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I'm bringing this up again (previous discussion here) as there is a fresh perspective on this article now. The sentence on Władysław Sikorski appearing in the WW2 subsection of the history section is to my mind very odd and out of place in this summary history of the territory. I've never even seen this mentioned in a history of Gibraltar. e.g. this book [1] has no mention in its substantial WW2 chapter. Nor does this book, which you can search inside [2] to confirm what I say. If we search Google books for "Sikorski Gibraltar" we don't find any books on Gibraltar itself [3]. A good example of where we do find it is in the Historical Dictionary of Poland [4].

It was entirely coincidental that he died leaving Gibraltar. Yes it may have been a major talking point and the subject of conspiracy theories in Gibraltar to this day, but that kind of topic should not be discussed in a history section. Therefore I suggest this sentence should be removed. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 13:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Its considered a significant event 'in Gibraltar enough that there is a monument to the event, and was a pivotal event in world history. I do not understand your obsession with removing a line in the article about this. --Gibnews (talk) 09:39, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please show me a text on the history of Gibraltar which mentions this event? I cannot find one. Therefore, I doubt its effect on the history of Gibraltar, and therefore its relevance in this section. If you can't either demonstrate its significance with a source rather than your own original research, I am going to remove it. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 13:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than make any comment at present on the substantive point above, which in any case I find too minor either way to be worth arguing about, could I issue a general reminder that if all of us can avoid all reference to the perceived motivators of other editors, and if we are sufficiently large-minded to ignore past disagreements, we will achieve far more, at far less cost in irritation and verbiage, than we have done so far. Wikipedia's policies and guidelines provide excellent ways of working up fine articles, but on this page, discussion has repeatedly been derailed by disagreements based on the imputed desires of others.

To put it another way, if you assume that people are not out to get you, you may find that they aren't. And if you assume they don't care about your agenda and are just trying to improve the article, you may find you can answer their points in a civil and encyclopedic fashion. This will allow the article to improve rapidly with minimum stress all round. In this case, for example, are there any secondary sources on Gibraltar that find Sikorski's death worth mentioning? Or could we accept a nice picture of the monument? Richard Keatinge (talk) 13:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nice picture of the monument sounds good. The reason I bring this up is because the article contains far too many indiscriminate list-like one or two sentence paragraphs. Another case: the second half of the recent history section. The 2006+ one-liners are far too recent, and frankly, minor, to be included in a potted history of the territory. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 14:37, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You have a point, and I'm not disagreeing, but sometimes history really is just one damned thing after another, and the last to date in any series of events may be noteworthy for that reason alone. Rephrasing the one-liners into coherent prose may be worth a try, but I suggest that failure to do so doesn't necessarily require their deletion. Richard Keatinge (talk) 15:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

History is one damned thing after another, but that shouldn't stop an encyclopaedia article being a good, flowing read. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 16:51, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You may find the below images of use: --Gibmetal 77^talk 16:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, very useful. I have chosen the picture that has the most legible English text and put it into the article. See what you think. I haven't managed to put it all into really flowing prose - best of luck. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While the rest of Europe was cooling, the area around Gibraltar back then "resembled a European Serengeti," Finlayson said. Leopards, hyenas, lynxes, wolves and bears lived among wild cattle, horses, deer, ibexes, oryxes and rhinos — all surrounded by olive trees and stone pines, with partridges and ducks overhead, tortoises in the underbrush and mussels, limpets and other shellfish in the waters.

--this (under history) is a direct quote from Clive Finlayson, and should probably be in quotes. Efreak (talk) 05:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All we see of Gibraltar itself in Das Boot a very blurry nighttime silhouette (probably not even actual footage of Gibraltar - at least, looks a bit dodgy, having crossed the Straits myself) and apart from a couple of statements about getting "near to Gibraltar" there is only one real line of dialogue about it - "Gibraltar, where the mildness and beauty of the Mediterranean world meet the force and expansion of the Atlantic realm." Is this really enough to list under Gibraltar in film? The film itself is not about Gibraltar at all, and its inclusion here smacks of trivia. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 00:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The section "Gibraltar in popular culture" consists only in trivial data. Having just read other articles about bigger cities such as Edinburgh, Madrid, Rome, Chicago or New York, after reading this one I felt that it adds very little to the article overall, which is too large already. This being a wiki, I deleted the section. However, I've been reverted twice for vandalism. I'm new to this, but I want to make it clear that I am not trying to vandalise anything. I state my opinion as a mere user of wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.41.201 (talk) 10:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As Wikipedia always urges, "be bold"! Don't let it put you off. It's just unfortunate that this page has some regular, stubborn editors who feel very strongly about what is contained within this page, almost bordering on ownership. If you change anything they don't like, it will be reverted as "vandalism", then write a one-million word essay here on the talk page as to why it shouldn't be changed. Chances are you will fall asleep and not even finish what they have written, never mind have it in you to argue your side! I invite you to sift through the Talk Page archives to see exactly what I mean... Beware - arguments and edit wars galore! Enjoy!! _Will^dow (Talk) 11:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, be bold, but don't get into an edit war. Anon IPs arriving and deleting entire sections is pretty much universally viewed as vandalism. I agree this section adds very little to the article and should be deleted. Personally, I hate these trivia sections. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 11:48, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Same goes for Notable people from Gibraltar. This should be integrated into List of Gibraltarians (an odd article, but hey, it can house the cruft), and this article should be listed as a "see also" item in Gibraltar. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 11:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the "see also" for List of Gibraltarians rather than having it on this page, which should be about Gibraltar itself. _Will^dow (Talk) 12:38, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, that's done. The (unsourced) LoG page was actually missing a couple of people here. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 13:18, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I created an article Gibraltar in popular culture and moved that section's content there. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 13:24, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As civility appears to have returned to this page, perhaps it's time to nominate Gibraltar for FA status? It would need a little work to have it in a state ready for nomination - basically ensuring the manual of style is being followed - reference formats, image layouts etc (unfortunately I think some of the images would have to go - there are too many). The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 11:33, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we can work on the article so that it reaches FA status. Related to this, my biggest worry is about the lead. Gib looks like a very lively and mixed community in a strategical place with a very long and interesting history and a very strong personality, and a great part of the lead does not do justice to all of this. Actually, I find the lead a bit of a mess, probably not summarising some of the most important issues about Gibraltar and giving too much importance to things that are a bit anecdotal at best (for example the Jane's country rating part).

Take a look, for example, at France, Spain, UK, USA, ... It seems that the structure of the lead seems to be (more or less) the following: Geography and demography, History and culture, Government, Economy and international relations. If you look, the leads seem to highlight the issues that are more characteristic of the country vis a vis other countries (e.g.: the second largest territory, the biggest economy, ...) Couldn't we come up with a lead that goes along those lines? --Imalbornoz (talk) 08:55, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given the recent unopposed attempts to remove things from the article by editors who do not have any appreciation of the sigtnificance of events, like censoring the ruling on regional selectivity which was meritorious enough to warrant a PUBLIC HOLIDAY or the IRA incursion which generated international interest, the article is more likely to receive FU status in the future. --Gibnews (talk) 14:14, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is "FU status"? --Imalbornoz (talk) 16:16, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd guess at Fucked Up. The concept of this being a GA let alone an FA is a stretch to me. I do think some things are along the right line (There appears to finally be a move towards prose as opposed to one liners, as well as removing extraneous information that belongs on more specialised pages), but we are a long way off and progress on this page is in no way fast enough for it to leap up to FA in the space of an FAR. --Narson ~ Talk • 16:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

FUBAR status would be more appropriate. At the moment we have a half-arsed piss-poor compromise which only tells one half of the story. To be blunt, the article has added material on self-government but made no attempt to put the new material in context. Justin talk 17:44, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With the return (after threats of prolonged absence) of what I can only see as a WP:DIVA I have to abandon hopes of a Featured Article. An editor who can allude to some sort of apology on the 11th when I find at best "As a matter of disclosure, I said some things in the heat of the moment a few days ago that I regret and apologise publicly and unreservedly for", mixed up with comments such as "You have an agenda and wikipedia is the platform you chose to use; it isn't about writing an encyclopedia. I will never apologise for saying that, because you and I both know its true. I regret some of the things said in the heat of the moment that is all. My intention is to quit, if you wish to follow Red Hat's agenda of making it a block you go right ahead. I bare my buttocks in both of your general directions. Justin talk 15:38, 11 February 2010 (UTC)" I'm very sorry to say that in my judgement, after re-reading through the last three archive files, Justin's incivility and difficulty in getting to the point have derailed reams of discussion to date. I can see no reason why this should not continue indefinitely.

Again I ask for civility, relevant comments, encyclopedic suggested wordings rather than restatements of disagreement, and good sources. With them, we can work through almost any issues. Without them, very little can be achieved. Richard Keatinge (talk) 22:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah right I see. Comment on the edit not the editor ring any bells?

You've decided who the problem was, no amount of actually trying to discuss the matter with you will achieve results. Take your own advice to be blunt.

You acknowledged it as as peripheral issue and my argument has always been about due prominence, which you've never ever addressed. Instead you label me a POV warrior and insist on edit warring your solution into the article, oblivious to any objections. You just see what you want to see, take the evidence you think fits the picture.

I suppose the irony of dragging up the comments from a month ago has passed you by restatements of disagreement by any chance Richard. Not to mention bullying your solution into the article when you're talking about civility and ignoring any comments or grossly misrepresenting the arguments. Then when someone gets upset at being treated in that manner, then that just self-reinforces your beliefs. Sorry that I'm a humble engineering graduate and don't have a Cambridge tie dear boy. Justin talk 23:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

San Roque was imposed on this article, in spite of reasoned objections for its inclusion, argued on the basis of policy and not one of which has ever been rebutted or answered. Instead, it has been included on the basis that was "censorship", well on the basis "When someone complains loudly about censorship, you may be certain they are up to no good.", I wish to reopen that again because I really do object to a solution being imposed by edit warring and avoiding discussion of the argument. I'm opening it up for discussion, if there is to be no discussion then I am simply going to remove it. Justin talk 14:22, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Justin, the present text reflects a consensus, based on the priorities of the authoritative sources quoted. Do we need to go through it all again? Richard Keatinge (talk) 15:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No it does not represent a consensus, it was a solution imposed by yourself and you have never addressed the argument I presented against inclusion. Yes we have to go through it all again, it was included on the basis of long term tendentious arguments and that I resent as a means of arguing for inclusion. We don't encourage consensus agreement by appeasement.

Further, I didn't impose my preferred version I added a compromise as suggested by Atama, which I noted you reverted without discussion. Justin talk 15:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Justin, Justin... you are not having a very good re-entry (it's been... only 17 days! since your "Thanks but this is goodbye"). Your first post here since your return has included the keywords: "imposed", "censorship", "someone (...) are up to no good", "imposed by edit warring", "avoiding discussion"... Mmmmhhh...

I have found 485 mentions of San Roque in this talk page (here, here, here, and here). Can anyone seriously say that San Roque has not been discussed? Really, if someone said that, I would have to infer that the person a) has a significant level of self-delusion or b) is trying to delude other people or c) is joking. Justin, when you said that it was imposed by edit warring and avoiding discussion you were joking... weren't you?

If you care to look at those archives, you will find that the main argument for the inclusion of San Roque in the History section of the Gibraltar article was that "The facts (as drafted above, hereinafter just "the facts") are verifiably included in several reputable English-language histories of Gibraltar. No such history has been produced which omits the facts. They are found to be more notable to reputable historians than several points which have been included without controversy."

In fact that argument gained the greatest support and led to a consensus (all editors and mediators except you) which is now in the article.

Justin, you should not "simply remove" parts which you don't like, or imply that the only argument for inclusion was the cry of "Censorship!" (or that only you discussed while other people tried to "impose by edit warring and avoiding discussion"). Please.

And also, if you have decided to come back from your "self-imposed exile" (which I am glad you have done, and I was sure you would), please take a new look at your farewell sentence (not the "I bare my buttocks in your general direction" one but the "serious one") and think again whether it was that "one determined editor single mindedly worked the system" (admins, mediators and all) or that you just were not right to keep San Roque out of the Gib article. Please, think again and leave the consensus sentence alone. --Imalbornoz (talk) 16:08, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty happy with Justin's version. Avoids all the silly debates over 'Was it many or most to san roque, where else in spain did they go' etc. --Narson ~ Talk • 16:49, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, you have not provided a response to my argument other than to scream "CENSORSHIP", "SAN ROQUE MUST BE MENTIONED". The version I added was Atama's suggested compromise not my preferred version. Yet your first reflex option was to REVERT.

My departure and its bad tempered nature was entirely down to the imposition of a solution and the refusal to address the argument.

Still don't see a response either. Things haven't changed in the slightest. Justin talk 16:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To repeat, San Roque is mentioned, ahead of several other details which are uncontroversially in the article, by every reputable English-language historian. That argument achieved consensus, partly because like Atama's suggestion it avoided the historically-dubious issues. Perhaps we could have your arguments again, including any new points, before we change away from what we had managed to thrash out? Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:49, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No San Roque is currently mentioned as your imposed solution and refusal to address the argument against it. The arguments were stated below already. We didn't manage to thrash it out you imposed it and that is what I violently objected to then and still do now. It was bullied into the article, first by Imalbornoz stagnating the page with reams of tendentious argument, then by you imposing a solution. I stated then I wasn't prepared to accept it and I'm still not prepared to have a solution imposed. Justin talk 18:00, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Compromise? No, it was your imposed solution. Which I objected to and which you refused to discuss. You are of course welcome to take it to talk or you can edit war to impose it again.

I await with interest to see the course of action you intend to pursue. Justin talk 15:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh and the compromise edit, was the one I addeed, the compromise suggested by Atama and Gibmetal77, not my preferred version. I just bring that to your attention as in your haste to revert you appear to have missed it. Justin talk 15:56, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The version you have removed was the result of a long and painful consensus process which finally managed to leave you as the only editor disagreeing. If you can achieve consensus for a change, please, feel free. Until then perhaps we could just leave it as it was? Richard Keatinge (talk) 16:39, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Err, no, Gibmetal77 and Atama actually agreed with me. Justin talk 16:46, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to see Atama's compromise proposal until we see an agreement, could someone else please do a revert for me; seeing as 2 editors are reverting to their preferred version rather than a compromise which is neither mine nor theirs. I just want to underline that point. Justin talk 16:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Again, to make it plain I have no objection to the mention of San Roque in the right circumstances. San Roque may be a peripheral issue but in the History of Gibraltar we do have the time and space to devote to it. It may also be worthy of mention in the Disputed Status of Gibraltar. What I really do object to, is the people who mischaracterise my opposition to this edit proposal as "suppressing mention of San Roque at all costs" or "on grounds not acceptable to wikipedia" I have put forward a perfectly acceptable policy based rationale for my disagreement. A perfectly acceptable compromise for an overview article is to avoid mention of peripheral issues and delegate that to the more detailed article. This is within the guidelines of wikipedia for an overview. That compromise suggestion was rejected out of hand by the editors who demand we must mention San Roque in this article. What isn't acceptable grounds for wikipedia are the rationale put forward by JCRB "Some editors try to avoid mentioning San Roque to keep readers of this article in the dark about the original Gibraltarians and how they fled the rock following its occupation." because wikipedia is not a soapbox to advance such an agenda. Nor is it a soapbox to proselytise constantly about "rapings, desecrations, plundering and murders in retaliation" that happened 300 years ago. Because that is simply using emotionally charged language to try and close down the debate and paint the opposing viewpoint as unacceptable. We have wasted too much time and effort to such a peripheral issue, that many times I have thought to simply "let the babies have their chocolate" so to speak. I am utterly fed up with having my position mischaracterised and labelled as "unacceptable" when I have tried to discuss the subject in a reasonable manner and really for me the last straw was having someone who claimed to have set out to be a neutral arbiter to choose to repeat the same baseless allegations made by disruptive editors who are using wikipedia to advance an agenda. The question about when I would find acceptable to mention San Roque in this article are a loaded question. So Richard "When did you stop beating your wife?" I answered that a lot time ago, when it gives due coverage to a fringe issue. I also object to the bad tempered disusssions, largely prompted by the constant bad faith accusations of censoring or suppressing "the truth". I haven't seen one person come up with a valid policy based reason why the argument I put forward is incorrect. I'd be perfectly willing to listen or be swayed by such argument, what I'm not prepared to accept is to be bludgeoned into accepting an edit by reams of tendentious argument and constant bad faith accusations. My position has hardened solely because no one has thought to advance an argument why I'm wrong or mistaken. Neither do I respond well to editors making demands or threats of admin action. So I expect that my objections which are based upon giving undue prominence to what is a fringe issue for the subject of this article are addressed. I do not wish to see accusation of censorship or claims that we have a consensus, because there isn't one and perfectly valid compromises have been rejected out of hand. A civil POV push is still a POV push and appeasement doesn't work. Justin talk 17:22, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Justin, please stop edit warring and try to gain consensus before you make a change. Many people have given the arguments for the current consensus sentence, mainly that San Roque is very much more noteworthy than many other events in the History section (see above). Yet you seem to ignore the argument and keep making changes which inevitably result in REMOVING San Roque from the article. Mmmmm...

One more thing, please, read this last sentence from you again:

"really for me the last straw was having someone who claimed to have set out to be a neutral arbiter to choose to repeat the same baseless allegations made by disruptive editors who are using wikipedia to advance an agenda. The question about when I would find acceptable to mention San Roque in this article are a loaded question. So Richard "When did you stop beating your wife?" I answered that a lot time ago, when it gives due coverage to a fringe issue. I also object to the bad tempered disusssions, largely prompted by the constant bad faith accusations of censoring or suppressing "the truth"."

and think about your position once more: did you just say that some editors are disruptive and trying to advance an agenda? who are they? and that an arbiter is repeating their baseless allegations? did you call me a "disruptive aditor", bare your "buttocks in my general direction" and call me a "fascist fuckwit", did not apologise and yet complain about "bad tempered discussions" and "bad faith accusations"? This is not the attitude that you were supposed to take after some time offwiki. Please, reconsider. --Imalbornoz (talk) 17:43, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Which goes nowhere toward addressing the point and is utterly focused on the editor not the edit. I called Franco a fascist fuckwit NOT yourself; I see you and Red Hat continue in the same vein of distorting comments. I also draw your attention to Atama's earlier comment about the so-called argument "that San Roque is very much more noteworthy than many other events in the History section " is of itself based on a bad faith presumption of the editor who made it. Oh and regarding the accusation that I didn't apologise, I refer you to my comment of 11th February regretting what I said in the heat of the moment. So it seems you'd rather rehash old bad tempered argument than actually address my comments.

That being the second time of going over old ground, you can either now address the points or the edit is going back in. Justin talk 17:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ooooffff...

"You have single mindedly set out to minimise the legitimacy of the Gibraltar Government and using wikipedia as a propaganda weapon for a Fascist irrdentist dream and wounded macho pride. Don't pretend for one second that it was about improving the article, it never was. You're clever about it, I'll give you that but I don't see any difference between you and that Fascist fuckwit." Justin talk 14:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[5]

This is not the point but it seems you tend to forget what you say (it'd be easier for both of us and everybody else in this talk page if you allowed me to write this kind of clarifications in your talk page).

About the point: the argument that has been repeated MANY times is that San Roque is very much more noteworthy than many other events in the History section (not the History of Gibraltar article, mind you). We found that San Roque had something between 8 times and twice the number of mentions than many other events in the History section (sorry, but I'm tired of repeatedly posting the comparison, you can look for it in the archive). Therefore, if the article is to be consistent, I can't find an argument for the History section to avoid mentioning it (besides Justin's criteria about what is noteworthy and what is not...)

Finally, sorry but I didn't understand a thing about what you seemed to say about Atama and bad faith and so on (what was all that about?). --Imalbornoz (talk) 18:13, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What does that prove, other than I didn't call you a "Fascist Fuckwit"? 3rd comment, so far you've rehashed old arguments, dragged up bad tempered comments from a month ago but still haven't addressed my point. Third time you've brought up remarks I made in the heat of the moment and already apologised for.

To re-iterate even Richard acknowledges that San Roque is a peripheral issue to Gibraltar, you've not addressed the point ever. I suggest you look through the archive to find Atama's point or ask him yourself. San Roque is peripheral to Gibraltar and what we mention in an overview isn't always what we'd mention in a History article. Justin talk 18:22, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: As an uninvolved third party, I would like to state a point per the basics of Wikipedia:Civility & Wikipedia:Apology. Justin_A_Kuntz (talk · contribs) has apologised to Imalbornoz (talk · contribs) over his remarks passed several weeks ago, so my recommendation is that either you keep your peace (because he had apologised, remember?) or Justin takes you to WP:WQA for continual assumption of bad faith. FWIW, I would rather that Imal take the hint, drop the stick and be gracious, then move on towards constructive dialogue for a compromise or common consensus than to be trolling around here for further bad vibes from other parties, including those uninvolved. Patience is wearing thin, even as we speak. Take heed. --Dave ^{♠♣♥♦1185♪♫™} 19:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(PS: Please take your time to read through the below... it will do you much good!)

Justin, if you have an argument other than your own opinion, please let us have it. As I've pointed out, your position that San Roque can be mentioned in the History article not in the main one is just that, a position, not an argument. Richard Keatinge (talk) 19:46, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander Richard, your position is no different and who is to say your opinion is more or less valuable than mine so that you get to impose your preferred solution? That isn't the argument at all, so starting from the position of refusing to aknowledge the argument I'm presenting isn't helpful in the slightest. You have already acknowledged that San Roque is a peripheral issue to Gibraltar. If as you acknowledge it is a peripheral issue, then you're giving it undue prominence in this article. The problem as I see it, is you presented yourself as a supposedly neutral arbiter, then took sides and stopped listening to the arguments. Worse still imposing a non-neutral solution when there was a clear compromise that avoided the issue altogether. Justin talk 21:31, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see an attempt to remove most of the description of the IRA incident as 'not important' - it was a major international incident which happened in Gibraltar. Three terrorists were shot. The ECHR review ruled on a matter that happened in Gibraltar and removing or trivialising it is wrong. --Gibnews (talk) 14:41, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First, don't revert with the comment "rv vandalism" when you know full well it's not. As to the content, most of this material is not about Gibraltar per se. Yes, mention it happened, no, don't go into detail here about the inquest. You have a tendency to treat this page like a teenager does with their MySpace page - "this is a brain dump of everything imaginable about me". While that may please the teenager, it doesn't always make good reading. I'll let the current nonsense blow over before raising this again, but raise it I will. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 22:48, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stop baiting Gibnews Red Hat, not helpful, not helpful at all. Gibnews shouldn't have used that edit summary. Justin talk 22:51, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I feel a positive sense of deja vu, claims of a consensus to be imposed by edit warring to someone's preferred version. I am surprised, not, even though it isn't my preferred version but the compromise first proffered by User:Atama. Justin talk 17:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There isn't a consensus for your version Richard, so stop pretending there is. You're imposing a solution and you're edit warring to impose it. Clearly there is no consensus, so please self-revert and stop pretending there is one. You bulldozed and bullied that edit into the article, that isn't how consensus is achieved. Justin talk 22:46, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing as we've imposed the content that the Government of Gibraltar is not directly responsible for internal security. Then surely to fully inform the readers of this article we should make it plain that the appointment of the judiciary is one of the important parts of the separation of powers from the Government. We should also explain how internal security is controlled, how it isn't imposed from London but is the function of the Gibraltar Police Authority and we should be explaining how it works in practise. At the moment the article is a piss-poor compromise telling half the story and leaving the false impression its controlled from London by the British Government.

Seeing as we mention that foreign representation is also the function of the British Government, we should also mention that the Government of Gibraltar is not entirely passive in this respect and where the British Government doesn't represent its interests it has stepped in, such as representing itself at the UN C24. Justin talk 17:40, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's OK with me to put more detail in the Politics section (as long as it doesn't get too much detail). I think that mentioning some of those issues that you suggest would be OK. --Imalbornoz (talk) 17:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm all for accuracy. Let's have some suggested wording, with appropriate sources please. Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:55, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]