appears that we're taking one side's opinion and putting it in WP's voice. Cla68 (talk) 22:20, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We go by what the reliable secondary sources say. The DI is not a reliable source, even about itself. They have a long and sordid, and well documented, history of misrepresenting themselves and their motives in their promotional materials. Basically, anything they have to say about themselves or their product has to be treated with extreme suspicion, per WP:SPS and WP:REDFLAG, and filtered through reliable independent secondary sources. Whether the DI considers ID a scientific theory is immaterial, as no one else does. It is an extreme fringe and unduly self-serving claim. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 22:30, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, what you are proposing would not conform to WP:NPOV, especially WP:UNDUE and WP:GEVAL. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 22:37, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cla68, I suspect that would be presenting "pseudoscientific fringe views alongside the scientific or academic consensus as though they are opposing but still equal views," which is prohibited per Wikipedia policy. I believe the following passage from the guideline on Pseudoscience and other fringe theories most accurately describes our situation. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 22:41, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Did you guys read my suggested sentence? It presents the idea in a neutral fashion by explaining how the idea's proponents AND critics see it. That's NPOV. It does not put it as a scientific theory in WP's voice and it makes it clear how critics regard it. Also, doesn't the article point out that DI is not the only organization which promotes and supports ID? Cla68 (talk) 22:54, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Again, your interpretation of what "neutral" means here on WP is grossly divergent from what our policies say. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:01, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't answer my question. Is DI the only proponent of ID? Also, would you consider what you said above about DI, "They have a long and sordid, and well documented, history of misrepresnting themselves..." as a neutral interpretation of their actions on this issue? Cla68 (talk) 23:15, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your question was irrelevant. And yes, what I said above is well borne out by the reliable sources. And, I might add, by the DI itself. See the Wedge Document. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:19, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cla68, I did read the sentence you proposed, and I felt it presented a pseudoscientific, fringe view on equal footing as the scientific consensus. That's why I stated as much. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 00:07, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The scientific consensus is that the proponents of ID don't propose it as a scientific theory? That appears to contradict what the sources say. Cla68 (talk) 01:27, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cla, your sentence fails WP:GEVAL. As I'm sure you know. If you're going to propose changes, please do so with an appropriate discussion of sources. Guettarda (talk) 01:42, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cla68 if what you mean is that we should comment on the fact that the proponents of ID push it as a scientific theory, then this is already stated in the second sentence of the WP:LEAD: "It is a contemporary adaptation of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, presented by its advocates as "an evidence-based scientific theory about life's origins"rather than "a religious-based idea"". Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 01:55, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Guettarda, WP:GEVAL, IMO, doesn't apply here because the proponents of ID are not the minority view. They are the majority view (of ID, not evolution vs creation). This article isn't directly about the overall debate between evolutionism and creationism. It's about the philosophy of intelligent design. Therefore, the article should present the philosophy as its believers present it, as well as the criticisms of it. It's their idea. To present the topic from the stand point of discrediting it from the outset is not a neutral presentation. The NPOV policy requires that nonjudgmental language be used. This article and talk page is full of pejorative, judgmental language favoring one side over the other. A good example above is the statement by Dominus Vobisdu justifying his position in which he/she says, "They have a long and sordid, and well documented, history of misrepresenting themselves and their motives." Would you say that this is an NPOV statement? Cla68 (talk) 04:47, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cla68, please do not misrepresent my statement again; that is extremely dishonest. The scientific consensus is that ID is pseudoscience, therefore, in accordance with Wikipedia policy, and as I stated earlier, we cannot present it as an equally valid view. The fact that ID is purported to be scientific by its proponents—a fact that is already in this article—is entirely irrelevant. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 05:26, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cla68: Your mistake is in thinking that ID is some sort of "philosophy". It isn't. It's a legal ploy to skirt a supreme court decision and fool gullible politicians, school board members, and members of the uninformed general public that it's more than just plain old Creationism. Look behind the curtain, and there's absolutely nothing there. No science, no philosophy, just plain old Creationism in a pretty package.

Sorry, but you're coming across as woefully ignorant about the topic of this article, and that you're relying almost entirely on your imagination of what ID is. Your view is definitely not based on what is written about the topic in reliable sources. Quite the opposite. As you've been told before, you are conflating ID with the Teleological argument, which, unlike ID, is philosophy.

Second, your reading of our policies, especially WP:RS, WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE is so divergent from that of your fellow editors that it any suggestions along the line you have been taking for the past year or more are likely to be taken as nonsensical. We do not provide a free platform for fringe proponents to present their product as they themselves describe it. That is against our policies.

Last of all, please stop making proposals that are not supported by reliable sources and do not conform to our policies. That is disruptive, and an abuse of the article talk page. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 09:43, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cla, your proposed text is Intelligent Design is promoted as a scientific theory by its proponents, but described as creationism by critics and observers. This puts the proponents of ID on equal footing with "critics and observers". But the people you describe as "critics and observers" not only represent mainstream science and philosophy of science, they also represent the bulk of people who have written scholarly work about what ID is.

• WP:GEVAL, IMO, doesn't apply here because the proponents of ID are not the minority view - the question "is ID science" was the basis of the Kitzmiller trial, and the conclusion was clearly and unambiguously against them. There's a wealth of scholarly work on the topic as well, both pre- and post-Kitzmiller, which have looked at this question - Pennock, Forrest, Sober, and others. We should refrain from supplanting high-quality scholarly sources with your opinion.
• Therefore, the article should present the philosophy as its believers present it, as well as the criticisms of it. It's their idea. To present the topic from the stand point of discrediting it from the outset is not a neutral presentation. Again, I refer you to WP:GEVAL: Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship. There are many such beliefs in the world, some popular and some little-known: claims that the Earth is flat, that the Knights Templar possessed the Holy Grail, that the Apollo moon landings were a hoax, and similar ones. Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or even plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. This comes directly from our NPOV policy; the policy exists as it does precisely because of topics like ID.
• A good example above is the statement by Dominus Vobisdu ... Would you say that this is an NPOV statement? - Really? You're arguing that NPOV applies to talk pages? That's tedious nonsense, if not outright disruption.

Again, as I asked you in my last post, please stick to a discussion of appropriate sources. Your (unsupported) opinions are not an appropriate substitute for sourced content. Guettarda (talk) 14:31, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Cla68 should know all that by now, which makes Cla's comments look like trolling. The requirements are also well covered at the WP:WEIGHT and WP:PSCI sections of NPOV policy. However, Cla's heading raises a question: what revert warring? Diffs required, and note the plural. . dave souza, talk 17:27, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is true that "DI is not a reliable source ... about itself", but they are a reliable source about what they say and what position they represent. The DI are the sole reliable source about what their own position is. If these biased editors insist on making the article about solely what ID means to DI (which they shouldn't because the concept, even the precise term, has existed long before DI), then they should faithfully represent what DI says ID is and qualify it as such. But, of course, that is not their intention and you, Cla68, as well as many other serious editors who have objected to the obviously biased tone of the article (not to mention content, a violation of WP:NPOV that would not be tolerated in any other major article in Wikipedia), have identified the clear inconsistency with their professed intent. While it is true that "DI is not a reliable source ... about itself", so also it is true about these editors who esteem themselves as neutral. While it is true that DI has "a long and sordid, and well documented, history of misrepresenting themselves and their motives...", it is also so about these editors. And neither DI nor these biased editors are willing to come to terms with the fact.

Watch out Cla. "trolling" ... "disruptive" ... "outright disruption". They're angling to ease you out. And if you don't take the hint, your exit might have less ease in it. 12.226.82.2 (talk) 02:58, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop whining. We are acting according to Wikipedia policies, even those you conveniently omit in your posts (i.e. WP:GEVAL, WP:DUE, WP:FRINGE, and WP:PSCI). If you don't like how this article is handled, take it to a noticeboard. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 15:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

this article really encapsulates all the strength and weakness of wikipedia, and, why, I think ultimately wiki is an experiment doomed to failure. I last saw this article about a year ago, and it was MUCH better - shorter and better written. How can anyone rely on a source which is constatnly changing ? on the other hand, the editors have done an unbelievably heroic job of maintaining this article in the face of an onslaught by people who don't seem to understand that neutral canbe critical (to take an example purely for argument sake, an article on Stalin or Hitler or Pol Pot is going to be mostly negative). I look at all the work the editors have done, for free - unpaid and unsung, and that they can't keep an article with revisions once every few years is astonishing. my heart goes out to them